Gods, Nahel or Hemalurgic?

[Onironte]

Can you transfer through Hemalurgic the investiture of a Dawnshard?
Can you bond a spren to a shard?
If a Radiant Ascends to a Shard, what happens to the spren?

[Dunkum]

1. probably: Hemalurgy is pretty versatile, an Atium spike in particular, so transferring investiture or connection or both should be doable.

2. hard to say. investiture resists investiture so it may nt be possible for a spren to bond to a Shard. moreover it isn't like there would be any benefit to the shard for doing that, they are almost infinitely more powerful than a spren alrady

3. no reason they wouldnt be able to in theory, as long as they were compatible with the shard in question, but as to what happens to the spren, it is hard to guess. depending on the mechanics of the bond it could go any number of ways, some of which could be benign, others of which could be potentially harmful.

[+robardin]

Those are some great questions!

On 6/7/2022 at 8:50 AM, Dunkum said:

1. probably: Hemalurgy is pretty versatile, an Atium spike in particular, so transferring investiture or connection or both should be doable.

2. hard to say. investiture resists investiture so it may nt be possible for a spren to bond to a Shard. moreover it isn't like there would be any benefit to the shard for doing that, they are almost infinitely more powerful than a spren alrady

3. no reason they wouldnt be able to in theory, as long as they were compatible with the shard in question, but as to what happens to the spren, it is hard to guess. depending on the mechanics of the bond it could go any number of ways, some of which could be benign, others of which could be potentially harmful.

#1 - Can holding a Dawnshard be "spiked out" with hemalurgy? I agree the answer seems to be, "Sure, why not?"

We have evidence that holding a Dawnshard (or "being" one) is something that can be given up (Hoid used to be one and isn't one any longer, and didn't have to die to do that), though the Sleepless didn't seem to know how to force or even to instruct Rysn on how to give it up. Which usually implies some kind of Spiritual twiddle or Connection mechanism, both of which hemalurgy can steal (the first as we see with Metalborn powers, the second with WoBs that one could spike out a Nahel bond, which in turn we know is Connection based because Crazy Ishar was poised to steal Dalinar's to the Stormfather).

#2 - Can a Shard (or, a Vessel that has already Ascended to hold a Shard) form a Nahel bond? I think that is more clearly a "no", as bonding a spren requires "cracks" in a soul in a way that that I suspect holding a Shard will already have filled.

#3 - If a person with a Nahel bond Ascends, what happens to the spren? This is more interesting. Aside from the Spiritual aspect of "what happens to the Vessel upon Ascension?" (Like, would it saturate the person's soul to the level of "squeezing out" the spren?), we know that a Shard's Intent can and will eventually overwhelm the Vessel's own personality: "Ati was once a kind and generous man" before becoming Ruin, and Sazed "loathes suffering" but as Harmony, "must allow for the possibility".

But the Ideals involved in a Nahel bond emphasize certain personality traits that align with the spren's cognitive form. What if Kaladin Ascended to Harmony, and could no longer "protect those who cannot protect themselves" because, like Sazed, he "had to allow" for them to suffer? Or if he Ascended to Ruin?

It seems like even if Syl survived Kaladin's Ascension, it's almost certain that the Shard's Intent would supercede any Ideals he had as a Radiant, which would "kill" the bond.

Now you may say that Kaladin couldn't Ascend to Ruin because he wouldn't have the Connection necessary to take it up, but we also saw from Mistborn: Secret History that there are apparently ways to force Connection, that the Ire were planning to use (and Kelsier did instead) to take up Preservation. So we're talking about that kind of scenario, I suppose.

And that also raises the question, how DID Ati take up Ruin if he had been a "kind and generous man"? Because he was "at peace" with death and decay?

Edited June 8, 2022 by robardin

[Onironte]

Thanks @Dunkum and @robardin!

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Onironte

[Dunkum]

8 minutes ago, robardin said:

#3 - If a person with a Nahel bond Ascends, what happens to the spren? This is more interesting. Aside from the Spiritual aspect of "what happens to the Vessel upon Ascension?" (Like, would it saturate the person's soul to the level of "squeezing out" the spren?), we know that a Shard's Intent can and will eventually overwhelm the Vessel's own personality: "Ati was once a kind and generous man" before becoming Ruin, and Sazed "loathes suffering" but as Harmony, "must allow for the possibility".

But the Ideals involved in a Nahel bond emphasize certain personality traits that align with the spren's cognitive form. What if Kaladin Ascended to Harmony, and could no longer "protect those who cannot protect themselves" because, like Sazed, he "had to allow" for them to suffer? Or if he Ascended to Ruin?

It seems like even if Syl survived Kaladin's Ascension, it's almost certain that the Shard's Intent would supercede any Ideals he had as a Radiant, which would "kill" the bond.

yep, also things like:

1. if picking up the shard destroys the vessels physical body, would that have an affect on the spren bond? would it behave like when the KR dies, or would it be different?

2. the nahel bond isn't one way. if a KR picked up a shard, would some of that power flow across it to the spren? what would that do to the spren? would influx of investiture from a different shard be enough to alter the nature of the KR oaths?

[+robardin]

Just now, Dunkum said:

yep, also things like:

1. if picking up the shard destroys the vessels physical body, would that have an affect on the spren bond? would it behave like when the KR dies, or would it be different?

2. the nahel bond isn't one way. if a KR picked up a shard, would some of that power flow across it to the spren? what would that do to the spren? would influx of investiture from a different shard be enough to alter the nature of the KR oaths?

Again, I like where this is going...

#1 - Does the Vessel's body get destroyed? We see a physical body dropped each time a Shard is... Released.

So far only dead bodies because the Vessel was killed, but that's because the only voluntarily released Shard we've seen was given up by Ghost Kelsier, who didn't have a body to drop. Any more. At the time. *cough*

It's theoretically possible that a voluntarily released Shard by a fully living Vessel "with ties to all three Realms" would have that Vessel reappear physically, but expanded Spiritually from the experience. That's the Rashek Model (Lord Ruler), except that his Ascension to Preservation was partial and designed to be temporary (he couldn't have retained  being Preservation even had he wanted to).

#2 - A Radiant spren is, by nature, a concept from the cognitive realm that becomes Invested to the point of sentience. If you change the concept, is it still the same spren?

Well, we do see spren corrupted - excuse me, "enlightened" - by Sja-anat, so that Glys is no longer a "mistspren" but a something-else-spren, but that happened before forming a Nahel bond. And we have a WoB that her doing that to a sapient (Radiant) spren required some kind of willingness on the part of the spren:

Quote

Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

So you're saying, what if picking up a Shard had like a Sja-anat like effect on the spren, with respect to their "concept"? That could happen.

And hey - maybe the spren would be like a "predefined macro" Splinter of that Shard, like a ready made Unmade of Odium!

[Dunkum]

36 minutes ago, robardin said:

#1 - Does the Vessel's body get destroyed? We see a physical body dropped each time a Shard is... Released.

So far only dead bodies because the Vessel was killed, but that's because the only voluntarily released Shard we've seen was given up by Ghost Kelsier, who didn't have a body to drop. Any more. At the time. *cough*

It's theoretically possible that a voluntarily released Shard by a fully living Vessel "with ties to all three Realms" would have that Vessel reappear physically, but expanded Spiritually from the experience. That's the Rashek Model (Lord Ruler), except that his Ascension to Preservation was partial and designed to be temporary (he couldn't have retained  being Preservation even had he wanted to).

I had considered all this, but even if the vessel's body isn't destroyed, per se, I think we can agree that something weird is happening there. because the body definitely disappears from the physical realm in all 3 cases we have seen of a living person picking up a shard. and since part of the point of the bond was allowing the spren sapience/power/form in the physical realm it seems like that could (but doesn't necessarily have to) complicate things.

39 minutes ago, robardin said:

So you're saying, what if picking up a Shard had like a Sja-anat like effect on the spren, with respect to their "concept"? That could happen.

this is along the lines of what I was envisioning. this and/or imbuing the spren with more raw power, so potentially powering up a regular radiant spren to the level of something like the Stormfather.

but also, do the enlightened truthwatcher spren have the same oaths as regular truthwatcher spren? it doesn't seem like they would have to - if they are now fundamentally different from what they used to be, there is no reason that they would have to have the same oaths, but tat the same time, the only other case we have of multiple different spren for the same order, the Bondsmiths, do seem to have the same oaths so maybe they would

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

...do the enlightened truthwatcher spren have the same oaths as regular truthwatcher spren? it doesn't seem like they would have to - if they are now fundamentally different from what they used to be, there is no reason that they would have to have the same oaths, but tat the same time, the only other case we have of multiple different spren for the same order, the Bondsmiths, do seem to have the same oaths so maybe they would

We don't know what any of the TW oaths are, whether normal TW like the Stump, or enlightened mistspren TW like Renarin and Rlain. But we do have a WoB that the latter being "touched" will change things:

Quote

Questioner

Because of Glys' corrupted nature as a spren of Sja-anat, does that mean that Renarin's swearing different Ideals than the mainstream Truthwatcher ideals?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... I'll RAFO that for now. But there will definitely be some differences.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by robardin

[+ShardlessVessel]

On 07/06/2022 at 9:50 AM, Dunkum said:

1. probably: Hemalurgy is pretty versatile, an Atium spike in particular, so transferring investiture or connection or both should be doable.

Neither of those things is stolen by atium, by the way. Nicrosil takes Investiture and duralumin takes Connection. Atium takes the ability to use an Invested Art.

To steal Sand Mastery, you would use an atium spike. To steal a nahel bond, you would use a duralumin spike. To steal Breath, you would use a nicrosil spike. (Relevant WOB)

That said, I'm not certain that you could steal a Dawnshard, given the nature of the thing. A Dawnshard entrenches itself in your spiritweb and dramatically changes it. Even the wording use to describe the process (when you take a Dawnshard, you don't have a Dawnshard, you are a Dawnshard) seems to imply that it completely suffuses the person, melding together rather than just being stuck into their spiritweb. I'm not sure that you could simply rip it off of a person using Hemalurgy.

But assuming it's possible to take a Dawnshard with Hemalurgy, you'd want a large nicrosil spike.

[Dunkum]

45 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

Neither of those things is stolen by atium, by the way. Nicrosil takes Investiture and duralumin takes Connection. Atium takes the ability to use an Invested Art.

To steal Sand Mastery, you would use an atium spike. To steal a nahel bond, you would use a duralumin spike. To steal Breath, you would use a nicrosil spike. (Relevant WOB)

That said, I'm not certain that you could steal a Dawnshard, given the nature of the thing. A Dawnshard entrenches itself in your spiritweb and dramatically changes it. Even the wording use to describe the process (when you take a Dawnshard, you don't have a Dawnshard, you are a Dawnshard) seems to imply that it completely suffuses the person, melding together rather than just being stuck into their spiritweb. I'm not sure that you could simply rip it off of a person using Hemalurgy.

But assuming it's possible to take a Dawnshard with Hemalurgy, you'd want a large nicrosil spike.

possibly you are right. I always read it as being able to steal anything at all, but the WoB you list does seem to imply that it is specific to powers.  on the other hand this WoB, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202-barnes-and-noble-book-club-qa/#e5971 says "Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well." which is more in line with my original interpretation.

[+ShardlessVessel]

1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

possibly you are right. I always read it as being able to steal anything at all, but the WoB you list does seem to imply that it is specific to powers.  on the other hand this WoB, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202-barnes-and-noble-book-club-qa/#e5971 says "Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well." which is more in line with my original interpretation.

In context, he's talking about which allomantic powers can be stolen using atium, which is any of them.

However, it would make sense if atium could steal anything, given that it's Ruin's own metal.