Long Game 86: A Stricken Match

[Mat]

Smh Archer apparently thinks e!me would blatantly try to shut down discussion  Why do that when you can steer it yourself

It was much more the second thing, and mostly in response to TUN talking about filling- I don't see how info like that helps anyone except the elims. I don't particularly care whether or not someone else is going for the action that I want to go for, or exactly what the other roles in play are. Both pieces of information are useful, but more so for the elims imo.

Then again, I tend to do my own thing with roles and actions, so maybe I care less than the average player. But I'd rather talk about something other than roles :P.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Stick.]

17 minutes ago, Archer said:

I believe Elandera misunderstood the way generic abilities work, falsely implying that 50% of people need to send in a Generic Kill order in order for it to go off, when that's actually more like how the Synod kill works. 50% is a relevant number to the generic kill because that's how much of the time it works with a low player count. Currently, it should always work if Kill is an approved action for that Night's list the GM makes up, with a random person's request being selected and used.

The elims I think will definitely go for the kill right? Since it’s essentially a free, anonymous kill. So some of us have to also go for the kill to lower their chances of getting it. Except we’re more likely to hit a villager anyway especially on C1 so it’s probably a lose/lose for us but we can pray to RNGesus 

Mild village reading Steel for rules but…it’s been too long since I’ve played with E!Steel so some caution ig

[Mat]

People always say that we are more likely to hit a villager C1 but I swear in the last 10-15 games an elim has died C1 more often than a villager has. Or at least been awfully close to dying. Now I want to go back and check to see if elims say that more often than villagers :P.

Steel just finding the rules doc right now is NAI, I think. 

[Archer]

I'd argue the elims are most likely to spam Protect to defend themselves from the Generic Kill and to ensure the NK isn't blocked, which would confirm a villager's alignment. This assumes the village is generally inclined towards spamming the Kill to keep it out of their hands. Trying to roleblock the NK is villagers' next best option. I think the elims will be content to double fill and protect so long as we maintain the appearance of mostly going for the options we'd like to keep them away from. 

Steel finding the rules on his own seems villagey to me. If I were evil, I'd worry that that edit looks like I got help from the elim doc. Or if I knew where the rules were the whole time, that'd be an interaction prompt and I wouldn't be so quick to end it. 

[Elandera]

7 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Tbh I feel something similar about Elan asking caution; that’s definitely something a villager says but I gut read it as elim anyway :P.

I have a vague memory of people being bloodthirsty in LG48. It's been long enough, though, that I could be wrong. Still, I stand by my point. 

4 hours ago, Archer said:

It's possible that there's been a heavy distribution of vote manip to compensate though, so I suggest we avoid quoting for today anyway. Realistically, the only place they can hide is among frequent non-voters, so if describes you, feel free to help our potential Copper Ferring out by maintaining their win con.

I don't like this suggestion to not vote. Not voting makes it easier for the elims to control the vote. With the rules (names of voters not being included in the writeup) it makes it way easier to hide as a vote manipulator. Also, role madness means we likely have plenty of manipulations, so the copper won't have that hard of a time hiding.

[Mat]

Copper will have a hard time hiding if people keep quoting other people :).

[Elandera]

50 minutes ago, Archer said:

I believe Elandera misunderstood the way generic abilities work, falsely implying that 50% of people need to send in a Generic Kill order in order for it to go off, when that's actually more like how the Synod kill works. 50% is a relevant number to the generic kill because that's how much of the time it works with a low player count. Currently, it should always work if Kill is an approved action for that Night's list the GM makes up, with a random person's request being selected and used.

Yup. But I didn't misunderstand it in the way you assume I misunderstood it. I missed the "1 order per night" part, and thought that if everyone put in a kill order, each one had a 50% chance of success. 

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Copper will have a hard time hiding if people keep quoting other people :).

Only if the Copper actually chooses to fill this turn, which there's always a possibility they don't for this reason alone.

[Archer]

As I said before, I don't want to assume the distribution has lots of vote manip until we've seen how a round of voting gets altered. I'd missed the no names thing though, so that's an interesting boon. I'm sure it will not at all lead to GM mistakes ever. :D.

Copper choosing not to fill would likely be a direct result of not having enough available cover. As for voting, yeah, I like voting. Highly recommend it for the reasons you stated. But we can do without one vote this round. 

By the way, I appreciate people bringing up lines from the rules because I seem to have missed a lot of details despite my best efforts. 

[StrikerEZ]

*insert comment about needing to reread the rules to figure out what general actions are*

*insert comment suggesting we stop talking about what we should or shouldn’t do for fillcons*

*insert comment saying that doing so just gives the spiked far too much information*

[Mat]

Hey look I agree with Striker for once xD

[Alvron]

TUN, you wouldn't have happened to have been The Unknown Order at an earlier point?  It's been a while since I've played so I'm not sure if you changed your name or are a new (to me) player with a similar name.  I admit it's causing some disjointedness as I keep comparing what you're saying with what I remember about TUO.   

Archer and Elandera, please don't bad mouth the Gods of Luck and Chance, or RNG as the unenlightened like to say.  They are neither fickle nor evil.  They are after all, the only pure unbiased beings in existence. 

As for game related stuff, I am currently a little suspicious of both Araris and The Unknown Novel.  Will wait and see before voting on either of them just yet though.

[Mat]

@Alvron, TUN is indeed TUO, who changed their name to TUA, then to TUN.

Good to have you back for a game!  

[Alvron]

Thank you fellow initiate of the Gods of Luck and Chance.  It is nice to be back however brief it might be.

Since TUN is/was TUO, I'm both more suspicious of them and less for asking about roleless claims.  If they were evil, they would know or greatly suspect that there are no roleless but at same time asking about them just seems like something an elim would bring up to help narrow down the power player lists.  I don't really see a villager wanting to know or care about roleless as that would only help the elims and have no benefit to the village.

[StrikerEZ]

*insert greeting to Alvron*

*insert praises of the RNG gods*

[Araris Valerian]

*insert brilliant attack against Striker for which no defense exists*

[StrikerEZ]

*insert brilliant defense against Araris’s attack, which is almost perfect, yet not quite because Araris’s attack was just too good*

[Mat]

Jeral bit his lip nervously, and a bit harder than he intended to. Under the eyes of his opponents, he refused to wince, which was easy. The drops of blood that sprang from the self-inflicted cut tasted like sweet motivation rather than pain. He tossed some dice, though they weren't his own. Those, unfortunately, had been confiscated. Again.

Roll, roll, roll. A two and a three. Rusts. If he wanted that golden Stick he was going to have to do better than that.

---

That's a real vote. I don't like how Stick mentioned the village's 'unlikelihood of success', so to speak, since in the recent history that has proven to be false, and I also don't agree with the village read on Steel.

[---]

General meta comment, roleless people claiming is just as bad as people who have roles in situations where the roled people want to stay anonymous, as it basically just narrows down to the elims. That's like people going "yeah, synod don't claim, but if you're not in the synod you should claim that btw."

Edited June 1, 2022 by Illwei

[Mat]

Do you have any general game comments?  

Edited June 1, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[---]

General game comment, Striker v, Araris v, TUN v. (EDIT: Mat v, Steel v.)

Strange that my views are so directly opposing Alvron's

Edited June 1, 2022 by Illwei

[JNV]

Hi hi hi sorry for not being on yesteray I was on vacation but now Im here with hoepfully thoughts but before play thoughts rule thoughts 

So theres like a kill and a half a cycle plus the vote so 2.5 dead people every time 13 of us so like 3 evils 10-3 so 3 until dead lets say people dont go for kill so much so just 2 dead people each time 10 3 so 4 but thats not reliable now this means the longshot great things like copper 5 steel 5 pewter 4 are impossible and tin 3 zinc 3 and bronze 3 are longshots which makes sense they are kinda busted

Iron seems great honestly no downsides you should just always go on Steel seems tough for Synod or evils to run with which probably means thers a Synod or evil with it but the payoff is good especially at crunch time when you really need your trusts groups Tin seems good once you have the PM buddy but it kinda makes you a bit usless but if you dont charge right away its not enough to be important unless you really need to know someones role for some reason which kinda seems evil honestly Pewter works better as a protect unless youre evil cause getting 4 charge seems hard unless you start with charge oh yeah I forgot people could start off with it I guess this ones more possible and tin zinc bronze stuff is also more psosbile but criticism still applies Zinc seems kinda evil in general  so save any charges if you have them and maybe charge this turn when less info means less informed votes save up for 3 when some conflict happens I guess Brass seems easy to fill but the effect isnt so important Bronze seems good for keeping kill away from evil Copper seems eh unless you start with lots of charges and its really tough to run with so good luck archivists 

The kill feels like something we justh vae to do to keep it out of evil hands so yeah if you dont really have anything going on then go ahead Open PM feels like something that would really help out tin folk but isnt a great option in compraison maybe do it now considerng fill times Roleblock is guesswork until you find something kinda meh Double fill just seems great except for all those no action fillers go for it Protect is also just great 

Ok now actually things happening in the game 

The Unknown Novels bit does seem kinda hm but not really evil hm just normal hm claiming roleless is just bad for keeping important roles alive Archer not explaining vote is grrrrr but not really hmm Steeldancer finding the rules is just eh not really either way I think Matrim went a little tough on Stick for what is just factually true but understandable and thats like it I think ok night night have fun

[---]

I feel like someone is stealing my identity

[Mat]

I could probably get behind an Alvron exe. What he said about TUN possibly bringing up the roleless isn't really common for elims to do, and never has been as far as I'm aware (extrapolating on what I mean by that a bit- I don't think it's normal for elims to deliberately lie about things to intentionally fish for information, and I also don't think it's normal for elims to fake a derp clear. Those two things aren't exactly the same, but are kind of similar, and in my experience haven't been used all that much. Which isn't to say they wouldn't be effective strategies, just that they're ignored ones). Elims usually just try to play as they would as a villager, and don't spend a lot of time intentionally trying to make themselves look village.

I could be wrong about that particular bit of meta, but as a result it makes me side-eye anyone who tries to push that kind of reasoning on someone else's posts, as it's an easy thing to claim that you think they're doing. It's interesting to me that Alv only mentioned that point ('that point' referring to Alv mentioning that he thought TUN was fishing for info by claiming roleless) after affirming that he could use meta to read TUN, since my v read of TUN for their exact post comes from meta knowledge- I think them claiming roleless in that way fits with their v!meta

On the other hand, that shows actual progression on Alv's part since he could have just voted TUN upfront so /shrug

[---]

I've been playing more often offsite than on, so I can't really weigh in on current meta besides saying that personally I do both intentionally try and derpclear myself (as both alignments) and when i am Elim fight hard to not fall into the pattern of "This is what i would do as a villager"

A little side comment

Spoiler

The whole reasoning of "I would do this as a villager" when you're an Elim is flawed because no matter how much you'd like to tell yourself that "I would do this as a villager" more likely than not you're going to be wrong. Unless you religiously studied your meta, preparing for the performance of a lifetime? Not gonna be the same. TMI does exist and you're always not only going to be skewed towards what the right answer is, but doing so a lot of the time directly goes against your wincon, despite potentially getting people to village read you along the way. You're always going to have the threat of people at the very least linking you to your teammates though, so in the end hellbussing most of the time isn't even worth it.

To say that people "don't do things to make people townread them" is just contradictory if you combine that with "people try and imitate what they'd do as Village" because they are objectively trying to mimic their village game in order to get villagecred.

In the end, trying to imitate actions that you would take if you were playing a village game as an Elim is a pointless task that more often than not should end up with you getting found out more often than directly doing specific things to gain village cred. Imitating specific reactions that are normal of you in relation to specific people is a different story.

Spoiler

That said I do think that Elims are more self couscous/ self aware of being asked about fishing and might not intentionally lie or whatever mat said, but at the same time there are a lot of people who would do it as either alignment

[Steeldancer]

Why... Is anyone reading into anything I've done? 

I didn't read the rules before, cuz I'm lazy. Long evidence should prove that this has always, and always will be the case. 

I couldn't find the rules because the link was a single tiny word in a MASSIVE freaking post. No wonder I wasn't able to find it until my third scouring of the post. 

I should be completely NAI and I have no idea why anyone's trying to read me either way. Feels weird.