Veez Posted May 5, 2022 Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) I've been entertaining the idea that Chanarach is not Shallan's mother. Chanarach is Shallan's father. Feel free to poke holes in that theory. Here's the breakdown: We know the Heralds’ madness is tied to their heraldic attributes being twisted in some way. Chana’s attributes are “Brave” and “Obedient.” Lin Davar is a paranoid man, controlling to the point he’s obsessed with being obeyed and enters a blind rage whenever someone defies him. Heralds (and other highly Invested entities) have been shown repeatedly to be more resitant to physical damage. When Shallan kills her father, she uses the blackbane her brother Wikim gave her years ago. Blackbane is stated several times and by different characters to become more potent over time. Yet, when Shallan poisons her father, not only does it not kill him and only paralyzes him, he actually begins to recover from it, which is what prompts her to strangle him instead. And when she strangles him, she uses her necklace, which for Brandon felt the need to specify on-screen was made of aluminum. I feel like this is probably relevant. Do we know for certain Chanarach is a woman? We have the portraits, which we know aren’t accurate, and that’s about it. People who know Chana (Hoid, other Heralds, Shards and spren), never refer to her as a “she”. The Stormfather doesn’t contradict Gavilar when he does, but that doesn’t mean anything, given that we know the Stormfather can lie by omission. And even if she actually is a woman, we don’t know the process used to give the Heralds a body when they return. Something could have gone wrong. We don’t know which Herald dies the night of Gavilar’s assassination. We do know that there were several of them in the palace that night, and that Szeth was on a killing spree at the time. In fact, the unknown Herald’s death happened only moments before Sadeas came to warn Gavilar. Edited May 5, 2022 by Veez 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 5, 2022 Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Veez said: Do we know for certain Chanarach is a woman? We have the portraits, which we know aren’t accurate, and that’s about it. People who know Chana (Hoid, other Heralds, Shards and spren), never refer to her as a “she”. The Stormfather doesn’t contradict Gavilar when he does, but that doesn’t mean anything, given that we know the Stormfather can lie by omission. And even if she actually is a woman, we don’t know the process used to give the Heralds a body when they return. Something could have gone wrong. Yes, it's five men and five women. Men: Ishar, Jezrien, Nale, Kalak, Taln So all the other Heralds are female And bodies are simply made for them, so there is nothing to go wrong. Edited May 5, 2022 by Frustration 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veez Posted May 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: Yes, it's five men and Five women. Beautiful vorin symmetry. And we know historians and ardents never lie. Is there actual confirmation that the Heralds are five men and five women, besides what characters think they know? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 5, 2022 Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 30 minutes ago, Veez said: Beautiful vorin symmetry. And we know historians and ardents never lie. Is there actual confirmation that the Heralds are five men and five women, besides what characters think they know? The Stormfather said it was five men and five women. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomander Rake Posted May 5, 2022 Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) I agree that Chana is almost assuredly a woman, though perhaps that doesn't immediately mean this is impossible? We can look to something similar maybe to add merit- do we know if fused are reborn in bodies of their particular gender? (WoT Spoilers) Also, could be an Spoiler Aran'gar type situation, where Balthamel was put into a woman's body after the DO revived him? He was still him, just in a woman's body. The theory does seem a bit wild but your second and third points are both super solid - Blackbanes potency was def mentioned more than it seemed it had a right to be haha Edited May 5, 2022 by Anomander Rake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 5, 2022 Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Anomander Rake said: e can look to something similar maybe to add merit- do we know if fused are reborn in bodies of their particular gender? They are not, but Heralds work differently Spoiler Questioner How do the Heralds come back? As Cognitive Shadows, how do they a physical body? Brandon Sanderson That system will be explained in the coming books, so that is a RAFO. I'm gonna dig into it pretty deeply. It's relevant for multiple reasons... In the original version, Taln ended up in someone else, like they would get a body from someone else, which was part of fueling the "Is he crazy, is he not," because people were like, "I recognize this guy!" I don't use that system anymore. Questioner That's what I was wondering, because the Fused-- Brandon Sanderson They use something kind of more like the Fused in the original draft, it's not that process anymore. Questioner Is that gonna give us lead-ins to how it worked with Kelsier? Brandon Sanderson Maybe. Maybe. You shall see. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomander Rake Posted May 5, 2022 Report Share Posted May 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: They are not, but Heralds work differently Hide contents Brandon Sanderson They use something kind of more like the Fused in the original draft, it's not that process anymore. Quick with the WoBs as always, ty IDK how i wasn't aware that was how he originally had things planned to work for the heralds' rebirths , thats cool it mirrored the fused like that - only makes me more curious to learn how its done at current tho XD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted May 6, 2022 Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 Its not a bad theory, just the problem with Vorin symmetry as stated earlier. Nice to see some theories other than "shallan's mother". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veez Posted May 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 15 hours ago, Frustration said: The Stormfather said it was five men and five women. He did not. If I remember correctly, Dalinar said that. Or maybe Navani. 14 hours ago, Anomander Rake said: The theory does seem a bit wild I did call it a crackpot theory! I do agree that that's the weakest part of my agrument, but unless we get actual confirmation that Chanarach has never been in a man's body, I'm going to keep believing it. 2 hours ago, Rune said: Its not a bad theory, just the problem with Vorin symmetry as stated earlier. Nice to see some theories other than "shallan's mother". Thanks! This is mostly me trying to explain away how Chanarach could be a man, tbh. And while I admit it's reaching quite a bit, I still think it remains possible, if tenuously so. We don't have confirmation that Chanarach is a woman. The portraits are in-world portraits, confirmed to not necessarily be accurate. Between Aharietiam and the current times, the Hierocracy happened, with the church destroying or altering historical records to suit their needs. It might not mean anything, though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 6, 2022 Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Veez said: He did not. If I remember correctly, Dalinar said that. Or maybe Navani. He did, it's in Oathbringer, during the Aheriatam Vision. I'll find the quote if you really want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veez Posted May 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Frustration said: I'll find the quote if you really want. It's not necessary. From the scene you mentioned (Chapter 38): Quote “Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?” THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 6, 2022 Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, Veez said: It's not necessary. From the scene you mentioned (Chapter 38): Huh, I guess you are right. Still, nothing about the Heralds has been wrong yet, even Nale's scar is still remembered. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veez Posted May 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: even Nale's scar is still remembered. That's a fair point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erklitt Posted May 7, 2022 Report Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) You have me fascinated! The longer I think about it, the more possible - even likely! - it seems to me. And there I was until now practically sure about the Mother = Chana theory. By now, I'm almost 50/50. As @Anomander Rake says, especially the blackbane and aluminum points are very valid; I wondered about both during a recent reread, without ever getting near to any specific theory about them. Also, the 'obedient' topic: I once started writing a post about Lin's constant complaints that no one obeyed him, trying to say it strengthened the Mother = Chana theory, but gave up when I realized all that happened after Mother's death, so it didn't really fit. And about 'brave': Lin detests his sons - except Helaran - for their lack of bravery in standing up to his dictatorship. Typical mad herald inversion of a virtue? As for gender, I think both are possible: Chana never having been a woman or a gender change. For Chana never having been a woman: I hold to the theory that in SA5 prologue it's a 'Stormfaker' rather than the Stormfather for most of the time. He drives Gavilar in the direction of the Sons of Honor, meaning he would want to strengthen Vorin orthodoxy like '5/5', and for that reason not contradicting Gavilar. And maybe in the vision the Stormfather was lying by omission, but then maybe in the context this misapprehension just wasn't important enough to point out. This explicit mention of something we seem to know by heart really could be intentional misdirection by Brandon. For a gender change: @Frustration 's WOB strengthens the theory in my opinion. If they just always automatically got their original bodies back, why would this process become important later on? There has to be more to that, and part of that could be that somehow an originally female Chana woke up in a male body for the last desolation. About the herald who died on the day of Gavilar's death: there's that theory about Jasnah's hired assassin being Vedel, and we never hear about her again. Maybe she found her match on that night? I admit that's a stretch. But not impossible. She's the only one left beside Chana who's not accounted for by at least a WoB if not in the books. And one more point in favor: the Mother = Chana theory has, among other valid points, stated that it explains why Shallan's familiy was the center of so much attention: spren, Skybreakers and Ghostbloods. But at least the Ghostblood attention happened years after Mother's death, and Skybreaker and spren attention also didn't cease after it. On 5/6/2022 at 6:20 PM, Frustration said: Still, nothing about the Heralds has been wrong yet, even Nale's scar is still remembered. By the Shin. We haven't seen their viewpoints apart from Szeth so far, and IIRC Szeth has never seen Shallan. Jasnah has Wit's drawings, but she's secretive, not showing her cards. No reason to believe she'd make obvious discrepancies to tradition public. Also, as has been mentioned against the Mother = Chana theory, there's no hint Jasnah recognized Shallan's likeness in Chana, though of course that could also be because of this secretiveness. All in all, I think this theory has a surprising lot going for it, even though it's still crackpot ! Edited May 7, 2022 by Erklitt slight grammer correction 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marabout Posted May 8, 2022 Report Share Posted May 8, 2022 My theory of how Heralds return is that they enter an undifferentiated chrysalis and then pupate and emerge with a fully grown body. I started this theory because I believe that Shallan has a gemheart containing her mother or an Unmade. So consider…. The Herald returns to Roshar and enters the gemheart of a fetal state chrysalis then pupates. The process takes roughly a year (there seems to be a gap between Taln returning to Roshar and his appearance). To reproduce, a Herald imbues or creates a chrysalis (it has been confirmed that they can have children but not in a normal way). If Shallan is the daughter of a Herald, she would therefore have a gemheart. That gemheart likely contains her mother’s investiture (manifesting as Radiant) or one of the Unmade. I think that the chrysalis theory makes sense given how “Roshar” it all is. There has been a lot of discussion about chrysalis and pupation in the books including drawings. Plus I think it would be funny if the Heralds and Shallan are glorified chulls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 8, 2022 Report Share Posted May 8, 2022 7 hours ago, Erklitt said: By the Shin. Um, no. Gavilar specifically mentions that old herald drawings had the scar. And he's about as unaware of Shin culture as you get. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted May 9, 2022 Report Share Posted May 9, 2022 Yay! @Veez It's great to see you finally on the Shard!!! Given the whole veil of secrecy surrounding Shallan's mother, I could totally see that all being a red herring and this theory being true. I kinda hope it is. This would be awesome! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veez Posted May 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) @Erklitt I'm flattered! You articulated your points much better than I was able to. Especially the one about the Divine Attributes. On 07/05/2022 at 8:39 PM, Erklitt said: And about 'brave': Lin detests his sons - except Helaran - for their lack of bravery in standing up to his dictatorship. Typical mad herald inversion of a virtue? 'Obedient' also sort of works for Helaran, I think. He was a Skybreaker acolyte after all. They're great at following rules. It might have played into Lin's respect for him. Hi @Bort! Tbh part of the reason I finally got the confidence to post something is because I realized you were there. Edited May 9, 2022 by Veez Accidentally posted a blak reply 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Silver Posted May 9, 2022 Report Share Posted May 9, 2022 Isn't there a Stormlight archives timeline that says when Shallan's mom and then later her dad died? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erklitt Posted May 9, 2022 Report Share Posted May 9, 2022 4 hours ago, Veez said: I'm flattered! No need, that's a very insightful theory! And by the way, welcome to the shard! On 5/8/2022 at 4:31 AM, Frustration said: Um, no. Gavilar specifically mentions that old herald drawings had the scar. My bad, I didn't remember this. So, as far as we go with this theory, it's probably the gender change. But several things: e.g. your WoB, and another about it being a special and difficult process for heralds to procreate, but especially the timeline (Mother dying in that very month - I mean: what are the odds??) got me thinking some more. What if Mother actually was the herald, but in order to have children they had to do things that would render the partner similar to the herald in some respects? With one of the side effects being they were (at least almost) equally hard to kill, and them 'inheriting' some character traits, including herald madness? I realize this is quite a stretch, but if Brandon is really going to dig into all those 'herald body mechanics' 'pretty deeply', this could be some nice foreshadowing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted May 9, 2022 Report Share Posted May 9, 2022 I think there is still a pretty good theory that Shallan is in someway Chanarach (like a cutting), but I am not convinced there is enough evidence either way. Hoid's reaction makes me thin the similarity in appearance or aura is absolutely overwhelming though, which is odd. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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