Kaladin is treated unfairly throughout Words of Radiance

[Torol Sadeas]

and by that I even include the Kholin family. Now I do not mean this a criticism of the book, as it makes perfect sense and fits the Alethi society. But in my current read-through of the SA, the horrible treatment of Kaladin really stood out to me.  My first time reading I got frustrated with Kal's decisions a lot, but this time I saw myself agreeing with him a lot more. The guy is a hero, he just saved Dalinar, Adolin and 2600 of their men from CERTAIN death. The Kholin princedom would be crippled without him, half their family and almost all their military leaders dead. He did that not just risking his life, but doing what should have been an absolute death sentence- charging the plateau with a single bridge. And yet, people just completely ignore this act- most seem uncomfortable about it and sweep it under the rug. We see this when Adolin tells the story to Shallan. The fact that Shallan hasnt heard of this despite spending some time on the Shattered Plains is itself a huge condemnation of Alethi high society. He is still being treated as inferior by the lighteyes and the Kholins, despite the fact they still have a gigantic debt to him. Now, the worst offender of this is obviously Elhokar, but I dont think we can absolve the rest of them either. 

One example is when Kal tells Dalinar the story of Amaram. The guy already proved himself trustworthy- when he charged into (what should be) certain death to save you and your men despite having 0 reason to do so, except that his own honor compelled him to do it. He already showed you extraordinary things- and yet you are not willing to even consider he's telling the truth until the arena fight happens? Giving up Oathbringer was a great thing to do, yes- but you still owe him your life. At least dont dismiss him so easily.

Another example of what i mean is the arena fight. In my first read-through i cringed at Kaladin demanding his boon, as did most readers I'd guess. But to be honest, he deserves a boon just as much as Adolin does. He jumped, armed with only a spear and a knife, into a fight with 6 shardbearers and came out winning! This is unheard of, and yet again swept under the rug by the lighteyes. Dalinar's defence of him when talking to Elhokar is also not nearly forceful enough. Again, they just put him into prison and ignore the fact that without him Sadeas would probably be king by now.  

I do not discount that Dalinar (and Renarin) try their best, stil love their characters. But their internalized racism (for the lack of a better word) against darkeyes really shows in WoR. Adolin is actually somewhat of an exception here- after the arena fight. But I totally understand Kal's attitude toward him. He doesnt show any gratefulness towards Kal at all. Generally, people get frustrated about Kaladin's behavior in this book- but I can totally understand him. After all the men he's saved and heroic acts he's done (including making the Assassin in White flee and the mentioned arena fight) he is still being treated as inferior. Alethi elite is insufferable! 

[Kvothe the Bloodless]

First off, I mostly agree with you. Most lighteyes are jerks to darkeyes. It's a simple fact, and yes, I agree, it is basically racist. But sometimes you have to look at both sides of the issue at the same time. Take Amaram for example. Kaladin tells Dalinar of how Amaram is a storming thief and that everything that Amaram stands for is a lie. When looking at it from Kaladin's perspective, Dalinar immediately dissmisses any notion that Amaram is not honorable, and he is only humouring Kaladin. But when you look at it from Dalinar's perspective, Amaram is man you've trusted for many years and the only person who has said anything bad about him is a man you only met a few months ago who clearly has a grudge against Amaram. So in reality, I think Dalinar had (mostly) the correct response to this situation. Instead of immediately calling Amaram out, Dalinar quietly investigated the man to see if anything was up. This way, Dalinar is still able to see if Amaram is honorable, but he also does not have to risk his relationship with Amaram if nothing is wrong. The only thing I think Dalinar should have done differently is to have told Kaladin what he was doing. Then the whole situation of the boon is avoided, and Kaladin eventually gets what he wants, or rather, what he deserves.

I also want to point how going foward, Dalinar and many of the "honorable" lighteyes like Adolin or Navani treat Kaladin with more respect. Especially with Dalinar later on, I think he treats Kaladin more like how a general treats his lieutenant, rather than how a highborn lighteyes treats a lowborn darkeyes.

[Treamayne]

On 5/5/2022 at 5:40 AM, Torol Sadeas said:

One example is when Kal tells Dalinar the story of Amaram. The guy already proved himself trustworthy- when he charged into (what should be) certain death to save you and your men despite having 0 reason to do so, except that his own honor compelled him to do it. He already showed you extraordinary things- and yet you are not willing to even consider he's telling the truth until the arena fight happens? Giving up Oathbringer was a great thing to do, yes- but you still owe him your life. At least dont dismiss him so easily.

 

On 5/5/2022 at 8:43 AM, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

When looking at it from Kaladin's perspective, Dalinar immediately dissmisses any notion that Amaram is not honorable, and he is only humouring Kaladin. But when you look at it from Dalinar's perspective, Amaram is man you've trusted for many years and the only person who has said anything bad about him is a man you only met a few months ago who clearly has a grudge against Amaram. So in reality, I think Dalinar had (mostly) the correct response to this situation. Instead of immediately calling Amaram out, Dalinar quietly investigated the man to see if anything was up. This way, Dalinar is still able to see if Amaram is honorable, but he also does not have to risk his relationship with Amaram if nothing is wrong. The only thing I think Dalinar should have done differently is to have told Kaladin what he was doing. Then the whole situation of the boon is avoided, and Kaladin eventually gets what he wants, or rather, what he deserves.

One issue here is that we only get to see this conversation from Kal's perspective, I have the feeling that had this conversation taken place during a Dalinar Viewpoint, it would work quite differently. More importantly, Kal is still thinking like a Soldier, not an Officer or Leader. 

Spoiler

 

WoR Ch 22

Quote

 

“Continue to hold your tongue. I’ll talk to Amaram. Thank you for telling me of this.”

“Sir,” Kaladin said, taking a step closer to Dalinar. “If you really believe in justice, you—”

“That’s enough for the moment, son,” Dalinar cut in, voice calm but cool. “You’ve had your say, unless you can offer me anything else by way of evidence.”

Kaladin forced down his immediate burst of anger. It was difficult.

“I appreciated your input when we were talking about my son’s duels earlier,” Dalinar said. “This is the second time you’ve added something important to one of our conferences, I believe.”

“Thank you, sir.”

“But soldier,” Dalinar said, “you’re walking quite a line between helpfulness and insubordination in the way you treat me and mine. You have a chip on your shoulder the size of a boulder. I ignore it, because I know what was done to you, and I can see the soldier beneath. That’s the man I hired for this job.”

Kaladin ground his teeth, and nodded. “Yes, sir.”

“Good. Now run along.”

“Sir, but I must escort—”

“I think I’ll return to the palace,” Dalinar said. “I don’t think I’ll get much sleep tonight, so I might want to pester the dowager with my thoughts. Her guards can watch over me. I’ll take one with me when I return to my camp.”

Kaladin let out a long breath. Then saluted. Fine, he thought, continuing down the dark, damp path. When he reached the bottom, Dalinar was still standing up above, now just a shadow. He seemed lost in thought.

Kaladin turned and walked back toward Dalinar’s warcamp. Syl flitted up and landed on his shoulder. “See,” she said. “He listened.”

“No he didn’t, Syl.”

“What? He replied and said—”

“I told him something he didn’t want to hear,” Kaladin said. “Even if he does look into it, he’ll find plenty of reasons to dismiss what I said. 

 

 

 

 

You can see in Kal's reaction that he really is focused only on his own bias. He seems to want Dalinar to simply accept everything without any investigation, but if he was thinking like an Officer at all he would realize that an investigation is required (no matter the eye color of either party - after all didn't he want fair treatment and an invesigation when Elhokar unfairly imprisoned him). I do agree that Dalinar should have explicitly said he would investigate (rather than just "I'll speak to Amaram")

What I found most telling about the first two books is how the Alethi never notice thier own hypocrisy (and nobody points it out) about how they talk disgracefully about Radiants, knowing that:

- Blades and Plate came from the Radiants

- Bonding a Blade will make a darkeyes lighteyed

Especially after Dalinar's visions (Feverstone keep in particular), but they somehow rationalize that even though Radiants are "bad" being lighteyed is "good". . .

 

Yes, the bigotry is thick in the first two books (esp. WoR); but I think it was important or there could be no contrast as we start to see changes after finding Urithiru. And while some of the treatment Kaladin and Bridge Four receives is bigotted, I don't think it is quite as bad as Kal's perception of it. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, Torol Sadeas said:

snip for lenght

1) kaladin is a hero and savior for dalinar and his army, and we only get told the story from their point of view. for sadeas, he's a traitor and terrorist who deserted his place in battle to join the enemy and undermined the whole plan. for the other highprinces? many of them would have rather seen dalinar dead. in the view of many, kaladin is somebody who took sides in a conflict that wasn't his.

2) regarding amaram, dalinar had been amaram friend for over a decade, and amaram has a spotless reputation. So, assume that a guy you hold in high esteem - someone whom you met recently, but who saved your life and gained your trust - suddenly told you that your best friend, whom you've known a very long time and have a spotless reputation, is a murdered.

You certainly wouldn't believe that just on his word; yes, you won't discount this new gfriend, but you also would not just go and arrest your old friend. In fact, as an authority - somebody who passes judgment - dalinar cannot sentence someone for murder based just on someone's word. it's basic justice. Dalinar did the right thing: he investigated. I'm sure, in that situation, you'd also have tried to investigate.

And he got 17 different people swearing that kaladin's story didn't check. would you trust one witness against 17 just because the one did something heroic?

3) in the arena, again, we're told from the pow of kaladin. from the public perspective, adolin has been alternative between 1v2 and 1v3 the whole time. kaladin came in and distracted one opponent for a while. sure, great skill, but the winner is adolin, with some help from kaladin. actually, renarin also kept an opponent away, it can  be said that he contributed as much as kaladin.

No, i actually agree that kaladin wasn't given enough credit. his battle skill is incredible. i'm sure, if he had asked for a socially-appropriate boon at a more appropriate time, he'd have gotten it.

the only one truly ungrateful there is elokhar.

4) as for everything else in general, dalinar said it right: you won't change things by going around raving like a lunatic and challenging important people.

 

kaladin is fighting an uphill battle against his whole society. not just that; he could get good recognition there; but he's pushing too hard against ingrained traditions. he keeps doing inappropriate things and insulting people and their beliefs, even when he's got no reason to. it's unsurprising that he eats up all the good credit he earned otherwise.

Edited May 5, 2022 by king of nowhere

[Kvothe the Bloodless]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

kaladin is fighting an uphill battle against his whole society. not just that; he could get good recognition there; but he's pushing too hard against ingrained traditions. he keeps doing inappropriate things and insulting people and their beliefs, even when he's got no reason to. it's unsurprising that he eats up all the good credit he earned otherwise.

And this is part of the problem. These traditions of lighteyes vs. darkeyes go beyond just Alethkar, which is why it can sometimes be hard to completely side with Kaladin. He's fighting against an institution that has been rock solid for millennia, and it's not like Dalinar can suddenly just throw out all of these traditions in order to help Kaladin. Dalinar not only lacks the power, but no one would agree with him, which is why it seems like (from some perspectives) Dalinar took Kaladin's claims against Amaram with a grain of salt.

[Jerfier]

On 05.05.2022 at 3:43 PM, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

But when you look at it from Dalinar's perspective, Amaram is man you've trusted for many years and the only person who has said anything bad about him is a man you only met a few months ago who clearly has a grudge against Amaram.

Kaladin's not a man he only met a few months ago. He is a man who saved him and his son and his 2600 soldiers just for good and his grudge against Amaram could be very understandble if he says true about Amaram.

In addiction to, despite Amaram's good reputation Adolin and Jasnah doesn't trust and like him so Kaladin isn't only one in Dalinar's circle who doesn't like Amaram. And in the Sedeas thing, Adolin was right.

So Dalinar could have shown more confidence in Kaladin's words about Amaram. Bu he didn't because he is only a darkeyed. I'm sure if Kaladin was a lighteyed it wouldn't be like this.

[NameIess]

48 minutes ago, Jerfier said:

So Dalinar could have shown more confidence in Kaladin's words about Amaram. Bu he didn't because he is only a darkeyed. I'm sure if Kaladin was a lighteyed it wouldn't be like this.

Yes. It would be. And it has nothing to do with Dalinar. A random darkeyes claiming that a Shardbearer killed his men is very different from a lighteyes doing the same thing. Dalinar can't do anything about that without evidence against Amaram. Which he tried to find. Maybe he should have told Kaladin about his investigation, but he still needed the evidence to prove Amaram's guilt.

[Olmund]

Too funny to not point out -- "Torol Sadeas" is here complaining about Kaladin's treatment. Now there's a change of heart if ever I saw one.

[Kvothe the Bloodless]

4 hours ago, Jerfier said:

Kaladin's not a man he only met a few months ago. He is a man who saved him and his son and his 2600 soldiers just for good and his grudge against Amaram could be very understandble if he says true about Amaram.

In addiction to, despite Amaram's good reputation Adolin and Jasnah doesn't trust and like him so Kaladin isn't only one in Dalinar's circle who doesn't like Amaram. And in the Sedeas thing, Adolin was right.

So Dalinar could have shown more confidence in Kaladin's words about Amaram. Bu he didn't because he is only a darkeyed. I'm sure if Kaladin was a lighteyed it wouldn't be like this.

Actually no, I doubt it was just because he is darkeyes. Mainly because Dalinar trusts both Amaram and Kaladin fairly equally, I'd say, and Dalinar isn't one to throw out all of his trust in one person because of an accusation from another. So maybe being darkeyes is a factor, but I don't think it is the whole explaination

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Jerfier said:

So Dalinar could have shown more confidence in Kaladin's words about Amaram. Bu he didn't because he is only a darkeyed. I'm sure if Kaladin was a lighteyed it wouldn't be like this.

Disagreement here. Dalinar didn't because you don't sentence someone for murder just on the word of a single person.

If general khal, or teleb, or anyone else of dalinar high-ranking officers had accused someone of murder, i'm sure dalinar would have reacted similarly: by asking for proof and conducting an investigation. And that goes whether the accused was a highlord of third dahn or a darkeyes. I doubt even king elokhar could have someone of third dhan arrested just on his word - though he certainly could arrest a random darkeye. And even most darkeyes can't be sentenced without trial.

I don't understand why people expect dalinar to throw an exception to that. Kaladin himself should have known it.

Actually, the only thing that should have gone different was that dalinar should have announced to kaladin his intention of making inquiries. because remember, dalinar did make inquiries - and he got 17 different people confirming that amaram won his shards months after kaladin was enslaved. So he didn't take jkaladin's word lightly. that he asked 17 people means that even after he asked 16 people, and everyone confirmed, he still went to the trouble of asking a 17th, just for confirmation.

I wonder how kaladin would have reacted if he had known that

[Treamayne]

38 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Actually, the only thing that should have gone different was that dalinar should have announced to kaladin his intention of making inquiries. because remember, dalinar did make inquiries - and he got 17 different people confirming that amaram won his shards months after kaladin was enslaved. So he didn't take jkaladin's word lightly. that he asked 17 people means that even after he asked 16 people, and everyone confirmed, he still went to the trouble of asking a 17th, just for confirmation.

And after that, because he realized that all of the witnesses could be influenced by Amaram, he went to the trouble of bonding (what he thought was) Taln's blade, then setting up the sting operation to test Amaram's loyalty about searching out the shardblades.

But yes, he should have kept Kal in the loop of the investigation and its stages.

 

[Kvothe the Bloodless]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Disagreement here. Dalinar didn't because you don't sentence someone for murder just on the word of a single person.

If general khal, or teleb, or anyone else of dalinar high-ranking officers had accused someone of murder, i'm sure dalinar would have reacted similarly: by asking for proof and conducting an investigation. And that goes whether the accused was a highlord of third dahn or a darkeyes. I doubt even king elokhar could have someone of third dhan arrested just on his word - though he certainly could arrest a random darkeye. And even most darkeyes can't be sentenced without trial.

Exactly. Dalinar is a fair and just man for the most part, and I think he handled the situation very intelligently (except for not telling bridgeboy)

[Honorless]

And then in Oathbringer, Bridge Four tells Kal "not all Lighteyes!"... just... completely missing the point and putting everything on him. And now the Lighteyes Darkeyes issue has pretty much completely been shoved under the carpet in face of the Greater Threat™ and narrative role of that conflict seems to have been passed onto human-Singer relations. I wonder what the point of so much focus on Darkeyes Lighteyes even was.

[Torol Sadeas]

43 minutes ago, Honorless said:

And then in Oathbringer, Bridge Four tells Kal "not all Lighteyes!"... just... completely missing the point and putting everything on him. And now the Lighteyes Darkeyes issue has pretty much completely been shoved under the carpet in face of the Greater Threat™ and narrative role of that conflict seems to have been passed onto human-Singer relations. I wonder what the point of so much focus on Darkeyes Lighteyes even was.

I completely, 100% agree that this issue needs to be adressed more. And NOT by Jasnah. 

I think/really hope that this will be a large part of Kal's arc in book 5. Now that he is somewhat better mentally, I think his 5th ideal will be about taking greater responsibility and leading humans. When he talked about the "medical revolution" to Lirin he noticed how much of a difference he can make when he's not on the battlefield. He also got reminded of how horrible Alethi society is. I would be very mad if Brandon gave the entire abolishing slavery plotline to Jasnah. The "benevolent" monarch is not at all a satisfying solution to the discrimination problems of Alethkar, at least it's not satisfying to me. Have Kaladin initiate these changes, if possible with large protests! Humanity is basically just a cult to him anyway nowadays   

But the main reason I think this will actually happen is because RoW clearly sets Kaladin up for something great that he does off the battlefield. Odium actually states this explicitly at some point. And I think there are two ways in which this would manifest: 1. Building peace with the singers, tying together two of his plotlines that started way back in the first book (compassion towards parshmen and Lirin's pacifism), 2. fighting the Alethi classism and slavery, also a plotpoint for him that started in book 1. And honestly, this is the only way I can think of that actually gives a decent conclusion to Kaladin's arc. 

People always tell me that Kaladin is "not interested" in politics, but this is not really true. There are plenty of times in WoK and WoR where he voices strong opinions. For example when Adolin wants to give him shards and make him "lighteyed", he replies that he wants life for people like him (darkeyes) to change. It just vanished in OB, because of the greater threat. But when he did the mental health stuff in RoW, it kinda came to the surface again. Anyway, this is where I really want his story to move. Making great changes on a political level. 

One thing I also really don't like about how the series has progressed so far is the concentration of power to the Kholin family. I agree that Dalinar leading the Radiants was a necessary evil at first, but now he should step back. 

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Torol Sadeas said:

I completely, 100% agree that this issue needs to be adressed more. And NOT by Jasnah. 

I think/really hope that this will be a large part of Kal's arc in book 5. Now that he is somewhat better mentally, I think his 5th ideal will be about taking greater responsibility and leading humans. When he talked about the "medical revolution" to Lirin he noticed how much of a difference he can make when he's not on the battlefield. He also got reminded of how horrible Alethi society is. I would be very mad if Brandon gave the entire abolishing slavery plotline to Jasnah. The "benevolent" monarch is not at all a satisfying solution to the discrimination problems of Alethkar, at least it's not satisfying to me. Have Kaladin initiate these changes, if possible with large protests! Humanity is basically just a cult to him anyway nowadays   

But the main reason I think this will actually happen is because RoW clearly sets Kaladin up for something great that he does off the battlefield. Odium actually states this explicitly at some point. And I think there are two ways in which this would manifest: 1. Building peace with the singers, tying together two of his plotlines that started way back in the first book (compassion towards parshmen and Lirin's pacifism), 2. fighting the Alethi classism and slavery, also a plotpoint for him that started in book 1. And honestly, this is the only way I can think of that actually gives a decent conclusion to Kaladin's arc. 

People always tell me that Kaladin is "not interested" in politics, but this is not really true. There are plenty of times in WoK and WoR where he voices strong opinions. For example when Adolin wants to give him shards and make him "lighteyed", he replies that he wants life for people like him (darkeyes) to change. It just vanished in OB, because of the greater threat. But when he did the mental health stuff in RoW, it kinda came to the surface again. Anyway, this is where I really want his story to move. Making great changes on a political level. 

One thing I also really don't like about how the series has progressed so far is the concentration of power to the Kholin family. I agree that Dalinar leading the Radiants was a necessary evil at first, but now he should step back. 

Book 4 does seem to hint strongly at Dalinar and Kaladin stepping away from the frontlines. Building bridges between humans and Singers is only partially Kaladin's plotline, I would say. It seems to have moved to Venli & Leshwi & Rlain and possibly a joint effort by Bridge Four and the Listeners. And, idk, the way the Moash / Vyre plotline was handled, if this is going to be a thing. Even more than that, Brandon might literally want to stretch certain conflicts out for later eras (don't forget it's a story first and foremost, and one that is intended to go on for a long time, something as relatable irl as class struggle is probably going to be stretched out a bit). PS sorry if I come off as unenthusiastic about the subject, it's just that this discussion has come up a lot and I'm a bit exhausted.

[Letryx13]

On 5/7/2022 at 0:59 PM, king of nowhere said:

Disagreement here. Dalinar didn't because you don't sentence someone for murder just on the word of a single person.

If general khal, or teleb, or anyone else of dalinar high-ranking officers had accused someone of murder, i'm sure dalinar would have reacted similarly: by asking for proof and conducting an investigation. And that goes whether the accused was a highlord of third dahn or a darkeyes. I doubt even king elokhar could have someone of third dhan arrested just on his word - though he certainly could arrest a random darkeye. And even most darkeyes can't be sentenced without trial.

I don't understand why people expect dalinar to throw an exception to that. Kaladin himself should have known it.

Actually, the only thing that should have gone different was that dalinar should have announced to kaladin his intention of making inquiries. because remember, dalinar did make inquiries - and he got 17 different people confirming that amaram won his shards months after kaladin was enslaved. So he didn't take jkaladin's word lightly. that he asked 17 people means that even after he asked 16 people, and everyone confirmed, he still went to the trouble of asking a 17th, just for confirmation.

I wonder how kaladin would have reacted if he had known that

Hard agree. 

Even if Dalinar had been able to completely trust Kaladin's word, what was he supposed to do without evidence? Say that even though 17 people, light-eyed and dark, backed up Amaram's version of the events, that he really trusts this one dark-eyed soldier? 

Obviously, Kaladin being dark-eyed played into the bigotry in Vorin society, but look at it completely objectively. One side has nothing but his own word, while the other has over a dozen witnesses backing them up.  It's not hard to deduce that Amaram persuaded those witnesses to lie for him, but still.  

As for telling Kaladin, well, we don't actually know when Dalinar heard back about those 17 witnesses. Perhaps he was planning on telling Kaladin after he'd finished investigating. He did have other things weighing on him at the time.

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

And then in Oathbringer, Bridge Four tells Kal "not all Lighteyes!"... just... completely missing the point and putting everything on him. And now the Lighteyes Darkeyes issue has pretty much completely been shoved under the carpet in face of the Greater Threat™ and narrative role of that conflict seems to have been passed onto human-Singer relations. I wonder what the point of so much focus on Darkeyes Lighteyes even was.

I don't think it's fair to say that the issue was shoved aside, at least not completely. First of all, Kaladin finally came to feel like light-eyes weren't a different species due to his time with the wall guard in Oathbringer.  For another, the fact that a dark eyed soldier was capable of becoming a battalion lord without being a radiant is very telling. Dalinar specifically states that he can't name Kaladin that in TWoK because it'll cause problems, depsite everything Kaladin just did. And in RoW, Kaladn mentions how the division between light eyes and dark eyes were less divisive under Jasnah's rule.  

I don't think they just ignored the issues between light eyes and dark eyes, I think Sanderson gradually started to build bridges between the groups. Partly because of the Radiants, it's likely well known that the first new generation of wind runners were originally dark eyes, but also because of people like Jasnah and Dalinar, who don't care what someone's eye color is.

On 5/7/2022 at 0:41 PM, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

Actually no, I doubt it was just because he is darkeyes. Mainly because Dalinar trusts both Amaram and Kaladin fairly equally, I'd say, and Dalinar isn't one to throw out all of his trust in one person because of an accusation from another. So maybe being darkeyes is a factor, but I don't think it is the whole explaination

This is another good point.  Dalinar has known Amaram for years, considers him a good and honorable friend, and trusts him. Even ignoring the evidence (or lack thereof), what do you do when two people you trust tell you opposing stories?

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Letryx13

[Treamayne]

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

And then in Oathbringer, Bridge Four tells Kal "not all Lighteyes!"... just... completely missing the point and putting everything on him. And now the Lighteyes Darkeyes issue has pretty much completely been shoved under the carpet in face of the Greater Threat™ and narrative role of that conflict seems to have been passed onto human-Singer relations. I wonder what the point of so much focus on Darkeyes Lighteyes even was.

Battalionlord Teofil might object to that statement. RoW Ch 40

Quote

Navani glanced at Teofil, who leaned in next to her and spoke in a soft voice. “Pardon them, Brightness,” he said. “They likely don’t much like following a woman’s orders. Masculine arts and all that.”

“And you?” she asked.

“I figure the Blackthorn has studied every military text known to man,” he said. “And we could do worse for a general than the person who likely read ’em to him. Particularly if she’s willing to listen to a little sense. That’s more than I can say for some highlords I’ve followed.”

“Thank you,” she said.

“What we needed most was for someone to make the decision,” he said. “Before you came, they were all balking at doing what I wanted. Storming fools. Almost anyone worth his Stormlight is on the front lines somewhere, Brightness.”

So it took a Darkeyed Battalionlord and a Lighteyed Queen to get the storming fools to act against an invasion (because you obviously can't trust a Darkeyes without a corroborating lighteyes; nor can you trust a female without a corroborating male - <sarcasm drips in background>)

I can't find any version of "not all lighteyes!" in Oathbringer. Did you mean RoW, or perhaps this quote:

OB Ch 70

Quote

Kaladin got a second bowl of stew, and as he settled back into his place, he realized something with a shock.

Storms. They’re all lighteyes, aren’t they?

---

13 hours ago, Torol Sadeas said:

 I would be very mad if Brandon gave the entire abolishing slavery plotline to Jasnah.

---

The "benevolent" monarch is not at all a satisfying solution to the discrimination problems of Alethkar, at least it's not satisfying to me.

For the record - anti-slavery and anti-discrimination are not the same. I do not recall any evidence of Jasnah doing anything against discrimination or the class-divide.

I would expect that the anti-slavery thing will be Jasnah's (supported by Kaladin) and the class divide/discrimination thing will be Kal (supported by Dalinar-maybe Jasnah).

 

[king of nowhere]

Those kind of social mores don't drop overnight anyway. Only in bad movies the hero does something and suddenly everyone goes against everything they've ever being taught. Culture changes slowly. Dalinar said it right: if you want to change the world, distinguish yourself in this important position, and show everyone that a darkeyes can lead.

All of human history shows that prejudices are dropped gradually. First exceptions are made, then gradually a significant fraction of the population becomes in favor of more equality, then gradually laws are made that gradually reduce the discrimination. But even when the law states that there must be no discrimination at all, it still remains ingrained in culture for a few generations. And after it's been cleared from mainstream culture, it still remains in subcultures. It went that way for racism, for xenophobia, for women emancipation, for voting rights, for social mobility, you name a process of social inclusion, it went that way.

Kaladin and Dalinar have ushered several important changes, and culture has already shifted as a result. I guess that darkeys battallionlord wouldn't have been there if somebody hadn't set a precedent. If kaladin suddenly waved his hand and the world became egalitarian, I wouldn't find it believable.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be so harsh to judge the vorin system. Every culture has values that other cultures would find abhorrent, and every culture works in its historical context. Pretty much every culture was heavily discriminating in the past. And it had to be; our modern system of social right and equality only works in a rich industrial society. Emancipation from serfdom can only exhist if the society has the resources for public schooling - which requires that many people are removed from working to teach; in a society that depends on 90% of its population to be farmers to eat, that's just not feasible, nor is it feasible to grant much social mobility if you still need that 90% of people working the fields. In a society with the kind of child mortality we had a few centuries ago, it was necessary for women to make many children to replenish the population; and with most work being hard physical labor, and women having to spend most of their adult life pregnant or breastfeeding, emancipation just wasn't feasible.

Today we look at those old values as bigoted and backwards, but in a low-tech society they are needed for survival. Of course, in our own high tech society, they are detrimental - we no longer need lots of farmers and mothers, but we can never have enough educated people.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, we can't expect roshar to suddenly embrace modern values. It can't happen, and it would be detrimental for them anyway. They are hitting an industrial revolution, though, which will likely cause that shift in values gradually over a few generations. And all this will happen regardless of what anyone does.

[Honorless]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Battalionlord Teofil might object to that statement. RoW Ch 40

So it took a Darkeyed Battalionlord and a Lighteyed Queen to get the storming fools to act against an invasion (because you obviously can't trust a Darkeyes without a corroborating lighteyes; nor can you trust a female without a corroborating male - <sarcasm drips in background>)

I can't find any version of "not all lighteyes!" in Oathbringer. Did you mean RoW, or perhaps this quote:

OB Ch 70

---

 

OB ch 70~ish, just scroll back a bit, see Kaladin and Bridge 4 talking about Azure's unit and Tenners

[Letryx13]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

OB ch 70~ish, just scroll back a bit, see Kaladin and Bridge 4 talking about Azure's unit and Tenners

Kaladin was complaining about how the light eyes in kholinar were throwing parties despite being under siege. Scar and Drehy pointed out how dark eyed people did similar things, even while fighting was going on. They weren’t saying “not all light eyes”, they were pointing out that the groups weren’t so different. 

[Honorless]

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Kaladin was complaining about how the light eyes in kholinar were throwing parties despite being under siege. Scar and Drehy pointed out how dark eyed people did similar things, even while fighting was going on. They weren’t saying “not all light eyes”, they were pointing out that the groups weren’t so different. 

Not exactly my point. I'm a bit exhausted of these topics, tbh so I'm not gonna rehash the whole thing for the umpteenth time. Hmm, I think you can find all these old topics easily enough by visiting king of nowhere, ILuvHats or Gray's profile (I have way too many posts for even me to sort through), Gray also went through the whole thing in a Shardcast, iirc she explained it as the right to anger, the episode should also be easy enough to find.

[Treamayne]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:27 PM, Honorless said:

OB ch 70~ish, just scroll back a bit, see Kaladin and Bridge 4 talking about Azure's unit and Tenners

 

On 5/22/2022 at 11:38 AM, Honorless said:

Not exactly my point. I'm a bit exhausted of these topics, tbh so I'm not gonna rehash the whole thing for the umpteenth time. Hmm, I think you can find all these old topics easily enough by visiting king of nowhere, ILuvHats or Gray's profile (I have way too many posts for even me to sort through), Gray also went through the whole thing in a Shardcast, iirc she explained it as the right to anger, the episode should also be easy enough to find.

I apologize if I caused you distress, I was just trying to find the quote so I could put your original comment in context.

[Morningtide]

I really hope that the issue is addressed more as part of Kaladin's arc, and I think it will be. It'd be so cool to see him causing that kind of social reform (though he kind of already set it in motion) 

Quote

It won't let me delete this quote 

On 5/7/2022 at 10:59 AM, king of nowhere said:

Actually, the only thing that should have gone different was that dalinar should have announced to kaladin his intention of making inquiries. because remember, dalinar did make inquiries - and he got 17 different people confirming that amaram won his shards months after kaladin was enslaved. So he didn't take jkaladin's word lightly. that he asked 17 people means that even after he asked 16 people, and everyone confirmed, he still went to the trouble of asking a 17th, just for confirmation.

I completely agree with this. The communication between the two was bad, but Dalinar went above and beyond to check Kaladin's accusation. 

[Oratus albinus]

This is way off. Kaladin deserves very little sympathy in this book. Firstly, yes he saved them, and was rewarded FAR above what any other group out on those plains would received . These are wars, and in wars risking yourself for people on your own side is part of it. If they had been soldiers they would have been given commendations and maybe a medal, the Bridge crews were given freedom, status and a whole new life. Men do not go on expecting everything to be handed to them because of something they did in the past, even something heroic. Big grand gestures in combat are easy, soldiers put themselves in danger to save comrades all the time. Carrying out orders and your duty on a daily basis, especially when they might not be something that you personally want to do is difficult, and Kaladin failed at that at every corner. When you're part of an army (which they are) you're only as good as the last battle. IMO Kaladin's behavior throughout most of that book was selfish, immature and reprehensible. He behaves like a child. He gets mad because what? Dalinar becausedidn't pull out his sword and take on everyone when the king ordered his arrest? Give me a break. He stews over the fact that Dalinar told him he is expected to follow orders: guess what, so is everyone else in that army. 

He thinks himself noble and virtuous, but like most of the other things he tells himself through WOR, but his actions show that these are just things he's telling himself. He talks about how much he cares for that bridge crews, and how he "has to save them."  The reality is that as soon as he discovered that Moash tried to kill the king and he didn't arrest him, he betrayed the Bridge crews. Even worse, he betrayed them for Moash. Moash is a piece of rust that deserves nothing but scorn. As soon as Moash did that, he put the entire bridge crew in danger. By knowing and keeping silent, Kaladin made himself complicit in that crime, and by extension made the bridge crews complicit, at the very least Bridge Four. If he had been caught every one of them would have been implicated regardless of their involvement. They had no choice in the matter because Moash wanted to feed his petty desire for vengeance. Kaladin's hypocrisy showed even more after Dalinar explained to Kaladin that what happened wasn't as cut as dry as it seems, Kaladin brushed it off and still held a grudge because Dalinar didn't do more. This after he discovered one of his men took part in a treasonous plot to kill the king…and Kaladin did nothing.

Then if that wasn't bad enough, he decided to become actively involved in the plan, and hands Moash Shard plate and blade. Not because removing the King was the right thing like he told himself, but because he was angry at him and wanted to lash out. If they had been caught before, they would have been executed and the bridge crews disbanded. They certainly couldn't be trusted to guard anyone, they would have been contaminated by the actions of their comrade and leader. If they had been successful in killing the kind and found out, what do you think would have happen then? Everything Kaladin did was for self-centered, bigoted and spiteful reasons. His whole statement in the chasm that "everytime a Lighteyes does something to a darkeye you're all guilty, even indirectly," is a better look to what resides in his heart then any assertion of his virtues are.

His sense of entitlement permeates his entire character throughout the book. He was treated more than fairly, considering everything that happened. You can't rely on the fact that he saved Dalinar as a get out of jail card forever after. He was paid back several times over. His expectations of what "he deserved," were unrealistic, sounded like some 16 year old overly entitled douchebag on Twitter than the expectations of a soldier. He was given authority, respect, position and power; far more power and authority than almost every lighteye in Dalinar's army. He couldn't order any Lighteyes that were of higher rank, but neither could they order him, and as a thank you he spit in Dalinar's face. He ruined all the plans Dalinar had laid out, plans that actually WERE for the greater good, and he did it for himself. 

All of his pain, as the song says, was self chosen. He's quick to blame everyone else when his life takes a bad turn, but gives no credit for people who lift him up. Instead he believes that it's all deserved. 

It's no coincidence that his internal narrative changes when he finally decides not to be such douche. It's not that people suddenly starting treating him better, it's just that he was no longer looking for every slight either real or imagined, and most of those slights were perceived. He had been trusted and admired by most people in Dalinar's circle, especially the army. Yet all he saw were phantoms. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Oratus albinus
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