"You've had a hard time of it lately, haven't you?" [SP4 / Oathbringer / Nohadon]]

[Subvisual Haze]

A specific turn of phrase in SP4 caught my eye.

Quote

Wit didn’t respond.  He clasped his hands behind his back and stood up straight, a trick he’d taught Nomad years ago to convince an audience you were thinking about something very important.

“You’ve had a hard time of it lately,” Wit said, “haven’t you, apprentice?”

-SP4 Ch 9

Quote

Nohadon finished with a flourish and tossed the pen down.  He threw back his chair and stood, grinning like a fool, and grabbed Dalinar by the arms. "Good to see you again, my friend.  You've been having a hard time of it lately, haven't you?"

-Oathbringer Ch 103 

Could just be a coincidence, but I think this very specific turn of phrase could be a clue.  I've often thought that Nohadon in visions sometimes seems very similar to Hoid.  He wrote a whole book of parable type stories that Hoid loves so much. His mannerisms in the Oathbringer dream/vision were also lighthearted in a Hoid-like way.  The whole Nohadon dream/vision in Oathbringer felt just like the typical therapeutic pep-talk we've seen Hoid give to Kaladin or Shallan before.

Was Nohadon an apprentice to Hoid? 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Subvisual Haze
typo

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

16 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

A specific turn of phrase in SP4 caught my eye.

Could just be a coincidence, but I think this very specific turn of phrase could be a clue.  I've often thought that Nohadon in visions sometimes seems very similar to Hoid.  He wrote a whole book of parable type stories that Hoid loves so much. His mannerisms in the Oathbringer dream/vision were also lighthearted in a Hoid-like way.  The whole Nohadon dream/vision in Oathbringer felt just like the typical therapeutic pep-talk we've seen Hoid give to Kaladin or Shallan before.

Was Nohadon an apprentice to Hoid? 

I like this theory, I really like this theory. I think it works nicely, does this mean we'll get a Nohadon reveal in KoW?

[+mdross81]

8 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

A specific turn of phrase in SP4 caught my eye.

Could just be a coincidence, but I think this very specific turn of phrase could be a clue.  I've often thought that Nohadon in visions sometimes seems very similar to Hoid.  He wrote a whole book of parable type stories that Hoid loves so much. His mannerisms in the Oathbringer dream/vision were also lighthearted in a Hoid-like way.  The whole Nohadon dream/vision in Oathbringer felt just like the typical therapeutic pep-talk we've seen Hoid give to Kaladin or Shallan before.

Was Nohadon an apprentice to Hoid? 

Great catch.

It even seems possible that the Nohadon we see in the OB vision could actually be Wit in disguise. The mannerisms and playful nature feel spot on. And it reminds me a bit of the Dog and the Dragon - providing a safe space and delivering a message the character needs to hear, while the character is assaulted by something. For Kal it’s the hateful winds, for Dalinar it’s the painful memories returning. 

[ash's_eyes]

Ok I was thinking a similar thing. I thought mabey it was too out there to think that Nohadon might be Hoid, but if there are others out there that were thinking along the similar lines, then maybe not. It makes a little more sense tho that he might have been an apprentice to Hoid

[Hoids4thApprentice]

14 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Great catch.

It even seems possible that the Nohadon we see in the OB vision could actually be Wit in disguise. The mannerisms and playful nature feel spot on.

I am really loving the theory of Nohadon as Hoid in disguise. Thinking back to the SP4 Spoiler Stream, Brandon was weirdly unsure as to whether we had seen the second apprentice on screen. If the second apprentice was the person Nohadon/Hoid-in-disguise was speaking to that Dalinar is replacing in the vision, then Brandon's lack of clarity about whether we had or had not seen the second apprentice on screen makes total sense.

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 minutes ago, Hoids4thApprentice said:

I am really loving the theory of Nohadon as Hoid in disguise. Thinking back to the SP4 Spoiler Stream, Brandon was weirdly unsure as to whether we had seen the second apprentice on screen. If the second apprentice was the person Nohadon/Hoid-in-disguise was speaking to that Dalinar is replacing in the vision, then Brandon's lack of clarity about whether we had or had not seen the second apprentice on screen makes total sense.

 

Hoid-in-disguise is his own apprentice?

[Hoids4thApprentice]

6 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Hoid-in-disguise is his own apprentice?

Apologies if that was unclear. I was saying that I really like the idea of Nohadon being Hoid-in-disguise. I therefor think the second apprentice that Brandon was unsure whether we have seen on screen is the "old friend" Nohadon (if he is Hoid-in-disguise) is talking to when he says to Dalinar in the vision that:

23 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

You've been having a hard time of it lately, haven't you?

If this were true, it makes it tricky for Brandon to say whether we have or have not seen the second apprentice on screen.

Technically we have not seen the second apprentice on screen as Dalinar was taking their place. Simultaneously we would have seen the beginnings of  a conversation with the second apprentice on screen.

[ash's_eyes]

@KaladinWorldsinger, to clarify (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), some people think Nohadon could actually be Hoid, some think he is just his apprenticee. Some also thing that in the visions it is Hoid pretending to be Nohadon. that is my understanding of the different ideas here

[+mdross81]

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that Nohadon was always Hoid. Only that Hoid likely knew of, and respected Nohadon as a fellow storyteller. And that Hoid may have impersonated and/or created an illusion of Nohadon in the OB Nohadon vision in order to help Dalinar.

I suppose it’s still possible in that case that Nohadon was once an apprentice of Hoid’s, or that - as @Hoids4thApprentice suggested - Dalinar is taking the place of someone who was an apprentice of Hoid in the OB vision.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

14 hours ago, Hoids4thApprentice said:

Apologies if that was unclear. I was saying that I really like the idea of Nohadon being Hoid-in-disguise. I therefor think the second apprentice that Brandon was unsure whether we have seen on screen is the "old friend" Nohadon (if he is Hoid-in-disguise) is talking to when he says to Dalinar in the vision that:

If this were true, it makes it tricky for Brandon to say whether we have or have not seen the second apprentice on screen.

Technically we have not seen the second apprentice on screen as Dalinar was taking their place. Simultaneously we would have seen the beginnings of  a conversation with the second apprentice on screen.

Oh I get you now, that's a really interesting thought! But in this nohadon vision, he is directly talking to Dalinar and not some 'old friend' since he directly calls Dalinar by his name later. If you are thinking of the young nohadon vision, where nohadon is talking about some guy called 'karm' I can see that. 

[StormingTexan]

Wow amazing catch! I am in the camp that the Nohadon Visions were Hoid in disguise. I always thought those visions were weird and this goes a long way in explaining them. 

[+Harrycrapper]

On 4/16/2022 at 0:30 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Hoid-in-disguise is his own apprentice?

Technically, Hoid took the name Hoid from his master, so Hoid is Hoid's apprentice. 

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Technically, Hoid took the name Hoid from his master, so Hoid is Hoid's apprentice. 

 

But since I was talking about if our hoid is also his own apprentice so what that would mean is 

Hoid's apprentice is also hoid's apprentice

Hoid's apprentice is also hoid's master

Hoid's master is also hoid's master

 

Make sense?

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But since I was talking about if our hoid is also his own apprentice so what that would mean is 

Hoid's apprentice is also hoid's apprentice

Hoid's apprentice is also hoid's master

Hoid's master is also hoid's master

 

Make sense?

If anyone could manage it, it would be Hoid. 

[Onironte]

Madness or genius?