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Kelsier and Vin with knowledge


Stefano

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In your opinion, what would have happened if Vin and Kelsier attacked Kredik Shaw as happens in book 1, but with full knowledge about inquisitors, lord rules powers and weaknesses, and all metals properties (including bendalloy, duralumin etc)?

EDIT: they found out few days earlier, no time to use spikes

Edited by Stefano
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With full knowledge Kelsier doesn''t even attempt it. He knows that Rashek could kill both him and Vin in an eyeblink and isn't going to risk it, at least not with her. So he tries alone, gets killed, Vin tries, and the ending of book one plays out mostly unchanged.

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5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With full knowledge Kelsier doesn''t even attempt it. He knows that Rashek could kill both him and Vin in an eyeblink and isn't going to risk it, at least not with her. So he tries alone, gets killed, Vin tries, and the ending of book one plays out mostly unchanged.

Sure, but Kelsier hasn't really set up his followers among the skaa in force yet, neither has the rebellion attacked the Holstep Garrison (which inspires the skaa).

So when Vin tries later in the book, Luthadel isn't falling apart. So when Sazed and Vin are escaping, Elend and his soldiers don't show up (adding to the confusion and helping to free Vin). Vin does find her mistcloak and vials, but I don't know if she would be able to get out without Elend clearing the way for her. 

Also, Vin wouldn't attack TLR at the end of the book because she would know that Malatium doesn't help her to kill him because the things that it shows are just shadows. 

So my guess is Vin doesn't seek her revenge against TLR until much later and after she learns more about Feruchemy. 

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With full knowledge, Kelsier teams up with Sazed to make something like the Bands of Mourning and matches Rashek Fullborn to Fullborn. However, using his cunning, Kelsier keeps his complete knowledge a secret in ways that manipulate Rashek into using up too much of his metals immediately available for compounding and then overwhelms him. Rashek dies, and Kelsier and company rule over the newly freed Skaa empire, slaughtering nobles along the way.

I can scarcely imagine how this would change events in Well of Ascension, though I have to imagine that Ruin would be able to respond effectively. The overarching plot would probably remain similar.

Edited by Returned
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Full knowledge means they know that removing his bracelets would kill him, and they know that a duralumin enhanced push/pull is able to remove them if they catch him by surprise.

They are the best fighters in scandrial, i guess that they would make it.

Quote

With full knowledge, Kelsier teams up with Sazed to make something like the Bands of Mourning

I added knowledge for few days, because with enough time aviable to prepare spikes and metalminds it would be no match.

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10 minutes ago, Stefano said:

I added knowledge for few days, because with enough time aviable to prepare spikes and metalminds it would be no match.

Compounding works pretty quickly, especially if they can get at least a modest amount of duralumin. A few days should be plenty of time to create something Bands-like, as long as they can source the metals. That might be an issue for some of the most exotic ones (they won't be getting a lot of aluminum or atium on short notice), but in Luthadel I would think they can get quite a lot in a hurry.

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14 minutes ago, Returned said:

Compounding works pretty quickly, especially if they can get at least a modest amount of duralumin. A few days should be plenty of time to create something Bands-like, as long as they can source the metals. That might be an issue for some of the most exotic ones (they won't be getting a lot of aluminum or atium on short notice), but in Luthadel I would think they can get quite a lot in a hurry.

To create the bands you need a fullborn, which Sazed isn't. 

Edited by Stefano
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6 minutes ago, Stefano said:

To create the bands you need a fullborn, which Sazed isn't. 

That's not true. It would take some planning, but if they have full knowledge of the metals and their Allomantic and Feruchemical properties they would know about nicrosil and aluminum. Together those would be enough to kickstart the process.

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10 minutes ago, Returned said:

That's not true. It would take some planning, but if they have full knowledge of the metals and their Allomantic and Feruchemical properties they would know about nicrosil and aluminum. Together those would be enough to kickstart the process.

It would take some time to make the metalminds, and i guess sazed could store identity and investiture, but not supercharge them on the go.

The scenario is simply Vin and Kel attacking Kredik Shaw with some praparation, any kind of coupunding would be easy victory for them.

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1 hour ago, Stefano said:

Full knowledge means they know that removing his bracelets would kill him, and they know that a duralumin enhanced push/pull is able to remove them if they catch him by surprise.

Even duralumin won't be enough.

24 minutes ago, Returned said:

That's not true. It would take some planning, but if they have full knowledge of the metals and their Allomantic and Feruchemical properties they would know about nicrosil and aluminum. Together those would be enough to kickstart the process.

We don't know that actually. And on top of that tehcnology is not advanced enough for them to get nicrosil.

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50 minutes ago, Stefano said:

It would take some time to make the metalminds, and i guess sazed could store identity and investiture, but not supercharge them on the go.

He'd only need to do enough to let Kelsier store Investiture into some nicrosil (and probably aluminum as well) on his own, and then they could compound it to store a lot more. And once you can compound at all the amount of time it takes to fill a metalmind is radically reduced. The reading I take is that time isn't going to be the limiting factor if they have much time to prepare at all. For example they probably aren't going to be able to find duralumin very quickly either, so for that to be an option but not compounding seemed disjointed. Ruling out compounding as an arbitrary limitation seems like what you're after.

A lot depends, I think, on how much we're including in "full knowledge": that would have to include the properties of metals like we can look up on Coppermind, but may or may not cover all of the advanced engineering that goes into creating things like the medallions the Southern Scadrians use.

 

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We don't know that actually. And on top of that tehcnology is not advanced enough for them to get nicrosil.

I suppose that's true. We know that the process to create an unkeyed metalmind seems sound, but the granting of access to Investiture is not shown. It's theorized about, and we see the results in the forms of the medallions and the Bands, but we don't actually know the manufacturing process. If we're limiting full knowledge to what characters we've seen in the books already know they should be able to produce a couple of metalminds which Kelsier and Vin could use to compound. I'd choose some combination of steel, zinc, and gold if I were headed for a fight.

Of course that's all out the window if they can't possibly get their hands on any nicrosil. I'm not a metallurgist and don't know how it's made, so I can't speak to that; I do wonder how the Southern Scadrians sourced it, as their industrial capacity didn't seem very good before the heat medallions. I suppose we'll find out eventually.

In that case I'd imagine they might try chromium and cadmium to occupy and weaken Rashek/the Inquisitors, but would otherwise fight a lot like they did. They mystery around the Lord Ruler's power makes him seem even more insurmountable, to me, than precise knowledge of his incredible powers. But they still made the effort. They were committed.

Edited by Returned
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It defeats the purpose of the question (for now), but I'd argue that they wouldn't have tried to infiltrate Kredik Shaw in the first place, since the purpose of that trip was to try to find out about TLR's weaknesses. They weren't at a stage for a full confrontation yet, since even if they had a way to assassinate TLR, the Great Houses or Steel Ministry would have filled the power vacuum (short of Kelsier effectively becoming a second Lord Ruler as a Fullborn, which I'm not getting into right now). There weren't many good reasons to get into Kredik Shaw, except maybe to try to find the fabled Atium cache to control the Great Houses and the economy. We know how successful that search would have been.

If for whatever reason they needed to break in anyway, I'd guess they would have snuck in the old fashioned way through disguise and stealth without Allomancy to not alert the Inquisitors. Both were skilled at that long before they knew they were Mistborn. Knowing that Inquisitors can pierce Copperclouds solves Kelsier's mystery of how he and Maare were caught the first time, so there was no reason to break in as powerfully and quickly as possible. Kelsier's story of the Survivor and the Eleventh Metal hasn't grown enough for the rebellion to work and even if it had, he can't play the martyr card if no one sees him die and OreSeur can't recover the body.

Knowledge of TLR and Inquisitors changes The Plan dramatically, since even the entire Luthadel Skaa populace can't defeat TLR, so Kelsier goes back to the drawing board and figures out a different way to kill TLR, probably needing Sazed's help as a Ferchemist in one way or another. With full knowledge, they would know that their timetable to dethrone TLR is dependent on the power gathering at the Well of Ascension hidden deep inside Kredik Shaw. From there, we loop around to the original question of what Kelsier and Vin would try if they had to break in and take down TLR and the Inquisitors.

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Depends on what you mean by "full" knowledge.

If Vin had known about mist-burning and her earring, she'd likely have gone in with her earring off and done one mist-fueled super-Pull to remove TLR's bracelets, never bothering with a physical attack.

If she didn't know about those, but did know TLR's full powers and weaknesses... well, that's pretty daunting. Best plan I can think of (excluding spiking herself for various Compounding powers) would be to wait until she could get some duralumin made then eat a very large amount of iron and pewter (waaaay more than vials) and do the super-Pull with that. With enough iron, I *think* that should work (in HoA Vin duralumin Pushes on Inquisitor spikes. TLR's atiumminds might be more Invested, but probably not so much so that burning more metal through duralumin couldn't overcome that.) The weakness here is that TLR might be able to counter it with his own Pull - it wouldn't be totally out of scope power like the Mists.

Another idea would be trying to wipe out TLR's immortality with an atium spearhead in the heart (Atium Hemalurgy to steal his ability to tap f-Atium, killing him just like removing his bracelets). TLR let himself be stabbed by Kelsier, and an atium spearhead might not hint that its something special (due to lack of iron/steel lines). Aluminum Hemalurgy (removes all powers) would be much less likely to work because of that, IMO.

Super Leeching (stomach full of Chromium + Duralumin) might also work, but Chromium wouldn't have been available with era 1 metallurgy.

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They don't need to hide allomantic abilities, since the y would be able to control inquisitors.

For the lord ruler, allomantic pulling is not the only way: you can cut his arms, and with a surprise strike it wouldn't be so impossible (kel keeps him busy with enhanced pulls/pushes, and he is very good with them, vin attaks from behind with enhanced pewter).

I guess that most likley they would lose, but I expect that they might have a chance

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