Mistborn vs Jedi   25 members have voted

  1. 1. Who would win in a 1 v 1 fight

  2. 2. 2v2


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This is an argument that I have been having with my brother for a long time, would a mistborn or jedi win in a fight. The mistborn is era 1 and thus has access to atium but not guns/era 2 metals(bendalloy,chronium, ect).

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I put what I did, but I actually think this would depend on the Jedi's and the Mistborn's skill level. If you had Yoda against a newly snapped Mistborn who barely had any training, Yoda would win. But if you had Vin from Hero of Ages against some random Jedi who just passed the trials, then Vin would win.

If you have two equally skilled individuals duking it out, it comes down to luck, random advantages, and the terrain and surroundings. 

Now, what would happen if you had two force sensitive lightsaber-wielding Mistborn pitted against each other... 

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Posted (edited)

The fact of the matter is that Jedi simply outclass Mistborn in every way.

Jedi can push on objects that aren't metal, don't get pushed back if they push on objects bigger than themselves, can move objects in more directions than just away from or towards their center of mass.

Atium won't work against them because Jedi have precognitive abilities, and their abilities still work even against other people who can see the future. Emotional allomancy won't work they are trained to control their emotions. Lightsabers have greater reach than daggers, and are bright and loud weapons so tin and pewter are useless.

Duralumin might be intresting but a steelpush can simply be deflected away from the jedi and the Mistborn just wasted their metal.

On the other hand Mistborn have to fight an opponent who has all of their advantages but none of their weaknesses.

So Jedi win no questions asked.

Edited by Frustration
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1 minute ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

then on the other hand arent lightsaber handles made of metal

Just for future referance, please don't double post(posting twice without someone else postin) You can edit your previous post.

Some of them are metal yes(others are made from special kinds of wood), but even if a Mistborn tried to push on them and assuming that they were metal the Jedi could simply use Darth Thraya's tactic of holding their lightsaber with the force, which would simply result in the mistborn being flung backwards.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The fact of the matter is that Jedi simply outclass Mistborn in every way.

Jedi can push on objects that aren't metal, don't get pushed back if they push on objects bigger than themselves, can move objects in more directions than just away from or towards their center of mass.

Atium won't work against them because Jedi have precognitive abilities, and their abilities still work even against other people who can see the future. Emotional allomancy won't work they are trained to control their emotions. Lightsabers have greater reach than daggers, and are bright and loud weapons so tin and pewter are useless.

Duralumin might be intresting but a steelpush can simply be deflected away from the jedi and the Mistborn just wasted their metal.

On the other hand Mistborn have to fight an opponent who has all of their advantages but none of their weaknesses.

So Jedi win no questions asked.

I disagree with this. While in theory a jedi's powers completely outclass those of a Mistborn, in practice they really don't. While I agree that jedi like Obi-Wan and Anakin would have a clear advantdage over a Mistborn,  Most jedi during the time of the Clone Wars were nowhere near as powerful as they were. Using the force requires calm and focus, meaning that using the force for telekinesis will take the jedi far more effort than a Mistborn. As far as I know, most jedi's precognition is nowhere near as powerful as Atium, and while it would likely cloud Atium, I believe Atium would cloud it as well, as the Mistborn changes the future they are going to have based on what the jedi does to them.

The final point in a Mistborn's favor is pretty simple: Lightsabers are made of metal. So they can constantly push the lightsaber out of the jedi's hands, thereby forcing said jedi to either repeatedly take the effort to pull it back with the force, (a distraction which will leave them open to attack) or forgo their main weapon. (For the stupid jedi at least).

Edited by Nameless
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4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I disagree with this. While in theory a jedi's powers completely outclass those of a Mistborn, in practice they are much less so. While I agree that jedi like Obi-Wan and Anakin would have a clear advantdage over a Mistborn,  Most jedi during the time of the Clone Wars were nowhere near as powerful as they were. Using the force requires calm and focus, meaning that using the force for telekinesis will take the jedi far more effort than a Mistborn. As far as I know, most jedi's precognition is nowhere near as powerful as Atium, and while it would likely cloud Atium, I believe Atium would cloud it as well, as the Mistborn changes the future they are going to have based on what the jedi does to them.

The force was shifted during the time of the clone wars to favor the dark side, so all the jedi then were far weaker than they should have been.

A Jedi's precognition is not affected by other's precognitionm it's why their battles with the Sith look so choeriographed, Lucas wanted us to see just what it was like when Jedi and Sith went all out at each other with both of them looking at each other's future.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The final point in a Mistborn's favor is pretty simple: Lightsabers are made of metal. So they can constantly push the lightsaber out of the jedi's hands, thereby forcing said jedi to either repeatedly take the effort to pull it back with the force, (a distraction which will leave them open to attack) or forgo their main weapon. (For the stupid jedi at least).

I've adressed that here

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Some of them are metal yes(others are made from special kinds of wood), but even if a Mistborn tried to push on them and assuming that they were metal the Jedi could simply use Darth Thraya's tactic of holding their lightsaber with the force, which would simply result in the mistborn being flung backwards.

 

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The force was shifted during the time of the clone wars to favor the dark side, so all the jedi then were far weaker than they should have been.

A Jedi's precognition is not affected by other's precognitionm it's why their battles with the Sith look so choeriographed, Lucas wanted us to see just what it was like when Jedi and Sith went all out at each other with both of them looking at each other's future.

Well, in that case it won't affect Atium either. Since seeing their future doesn't change their future, Atium works perfectly, meaning the jedi will die extremely quickly as their futuresight is much less clear than Atium.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I've adressed that here

You know there's only one Darth Traya, right? There's a reason that most jedi don't fight like her: They can't.

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Precog Atium should interfere at least a little with Precog Jedi, but If Jedi cannot change the future they see, and Atium lets you, Mistborn can continue it uninterrupted. However, Atium is limited, as you can only have so much at any given time.

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Oops, wrong vote. I think that the Jedi would win in both scenarios.

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Just now, Nameless said:

Well, in that case it won't affect Atium either. Since seeing their future doesn't change their future, Atium works perfectly, meaning the jedi will die extremely quickly as their futuresight is much less clear than Atium.

2 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

Precog Atium should interfere at least a little with Precog Jedi, but If Jedi cannot change the future they see, and Atium lets you, Mistborn can continue it uninterrupted. However, Atium is limited, as you can only have so much at any given time.

Atium is affected by all future sight, the jedi's is not. I fail to see how that changes one of Atium's weaknesses.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

You know there's only one Darth Traya, right? There's a reason that most jedi don't fight like her: They can't.

The posibility still remains, even if difficult, and only applies to jedi with metal lightsaber hilts.

Alternativly they could simply always be pulling it into their hands, which is far easier and has the same effect.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Atium is affected by all future sight, the jedi's is not. I fail to see how that changes one of Atium's weaknesses.

the main problem here is the differences in future sight. Future sight for Atium splits when there are multiple possible results, but from what I've heard about Jedi precognition, it shows a fixed timeline that you cannot change.

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1 minute ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

the main problem here is the differences in future sight. Future sight for Atium splits when there are multiple possible results, but from what I've heard about Jedi precognition, it shows a fixed timeline that you cannot change.

Visions of the far future are that way, but that's more due to fate in the Star Wars universe than the nature of the visons themselves.

However near future visions as force users employ in battle are changing, but unlike Atium they don't cancel out but rather always show what will happen next.

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Just now, Frustration said:

Atium is affected by all future sight, the jedi's is not. I fail to see how that changes one of Atium's weaknesses.

If the jedi's future sight does not affect another jedi's future sight, then that means they do not change their future because of it, or they find some 'best future' that they stick to. If they changed their actions in response to their opponent's actions, the whole thing would turn into Atium. Besides that, I believe Jedi's precognition is more of a danger sense than a vision of the future, at least in combat. So they could split Atium shadows, but they wouldn't make a ton of them. Besides that, there's always the possibility that A-copper blocks jedi futuresight, something we know is possible.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The posibility still remains, even if difficult, and only applies to jedi with metal lightsaber hilts.

Alternativly they could simply always be pulling it into their hands, which is far easier and has the same effect.

It's really not a possibility, at least not if they want to fight skillfully. And as I said, constantly pulling it to their hand would be a major distraction for the jedi.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

If the jedi's future sight does not affect another jedi's future sight, then that means they do not change their future because of it, or they find some 'best future' that they stick to. If they changed their actions in response to their opponent's actions, the whole thing would turn into Atium.

No, it could simply change with their opponents intentions, you can really only intend to do one thing.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Besides that, I believe Jedi's precognition is more of a danger sense than a vision of the future, at least in combat.

Is there any qualitiative difference between sensing danger in the future and seeing it?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Besides that, there's always the possibility that A-copper blocks jedi futuresight, something we know is possible.

Wait what? Where did we get that?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

It's really not a possibility, at least not if they want to fight skillfully. And as I said, constantly pulling it to their hand would be a major distraction for the jedi.

Not really, pulling and pushing on small objects appears to be very easy.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No, it could simply change with their opponents intentions, you can really only intend to do one thing.

So... exactly like Atium? Futuresight that changes constantly depending on your opponent's actions?

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is there any qualitiative difference between sensing danger in the future and seeing it?

Depends on how well you can sense the future.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Wait what? Where did we get that?

Force users can cloud each other's sight, otherwise stuff like Darth Maul's kill on Qui-Gon would never work. Additionally, we know large-scale force visions can be clouded.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really, pulling and pushing on small objects appears to be very easy.

Still takes focus. When has a jedi pulled their lightsaber to themselves while doing something else like fighting actively?

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5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So... exactly like Atium? Futuresight that changes constantly depending on your opponent's actions?

But it doesn't split. When two atium burners go up against each other they see hundreds if not thousands of possible outcomes, a force user would only have the one their opponent was activly going to do.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Force users can cloud each other's sight, otherwise stuff like Darth Maul's kill on Qui-Gon would never work.

Seeing the future doesn't mean anything if you aren't able to capitalize on it. It deson't matter how far you can see if all roads end in failure. Maul was simply a better fighter than Qui-Gon was.

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Additionally, we know large-scale force visions can be clouded.

By the Force. So not something a coppercloud could do.

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Still takes focus. When has a jedi pulled their lightsaber to themselves while doing something else like fighting actively?

Obi-Wan and Anakin turned pulled their lightsabers from General Grevious and were fighting within seconds.

Obi-Wan pulled Qui-Gon's lightsaber to him without being able to see it, and then threw himself over Darht Maul to cut him in half.

Obi-Wan pulled a blaster to him while dangling off the edge of a cliff while Gervious approached him

Yoda and Palpatine threw Senate platofrms at each other while jumping between them.

Dooku threw Obi-Wan across the room while still fighting Anakin.

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Keep in mind, the Force is the Jedi's version of metals/surges, and their lightsabers are their versions of Shardblades/Godmetals. Also, neither of them know the others' powers - they're fighting completely unknown enemies. This means that Mistborn will have their vials and their boxings, and Jedi will be wearing their normal amount of metal.

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Lightsabers have greater reach than daggers, and are bright and loud weapons so tin and pewter are useless.

Pewter's not out. It gives grace and strength and would help with dodging. Tin would be a risk.

Steel and iron can help the Mistborn move in ways the Jedi would never expect, and can the Jedi really block every single coin from a handful that's shoved at them all at once?

Zinc might not be very effective because the Jedi are taught to control their emotions. Riot their emotions and they'll be surprised the first time, and there will be some effect and distraction, though they'll figure it out and deal with it well eventually. Brass however... remember the Lord Ruler's soothing? Remember how Vin could make Straff feel nothing? Soothe their emotions and the Jedi can't do much about it. Soothe everything away and they'll feel empty. The kind of empty that gives them little reason to do anything. The kind of empty sometimes called depressed.

Since the Force is the Jedi's version of metals, burn Copper and it's gone and/or severely dampened. I don't think Bronze would be much help.

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1 minute ago, Tani said:

Keep in mind, the Force is the Jedi's version of metals/surges, and their lightsabers are their versions of Shardblades/Godmetals. Also, neither of them know the others' powers - they're fighting completely unknown enemies. This means that Mistborn will have their vials and their boxings, and Jedi will be wearing their normal amount of metal.

They don't opperature under the same principles however.

1 minute ago, Tani said:

Pewter's not out. It gives grace and strength and would help with dodging.

When your opponent has greater reach than you that doesn't matter unless you are multiple times faster than them.

2 minutes ago, Tani said:

Steel and iron can help the Mistborn move in ways the Jedi would never expect,

They deal with jetpacked individuals, and people who force leap, they won't be too surprised

3 minutes ago, Tani said:

can the Jedi really block every single coin from a handful that's shoved at them all at once?

Yes.

4 minutes ago, Tani said:

Brass however... remember the Lord Ruler's soothing? Remember how Vin could make Straff feel nothing? Soothe their emotions and the Jedi can't do much about it. Soothe everything away and they'll feel empty. The kind of empty that gives them little reason to do anything. The kind of empty sometimes called depressed.

Jedi supress all emotion, doing that would help them.

4 minutes ago, Tani said:

Since the Force is the Jedi's version of metals, burn Copper and it's gone and/or severely dampened.

That's not how copper works, and again the Jedi don't use investiture. And even if they did they have a continual source, not a finite amount.

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23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But it doesn't split. When two atium burners go up against each other they see hundreds if not thousands of possible outcomes, a force user would only have the one their opponent was activly going to do.

So Atium would completely counter force foresight, because it doesn't change based on their opponent's reaction to it. There is no set future in Mistborn, so the force cannot tell a jedi which action the Mistborn is going to take.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Seeing the future doesn't mean anything if you aren't able to capitalize on it. It deson't matter how far you can see if all roads end in failure. Maul was simply a better fighter than Qui-Gon was.

Qui-Gon could've pulled the same trick that Obi-Wan did when he finally killed Maul. He didn't, therefore force foresight can be blocked.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

By the Force. So not something a coppercloud could do.

Burning copper blocks invested detection. I'd say force senses count as investiture to A-copper.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Obi-Wan and Anakin turned pulled their lightsabers from General Grevious and were fighting within seconds.

Obi-Wan pulled Qui-Gon's lightsaber to him without being able to see it, and then threw himself over Darht Maul to cut him in half.

Obi-Wan pulled a blaster to him while dangling off the edge of a cliff while Gervious approached him

Yoda and Palpatine threw Senate platofrms at each other while jumping between them.

Dooku threw Obi-Wan across the room while still fighting Anakin.

Two S-tier jedi weren't actively engaged in combat while pulling their lightsabers towards them. They had a break in the fight were they could take a few seconds to focus. Yoda and Palpatine are the two strongest jedi/sith. And Yoda didn't do any jumping while actively using the force, so far as I remember. And Dooku is 1) a sith, so he doesn't need the focus and calm that a jedi does and 2) did a general force push, not a precision force pull.

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1 minute ago, Nameless said:

So Atium would completely counter force foresight, because it doesn't change based on their opponent's reaction to it. There is no set future in Mistborn, so the force cannot tell a jedi which action the Mistborn is going to take.

What? Atium is rendedred useless by even small amounts of opposing future sight, so it is gone. However the Mistborn still has the intent to do something, and their future will therefore still be readable.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Qui-Gon could've pulled the same trick that Obi-Wan did when he finally killed Maul. He didn't, therefore force foresight can be blocked.

Or he wasn't thinking "Hey, what if I randomly jumped down this disposal shaft right here?" Because most people won't think to try something that dumb.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Burning copper blocks invested detection. I'd say force senses count as investiture to A-copper.

Then Jedi count as invested individuals and force resistant weapons count as investiture resistant, force sensitive future sight blocks atium but is still useable on its own etc. And copperclouds don't block cosmere future sight, why would they be more powerful against a magic system that doesn't even follow the same underlaying principles?

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Two S-tier jedi weren't actively engaged in combat while pulling their lightsabers towards them. They had a break in the fight were they could take a few seconds to focus. Yoda and Palpatine are the two strongest jedi/sith. And Yoda didn't do any jumping while actively using the force, so far as I remember. And Dooku is 1) a sith, so he doesn't need the focus and calm that a jedi does and 2) did a general force push, not a precision force pull.

We don't follow weak jedi, so those are our data points.

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Just now, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

Man this got intense, i was not expecting that

Frustration and Nameless found it and they will argue opposite sides for days.

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1 minute ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

Man this got intense, i was not expecting that

We have a 73 page argument that we're going to start back up in November, this is nothing.

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