Iron Ammunition for Wax

[Duxredux]

Why doesn't Wax use iron bullets that he charges with weight for use against Coinshots and Lurchers? Those seem a lot cheaper and easier to produce than the ceramic ones that Ranette has to handmake, and a bullet should be small enough to be completely filled with Investiture really quickly and easily. Feruchemically it makes sense to me, but I don't know enough about gun design and ballistics, to know if there's a good reason that pure Iron isn't used for bullets. Maybe it would be abrasive to the gun barrel or something and Ranette won't keep replacing them. Maybe they just haven't considered it yet. Maybe magically charged bullets seemed too similar to L. E. Modesitt Jr.'s Corean Chronicles?

This isn't so that he makes all of his bullets allomantically resistant, he'll want to be able to Push on some of them himself, but being able to selectively charge them for certain situations could be useful. 

Thoughts?

Edited May 7, 2022 by Duxredux
Added another thought

[The Bookwyrm]

Feruchemically charging the bullets isn't going to do anything to the bullets themselves, at least physically. They aren't going to do any more damage than a normal bullet. However, I can definitely see the advantage in using Invested bullets that have been filled with Feruchemical charge in order to avoid them being pushed or pulled on by Coinshots and Lurchers. 

I am definitely not a gun expert, so when considering the material itself, I don't know how it would work. But magically speaking, I think it's a smart idea.

[StormingTexan]

Iron bullets would not be used in rifled barrels because they would be harder than the the gun barrel and would damage the rifling and could even cause the barrel to explode in the users hands. They can be used in smooth bore weapons like an old cannon (like on a pirate ship). I am sure some of this could be explained away with you know magic but form a practical standpoint iron would not be used in a revolver like they have in this era. 

[Duxredux]

9 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Iron bullets would not be used in rifled barrels because they would be harder than the the gun barrel and would damage the rifling and could even cause the barrel to explode in the users hands. They can be used in smooth bore weapons like an old cannon (like on a pirate ship). I am sure some of this could be explained away with you know magic but form a practical standpoint iron would not be used in a revolver like they have in this era. 

Thanks!  That's exactly the kind of thing I wouldn't know. Are there any firearms without rifling he could use this strategy on, like maybe shotguns? I think Wax has some of those. 

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Thanks!  That's exactly the kind of thing I wouldn't know. Are there any firearms without rifling he could use this strategy on, like maybe shotguns? I think Wax has some of those. 

Sure especially if you use a muzzle load like a blunder buster (you can pretty much use anything in those). I would think you could use a smooth bore shotgun as well with cartridge shot. In this period they would more than likely have paper cartridges and I would think you could use iron pellets since they would be incased. We really just never did this in our world because lead is a better option and we are not worried about alomancy lol. This would be before the pump action shotgun so you are going to have either a single barrel or double barrel breakaway shotgun so two shots before reloading max. At some point they may make a "Judge" analog which is somewhat like Vindication but it allows you to shoot jacketed rounds, shotgun shells and slugs in a revolver format. 

Edit: Actually right after I posted this I wanted to look it up. I am mistaken pump actions were around in the late 1800's and early 1900's so they may have that but I would assume a breakaway would be more prevalent. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by StormingTexan

[Shard Bearer]

The problem would probably be how much weight you would have to store per round. To make a bullet feruchemicly charged enough to not be pushed on, you would have to spend a log time filling the metalmind, and it would still likely be minor effected. When they figure out that the spearhead is the Lord Ruler's metalmind, it is said that the metalmind would have to be ridiculously powerful in order to seem like aluminum. Considering how often Wax uses the weight, this solution would probably just be wasteful. Also, when Wax uses the ceramic bullets, he remarks on how, when the Coinshot pushes on the bullet and the metal part comes off, he thinks he stopped Wax and doesn't try to dodge, making it easy to hit him, where if you shot metalmind bullets, it would just seem like you have an aluminum gun and the Coinshot would get out of the way.

[Treamayne]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:40 AM, Duxredux said:

Why doesn't Wax use iron bullets that he charges with weight for use against Coinshots and Lurchers? Those seem a lot cheaper and easier to produce than the ceramic ones that Ranette has to handmake, and a bullet should be small enough to be completely filled with Investiture really quickly and easily. Feruchemically it makes sense to me, but I don't know enough about gun design and ballistics, to know if there's a good reason that pure Iron isn't used for bullets. Maybe it would be abrasive to the gun barrel or something and Ranette won't keep replacing them. Maybe they just haven't considered it yet. Maybe magically charged bullets seemed too similar to L. E. Modesitt Jr.'s Corean Chronicles?

This isn't so that he makes all of his bullets allomantically resistant, he'll want to be able to Push on some of them himself, but being able to selectively charge them for certain situations could be useful. 

Thoughts?

Are Scadrian's even aware that invested metal is more difficult to push? During TFE, they still had metalminds pierce the body to prevent pushes.

Also, Marsh has no problems pushing Sazed's rings in WoA, so the amount of charge in a metalmind that small doesn't seem like enough to make much difference

[Dellexe]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Are Scadrian's even aware that invested metal is more difficult to push? During TFE, they still had metalminds pierce the body to prevent pushes.

Also, Marsh has no problems pushing Sazed's rings in WoA, so the amount of charge in a metalmind that small doesn't seem like enough to make much difference

They are aware, at least as of Shadows of Self. If I recall correctly, Wax tests a piece of metal they think could be a Spike by seeing how visible it is to his Steelsight and how hard it is to Push. 

[Duxredux]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:38 PM, Shard Bearer said:

The problem would probably be how much weight you would have to store per round. To make a bullet feruchemicly charged enough to not be pushed on, you would have to spend a log time filling the metalmind, and it would still likely be minor effected. When they figure out that the spearhead is the Lord Ruler's metalmind, it is said that the metalmind would have to be ridiculously powerful in order to seem like aluminum. Considering how often Wax uses the weight, this solution would probably just be wasteful. Also, when Wax uses the ceramic bullets, he remarks on how, when the Coinshot pushes on the bullet and the metal part comes off, he thinks he stopped Wax and doesn't try to dodge, making it easy to hit him, where if you shot metalmind bullets, it would just seem like you have an aluminum gun and the Coinshot would get out of the way.

There are definite advantages to Ranette-made ammunition, and he'll keep using them and Vindication even if it's only so that he can use the rounds developed for other metalborn. This wouldn't necessarily be a replacement, just another tool in Wax's pocket.

The point of how much of a Feruchemical charge it would take to make an iron bullet or pellet Allomantically-resistant I think would need to know the Feruchemical Investiture density necessary to resist Allomancy, the rate that Wax can store Weight, and the volume of the metal. I'm not sure if I have what I need for those calculations, because it depends on the strength of the Allomancer, size of metal, and if Feruchemical storage efficiency has decreased after the Catacendre with the dilution of bloodlines. If it only takes a few seconds to charge a bullet-sized piece of metal, then this gives him flexibility and isn't particularly wasteful. If it takes minutes for a single bullet, that's probably too slow in a firefight, and a waste of Feruchemical storing opportunity. Good point.

[Wandering Shade]

On 5/9/2022 at 4:32 AM, Duxredux said:

If it only takes a few seconds to charge a bullet-sized piece of metal, then this gives him flexibility and isn't particularly wasteful. If it takes minutes for a single bullet, that's probably too slow in a firefight, and a waste of Feruchemical storing opportunity. Good point.

Remember, Wax is almost always storing weight into his iron armbands. So, even if it takes a while to store up for a single bullet, he could instead store weight into his bullets the moment a firefight starts, filling them up with extra weight right before he fires them to make sure they've get enough Investiture to resist a Steelpush.

Still, you're totally right that Ranette's Hazekiller bullets are probably better and more efficient to use than Ironmind rounds.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

he could instead store weight into his bullets the moment a firefight starts, filling them up with extra weight right before he fires them

Keep in mind the Metalminds need skin contact, so his bullets would have to be filled before he loaded the them. To do so during a fight, he would have ot have some way to carry them where he maintains skin contact to fill at the beginning of the fight, then use them only for the reloads. . .

[Returned]

The metalmind rounds would also only be useful in a handful of situations, most specifically when the target is aware Wax is there and will shoot at him from a specific angle in a somewhat predictable window of time. We see a fair number of Allomancers deflecting bullets, but Wax himself doesn't rely on that ability. He does have his steelpush bubble, but that's something that seems mostly unique to him and his skill (savantism?) with the ability, not something that most people would be able to replicate even if they wanted to.

 

Maybe having one stored in the secret, Allomancer-accessible only chamber of his gun would be useful, but it still seems over-engineered compared to a ceramic bullet (or something else Ranette could cook up). And Wax has found better uses for his Feruchemical weight than expending it in this way anyhow, though I suppose if he really wanted to he could work harder during his off-hours to produce these bullets in a reasonable amount of time.