HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?

Odium + Honor = Justice, not war

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So... We have had Raboniel and Navani name the new combined light warlight, and that naming convention is unlikely to change. They could however, have an incomplete understanding of it's intent at this time, only revealed at the climax of either SL 5 or 10, with the formation of a new unified shard, who discovers the intent.

I believe that Justice, or perhaps, Judgement Is a more fitting name for a combination of honor and odium. 

It is stated that Odium is dangerous because it is Adonalsium's divine rage, separated from the rules that gave it purpose, and meaning. I think that this is foreshadowing for the end of Stormlight. Honor is clearly about what is right, and odium is about destruction. Together, they might perhaps be the hard hand of justice. The rage of odium, channeled only at the unjust. This could play out interestingly, with perhaps altered skybreakers becoming the most attuned order to this new shard.

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Warlight was named because the rhythm it beats to is the Rhythm of War. The inent was communicated by the rhythm itself so I think that War is the purest intent of Honor + Odium.

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I agree with you in the sense that Honor and Odium combining to War is a horrible idea. It is the exact opposite of the message I want to see. Basically every war we've seen in the series so far has been completely unnecessary bloodshed. The singers only recently regaining their minds and humans not remembering their earlier conflicts gives a unique chance for peace. Look at Kaladin's arc: It has in large part been about how war with the singers is senseless, and how common singers are not their enemies. That is a reason for his battle fatigue and I think he will play a large role in forming a peace between the peoples. His 5th ideal will be about seeking peace when possible IMO. It really ties together his singer plotline with the still unresolved philosophical conflict with his father. Both of these arcs have been there since WoK, and still need some payoff. The result could be that while killing is sometimes necessary, it should be avoided when possible -> seeking peace for Roshar. Leading is a Windrunner attribute and Kaladin is a great leader, so I think that the 5th ideal will almost certainly correspond to a big responsibility like that. Remember that almost nobody reaches the 5th ideal. It has to be something big and unique, like "becoming law" as a Skybreaker. Furthermore, the last two ideals were already about personal growth. Anyway, since I think that is the direction Sanderson is taking, I cannot imagine the Shard of War. In this sense i agree with you. 

But I also do not think that the two combining to Justice is the answer. To see the answer, I think we need to look at Kaladin's arc in RoW: He has great passion and love for those close to him, which should represent the "positive" side of Odium, but he also embodies Honor like nobody else. Remember that even when Odium tries to claim him (most desperate move I've ever seen tbh) Honor's true surge Adhesion still works. In that moment, he in a way already embodies a mix between these two shards. 

I don't know what it would be called, but I think the "true" combination of Honor and Odium, if this is indeed the endgame, would look a lot like Kaladin in RoW. To be honest, I think we only reason some people like the idea of a shard of War is that it would somewhat fit Dalinar's character. But it does not actually make sense in the bigger picture, at least not to me. 

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I feel like a minority given what I've read here and in other threads, but I think War is quite fitting tbh, crossing honor and passion.  

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War is an option, terrible option - it only gives direction for a Odium's hatred which is even worst news for cosmere. It fits Dalinar however but I agree, it still doesn't make sense to end like that. Honor however is not just about what's right, it's more about keeping promises no matter of they're good or bad - at least that's what Odium told us, and looking how Honor was at the end of his life, it fits, but also gives us room for what's right. Kaladin arc is quite fitting for Honor but despite his passions he's lacking that hatred, he has some of it, or had. Justice is an option as it's directing that divine hatred against those who broke their promises. But it still doesn't fits for me that well, but I've no idea what could it be. Unity could be an option - but it's fits basically every combination of Shards and from narrative point of view it fits even better, not only Dalinar's arc but also Kaladin's and even Navani's. Unity is also quite opposite to War - so we would have two natures of the combinations of Honor and Odium combined.

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Posted (edited)

It might be accurate to call it Justice or Judgement.  But lets just say it would be a rather bloody Justice or Judgement.  Which means calling it War seems to fit better.

Edited by nehalem
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I don't know that I would describe honorable hatred as "justice" or "judgement", though reducing Shards to a single word each is definitely too reductive to capture much of what they really are. It's not impossible that the outlook and intent of a new Vessel might combine them in a way like what you're describing, though I'm not sold that it's likely (even if it's not impossible).

Honor, as manifested on Roshar, isn't about what is right, it's about things being bound together by promises and then never breaking those promises. Odium isn't really about destruction (that's more Ruin's thing), though the effects of its actions are often destructive. Justice is usually thought of as something dispassionate: you don't punish someone because you hate them, nor hate them because they deserve punishment; you punish someone because they deserve it or it's right to do it. Justice doesn't really depend on promises in any obvious way, at least not one that occurs to me right now.

However, I do think that you are right to think beyond the nature of the combined Light of Honor and Odium to describe their nature, especially given that we know combining Shards can result in different outcomes (a WoB establishes that Ruin and Preservation could have been Discord instead of Harmony). And I wouldn't say that Honor plus Cultivation would be Tower, even though their combined Lights are Towerlight (though that's probably not named for the rhythm it gives off, but rather the only environment in which it's found). So I don't think that War is necessarily what a combination of Odium and Honor would be, but I think that Justice or Judgement are both more of a stretch.

My bet is that a reconstituted Honor will instead be Unity (or something similar), and will be compelled to re-combine the other Shards. If that's true, then adding in Odium might cause the new Shard to be something like Completion, hating disunity and separation of a whole. That would be a pretty interesting counterpart to Autonomy, and would certainly drive conflict between Shards.

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Perhaps the shards of War and Cultivation combine to become Justice, because Justice is supposed to also make people or society as a whole better.

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This thread is making me realize there is another possibility. Divine hatred given context through order and oaths? I'd call that Wrath.

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Oh I like it, I could definitely see that happening!

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Posted (edited)

My take? I think different contexts of combinations of Shards can create different Intents, or in other words, War isn't the only one they could have gotten. 

Spoiler

For Scadrial, I think it's been thought that a combination of Ruin and Preservation could have turned out to be Discord or something similar rather Harmony. 

I think that Raboniel and Navani got the Rhythm of War because that was the context of their relationship and how they had to modulate the tones together to fuse the Light. They were at war. Justice or judgment wasn't really even a consideration of what was happening at Urithiru, and if that had been the Intent/Rhythm of the combined Light, that would have been unusual. Fusing the Light had to be intentional, I highly doubt you could do what they did on accident.

To an extent, war for a righteous cause, such as protecting the weak, is both a terrible and noble thing. That was the context of humans and Singers together protecting the fallen Radiants as well, sounding the Rhythm of War.

It wouldn't surprise me if Justice, Judgment, or Wrath were also possible results of combining Voidlight and Stormlight, based on the Intent and context of how the Light was combined. 

Edited by Duxredux
clarity
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Posted (edited)

I like the idea of justice, not I think that War is there most likely. I don't like it a lot, but it seems likely.

Mistborn both arcs

Spoiler

Maybe this is a harmony/discord situation where Honor and Odium could make either War or Peace. I do like the idea of them combining to make Peace

 

Edited by Morningtide
Quote, not spoiler
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I saw some conjecture for Odium + Honour = Inquisition or something close to that (maybe Zealotry or Zeal?). This was why Hoid is so ready to burn Roshar down if the wrong shard/shard-combo is about to be let loose 

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The Light name is not the Intent. None of the three Shards' Lights are named after their Intent: Stormlight not Honorlight, Lifelight not Cultivation light, and Voidlight not Odiumlight (or Passionlight).

Tower and Storm aren't even close to Intents.

On 5/15/2022 at 10:57 AM, Duxredux said:

My take? I think different contexts of combinations of Shards can create different Intents, or in other words, War isn't the only one they could have gotten. 

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For Scadrial, I think it's been thought that a combination of Ruin and Preservation could have turned out to be Discord or something similar rather Harmony. 

I think that Raboniel and Navani got the Rhythm of War because that was the context of their relationship and how they had to modulate the tones together to fuse the Light. They were at war. Justice or judgment wasn't really even a consideration of what was happening at Urithiru, and if that had been the Intent/Rhythm of the combined Light, that would have been unusual. Fusing the Light had to be intentional, I highly doubt you could do what they did on accident.

To an extent, war for a righteous cause, such as protecting the weak, is both a terrible and noble

Yeah, I think Honor + Odium came out as  Rhythm of War/Warlight because Honor's and Odiums forces are at war.

If Odium's purest Intent, unfiltered by a Vessel, is hate/rage/conflict (without context) and Honor's purest Intent, unfiltered, is oaths and binding (without concern for what is sworn), I think a pure Honor+Odium Intent could be either Justice (if it includes both strengthening bonds and fury against oathbreakers) or Wrath/Vengeance (if its purely hate/fury directed at oathbreakers).

I feel like it should be the first, since two Shards should give a broader Intent than one.

The purest Intent of Honor +Cultivation might be something like Civilization, incorporating Cultivation of Bonds between people in society, between people and nature (agriculture) and natural law (science/technology).

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