teknopathetic

[Stormlight 5] The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory: The Official Stormfaker's Support Group

91 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I wanted to make a place for people to officially get it down that they believe Gavilar is not always talking to the Stormfather. That is, Gavilar is sometimes or always talking to someone else. That someone else is likely Ishar in my opinion, but other have put forward The Everfather, Nohadon, Melishi, an Unmade, or other as the identity of the imposter. By all means make your case for who you think the Italic Voice might be!
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Also, please feel free to post the important memes a man can say!
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We ain't fallin' for Ishar's manipulations. Who do they think we are, Venli with Ulim?
 

agatha.png

Who's been messing up everything?
It's been Ishar all along
Who's been pulling every stormin' string?
It's been Ishar all along
He's cremsidious
So heraldfidious
That you haven't even noticed
And the pity is
Pity is
Pity, pity, pity, pity
It's too late to reswear any oaths
Now that Chana died all wrong
It's been Ishar
It's been ishar
It's been Ishar all along!
AND I MADE YOU KILL SURGEBINDERS, TOO; MWUAHAHAHAHAHA
 
Edited by teknopathetic
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Posted (edited)

Ishar Star

StormFaker.png

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Unless you can definitely prove me that Ishar could have felt another Herald death (going to Braize death), I won't believe it's him despite having good motivation. In Prelude Kalak did not feel Taln death, and everyone wasn't sure if Kalak is alive, even Ishar, that means Heralds can't feel each other death. Not to mention his mental unstableness for which there is no prove that it is only recently gained, other Heralds words aren't that much trustworthy, knowing how much unstable they are - they might just want to believe that he is still sane.

But Cultivation on the other hand... Gavilar death put everything in motion, sending Dalinar and Taravangian straight to her, and sending Listeners into Oidum's grasp.

But still even if it sounds nice, I believe it is the real Stormfather all along, Sprens can change, he was manifesting to Dalinar as shimmering, he can lie (despite he did not do it almost through the entire prologue), he can lie by omission (like he ever told something important to Dalinar so willingly), and his motive is a even better for making new Herald - preventing his precious Sprens from bonding with humans and risking their life, and he holds the biggest pieces of Honor. Just fits everything. 

I'm still liking the Stormfaker theory though.

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Posted (edited)

On 5/10/2022 at 2:10 AM, alder24 said:

Unless you can definitely prove me that Ishar could have felt another Herald death (going to Braize death), I won't believe it's him despite having good motivation. In Prelude Kalak did not feel Taln death, and everyone wasn't sure if Kalak is alive, even Ishar, that means Heralds can't feel each other death. Not to mention his mental unstableness for which there is no prove that it is only recently gained, other Heralds words aren't that much trustworthy, knowing how much unstable they are - they might just want to believe that he is still sane.

But Cultivation on the other hand... Gavilar death put everything in motion, sending Dalinar and Taravangian straight to her, and sending Listeners into Odium's grasp.

But still even if it sounds nice, I believe it is the real Stormfather all along, Sprens can change, he was manifesting to Dalinar as shimmering, he can lie (despite he did not do it almost through the entire prologue), he can lie by omission (like he ever told something important to Dalinar so willingly), and his motive is a even better for making new Herald - preventing his precious Sprens from bonding with humans and risking their life, and he holds the biggest pieces of Honor. Just fits everything. 

I'm still liking the Stormfaker theory though.

Points in Favor of Ishar:

  • On Foreshadowing
    • The Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Stormfather never much liked Ishar. I think this feeling of distrust is a crumb that leads us to Ishar Piggybacking on the Stormfather's visions and messing around with Honour's intentions. 
    • We have hints dropped that Ishar was lying about the Surgebinders returning. We learn that Ishar likely lied to Nale (who may have the ability to detect lies), and therefor is capable of tricking almost anyone. 
    • We have Ishar introduced in RoW as a threat
    • We have temporarily-sane Ishar directly mention restoring the Oathpact at the end of RoW
       
  • On Gavilar's Inconsistent View on Human Mannerisms
    • Gavilar states that he " wasn't certain if the spren could be said to have human mannerisms. Sometimes, it seemed so—and others, it seemed completely unfathomable. Today, though… That posture turned away, hinted at in the warping of the air. 
      • So Gavilar is sensing some inconsistency here. To me this was the dead giveaway that something was up, especially with the word "posture" 
         
  • On the Insanity of Heralds
    • While the heralds are clearly insane, the heralds do seem to believe that Ishar had somehow remained sane
    • So, a herald themselves would likely say "most" of the heralds are insane
    • We get the entity saying "Immortality, the Stormfather said. It wears on men and women. It weathers them and their minds. Most of the Heralds are insane now—with unnatural ailments of the mind, unique to the circumstances of their ancient natures"
      • There is no reason to think the Stormfather would consider any of the Heralds sane. However, Ishar himself would use a phrase such as this
        • To me, the use of the word "most" is a slip on the Stormfaker's part
           
  • On Immortality
    • The voice seems to be genuinely concerned about the costs of immortality. Would the Stormfather truly have a strong understanding of that kind of loss? Should an unbonded Spren have that understanding?
    • Consider this morose line and imagine if it more suits an eternal by nature cognitive entity like a Spren or a human cognitive entity like a Herald:
      • Everyone you know will be dust by the time you return…  (I did not add the  ... )
        • The stormfather would have no experience with returning to a land and realizing all of your friends have turned to dust over time. Ishar however would know exactly how that feels, and would likely get a bit emotionally upset at considering it again.
    • We also have: Eternal life. A legacy that spanned millennia—because you were there to shepherd it It is not so grand as you think it to be, the spren said. Which gave him pause. 
       
  • On the Ten Fools Motif:
    • Gavilar says that the Heralds staying on Braize and getting tortured "are the ten fools for that...if I cannot die, I will be the greatest king this world has ever known. Why lock my knowledge and leadership away on another world?"
      • But then shortly after when Gavilar says "Who are you", the entity states:
        • "The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It
          • So, grammatically Gavilar says the Herlads are the 10 fools, and the voice holds onto this notion, and when questioned about their identify proceeds to say "I am the biggest fool of them all"
          • There is an earnest and uncomplicated reading of that where we can take this to mean the voice has just admitted to being a herald. If anything, it is a bit hard to consider why the real Stormfather would say something like that...
             
  • On The Font Change
    • With the fool line, there is a font change "The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It"
      • The CAPS sounds exactly like the regular Stormfather we have come to expect. In particular, it sounds like when the Stormfather  told Dalinar about smashing the Everstorm into the Highstorm. The caps-voice is how the Stormfather usually talks both in terms of style (caps for unbonded people) and in terms of tone (i dont care)
      • This, to me, is evidence that the Italics are Ishar and the CAPS ARE THE STORMFATHER
      • We also have Gavilar saying that the Stormfather seemed confused sometimes and that the whole thing was not going as expected. The Italics voice does not seem confused at all IMO. However, the CAPS voice would likely be confused as all hell at whatever was going on.
      • The CAPS voice gives no information and seems to not care at all, which exactly the grumpypants demeanor Dalinar AND Syl have ascribed to the Stormfather. 
        • And the CAPS match the WoR Stormfather in intention. The Stormfather we know was not willing to do a damn thing to prevent the desolation from coming. He was just doing the minimal amount of work Honour obligated for him to do.
    • We also have Gavilar mention that the voice does not manifest the same way all the time: "He looked around the small room, but the Stormfather was invisible today, not appearing as a shimmer as he sometimes did."
      • The shimmer is "sometimes" and not usually. So to me, the shimmer is the Stormfather and the invisible is Ishar. 
    • According to the Coppermind for Stomlight 1-4, "The Stormfather has two different "modes" of speech. He uses small caps when talking to those unbonded to him, or when speaking so that everyone can hear him. He speaks normally when communicating directly with Dalinar after the latter becomes a Bondsmith"
      • So if we believe the Coppermind, Italics is something bonded or close to Gavilar and CAPS is the unbonded Stormfather. As we see both, there appear to be two voices being used. 
      • The entity specifically says Gavilar and it are not bonded, so this cannot be explained by assuming the bond was severed
      • And as well, the italics voice does return after the CAPS event.
    • Dalinar also hears "Unite Them" in his mind, but the Stormfather is unable to detect this voice. This means that it is possible to send a voice to someone near the Stormfather without the Stormfather detecting it. 
       
  • On the Personality
    • With Gavilar, we never once hear the voice "rumble". All the Stormfather ever does with Syl, or Kal, or Dalinar is rumble is grumpiness. The Stormfaker is a lot of things, but he isn't grumpy.
    • Before S5, we have the Stormfather talk to Syl, Kal, and Dalinar. Between those 3 people, we see a clear and consistent personality. 
    • Do we think Syl, Kal, and Dalinar would believe the Stormfather to say things like:
      • That depends, the Stormfather said in his mind, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said.
      • "I regret," the Stormfather said, "the way I have treated you. I should not have been so accommodating. It has made you lazy"
      • You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel…you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find.
      • You are the one I have chosen
      • “You’ve never challenged what I’m doing,” Gavilar said. “I would have thought that returning the Voidbringers would be opposed to your very nature.” Opposition, sometimes, is needed, the Stormfather said. You will need someone to fight, should you take the position I am offering you.
      • And then…she fell. She was too small a being, not strong enough, to uphold an entire people. It all came crashing down, and so some brave men and women—Radiants—did something that had to be done, trapping Mishram in a gemstone to prevent her from destroying all of Roshar. The side effect of that event created the parshmen.
    • But what would Syl believe her father to say? I think Syl would for sure believe:
      • GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It"
    • And as mentioned before, this entity is wistful about immortality, which is not something that fits a spren's personality or the Stormfather's personality as Syl, Kal, or Dalinar would understand it.
      • It is a lot to believe that the Stormfather has been tricking Lasting Integrity, Syl, Kal, and Dalinar. And not only that, but has been doing so consistently between them.
        • Gavilar's experience is the odd one out, and I think Gavilar's should be the suspect one. 
           
  • On the Visions
    • The Real Stormfather famously does next to nothing when it comes to explain the visions to anyone. So, if the entity is Ishar, Ishar doesn't even have to watch Gavilar inside the visions. It took FOREVER before the Stormfather gave any information to Dalinar about what the visons were, so Ishar would not need to be involved there at all.
      • Ishar could have noticed that Gavilar was getting visions from the OG Stormfather and then snuck in when the Highstorm left the area.
    • But, if we want Ishar to be involved in the visions in some way as well, that is easy. These visions are famously easy to hijack. We have:
      • Whatever it is that forces the Stormfather to give the visions to candidates like The Potter and Dalinar. There may be some way to force the system to give you visions. 
      • Lift being able to enter the visions at will for unexplained reasons that might be related to her being a touch more in the Cognative Realm
      • Odium being able to bruit-force his way into the visions
      • The Stormfather being able to bring in multiple people at once
      • The Nohadon vision that doesn't match the other (which means you might be able to fake new visions if you wanted)
         
  • Sensing a Herald Die
    • Ishar is both a Bondsmith AND the Bondsmith that forged the Oathpact. There is no entity on Roshar that we know of that has a stronger connection or understanding of the Oathpact. If Ishar created it, then he may be more aware of its operations than the other heralds. Ishar was also a Bondsmith of sorts on Ashyn, so we don't even need to assume a Spren like the Stormfather was involved in anyway. 
    • Dalinar sees the lines of connection emanating out of Ishar that represent the Oathpact even though Brandon has said the Oathpact is finished. We don't see Dalinar describe Taln or Shallash with bonds eminating out which I find odd. If Ishar made the Oathpact, it is completely within reason that his connection to it would be stronger, kind of like Ishar is the base where all the threads meet. As he is the base or the creator, he would feel a tug in the Oathpact more strongly that anyone else.
    • The Stormfather has no known connection to the Oathpact whatsoever. Not once has the Stormfather ever mentioned being a part of the Oathpact. And again to that point, there is no mention of the Stormfather reacting to the True-Death of Jezrian. Dalinar doesn't hear a scream from the Stormfather or anything like that. If we take our in-text evidence, the Stormfather is in no-way connected to the Heralds and their Oathpact before this Stormlight 5 Prologue.
      Edit: some are talking about the Stormfather being a Sliver now.
    • Dalinar: If we are going to say that the Stormfather can feel the Oathpact, then why do we not see a hint of Dalinar sensing it more? The argument from Storfather-Believers is that the Stormfather would feel it because the Stormfather has absorbed Honour somewhat. But Odium does not say The Stormfather can free Odium, but that it is Dalinar. We also see Dalinar accepting Oaths, so he apparently is able to sense or change some bonds with Radiants. Dalinar likely would have telegraphed the "RAAAARG" that the Italics VOice had felt in SP5. Basied on this, I put forth that this is something Stomfather Believers need to sort out on their side. 

      My Conclusion:
      Ishar is the only known being to have a unique and powerful connection to the Oathpact. Before S5, it would have been a crack theory to think the Stormfather would feel the death of a herald in anyway. However, believing that the forger of the Oathpact would be temporaily rattled by a herald's death is completely within reason. As the Heralds were made BEFORE spren-bonds, there is no reason to assume the Stormfather was involved in anyway. And adding to that, as Ishar was a Bondsmith before coming to Roshar, there are many things we don't know about how Ishar's powers work. 
       
  • On Motivation to Make a New Herald
    • Ishar, after a Bondsmith oath is sworn in RoW, tells Dalinar directly that Ishar wants to reforge the Oathpact. So as far as we have any evidence for, Ishar is the only Cosmere-Aware and powerful entity to openly state that their motivation is to reforge the Oathpact. 
    • Ishar seems to be more sane in this moment, so maybe his mental health has taken a deep nosedive in the past 6 years, but he was able to remember his goal in that moment.
    • Ishar started his Tu'kar Godking madness almost exactly when Gavilar and Chana died, so we have a timeline of motivation and sanity changes that fits perfectly. 
    • Ishar ahs also sworn never to work with a Kolin again, which may cause some issues moving forward and cause Ishar to be more hostile than he should be normally. 
      • EDIT: I think Insane Ishar is taking wont ever work with Dalinar while  in contrast  Sane Ishar is able to see that the potential in Dalinar is worth trying-out
    • And going beyond this, the Heralds have a in-text desire to get off Roshar, so creating neo-heralds to swap out with is a direct and stated goal of the 9 heralds who abandoned the Oathpact.
    • The Stormfather, before Stormlight 5, has never once showed any interest in creating new heralds at all in any way. To say "he is hiding it" or "he changed his mind" is a lot of handwaving in my opinion.
      • The Stormfather in WoR has given up completely. The entity we see in S5 has a plan that it needs to rush through or change dramatically.  If we are to believe the entity is the real Stormfatherm then when the Stormfather crashed the Highstorm into the Everstorm, was that just the Stormfather tricking Dalinar somehow? Why would the Stormfather both be trying to make new Heralds AND destroy the biggest army capable of resisting the Voidbringers? Reconciling WoR with S5 takes too much handwaving for me to buy it. 
    • My Conclusion:
    • Ishar in RoW is the only powerful entity we have that has on-screen stated that they would like to reforge the Oathpact. Before S5, it would be a cracktheory to believe the Stormfather had anything to do with the heralds, while it was textually explicit that ishar thought reforging the Oathpact was a worthwhile endeavor.

       
  •  On Tu'kar
    • For reason's unknown, Ishar decides to head to Tu'kar and declare himself the God-king. 
    • This happens almost exactly after Gavilar's feast and Chana's death. We have to explain why Ishar changed his behaviour almost exactly when Chana and Gavilar die. Everyone ahs to explain this (both Stormfather Believers and Stormfaker Believers) 
    • So we see a change in Ishar's known behavior right when these events occur, so we are able to postulate that he had his motivations changed around that time as well which fits my theory just fine. Even those who don't think Ishar is the Stormfaker do think ishar's behaviour seems to indicate he knew something had happened on the night of Gavilar/Chana's death.
    • Ishar does change his behavior after Chana dies. He heads to Tu'kar and starts the wars there by declaring himself the God King.
      • In my opinion, Ishar went a bit crazy and started believing the lies he had been telling Gavilar, and now Ishar is a complete crazy mess believing he actually is the avatar of the almighty like Gavilar thought he was.
        • Ishar's intended to go to Tu'kar to rush his plan and explore pulling into the cognitive realm, but as Kelek mentions, the mental illness appears to be getting worse with the heralds of late, and Ishar took a HUGE dip in sanity once he started messing about in Tukar
    • And as for Ishar's insanity, who knows what the death of a Herald, be it Chana or the true death of Jezrian, might do to the person who forged the Oathpact. We simply don't know what that might cause to his sanity. 

So, with all this, I feel it is NOT a Cracktheory.  I actually think the Stormfather Believers have way more explaining to do than this reading of the text does. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Points in Favor of Ishar:

  • On Foreshadowing
    • The Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Stormfather never much liked Ishar. I think this feeling of distrust is a crumb that leads us to Ishar Piggybacking on the Stormfather's visions and messing around with Honour's intentions. 
    • We have hints dropped that Ishar was lying about the Surgebinders returning
    • We have Ishar introduced in RoW as a threat
    • We have temporarily-sane Ishar directly mention restoring the Oathpact at the end of RoW
  1. Ishar also has former dealings with Odium, and isn't exactly an example of upright moral character
  2. Ishar is completly crazy,
3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On Gavilar's Inconsistent View on Human Mannerisms

  • Gavilar states that he " wasn't certain if the spren could be said to have human mannerisms. Sometimes, it seemed so—and others, it seemed completely unfathomable. Today, though… That posture turned away, hinted at in the warping of the air. 
    • So Gavilar is sensing some inconsistency here. To me this was the dead giveaway that something was up, especially with the word "posture" 

Even with Dalinar the Stormfather acts like an odd mash up between force and man.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On Immortality

  • The voice seems to be genuinely concerned about the costs of immortality. Would the Stormfather truly have a strong understanding of that kind of loss? Should an unbonded Spren have that understanding?
  • Consider this morose line and imagine if it more suits an eternal by nature cognitive entity like a Spren or a human cognitive entity like a Herald:
    • Everyone you know will be dust by the time you return…  (I did not add the  ... )
      • The stormfather would have no experience with returning to a land and realizing all of your friends have turned to dust over time. Ishar however would know exactly how that feels, and would likely get a bit emotionally upset at considering it again.
  • We also have: Eternal life. A legacy that spanned millennia—because you were there to shepherd it It is not so grand as you think it to be, the spren said. Which gave him pause. 

The Stormfather has had multiple bondsmiths and mentioned that there were some men he genuinly enjoyed, he is more than aware of the cost of immortality.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On the Ten Fools Motif:

  • Gavilar says that the Heralds staying on Braize and getting tortured "are the ten fools for that...if I cannot die, I will be the greatest king this world has ever known. Why lock my knowledge and leadership away on another world?"
    • But then shortly after when Gavilar says "Who are you", the entity states:
      • "The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It
        • So, grammatically Gavilar says the Herlads are the 10 fools, and the voice holds onto this notion, and when questioned about their identify proceeds to say "I am the biggest fool of them all"
        • There is an earnest and uncomplicated reading of that where we can take this to mean the voice has just admitted to being a herald. If anything, it is a bit hard to consider why the real Stormfather would say something like that...

That feels forced.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On the Personality

  • With Gavilar, we never once hear the voice "rumble". All the Stormfather ever does with Syl, or Kal, or Dalinar is rumble is grumpiness. The Stormfaker is a lot of things, but he isn't grumpy.
  • Before S5, we have the Stormfather talk to Syl, Kal, and Dalinar. Between those 3 people, we see a clear and consistent personality. 
  • Do we think Syl, Kal, and Dalinar would believe the Stormfather to say things like:
    • That depends, the Stormfather said in his mind, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said.
    • "I regret," the Stormfather said, "the way I have treated you. I should not have been so accommodating. It has made you lazy"
    • You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel…you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find.
    • You are the one I have chosen
    • “You’ve never challenged what I’m doing,” Gavilar said. “I would have thought that returning the Voidbringers would be opposed to your very nature.” Opposition, sometimes, is needed, the Stormfather said. You will need someone to fight, should you take the position I am offering you.
    • And then…she fell. She was too small a being, not strong enough, to uphold an entire people. It all came crashing down, and so some brave men and women—Radiants—did something that had to be done, trapping Mishram in a gemstone to prevent her from destroying all of Roshar. The side effect of that event created the parshmen.
  • But what would Syl believe her father to say? I think Syl would for sure believe:
    • GOODBYE GAVILAR. I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS TO COME AND I WILL NOT PREVENT It"
  • And as mentioned before, this entity is wistful about immortality, which is not something that fits a spren's personality or the Stormfather's personality as Syl, Kal, or Dalinar would understand it.
    • It is a lot to believe that the Stormfather has been tricking Lasting Integrity, Syl, Kal, and Dalinar. And not only that, but has been doing so consistently between them.
      • Gavilar's experience is the odd one out, and I think Gavilar's should be the suspect one. 

As the bond with Dalinar progresses the Stormfather becomes more contemplative.

Additionally the speaking pattern doesn't match Ishar at all. Where is the bragging, the egotism, the complete and utter belief in his own infalibility?

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On the Visions

  • The Real Stormfather famously does next to nothing when it comes to explain the visions to anyone. So, if the entity is Ishar, Ishar doesn't even have to watch Gavilar inside the visions. It took FOREVER before the Stormfather gave any information to Dalinar about what the visons were, so Ishar would not need to be involved there at all.
    • Ishar could have noticed that Gavilar was getting visions from the OG Stormfather and then snuck in when the Highstorm left the area.
  • But, if we want Ishar to be involved in the visions in some way as well, that is easy. These visions are famously easy to hijack. We have:
    • Whatever it is that forces the Stormfather to give the visions to candidates like The Potter and Dalinar. There may be some way to force the system to give you visions. 
    • Lift being able to enter the visions at will for unexplained reasons that might be related to her being a touch more in the Cognative Realm
    • Odium being able to bruit-force his way into the visions
    • The Stormfather being able to bring in multiple people at once
    • The Nohadon vision that doesn't match the other (which means you might be able to fake new visions if you wanted)

Honor forces the Stormfather to give the visions

Lift can enter the visions but cannot start or end them

Odium cannot start or end the visions, and is you know, a shard.

The Nohadon vision that wasn't even a vision, and at most you could call it a dream based around it.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Sensing a Herald Die

  • Ishar is both a Bondsmith AND the Bondsmith that forged the Oathpact. There is no entity on Roshar that we know of that has a stronger connection or understanding of the Oathpact. If Ishar created it, then he may be more aware of its operations than the other heralds. Ishar was also a Bondsmith of sorts on Ashyn, so we don't even need to assume a Spren like the Stormfather was involved in anyway. 
  • Dalinar sees the lines of connection emanating out of Ishar that represent the Oathpact even though Brandon has said the Oathpact is finished. We don't see Dalinar describe Taln or Shallash with bonds eminating out which I find odd. If Ishar made the Oathpact, it is completely within reason that his connection to it would be stronger, kind of like Ishar is the base where all the threads meet. As he is the base or the creator, he would feel a tug in the Oathpact more strongly that anyone else.
  • The Stormfather has no known connection to the Oathpact whatsoever. Not once has the Stormfather ever mentioned being a part of the Oathpact. And again to that point, there is no mention of the Stormfather reacting to the True-Death of Jezrian. Dalinar doesn't hear a scream from the Stormfather or anything like that. If we take our in-text evidence, the Stormfather is in no-way connected to the Heralds and their Oathpact before this Stormlight 5 Prologue. 

It was Nale who we saw the Oathpact from. And even with his Blade Ishar was unsure if Kalak had died, so why is he suddenly better at feeling the Oathpact without his blade?

The Stormfather has absorbed Tanavast's cognitive shadow so he definatly has access to the Oathpact.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On Motivation to Make a New Herald

  • Ishar, after a Bondsmith oath is sworn in RoW, tells Dalinar directly that Ishar wants to reforge the Oathpact. So as far as we have any evidence for, Ishar is the only Cosmere-Aware and powerful entity to openly state that their motivation is to reforge the Oathpact. 
  • Ishar seems to be more sane in this moment, so maybe his mental health has taken a deep nosedive in the past 6 years, but he was able to remember his goal in that moment.
  • Ishar started his Tu'kar Godking madness almost exactly when Gavilar and Chana died, so we have a timeline of motivation and sanity changes that fits perfectly. 
  • Ishar ahs also sworn never to work with a Kolin again, which may cause some issues moving forward and cause Ishar to be more hostile than he should be normally. 
  • And going beyond this, the Heralds have a in-text desire to get off Roshar, so creating neo-heralds to swap out with is a direct and stated goal of the 9 heralds who abandoned the Oathpact.
  • The Stormfather, before Stormlight 5, has never once showed any interest in creating new heralds at all in any way. To say "he is hiding it" or "he changed his mind" is a lot of handwaving in my opinion.
    • The Stormfather in WoR has given up completely. The entity we see in S5 has a plan that it needs to rush through or change dramatically.  If we are to believe the entity is the real Stormfatherm then when the Stormfather crashed the Highstorm into the Everstorm, was that just the Stormfather tricking Dalinar somehow? Why would the Stormfather both be trying to make new Heralds AND destroy the biggest army capable of resisting the Voidbringers? Reconciling WoR with S5 takes too much handwaving for me to buy it. 
  • My Conclusion:
  • Ishar in RoW is the only powerful entity we have that has on-screen stated that they would like to reforge the Oathpact. Before S5, it would be a cracktheory to believe the Stormfather had anything to do with the heralds, while it was textually explicit that ishar thought reforging the Oathpact was a worthwhile endeavor.

Ishar is crazy, the vast majority of the time he is dead set on becoming Adonalsium, not making new Heralds. None of the other Heralds experience such a dramatic change. In fact Kalak seems better in RoW than he was in the prologue.

The Stormfather has stated multiple times that the Oathpact was shattered, so why waste time fixing what is irrepairibly broken.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On Tu'kar

  • For reason's unknown, Ishar decides to head to Tu'kar and declare himself the God-king. 
  • This happens almost exactly after Gavilar's feast and Chana's death. We have to explain why Ishar changed his behaviour almost exactly when Chana and Gavilar die. 
  • So we see a change in Ishar's known behavior right when these events occur, so we are able to postulate that he had his motivations changed around that time as well which fits my theory just fine. Even those who don't think Ishar is the Stormfaker do think ishar's behaviour seems to indicate he knew something had happened on the night of Gavilar/Chana's death.
  • Ishar does change his behavior after Chana dies. He heads to Tu'kar and starts the wars there by declaring himself the God King.
    • In my opinion, Ishar went a bit crazy and started believing the lies he had been telling Gavilar, and now Ishar is a complete crazy mess believing he actually is the avatar of the almighty like Gavilar thought he was.
      • Ishar's intended to go to Tu'kar to rush his plan and explore pulling into the cognitive realm, but as Kelek mentions, the mental illness appears to be getting worse with the heralds of late, and Ishar took a HUGE dip in sanity once he started messing about in Tukar
  • And as for Ishar's insanity, who knows what the death of a Herald, be it Chana or the true death of Jezrian, might do to the person who forged the Oathpact. We simply don't know what that might cause to his sanity. 

So, with all this, I feel it is NOT a Cracktheory. This is the simplest textual interpretation. I actually think the Stormfather Believers have way more explaining to do than this reading of the text does. 

I see no reason Ishar would be the only Herald to change in behavior.

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Posted (edited)

@Frustration, I know there can always be a skeptical response to any unproven theory, but I think we need to be willing to explore these ideas in order to put forward any theory. Theorycrafting is about connecting many ideas together that individually are only slightly possible but that together become harder to dismiss. I do think there are enough connected ideas to make this worth considering as a whole. If we consider it all together and cant get further, then it isn't a good theory and can be marked as unfruitful. 

I feel this theory is just as robust and defendable as my Chana Davar theory (that was also dismissed in a similar way by many people). Many people just didnt like it, and no matter how many strings i tied together, they were not open to going over the clues in a meaningful way because the individual details were open to skepticism. The evidence in my opinion was worth ample discussion. I guessed it before the  "Taln never broke" WOB because I let myself connect possibilities even though each detail on its own could be dismissed by skepticism. What is harder is to dismiss all the details together as a gestalt.  

The entire point is exploring what there isn't proof of on-page, but to then find patterns that surprisingly hold water when wove together. Each individual point in any theory-craft can be dismissed by "it could this though", but I hope people can look at this all together in order to get a sense of evidence before us. 

So instead, as a whole, do you think there is enough here to hold water? (separate from the specific ambiguity from point to point). Is it sane to start from “Ishar is faking it” and have these details line up? 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Wow, I'm impressed @teknopathetic. It's very well thought and well argumented theory. I like it. Yet it's still not enough for me. I can see holes in it, so let's point them. I've already done a little analysis of Stormfather conversation with Gavilar and how much he actually lied in Prologue discussion, after all Sprens can change no matter how hard they're denying it. Here is the link to it: 

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/?do=findComment&comment=1332580

 

Now let's begin:

I. Ishar's insanity

We don't know anything certain about Ishar before we meet him in RoW. Every piece of information before was given to us by unstable and mad Heralds, mostly Nale and Ash. But they're definitely unreliable source as they're all claiming Ishar is still sane, and each of them adds themselves as sane one too. Nale particularly, after WoR went to Ishar, believing him, went back to hunting in Edgedancer, believing he and Ishar are only sane one, then Everstorm came, he went back to Ishar in OB (said in one of Szeth chapter) still believing in Ishar's wisdom - at that point it was years after assassination of Gavilar and Ishar was established mad by Stormfather in OB "cursing him at night" - Nale did not recognize that maddens in any of their meetings. We don't know when Ash and Kalak visit him last time. Ishar was always respected by all Heralds, recognized as wise and reliable, was guiding them - he created Oathpact, and he came up with idea to abandon it, he gave the idea to Nale to hunt Radients, which has no sense since Radients had been present for thousands of years after Last Desolation and did not cause much trouble (not enough information about False Desolation to include this, all points to BAM spontaneously connection to all Singers without involvement of Radients) - this idea already speaks about Ishar's madness. We cannot rely on Heralds words about Ishar, as they're all mad and believe in their own sanity, and part of their maddens might manifest as extreme believe in Ishar's wisdom and sanity even if there are visible proofs contradicting this. Except for Heralds testimony, we literally have no other source of information about Ishar's sanity before Dalinar actually met him in RoW, at that point he's clearly mad and even earlier in OB when Dalinar received message from him it was also showing Ishar's madness. There is simply no other source of information about Ishar at all, so we don't know when and how his insanity begun - ordering killing all Radients points for dozens of years befor Gavilar assassination.

 

II. Honorblade

Next when did he actually reclaimed his Honorblade? For this theory to works it has to be years before Gavilar assassination, 7-8 years before RoW. But Ishar's words about this points to much later time - last year before RoW. He said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing for presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places arrival of Unmades somewhere in last year before begining of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. Not before Gavilar assassination but long after it. Without it, Ishar would be unable to highjack visions and talk to Gavilar.  

 

III. Oathpact

And still there is his connection to Oathpact like you suggest. However in Dalinar's encounter with Nale he saw only one strong connection between Nale and other Herald - and who was the one remaining loyal to Oathpact for last 4500 years, who alone carried it, was being tortured and was denying the Return through all this years, who alone didn't abandon Oathpact - Taln. That strong line is most likely Taln's one, as he is the only one still connected strongly to Oathpact and did not abandoned it like others did. No other line was shown to be a little stronger that other ones. And also, still no proof for Ishar's ability to feel other Herald death - in Prelude Jezrien said they weren't sure if Kalek survived - that includes Ishar, Kalek also was surprised by the view of the Honorblades sticked into the ground and for a moment thought if all others had felt, he didn't feel Taln death, nor others "being alive". And at that point all of them were still strongly connected to Oathpact and each other - if they could not feel it at that time, then Ishar would not be able to feel it 4500 years later when his connection to Oathpact was almost broken. And without his Honorblade. 

 

IV. Stormfather

Remember, Stormfather is not a regular spren, he's Bondsmith spren, he has full mind capabilities in physical realm without bond, bond changed him but even before bond he was capable of expressing mercy for Eshonai. Even beyond that, he holds the biggest remaining piece of Honor - that changed him, he is not just a spren, he is probably the second most powerful entity on Roshar, only Shards are more powerful than him. His more powerful than Sibling and Nightwatcher. He also creates new Honorsprens. And we know that Oathpact was a vow between Heralds and Honor. If anyone would be able to detect Herald death, it would be Stormfather through Honor's pieces within him. 

 

 

Now let's address your points:

1). Foreshadowing - "We have hints dropped that Ishar was lying about the Surgebinders returning" - either he was lying either he truly believed in his insanity that it was the only option. See point I. above.

 

2). On Gavilar's Inconsistent View on Human Mannerisms - I agree something is itchy here, but it's something that Stormfather is doing also with Dalinar and even Kaladin - OB when Kaladin opposed winds to protect people despite Stormfather unwillingness to spare them, he later guide Kaladin to the Tower as an "apology". With Dalinar we often see SF acting like a an angry storm-child and few moments later expressing complicated human emotions. 

 

3). On the Insanity of Heralds - see point I. above. "There is no reason to think the Stormfather would consider any of the Heralds sane." - SF has no idea at that point in time about Taln current state, thus he cannot claim if he's insane. Moreover SF told Dalinar that he can't see any Herald so would likely have some trouble in finding them to evaluate their sanity. 

 

4). On Immortality - SF lives as long as Heralds and even longer. He had multiple Bondsmiths, and saw death of everyone of them. He lived through Recreance and saw his beloved children dieing - which scared him so much that he refused to create new generation of Honorsprens for centuries. Moreover SF is not some unbonded spren like Syl in the beginning of WoF. See point IV.

 

5). On the Ten Fools Motif - Ten Fools expression is commonly used metaphor in Voring culture and probably even in entire Roshar. It's no surprising that even SF would use it as "The biggest fool of them all" might as well refer to Ten Fools that was just mention - "The biggest fool of the Ten Fools". SF realized how much he was mistaken, how much he miscalculated with Gavilar and maybe even like I written in my post about SA prologue 5 - how his plans to replaced Heralds to avoid Desolation and Sprens bonding with humans just fall apart with Herald death. 

 

6). On The Font Change - can we really take that point from pre alpha release? It might got re-edited. But we don't know the full nature of connection between SF and Gavilar, SF is fully capable of speaking to Dalinar without the bond outside Highstorms (battle of Narak and top of the Tower WoR). We've seen SF talking to Dalinar with bond in OB with caps and italics. SF also manifest as shimmering to Dalinar few times. 

"The shimmer is "sometimes" and not usually. So to me, the shimmer is the Stormfather and the invisible is Ishar. " - Herald death and "biggest fool" was spoken from shimmering so you contradicting yourself here. 

SF mention Dalinar's potential in italics - which would be definitely real SF words. Well actually his entire conversation with Gavilar was spoken in italics and only two sentences were in caps "Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it." and "Your legacy." - however I'm looking at this at wob.coppermind and there is no caps at all, just non-italics sentence hard to see. If you could provide me with source of your transcript I would be grateful (probably newsletter which I should have). Anyway Gavilar and SF might have just stronger connection without Radient bond. 

"But still, once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know." - on the speaking pattern how do you explain dots before "...Herald" - it gives impression that SF is not so sure about that word, or maybe is he using advance speaking method called lying? Or he truly wanted to restore Heralds to prevent humans from bonding Sprens. 

Also the Stormfather way of speaking doesn't fits Ishar at all, even sane-one, but we have only one paragraph of this so not enough to compare. 

 

7). On the Personality - missing rumbling is valid point. However all other is still consistent with our SF. Most of quoted sentences I already analysed in other discussion linked above. And our SF and Gavilar's SF is still willing to withhold information - "Oh, Gavilar. There is so much you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities." and also to share them when appropriately asked.

 

8). On the Visions - see my point II. above. - "And the thing that has miscalculated", "This is my failure as much as yours. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought...your family...", "I will never trust your family again. I made that mistake once. I will not do so again." - all of this explains the differences between Dalinar and SF relations and Gavilar and SF. SF tried different approach with Dalinar which would not make him lazy, avoiding religion, and avoiding speaking with Dalinar entirely. Dalinar gets on his one to not nesesery correct conclusion but it made him work for it.

 

"These visions are famously easy to hijack." - connection, it requires strong connection! Lift has strong connection with Gawx, Odium with Dalinar, Dalinar with Navani and Jasnah, and SF established connection with Fen, Gawx and Venli during Highstorms, during which Lift appeared. Not to mention Dalinar and Nahodon connection which could allow this weird dream-like-vision. For Ishar to be able to do it, he would need to establish connection with Gavilar, and we have no proof that they had ever met before - knowing how bad is Gavilar at recognizing Heralds it's both point for and against as we've never seen any Ishar lookalike near Gavilar at any point. And there is the problem with Honorblade - see again point II. above.

 

9). Sensing a Herald Die - point III and IV - you provide no evidence for it, which for me is the theory breaking point. SF was not part of Oathpact but Honor was, and now SF holds the biggest remains of Honor, which indirectly makes him connected to Oathpact. 

"there is no mention of the Stormfather reacting to the True-Death of Jezrian" - as there was no Dalinar's POW during that, we can't use that as argument. 

"If we take our in-text evidence, the Stormfather is in no-way connected to the Heralds" - but there is in-text evidence that SF have some connection at least to Ishar - "I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god." 

We also don't know anything about Ishar's Ashyn-Bondsmith abilities, how similar they were to Rosharian, if he still had them on Roshar and what he could achieve with them. 

"Dalinar sees the lines of connection emanating out of Ishar that represent the Oathpact even though Brandon has said the Oathpact is finished. We don't see Dalinar describe Taln or Shallash with bonds eminating out which I find odd." - your mistake, it wasn't Ishar, it was Nale during battle with Taravangian's forces. Dalinara did something special there and connected himself with Nale. See point III.

 

10). On Motivation to Make a New Herald - I've already explained how SF could be motivated to create new Heralds to prevent Desolation and most importantly prevent Sprens from bonding with humans. Don't forget that he hates that idea so much that he was willing to kill Kaladin, do everything to stop Syl from returning to Kal after they "break-up" and even kill everyone during battle of Narak, also at first didn't want to accept Dalinar's oaths - he quickly changed his mind. However with Chana death this plan had no future and was a failure - all that left was to gave visions to someone else and prepare for restoration of Radients. There is nothing that would stop Desolation from coming. He just gave up - as it was stated multiple times in books. And because of that he would never mention about this to anyone, as he never mention to Dalinar about giving visions to Gavilar at all, so why mention failed attempt to prevent Desolation and with that Gavilar's flaws?

"Ishar, tells Dalinar directly that Ishar wants to reforge the Oathpact." - not wants, but know how to do it. That's is a big difference and it was preceded by "I know the answers to the problems that torment us". Dalinar asked only for help in retaking Urithiru.

"Ishar started his Tu'kar Godking madness almost exactly when Gavilar and Chana died, so we have a timeline of motivation and sanity changes that fits perfectly. " - timeline fits well, I admitt it, I like that about this theory but we know nothing about Ishar's sanity, even Nale belives that Ishar is still perfectly sane in OB, and Ash in WoR - we know at that point Ishar was already insane. They're not reliable, see point I. above. 

"Ishar ahs also sworn never to work with a Kolin again" - yet he invited Dalinar to Shinovar to work with him. You're once again contradicting yourself.

Only Kalak wants to desperately get out of Roshar, no one else. Nale works with Odium now, Ishar on the other hand want to die or kill everyone - "He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man." - which would be a point for you.

"Why would the Stormfather both be trying to make new Heralds AND destroy the biggest army capable of resisting the Voidbringers?" - it was explained in text, Stormfather had given up upon humanity and didn't believe they stood a chance against Odium. He only gave visions to Dalinar because he was obligated to do it by Honor but wasn't obligated to bond anyone. 

 

11). On Tu'kar - most of this is huge unknown to us. We don't know exactly when Ishar became Tukar's leader. He started the war with Emul the same year Gavilar died, but to do so, he would had to already be in position of power. We don't know also what was his previous behavior, and how was he invested in Roshar's affairs after Last Desolation. We know Heralds intervened before, like during BAM, and shattering Stormseat. And Ishar already ordered killing Radients - which is crazy on it's own.

"And as for Ishar's insanity, who knows what the death of a Herald, be it Chana or the true death of Jezrian, might do to the person who forged the Oathpact. We simply don't know what that might cause to his sanity." - Ishar's response to Dalinar in OB already clearly shows his insanity before Jezrien death, also SF words about him, and if death of Herald increases his insanity, by the time of Last Desolation he would already be insanely insane.

 

Btw Gavilar assassination happen in month of Ishi - point for you to include. Other one is in my other post linked above about SF in OB when he said that Taln finnaly had broken - despite feeling Heard death in SA5 prologue - which means that either SF lied to Dalinar about Taln, or it was not him that had felt Herald death in Prologue 5. 

 

 

Oh boy, that was a lot to write. I've enjoyed it nonetheless. No matter if SF wanted to restore Heralds or just simply lied, his character in Prologue 5 is still consistent with SF we knew from SA 1-4. Sprens can change no matter how hard they're denying it - Notum, Phendorana, and even Sibling are the best examples. 

Personally I still don't think it's not Stormfather, and if it's not him Cultivation seems also like a good choice but it's definitely more of a stretch. With your argumentation Ishar also is more probable. I will definitely remain interested in this theory. With your Chana Davar theory at first I liked it a lot, but I've seen it as highly unlikely, so despite my liking it I was more neutral and sceptical. Well it has changed since Prologue 5 release. 

 

One more thing, me saying that "Stormfather might want to restore Heralds" is not really a valid counterargument for your theory, it's just me expressing my thoughts on Gavilar's SF and how he's different form Dalinar's Stormfather.

Edited by alder24
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Posted (edited)

Firmly with you on team Stormfaker, tekno, glad to see that the momentum for the theory is still going strong in some!  Def going to comb over all your gathered details (which, thank you for doing so so neatly!) and see if I can't find something new later tn.

In keeping with the themed-meme

sf.thumb.PNG.b6e602c1e8764d01019df6d352ddf877.PNG

I recognize the theory does have some potential holes and gaps in info, but this is how some of the forum convos on the topic have felt XD

Edited by Anomander Rake
clarity
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Ive been away in the dark times for a while so I've missed most of the conversation on this and don't really know where the theories stand (or why this one needs it's own support group...)  Ill try to catch up soon, sorry. But in the meantime:

My current belief is that Gavilar was talking to the Stormfather sometimes and the Everstorm in the prologue, and had been consistently lied to by the Everstorm.  I think the Everstorm is trying to bond a Bondsmith, and was piggy-backing the Stormfather's Connection to his potential Bondsmith, hoping to steal Gavilar by guiding him to wildly different Words. The standout details that drive me to that are:

  • The Lying.  The Stormfather hates so much as being misquoted to the point that it's the only time he gets verbose.  
  • The wildly different physical manifestations.  No other Spren has show anything close to that, even when they can shapeshift like Syl.
  • The fact that he actively steers Gavilar away from the real words and towards some other more aggressive sounding ones (much like the difference in the old vs Void Rhythms, feels like).
    • "It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there.” Not even close, the spren said.
    • VS
    • "“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.” The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them."

I think the Everstorm was trying to steal the Stormfather's potential candidate, but decided that tricking somebody that aspired to be a Radiant wasnt the way to go (too much mixing of conflicting ideologies) so he's going to jump to a more pure and properly prepared Odious champion like Moash (or anyone else that has been presented as a Champion candidate). 

 

 

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So is most of the fandom settled on either Team "Lying Stormfather" or "Team Ishar The imposter" as the top two possibilities? 

Ishar seems more likely to me than the Stormfather, or at least has fewer obvious incongruities, but if true it still feels like we are missing a huge piece of the puzzle.  

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

So is most of the fandom settled on either Team "Lying Stormfather" or "Team Ishar The imposter" as the top two possibilities? 

Ishar seems more likely to me than the Stormfather, or at least has fewer obvious incongruities, but if true it still feels like we are missing a huge piece of the puzzle.  

That's about right. I can't say for sure, but my sense is that a slim majority thinks it is the Stormfather, and that he either outright lies, or at least lets Gavilar believe things that are incorrect. That camp writes off the odd behavior/language of the Stormfather in this prologue as being part of a rough alpha draft. Others have suggested that we may be seeing the Stormfather at some times, but Tanavast's cognitive shadow at others.

Of those who lean Stormfaker, I think Ishar is the most frequent suspect. The biggest knock on this theory seems to be the view (based on the Prelude) that the Heralds cannot sense the death of another Herald in real time like this unless it's a permadeath like with Jezrien. The counter is that Ishar, as the forger of the Oathpact might be a special case.

The other suspects that I think I've seen a lot of people suggesting as the true identity of a Stormfaker are Cultivation, or one of the Unmade (Sja-anat in particular comes to mind)

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Posted (edited)

On 5/11/2022 at 10:35 AM, alder24 said:

 

I. Ishar's insanity

We don't know anything certain about Ishar before we meet him in RoW. Every piece of information before was given to us by unstable and mad Heralds, mostly Nale and Ash. But they're definitely unreliable source as they're all claiming Ishar is still sane, and each of them adds themselves as sane one too. Nale particularly, after WoR went to Ishar, believing him, went back to hunting in Edgedancer, believing he and Ishar are only sane one, then Everstorm came, he went back to Ishar in OB (said in one of Szeth chapter) still believing in Ishar's wisdom - at that point it was years after assassination of Gavilar and Ishar was established mad by Stormfather in OB "cursing him at night" - Nale did not recognize that maddens in any of their meetings. We don't know when Ash and Kalak visit him last time. Ishar was always respected by all Heralds, recognized as wise and reliable, was guiding them - he created Oathpact, and he came up with idea to abandon it, he gave the idea to Nale to hunt Radients, which has no sense since Radients had been present for thousands of years after Last Desolation and did not cause much trouble (not enough information about False Desolation to include this, all points to BAM spontaneously connection to all Singers without involvement of Radients) - this idea already speaks about Ishar's madness. We cannot rely on Heralds words about Ishar, as they're all mad and believe in their own sanity, and part of their maddens might manifest as extreme believe in Ishar's wisdom and sanity even if there are visible proofs contradicting this. Except for Heralds testimony, we literally have no other source of information about Ishar's sanity before Dalinar actually met him in RoW, at that point he's clearly mad and even earlier in OB when Dalinar received message from him it was also showing Ishar's madness. There is simply no other source of information about Ishar at all, so we don't know when and how his insanity begun - ordering killing all Radients points for dozens of years befor Gavilar assassination.

 

II. Honorblade

Next when did he actually reclaimed his Honorblade? For this theory to works it has to be years before Gavilar assassination, 7-8 years before RoW. But Ishar's words about this points to much later time - last year before RoW. He said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing for presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places arrival of Unmades somewhere in last year before begining of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. Not before Gavilar assassination but long after it. Without it, Ishar would be unable to highjack visions and talk to Gavilar.  

 

III. Oathpact

And still there is his connection to Oathpact like you suggest. However in Dalinar's encounter with Nale he saw only one strong connection between Nale and other Herald - and who was the one remaining loyal to Oathpact for last 4500 years, who alone carried it, was being tortured and was denying the Return through all this years, who alone didn't abandon Oathpact - Taln. That strong line is most likely Taln's one, as he is the only one still connected strongly to Oathpact and did not abandoned it like others did. No other line was shown to be a little stronger that other ones. And also, still no proof for Ishar's ability to feel other Herald death - in Prelude Jezrien said they weren't sure if Kalek survived - that includes Ishar, Kalek also was surprised by the view of the Honorblades sticked into the ground and for a moment thought if all others had felt, he didn't feel Taln death, nor others "being alive". And at that point all of them were still strongly connected to Oathpact and each other - if they could not feel it at that time, then Ishar would not be able to feel it 4500 years later when his connection to Oathpact was almost broken. And without his Honorblade. 

 

IV. Stormfather

Remember, Stormfather is not a regular spren, he's Bondsmith spren, he has full mind capabilities in physical realm without bond, bond changed him but even before bond he was capable of expressing mercy for Eshonai. Even beyond that, he holds the biggest remaining piece of Honor - that changed him, he is not just a spren, he is probably the second most powerful entity on Roshar, only Shards are more powerful than him. His more powerful than Sibling and Nightwatcher. He also creates new Honorsprens. And we know that Oathpact was a vow between Heralds and Honor. If anyone would be able to detect Herald death, it would be Stormfather through Honor's pieces within him. 

Dalinar's Stormfather.

Thanks for the long response. I might need to break up my reply into a few posts because I just cant sit down for long enough to go through it all =)

1. Ishar's Insanity:
I think the open ambiguity about Ishar's madness timeline plays to the Stormfaker Theory's advantage. Up until recently, the heralds were open to the idea of Ishar being sane. It appears Ishar can be absolutely bonker-balls in Tu'kar but still manage to hold it together when interacting with the other heralds. If this is so, then Ishar could be insane but managing to hold it together when talking to Gavilar as well. I am not willing to believe the heralds are magically unable to see that the Tu'kar God King persona is not full crazy-town banana-pants. There must be more here. 

Whatever is wrong with Ishar, the evidence from WoR and Edgedancer make it seem like Ishar is able to hold down more than one persona depending on who he is interacting with. It seems extremely unlikely that Ishar was acting like the God King of Tu'kar of Dalinar's interaction when Ishar met with Nale, so this to me is evidence that the Ishar story is more complicated than we think. It is also possible that Ishar recently took a downward spiral in  the past few years, or that the Tu'kar madness is yet another bluff. Who knows, but since Ishar raises more questions than closed-doors, this actually helps the Stormfaker theory. 

II. Honorblade
I don't believe Ishar needs an Honourblade to trick Gavilar. In my reading, the Stormfather truly is sending the visions, so we don't need any connection mumbo-jumbo with Honourblades at all

The Stormfaker is

  • Acting as a voice 
  • Sometimes manifesting an image in some way
  • able to see a Seon coming

So to me, these are not incredible feats. If Brandon wanted to make it work, he could choose from: However Ashyn Bondsmithing Worked, Inborn Herald Abilities, Fabrials, Old Magic, Purelake Fishymancing, Off-World Magic, Ancient Artefacts, Cooperative Spren, Basic Connection manipulation, Sleepless Shenanigans, Cognitive Realm Manipulation, or something else. I think there is enough materiel of war to make something work. And as Ishar was a Bondsmith well before coming to Roshar or even needing to interact with the Stormfather, I think he likely would know how to do something like this if he indeed wanted to do it. 

EDIT: As well, we also have some issues with how the Stormfather is managing to do this. While we do see the Stormfather able to do Booming Voices whenever he wants and froma  distance, he doesnt seem to have refined communication skills outside of storms until he has bonded Dalinar. It isn't until the Stormfather bonds Dalinar that we start getting more mental back-and-forth. So why can the Stormfather communicate in italcis without a bond or without there even being a Storm? The Stormfather can BOLD-TALK without a Storm it seems, but italics? Not so much until Dalinar is bonded. 

As well, can the Stormfather see inside buildings before bonding Dalinar? I feel like I was led to believe the Stormfather couldn't (kind of like the mists), but maybe I am wrong here. When we rode with the Stormfather, I dont think he could see into any buildings. And if that is the case, how is the Stormfather seeing a Seon before it enters the room?

III. Oathpact'

Sorry that I misremembered the Nale/Ishar thing. I thought when Ishar fought Dalinar there was a mention of this, but I very well could be wrong. I will go back and check, but for now I trust you are correct and that i misremembered. 

And this is the part of the theory that is the most open to criticism. When Jezrian waits for Kelek, h says "we were not certain if you had survived". However, we dont know the timeline here. The group knew that Taln fell and then, at some point, they abandoned their blades. We don't know when that occurred or if they even waited for Kelek's battle to finish. It seems like Kelek was fighting some clean-up battles AFTER the was had been won (whatever that means). Maybe Ishar left the group before Kelek was done because it really didnt matter to wait for Kelek. I admit this is the largest hole, but as we know nothing of Ishar's timeline or nothing on what information he was sharing, this is still open. It is possible Ishar had hoped someone would die and was ready to forswear the Oathpact as soon as that was accomplished, leaving the others to figure out amongst themselves what happened with Kelek. 

Random thought, but part of me has always been suspicious that Taln died. I low-key have wondered if Ishar did him in. 

IV. The Stormfather

The cannon Stormather's personality is so consistent when talking with Syl, Dalinar, Eshonia, and Kal, and that to me is proof that the Stormfather does have a consistent personality. Why would the Stormfather show kindness to Eshoni if the Stormfather was actually more like the italic-voice with Gavilar? I feel like the italics voice would have said "Sucks to suck, Eshoni". The Stormfather during the events of WoR showed true kindness to Eshoni, and in a time and place that no one but himself would ever know had happened- can we imagine the Italics voice doing that? Are we supposed to believe that because a herald died, that the Italics voice learned the value of altrusitc kindness?

I feel like people are saying that because the Stormfather has MORE Honour in him that this means the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, but nothing about how he acted with Gavilar seemed honourable at all. Wouldn't the Stormfather be even more locked-in to being honourable if he is closer to the intent of Honour these days than before? Doesn't rumbling at being misquoted seem more consistent with being a piece of Honour than operating through lies and deception? What about the Italics-Voice seems like a boon from absorbing the shard of oaths? 

I am all for the Stormfather growing as a person and even being able to change his motivations, but the italics-voice was way way more than a change in motivations; it was a change is complete ethos. To me, the Stormfather was aloof in TWoK, slowly grew to respect Kaladin, slowly grew to respect Eshoni, and decided to trust Dalinar based on what he had recently seen in terms of what Syl and her gang were trying to do (mixed in with some of his connection to Honour's wishes). The Italics-Voice has no place in any of this. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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On 5/10/2022 at 0:42 PM, teknopathetic said:

@Frustration, I know there can always be a skeptical response to any unproven theory, but I think we need to be willing to explore these ideas in order to put forward any theory. Theorycrafting is about connecting many ideas together that individually are only slightly possible but that together become harder to dismiss. I do think there are enough connected ideas to make this worth considering as a whole. If we consider it all together and cant get further, then it isn't a good theory and can be marked as unfruitful. 

I feel this theory is just as robust and defendable as my Chana Davar theory (that was also dismissed in a similar way by many people). Many people just didnt like it, and no matter how many strings i tied together, they were not open to going over the clues in a meaningful way because the individual details were open to skepticism. The evidence in my opinion was worth ample discussion. I guessed it before the  "Taln never broke" WOB because I let myself connect possibilities even though each detail on its own could be dismissed by skepticism. What is harder is to dismiss all the details together as a gestalt.  

The entire point is exploring what there isn't proof of on-page, but to then find patterns that surprisingly hold water when wove together. Each individual point in any theory-craft can be dismissed by "it could this though", but I hope people can look at this all together in order to get a sense of evidence before us. 

So instead, as a whole, do you think there is enough here to hold water? (separate from the specific ambiguity from point to point). Is it sane to start from “Ishar is faking it” and have these details line up? 

Not really, I find theories are best made by taking the evidence and building up to a conclusion, rather than the other way around. I don't feel there is enough evidence for us to even say that it isn't the Stormfather, much less who an impersonater could be.

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

II. Honorblade
I don't believe Ishar needs an Honourblade to trick Gavilar. In my reading, the Stormfather truly is sending the visions, so we don't need any connection mumbo-jumbo with Honourblades at all

The Stormfaker is

  • Acting as a voice 
  • Sometimes manifesting an image in some way
  • able to see a Seon coming

So to me, these are not incredible feats. If Brandon wanted to make it work, he could choose from: However Ashyn Bondsmithing Worked, Inborn Herald Abilities, Fabrials, Old Magic, Purelake Fishymancing, Off-World Magic, Ancient Artefacts, Cooperative Spren, Basic Connection manipulation, Sleepless Shenanigans, Cognitive Realm Manipulation, or something else. I think there is enough materiel of war to make something work. And as Ishar was a Bondsmith well before coming to Roshar or even needing to interact with the Stormfather, I think he likely would know how to do something like this if he indeed wanted to do it. 

He also give Gavilar a vision without there being a highstorm, and ended the vision on command.

11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Random thought, but part of me has always been suspicious that Taln died. I low-key have wondered if Ishar did him in. 

Taln was rather famous among the heralds for dying.

12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

IV. Stormfather

The cannon Stormather's personality is so consistent when talking with Syl, Dalinar, Eshonia, and Kal, and that to me is proof that the Stormfather does have a consistent personality. Why would the Stormfather show kindness to Eshoni if the Stormfather was actually more like the italic-voice with Gavilar? I feel like the italics voice would have said "Sucks to suck, Eshoni". The Stormfather during the events of WoR showed true kindness to Eshoni, and in a time and place that no one but himself would ever know had happened- can we imagine the Italics voice doing that? 

He tried to kill Dalinar, ignored Kaladin's plea to spare people out in the storm, killed another group of people while showing Dalinar the tower.

The Stormfather has no qualms about killing people, or leaving them to die.

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

He tried to kill Dalinar, ignored Kaladin's plea to spare people out in the storm, killed another group of people while showing Dalinar the tower.

The Stormfather has no qualms about killing people, or leaving them to die.

This to me was something more akin to his nature as a storm. People die and the storm goes on, but he wasn't malicious about it. He more felt it was just a thing that happened. The Italics voice seems more aware than what the Stormfather is saying here. 

I have burned and broken cities myself. I can see … yes, I see a difference now. I see pain now. I did not see it before the bond.

Edited by teknopathetic
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1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

This to me was something more akin to his nature as a storm. People die and the storm goes on, but he wasn't malicious about it. He more felt it was just a thing that happened. The Italics voice seems more aware than what the Stormfather is saying here. 
 

I have burned and broken cities myself. I can see … yes, I see a difference now. I see pain now. I did not see it before the bond.

Well he does the same thing here "I have seen what is coming, and I will not prevent it."

It's just a thing that will happen.

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well he does the same thing here "I have seen what is coming, and I will not prevent it."

It's just a thing that will happen.

Yes. I do believe "I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS COMING AND WILL NOT PREVENT IT" is an actual message from the Stormfather because that message is sent in CAPS and not Italics, which is consistent with what I consider true about the Stormfather from books 1-4. 
 

Edited by teknopathetic
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34 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

That's about right. I can't say for sure, but my sense is that a slim majority thinks it is the Stormfather, and that he either outright lies, or at least lets Gavilar believe things that are incorrect. That camp writes off the odd behavior/language of the Stormfather in this prologue as being part of a rough alpha draft. Others have suggested that we may be seeing the Stormfather at some times, but Tanavast's cognitive shadow at others.

Of those who lean Stormfaker, I think Ishar is the most frequent suspect. The biggest knock on this theory seems to be the view (based on the Prelude) that the Heralds cannot sense the death of another Herald in real time like this unless it's a permadeath like with Jezrien. The counter is that Ishar, as the forger of the Oathpact might be a special case.

The other suspects that I think I've seen a lot of people suggesting as the true identity of a Stormfaker are Cultivation, or one of the Unmade (Sja-anat in particular comes to mind)

I cant be the only person to think the spren of Everstorm is the most obvious Fake Stormfather, right?

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Just now, Quantus said:

I cant be the only person to think the spren of Everstorm is the most obvious Fake Stormfather, right?

Considering the Everstorm was locked in the Cognitive realm at the time, and the spren isn't red, I think it's highy unlikely. If the Everstorm even has a spren.

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Yes. I do believe "I HAVE SEEN WHAT IS COMING AND WILL NOT PREVENT IT" is an actual message from the Stormfather because that message is sent in CAPS and not Italics, which is consistent with what I consider true about the Stormfather from books 1-4. 

I didn't notice any difference between the two.

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I cant be the only person to think the spren of Everstorm is the most obvious Fake Stormfather, right?

I am always open to other people being the Stormfaker! I am not going to believe the Italics Voice is the OG Stormfather in this thread, but I could totally be wrong about who/what the Italics-Voice is.

Do you think the Everstorm was trying to make Dark Heralds? Gavilar seems to think he is replacing someone, so that would mean they would do a swap and put in someone evil? And what about the 'giving up' part. The voice didn't seem to want Gavilar giving in to torture immediately. Unless they were going to use Gavilar as a reverse-oathpact to trap Honour-Spren.

I suppose the Everstorm was already pulled towards Roshar and in the Cognitive Realm, so it could be possible. However,  as far as we know  we have not seen any hints of a Spren in that storm. It could be a reveal, but I do think there would have been some hints here or there. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I am all for the Stormfather growing as a person and even being able to change his motivations, but the italics-voice was way way more than a change in motivations; it was a change is complete ethos. To me, the Stormfather was aloof in TWoK, slowly grew to respect Kaladin, slowly grew to respect Eshoni, and decided to trust Dalinar based on what he had recently seen in terms of what Syl and her gang were trying to do (mixed in with some of his connection to Honour's wishes). The Italics-Voice has no place in any of this. 

I'm still not sure which side I come down on, but it does seem really odd that he doesn't "rumble" even once. Almost every time we've seen him speak, he has rumbled - either by speaking in a rumbly way or simply rumbling in response like a grunt. Which kinda suggests to me that Brandon just always has that rumbly quality in mind when he's writing the SF's lines and therefore uses that word frquently. And it's notably absent here

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Considering the Everstorm was locked in the Cognitive realm at the time, and the spren isn't red, I think it's highy unlikely. If the Everstorm even has a spren.

To the Everstorm Spren thing, we dont actually know what the Everstorm is. It appears to be a cutting of the storm that Honour put around Braize. But what was that Storm? Was it ever an entity of its own like the Stormfather was before the creation of the 16 Shards? Was it ever an entity the Singers worshipped before being put on Braize? What was even on Braize before Odium?

We still have a lot to learn about who made this storm, what it is, and what it can do. Maybe it was a real Spren too in some way? We haven't seen hints, but at the same time it might not be crazy to wonder if there are more parallels between the Ever and High storms than we have been shown.

 I will need to see more intersecting coincidences for me to lean into the Everfather theory just yet, but there are many questions concerning the Everstorm in general. I think I tend to think of the Everstorm as new, but the Storm itself is a cutting from a very ancient thing indeed. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Considering the Everstorm was locked in the Cognitive realm at the time, and the spren isn't red, I think it's highy unlikely. If the Everstorm even has a spren.

The actual Storm itself was locked in the Cognitive realm, but that doesnt (necessarily) mean the spren couldnt reach out and or manifest a normal (ie not fully physical) form.  Especially if Im right in that The the Storm and The Tower are godspren equivalents to manifesting fully in the PR as a Godmetal blade.  The Everstorm would then be more along the lines of the far lesser solid, pre-bonded form that Syl was able to pull off.  

And not all Voidspren are Red.  "Some of golden light, others are red shadows." per OB, and I think the red ones are the older ones from when it would have qualified as foreign/Corrupted Investiture, while the Golden ones were created since Odium has more heavily Invested in Roshar enough to integrate into it Tones).  

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I am always open to other people being the Stormfaker! I am not going to believe the Italics Voice is the OG Stormfather in this thread, but I could totally be wrong about who/what the Italics-Voice is.

Do you think the Everstorm was trying to make Dark Heralds? Gavilar seems to think he is replacing someone, so that would mean they would do a swap and put in someone evil? And what about the 'giving up' part. The voice didn't seem to want Gavilar giving in to torture immediately. Unless they were going to use Gavilar as a reverse-oathpact to trap Honour-Spren.

I suppose the Everstorm was already pulled towards Roshar and in the Cognitive Realm, so it could be possible. However,  as far as we know  we have not seen any hints of a Spren in that storm. It could be a reveal, but I do think there would have been some hints here or there. 

Given that he was actively concealing the fact that a real herald was Right There, nah I think he was mostly selling him a fairytale of Immortality, and was after a more ordinary if Enlightened Bondsmith.  Im super curious what the surges of such a thing would look like; not very likely but Im hoping for something like Spiritual Division.  Rayse might have had longer term plans for some herald-equivalent immortal Champion, but suspect he didnt care beyond breeding his own Bondsmith capable of directly attacking the Oathpact.  That would make the "proper reverence" talk probably more about the Everstorm's ego in wanting a Bondsmith that respected the arrangement (even if he'd been kept ignorant, presumably to make him more pliable).   

Edited by Quantus
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3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And not all Voidspren are Red.  "Some of golden light, others are red shadows." per OB, and I think the red ones are the older ones from when it would have qualified as foreign/Corrupted Investiture, while the Golden ones were created since Odium has more heavily Invested in Roshar enough to integrate into it Tones).  

I'm aware, but the Everstorm itself is red.

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3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

That's about right...

well said, thats a great summarization of things imo

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not really, I find theories are best made by taking the evidence and building up to a conclusion, rather than the other way around. I don't feel there is enough evidence for us to even say that it isn't the Stormfather, much less who an impersonater could be

i disagree that this post and the previous stormfaker discussions have been built in reverse as you say. there is evidence, a damn lot of it as one can see from tekno's summary; how heavily you weigh that evidence and its proposed explanations is a matter of personal opinion, but given certain views it is not farfetched to reach the conclusion that there is a potential interloper when everything is looked at together. if it looks like a stormfaker, swims like a stormfaker, and quacks like a stormfaker, there is probably some merit to the stormfaker theory

also, in this particular case, i don't think it is at all strange to make assumptions without a ton of definitive evidence - the Stormfather is off in this prologue man

 

 

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