Compounding burn rates

[cometaryorbit]

So we know some allomantic metals burn faster than others, and in some cases it seems to be correlated with power (pewter is the fastest burning of the eight 'basic' metals known in the Final Empire, and atium is way faster than that; tin and copper burn very slow) or effect (aluminum/duralumin are incredibly fast burning).

So if a Compounder burns a metalmind is the burn rate the same as burning that metal with regular Allomancy, or is it instead based on the new Feruchemical power/effect?

Eg is Miles' goldmind burning same rate as a regular Gold Misting, or faster since Feruchemical health is a very strong power?

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

25 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

So we know some allomantic metals burn faster than others, and in some cases it seems to be correlated with power (pewter is the fastest burning of the eight 'basic' metals known in the Final Empire, and atium is way faster than that; tin and copper burn very slow) or effect (aluminum/duralumin are incredibly fast burning).

So if a Compounder burns a metalmind is the burn rate the same as burning that metal with regular Allomancy, or is it instead based on the new Feruchemical power/effect?

Eg is Miles' goldmind burning same rate as a regular Gold Misting, or faster since Feruchemical health is a very strong power?

This is an excellent question! If I had to guess, there might be some sort of change, but it is probably minimal, as it's supposed to be a bit op anyway.

[Quantus]

WOB says they are different metals for all practical purposes, so it is certainly possible that they'd burn at rates independent from their Non-charged versions.  In fact, I think we can assume they would always burn slower purely on the principle of it taking more to affect Invested things than non-Invested ones; theya re confirmed to take longer to burn off in the case of Chromium. 

 

 

Quote

 

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm! That is very good information.

However I'm not sure if how Chromium works tells us much about regular burning since it's basically external Aluminum and that burns away all metals at once (not based on normal burn rates).

 

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

25 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm! That is very good information.

However I'm not sure if how Chromium works tells us much about regular burning since it's basically external Aluminum and that burns away all metals at once (not based on normal burn rates).

 

but if the same rules apply for nicrosil, It will help a lot.

[+ShardlessVessel]

50 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm! That is very good information.

However I'm not sure if how Chromium works tells us much about regular burning since it's basically external Aluminum and that burns away all metals at once (not based on normal burn rates).

 

22 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

but if the same rules apply for nicrosil, It will help a lot.

There's still the fact that it's Investiture trying to affect other Investiture. It's always harder to Invest something that has already been Invested by someone else.

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

There's still the fact that it's Investiture trying to affect other Investiture. It's always harder to Invest something that has already been Invested by someone else.

Right, it's the "someone else" part I am questioning here - if you are burning a metalmind that you filled, does Investiture interference apply?

[Quantus]

27 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Right, it's the "someone else" part I am questioning here - if you are burning a metalmind that you filled, does Investiture interference apply?

Yes.  That is a fundamental aspect of the cosmere, and is independent of the Identity based effects that get a pass for Self-target effects.  You still cannot Steel-push on your own metalminds as if they were unInvested, for example.  

[cometaryorbit]

15 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yes.  That is a fundamental aspect of the cosmere, and is independent of the Identity based effects that get a pass for Self-target effects.  You still cannot Steel-push on your own metalminds as if they were unInvested, for example.  

Oh, hmm, I thought that it would be like being able to burn your own metalmind but Vin not being able to burn Sazed's.

The steelpush example makes sense but is that actually confirmed?

There's a WoB that says that Investiture interferes unless there's "a familiar resonance" which is "part of what philosophers call Identity" which might suggest otherwise.

[Duxredux]

Maybe Invested metal burns more slowly, but I don't think that will be the primary factor that determines on how quickly a metalmind burns.

I had assumed that metal burn rate is based on the Investiture needed to create the effect of the ability, though I'm not sure if this has been confirmed. Steel, Iron, and Pewter burn relatively quickly and enable large motion abilities, whereas Tin and Copper can be left to burn for hours. For Feruchemy fueled by Preservation, I would guess the burn rate is associated with the Investiture needed to produce the Feruchemical effect, so a quick guess is that speed, healing, and strength to be fast burners, but memory, wakefulness, and senses to be relatively slower burners. Basically it might follow attributes that are difficult to store, though there wouldn't be the bounds set by overstoring health for example.

Related SA thought

Spoiler

This is kind of similar to the amount of Stormlight it takes to power Lashings compared to Lightweaving, as noted by Secretspren. Getting the effect of one ability just naturally takes more power than another. Metals act like a catalyst (that gets consumed, so not a catalyst, but this example has been used) to allow for Preservation's power to be utilized.

This annotation is also related:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Duxredux
Changed thought.