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Guns on Roshar?


Odiumiumium

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The title i think says it all. Guns on Roshar? How effective would they be against, say, Plate and Blade wielders and what about ordinary soldiers? What fabrials could protect from firearms, and would they be made with fabrials? Anything else? This is probably a really simple question but I’m interested to see some creative thoughts.

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7 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

How effective would they be against, say, Plate and Blade wielders

Plate would block firearms pretty easily, though more technologically advanced higher caliber firearms may crack Plate by sheer blunt impact, so they could be effective.

7 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

ordinary soldiers?

Shoot, kill.

7 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

What fabrials could protect from firearms

Augmenters to make armor more resilient, attractors and/or repellers to change bullet trajectories, Regrowth fabrials for a healing factor.

7 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

would they be made with fabrials?

We know they will - we've seen them (won't say where because Cosmere-wide spoilers) They probably won't ever be firearms, but they will exist. How will they work? Your guess is as good as mine, but here are some possibilities:

Repellers can be used to simulate a railgun; essentially, a steelpushing crossbow. Attractors can pull a bullet down a barrel for similar effect.

Illumination fabrials could be used to project powerful lasers.

Division/Transformation fabrials may be used to create disintegration rays (I'm very unsure about this, but including it anyway).

 Gravitation (which may or not be the same mechanism used by attractor/repeller fabrials) can propel bullets, as we've seen Szeth do with knives.

Finally, use Stormlight itself as a weapon, shooting a concentrated beam of Investiture.

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8 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

Plate would block firearms pretty easily, though more technologically advanced higher caliber firearms may crack Plate by sheer blunt impact, so they could be effective.

I'm not sure that's true. If Roshar's freefall accelleration is 6.86m/s^2, and Kal using a triple lashing (so approx 20.58m/sec) "fell" about 1-2m into Relis and cracked his plate, then it's possible that the "firearms" (depending on bullet mass and speed achieved) would at least crack plate, if not push throughit entirely. If it did breach the plate, it would probably lose so much speed and energy that it would not pierce the other side (if it did pierce the entire body) which could cause even more damage. 

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27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm not sure that's true. If Roshar's freefall accelleration is 6.86m/s^2, and Kal using a triple lashing (so approx 20.58m/sec) "fell" about 1-2m into Relis and cracked his plate, then it's possible that the "firearms" (depending on bullet mass and speed achieved) would at least crack plate, if not push throughit entirely. If it did breach the plate, it would probably lose so much speed and energy that it would not pierce the other side (if it did pierce the entire body) which could cause even more damage. 

Out of curiosity, I grabbed a kinetic energy calculator on the web and did some highly unscientific calculations:

Triple-Lashed Kaladin (estimating 70 kgs at 20 m/s): 14 KJ

.357 Magnum (according to Wikipedia, 8g of mass and 440 m/s muzzle velocity): ~774 J

There's the matter of the .357 concentrating force on a much smaller area, and also that I'm not sure whether Kal should be heavier or lighter than an Earth human, but I don't think it's entirely fair to use Kal body-slamming a Shardbearer as a comparison for the effectiveness of guns. You make a good point, however; I may be severely underestimating firearms.

I don't like the thought that some Scadrian could just travel to Roshar with a Gatling gun and mow down Shardbearers, though..

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2 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I don't like the thought that some Scadrian could just travel to Roshar with a Gatling gun and mow down Shardbearers, though..

Well, I thinkthat living plate and dead plate would also have differences. Also, the amount of stormlight in the gems of dead plate may be a factor (since it should add resiliency - which implies the question "Does plate need multiple hits to crack, not just because of how strong it is but because the light has to be leaking before it will break entirely?").

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1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I'm not sure that's true. If Roshar's freefall accelleration is 6.86m/s^2, and Kal using a triple lashing (so approx 20.58m/sec) "fell" about 1-2m into Relis and cracked his plate, then it's possible that the "firearms" (depending on bullet mass and speed achieved) would at least crack plate, if not push throughit entirely. If it did breach the plate, it would probably lose so much speed and energy that it would not pierce the other side (if it did pierce the entire body) which could cause even more damage. 

Plate would be very good at taking bullets.

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

Plate would resist a bullet well.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

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12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Plate would be very good at taking bullets.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Isn't that what I said?

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

then it's possible that the "firearms" (depending on bullet mass and speed achieved) would at least crack plate, if not push throughit entirely.

"two or three [with a possibiity] of one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment" seems about the same as "would at least crack plate, if not push through entirely" to me.

 

Edited by Treamayne
SPAG
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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Plate would be very good at taking bullets.

On the one hand, I'm amused by "Plate would resist a bullet well." followed by "Wax could break a section of Plate with two or three bullets". Note that the chest is a single section of Plate.

On the other hand, that's actually really good protection - real-world armor plates also only block a couple of shots - especially if it's living Plate with a good reserve of Light to regenerate quickly (or an equivalently improved suit of dead Plate, assuming such a thing is possible).

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4 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

On the one hand, I'm amused by "Plate would resist a bullet well." followed by "Wax could break a section of Plate with two or three bullets". Note that the chest is a single section of Plate.

On the other hand, that's actually really good protection - real-world armor plates also only block a couple of shots - especially if it's living Plate with a good reserve of Light to regenerate quickly (or an equivalently improved suit of dead Plate, assuming such a thing is possible).

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

two or three [with a possibiity] of one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment" seems about the same as "would at least crack plate, if not push through entirely" to me.

What you have to remember is that Wax's bullets speed up after leaving the chamber due to him being a coinshot, so any bullet from him is the equivelent to a much high caliber round from anyone else.

 

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What you have to remember is that Wax's bullets speed up after leaving the chamber due to him being a coinshot, so any bullet from him is the equivelent to a much high caliber round from anyone else.

Understood. I wasn't trying to say Shardplate was ineffectual, I was just trying to point out that it might not be as resilietn as the first response implied. After all, normally armor that is good against sharps and blunts is notoriously bad at pretecting from firearms; and armor good at prtectign against firearms (kevlar) is notoriously bad against sharps and blunts. 

My first response was simply an instincual response (no math) that, for example, if a spear shaft cracked plate (Kaladin breaking Elit's helm), even if it was a Stormlight backed strike; then it seems logical that a bullet would at least crack plate as well.

Just trying to add data to the discussion. 

 

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We don't know a ton about how Shardplate is shaped, which should also make a difference. If it's got lots of planes and curves it might be very difficult to get a straight-on hit, which could diffuse the bullet's energy considerably for most shots.

It's interesting that Plate seems to be very rigid, which could make it less effective at resisting (certain types of) bullets than metal chest plates that were used in the early days of real-world firearms. I wonder if the properties of living Plate could be changed to deal with new threats, sort of like a toned-down version how a Radiant spren can manifest as all kinds of different metal objects.

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1 minute ago, Returned said:

We don't know a ton about how Shardplate is shaped, which should also make a difference. If it's got lots of planes and curves it might be very difficult to get a straight-on hit, which could diffuse the bullet's energy considerably for most shots.

It's interesting that Plate seems to be very rigid, which could make it less effective at resisting (certain types of) bullets than metal chest plates that were used in the early days of real-world firearms. I wonder if the properties of living Plate could be changed to deal with new threats, sort of like a toned-down version how a Radiant spren can manifest as all kinds of different metal objects.

Also deadplate shapes slowly in the ideal of the wearer over time not as fast as living obviously but after a generation shardplate should be great

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The main issue with developing and employing guns on Roshar is that until you get to more modern bullets that have their own contained propellant then you have to deal with the higher oxygen composition of Roshar's atmosphere making explosions and fire way more dangerous. Rosharans are far more likely to develop fabrial guns rather than firearms simply because they would struggle to get through the musket and flintlock stages of gun development.

In regards to efficacy against shardplate, I think we need to consider that shardplate is more likely to deflect a bullet rather than stop a bullet. In one sense, this means shardplate would do rather well against guns. But the other, that bullet is going to go somewhere, which means it likely is going to end up being dangerous to be near a shardbearer when guns are in play. This next part is speculation, but I suspect this also how we synthesize the idea that shardplates are fairly good against guns, yet Wax could break plate with two or three shots. If shardplate works well against bullets because it deflects them, then it might be reasonable to say that when that deflection is prevented, it would be more vulnerable than we might expect (which is not to say useless or even less useful than modern ballistic armor.) The result is that if you can get a precise shot so that the bullet doesn't deflect you might be able to quickly overwhelm the plate. Especially if you are firing with any kind of semi-automatic gun and fire very quickly. Wax has pulled off some absurd shots so he might find it particularly easy to hit a plate just right so as to overcome the deflecting properties.

Edited by HSuperLee
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4 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

The main issue with developing and employing guns on Roshar is that until you get to more modern bullets that have their own contained propellant then you have to deal with the higher oxygen composition of Roshar's atmosphere making explosions and fire way more dangerous. Rosharans are far more likely to develop fabrial guns rather than firearms simply because they would struggle to get through the musket and flintlock stages of gun development.

In regards to efficacy against shardplate, I think we need to consider that shardplate is more likely to deflect a bullet rather than stop a bullet. In one sense, this means shardplate would do rather well against guns. But the other, that bullet is going to go somewhere, which means it likely is going to end up being dangerous to be near a shardbearer when guns are in play. This next part is speculation, but I suspect this also how we synthesize the idea that shardplates are fairly good against guns, yet Wax could break plate with two or three shots. If shardplate works well against bullets because it deflects them, then it might be reasonable to say that when that deflection is prevented, it would be more vulnerable than we might expect (which is not to say useless or even less useful than modern ballistic armor.) The result is that if you can either get a precise shot so that the bullet doesn't deflect you might be able to quickly overwhelm the plate. Especially if you are firing with any kind of semi-automatic gun and fire very quickly. Wax has pulled off some absurd shots so he might find it particularly easy to hit a plate just right so as to overcome the deflecting properties.

i think that says it all about Plate vs guns. 

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Part of me thinks "oh man it would suck if scadrial could come to roshar and end shardbearers because guns..."  another part of me thinks "eh shardblades are 1 hit kill machines that are more efficient than guns at actually killing people and if plate were indestructible against bullets it would be stupid on the other side of the coin."   

As for the WoB I think 1-3 shots is reasonable.  That said... Wax's weapon lineup even with steel pushing is nothing compared to today's options.  Take nearly any round today and put a steel core in it and that should go well beyond what Wax's penetrating potential is.  

We also have to consider that plate options only get better as the magic on roshar grows.  Guns exist in large because the magic on scadial isn't able to keep up anymore.  (Bands and medallion tech likely will change that big time).  

If humans today have bullets capable of piercing tanks then it shouldn't be a surprise if / when scadrial gains the tech to destroy plate easily.  

Edit because it was late as heck last night and brain gave up. 

5th ideal is probably going to do something pretty bananas for radiants in the plate / blade departments too.  If living plate gets to a point where it can repair itself quickly enough that anything other than a 1shot kill can finish off it won't matter how well your bullets pierce armor.  Then you think about that same stormlight healing the radiant inside and even if you do crack the plate open and get a bullet or two into the radiant they can likely heal through it passively while their plate repairs itself for your next rounds.  If we see a non regrowth radiant heal through getting shot through the eye slit, meaning a headshot and a 1 hit kill vs anyone else, it is even more spooky the thought that a bullet breaking through plate really doesn't matter because the radiant beneath will be fine anyway.   

Scadrial does have a chance vs normal shardbearers but Roshars power creep is more out of control than Azeroth's was with the last 15 years of wow expansions.  

The only thing I can forsee working long term in the scadrial vs roshar matchup is harmonium chromium bombs.  You charge harmonium with leeching and then turn that into the bullets you are launching at the radiant it might... might work.  But when the radiants have a bondsmith literally feeding them infinite stormlight I doubt all the leeching in the world won't matter either.   

TLDR: 

Shardplate is a broken OP defense.  It could be vulnerable to guns.   Living plate is is straight hacks and might be over taken by godmetal bullets.  But wait there is more... bondsmith negates even a chromium charged harmonium bomb/ bullet so even leeching the infinite healing, instant kill sword of death weilding juggernauts that are knights radiants is not going to be enough to kill the precious Rosharans because they will have a well overflowing with stormlight surrounding them anyway.  

Until everyone on scadrial is rocking their own bands of mourning the race is superheavily tossed in roshars favor despite what guns can add to the scadrial side of the fight.  

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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The original inspiration for this question was cannons vs plate. However, plate would likely not fare so well against a cannon. But, what about blades? Unlike plate, we know blade to be near indestructible, unless confronted by Nightblood. If a Shardbearer put the flat of their Blade to the cannon ball, and braced  it with their Plate enhanced strength, what would happen? I think that the bearer would be forced backwards immensely, but otherwise survive the cannon shot.i have also thought of using Blades as armor while reading WoK before the introduction of plate, like theoretically collecting enough blades to provide a reasonable protection.

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1 hour ago, Odiumiumium said:

The original inspiration for this question was cannons vs plate. However, plate would likely not fare so well against a cannon. But, what about blades? Unlike plate, we know blade to be near indestructible, unless confronted by Nightblood. If a Shardbearer put the flat of their Blade to the cannon ball, and braced  it with their Plate enhanced strength, what would happen? I think that the bearer would be forced backwards immensely, but otherwise survive the cannon shot.i have also thought of using Blades as armor while reading WoK before the introduction of plate, like theoretically collecting enough blades to provide a reasonable protection.

So pitting a shardbearer against a cannon is an entirely different scenario than pitting one against guns. Sure, the shot might not actually break the blade if blocked by it, but conservation of momentum is still going to kick in, even if the shardbearer tries to brace. For a non-surgebinder, this would without a doubt kill them. Now, with a surgebinder there will be a lot of factors, but I think a cannon is going to do a substantial amount of damage. Yes, they can probably regenerate it with stormlight, but it would take a lot because the amount of internal injuries would be immense and, unless they took the hit just right, they probably wouldn't be in a condition to breathe in more stormlight until they've had a chance to heal a bit (like how Kal couldn't breathe in more light when the Pursuer kept severing his spine.)

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Yeah, it would kill any normal person. I forgot about the insane acceleration that a stunt like that would do. But if the Shardbearer has their arms against a solid wall, that might shatter their arm pieces, arm bones, and possibly the wall, but should leave them relatively alive right? (Someone with a bigger brain and good numbers please do some physics to confirm this?)

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41 minutes ago, Odiumiumium said:

Yeah, it would kill any normal person. I forgot about the insane acceleration that a stunt like that would do. But if the Shardbearer has their arms against a solid wall, that might shatter their arm pieces, arm bones, and possibly the wall, but should leave them relatively alive right? (Someone with a bigger brain and good numbers please do some physics to confirm this?)

Wouldn’t we look at renarin for this one? 
In oathbringer battle of thylen city he got smashed by a giant rock monster. But 

1)healed so fast it didn’t matter 

2) was in good enough shape to fight effectively almost immediately 

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19 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Wouldn’t we look at renarin for this one? 
In oathbringer battle of thylen city he got smashed by a giant rock monster. But 

1)healed so fast it didn’t matter 

2) was in good enough shape to fight effectively almost immediately 

Keep in mind, we don't yet know if that was due to:

  • Radiant heeling
  • Progression/Regrowth (due to being a Truthwatcher)
  • Something about having an Enlightened Spren changing his healing
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13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind, we don't yet know if that was due to:

  • Radiant heeling
  • Progression/Regrowth (due to being a Truthwatcher)
  • Something about having an Enlightened Spren changing his healing

Still something to consider especially sense as far as we know he didn’t even have plate

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3 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Wouldn’t we look at renarin for this one? 
In oathbringer battle of thylen city he got smashed by a giant rock monster. But 

1)healed so fast it didn’t matter 

2) was in good enough shape to fight effectively almost immediately 

yes, it's already been fairly well established that a Radiant of a high enough level would be far more than a match for a firearm, however i was talking more about non-radiant Shardbearers. 

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2 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

yes, it's already been fairly well established that a Radiant of a high enough level would be far more than a match for a firearm, however i was talking more about non-radiant Shardbearers. 

then maybe it better for the nonradiant shardbearer to cut the cannon ball if they can. That way the ball bounces and the energy is dispersed better

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15 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

then maybe it better for the nonradiant shardbearer to cut the cannon ball if they can. That way the ball bounces and the energy is dispersed better

Yeah, but i was thinking that the ball would simply continue on its path with a decent chunk of its energy intact, it just happens to be cut in half

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32 minutes ago, Odiumiumium said:

Yeah, but i was thinking that the ball would simply continue on its path with a decent chunk of its energy intact, it just happens to be cut in half

I think the difference is like hitting water and hitting concrete one moves away after the initial hit and the other stays firm

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