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A question about Lessie [spoilers]


The Kings Raven

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One thing I don't understand about Lessie. She's incredibly in love with Wax, her whole motivation is protecting Wax from Harmony. So why did she abandon Wax and let Harmony have him the moment she "died", not to mention the pain of loosing her. Was she terrified that Wax would reject her if she revealed she was a Kandra? Did Harmony take control of her to stop her talking to Wax, that seems unlikely since Harmony is big on free will and didn't stop her going against his plans earlier but I can't rule it out.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not sure on this one, but Lessie sure is an interesting case. Paalm was one of the Third Generation, and the psychology of that group was quite different from other kandra. Many of the Thirds didn't feel like they had their own personality unless they had a role to play. In her long life she had been the personal agent of The Lord Ruler and possibly had been specifically trained to thwart the plans of Ruin. She saw the fall of first the Sliver of Infinity, Preservation, and then Ruin. She was there when Ruin attempted to take control of the Kandra and likely fulfilled the First Contract's Resolution. I think understanding Paalm's history is part of understanding her.

The rest of my thoughts are speculative. I don't think like a Third, but maybe she felt she couldn't reveal that Lessie was a kandra and was still playing the role when she was shot in the head. Maybe after Lessie "died" she was worried that Wax wouldn't believe that Lessie had always been a kandra, that he would think that she was an impersonator defiling Lessie's corpse (that exact thought may have let Wax shoot her with the hemalurgic bullet in the end, so a valid worry I think).

I'll say this, we don't really know what happened between Lessie's death and Bleeder coming to Elendel. It was confirmed by TenSoon that Harmony had tried to take control of Paalm once, but no information was given on the specifics. Maybe it was at Lessie's death, maybe if Paalm tried to go back to Wax, maybe Harmony attempted it directly after Paalm acquired the Trellium spike, we don't know unless there's a WoB. We don't even know how long it was before SoS that Paalm got the spike. Harmony said in the end of BoM that the spike had permanently damaged her mind, so I don't even know how much of her rationale was always what it looked like as Bleeder, or if obtaining the spike and jettisoning her original blessing twisted her mind too much. For that matter, I don't even know if she got the Trellium spike of her own free will or if she was duped. What we do know is that she got the spike and set out the free Wax and cripple Harmony's influence. She wouldn't have been very stable with only one spike anyway, but the Trellium was specifically bad for her mind. Her actions were incredibly methodical, but... somewhere she stopped trying to just be with Wax and committed suicide in his arms, her desire for freedom overruling her desire to be with him.

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On 4/11/2022 at 3:38 AM, The Kings Raven said:

One thing I don't understand about Lessie. She's incredibly in love with Wax, her whole motivation is protecting Wax from Harmony. So why did she abandon Wax and let Harmony have him the moment she "died", not to mention the pain of loosing her. Was she terrified that Wax would reject her if she revealed she was a Kandra? Did Harmony take control of her to stop her talking to Wax, that seems unlikely since Harmony is big on free will and didn't stop her going against his plans earlier but I can't rule it out.

I have a hard time with the idea that Harmony is big on free will... the entire kandra population and the fact that Marsh was allowed to continue on (and perhaps collect more spikes) makes me question Harmony and not trust him.  Harmony being so benevolent that he fixed kolos allowing them to reproduce but then leaving the kandra as slaves... servitude to Harmony obviously doesn't fill the voids that comes with being immortal and this is evident in the fact that Kandra started dropping out their spikes and killing themselves... what a great shard to offer freedom to reproduce and be rid of the hemalurgic weakness to the monsters he fought against in the last battles but then keep the decendants from his ancestors in servitude of himself.  

I know Lessie wasn't in her right mind at the end of it all as Bleeder but Harmony getting into her mind was so bad she melted herself into a puddle of goo.  (That is assuming he didn't forcer her to hit the self destruct button...)   

And Harmony is not against using people for his own means... He was looking for a sword was he not?  Wax is just a tool for him to use just like Bleeder was just like all of the other Kandra are.  

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@Tamriel Wolfsbaine I'm curious, have you read Bands of Mourning yet? I know you were posting topics on Warbreaker while you were reading it, so I wanted to check if you've finished as much of the Wax and Wayne books as we currently have. There's more to this story.

If you don't trust Harmony, then technically anything a Kandra says is or does is suspect, but how do the other Kandra view Harmony? What lives do they live and what things do they do? Paalm's story is a tragic one, but she isn't the only Kandra, and she did start nailing people to walls. Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but there's a danger to only looking at a single story, even if it is the first or most memorable.

I don't know, maybe that's my issue, that I just hope that Sazed hasn't changed too much over the last 300 years as Harmony, and maybe I admire who he was too much to see him changing. The Kandra were the willing supporters of the Lord Ruler's plan to thwart Ruin, and TenSoon at least still considers himself a champion of Preservation, so I've thought that for the most part they voluntarily continued to protect Scadrial even after Harmony Ascended. There's whole philosophical debates that could be had over freedom and if it needs limitations or methods to get people to do something that preserves free will and if that has limitations. Bringing those up could have this topic explode like some of the other threads though.

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25 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine I'm curious, have you read Bands of Mourning yet? I know you were posting topics on Warbreaker while you were reading it, so I wanted to check if you've finished as much of the Wax and Wayne books as we currently have. There's more to this story.

If you don't trust Harmony, then technically anything a Kandra says is or does is suspect, but how do the other Kandra view Harmony? What lives do they live and what things do they do? Paalm's story is a tragic one, but she isn't the only Kandra, and she did start nailing people to walls. Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but there's a danger to only looking at a single story, even if it is the first or most memorable.

I don't know, maybe that's my issue, that I just hope that Sazed hasn't changed too much over the last 300 years as Harmony, and maybe I admire who he was too much to see him changing. The Kandra were the willing supporters of the Lord Ruler's plan to thwart Ruin, and TenSoon at least still considers himself a champion of Preservation, so I've thought that for the most part they voluntarily continued to protect Scadrial even after Harmony Ascended. There's whole philosophical debates that could be had over freedom and if it needs limitations or methods to get people to do something that preserves free will and if that has limitations. Bringing those up could have this topic explode like some of the other threads though.

I have read bands.  Though, admittedly, I was extremely ill during the back half and don't remember all of it.  

I do wish Sazed was the same Sazed we knew... but 300 years of holding onto 2 shards who oppose eachother certainly can't be good for him.  

I remember his conversation with Wax and him giving Wax a choice but even in that moment the choice was "you can be done and all your friends are going to be tortured and killed but at least you won't have to suffer anymore... or you can keep working towards my goal and go be the sword I need."   

I think it is interesting how Vin had to come to terms with only being a knife.  Poor Wax is going to have to come to terms with being the saber that Harmony gets to rattle.   I am confused by that too though.  Why choose Wax as your champion when Marsh is far more equipped to do it?   I could be missing a lot here and I am open to my mind being changed (plus I am not all that committed to the idea that Harmony isn't such a great shard).  I just don't get why harmony wouldn't free the kandra the way he did the kolos... I would love to see that answered in the next book.  Maybe the kandra get to live their lives in large as they want. It doesn't change the fact that harmony chose to keep them on a leash and with a blink of the eye can take control of his spies.   If the part of harmony that is ruin were to grow and start to take over the choice to keep the kandra in servitude could easily leave the kandra revisiting the idea of the need for "the resolution".  

The idea of freeing half of your slaves but keeping the second half is worse than just keeping them all.  Harmony realized the kolos should be free, but chose to keep the kandra and their weakness.  He came from a slave population... not as bad for them as for the skaa but still... how would we all as readers have taken it if he said skaa could be free but the Terris needed to stay in servitude of the nobility and if they didn't like it they could just kill themselves?   I don't see a difference between that and what happened with the kolos and kandra.  

I am admittedly bias... the kandra are my favorite monsters of all time... the thought of playing as a kandra and the gods being and to snap their fingers and use you as a puppet spooks me out.  I feel a far worse fate than being smited by a diety would be getting forced to do things I don't agree with.  

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@Tamriel Wolfsbaine I reread the Coppermind on Koloss, and I'm not convinced that full Koloss can't still be taken over by emotional Allomancy. After the Ascension, they were changed to be able to breed and their children were given the choice to accept the ritual spikes to become full Koloss. I suspect any Hemalurgic creature with spikes still has that weakness. I don't know enough about Hemalurgy to know if it's possible to have a Kandra still be a Kandra without spikes, and not just a Mistwraith, since Mistwraiths are physiologically more different from humans than cows are. Is there something that I missed that states that spiked Koloss no longer have the holes in the soul that emotional Allomancy can affect?

I'm pretty sure the spikes are also what allows Harmony to communicate with the Kandra as readily as he does. They are effective agents because of the spikes, and I'm not sure how they would communicate directly without Hemalurgy.

I can't fully judge this because I don't know the options that Sazed had or has, but I'm not sure if the disparity between Koloss and Kandra are as great as it looks. Sazed might have been able to restore the Kandra to their former state as Feruchemists, but that might have destroyed the Kandra race.

On the other hand, it might be safe to say that Sazed still has the capacity to move the entire planet to a different orbit, fix the genetic manipulations made to humanity, and restructure the geography of the world, something that was possible just with power at the Well of Ascension. So far, I haven't seen him break out the heavy artillery, but if he wanted to hold the planet hostage, I think he could. If Sazed was really determined to blow someone up and didn't care about collateral damage, I don't know any Scadrian that could stop him. I just think he almost always chooses not to. Kandra just have a more obvious handle than most. I guess... if the question is why didn't Sazed remove his ability to influence the Kandra, can you think of a way for him to actually completely remove his influence from them? I'm not sure if he can and remain a Shard invested into Scadrial. I definitely think that if Sazed maintained an entirely hands-off approach, Trell certainly wouldn't. 

I don't know. Maybe at his Ascension Sazed didn't think 300 years ahead, and the Kandra at the time didn't feel a need to change anything, whereas the Koloss wanted to be more human. For the most part Sazed seemed to try to revert things back to what they were before The Lord Ruler as recorded in his copperminds. Seeing the ways that Vin and Rashek nearly wrecked the planet, I assume they didn't gain an immediate understanding of the future, the intricate details of hemalurgy, or suddenly be able to override the laws that govern the Cosmere. I don't think Sazed did either.

Again, this all speculation. The context that you describe does make sense, and if accurate definitely should be cause for concern. I do think there is more detail that explains Harmony's motives surrounding Lessie in Bands of Morning, and I don't think Wax's decision was under that much duress since Marasi at that point had the Bands of Mourning (though it's not obvious if Wax knew that. Marasi certainly was shouting at him to heal himself with the Bands). Sazed actually made Wax reconfirm the choice to come back to life, and that seems an odd decision if he was trying to force Wax into becoming his sword. Then again, maybe I'm biased too. I'm currently rereading Mistborn era 1 and Sazed is pretty awesome back then.

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2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The idea of freeing half of your slaves but keeping the second half is worse than just keeping them all.  Harmony realized the kolos should be free, but chose to keep the kandra and their weakness.  He came from a slave population... not as bad for them as for the skaa but still... how would we all as readers have taken it if he said skaa could be free but the Terris needed to stay in servitude of the nobility and if they didn't like it they could just kill themselves?   I don't see a difference between that and what happened with the kolos and kandra.  

I am admittedly bias... the kandra are my favorite monsters of all time... the thought of playing as a kandra and the gods being and to snap their fingers and use you as a puppet spooks me out.  I feel a far worse fate than being smited by a diety would be getting forced to do things I don't agree with.  

You assume anybody had a choice; when it is just as likely that at the time that Sazed "fixed" the Koloss, the only option open to Harmony and the Kandra was:

  • "Lose your spikes and become Mistwraiths  - or - keep your spikes and sapience, but you will have 'the flaw.'"
52 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine 

I'm pretty sure the spikes are also what allows Harmony to communicate with the Kandra as readily as he does. They are effective agents because of the spikes, and I'm not sure how they would communicate directly without Hemalurgy.

I can't fully judge this because I don't know the options that Sazed had or has, but I'm not sure if the disparity between Koloss and Kandra are as great as it looks. Sazed might have been able to restore the Kandra to their former state as Feruchemists, but that might have destroyed the Kandra race.

Didn't Harmony allude to this in the Words of Founding 

Quote

One might think that kandra are changed most of all. However, one must remember that new kandra are made from mistwraiths, and not humans. The spikes worn by the kandra cause only a small transformation in their hosts—leaving their bodies mostly like that of a mistwraith, but allowing their minds to begin working. Ironically, while the spikes dehumanize the koloss, they give a measure of humanity to the kandra. 

So, removing spikes from Koloss could return some measure of humanity that was lost; but removing spikes from Kandra would just rip their minds out and turn them back into Mistwraiths. Also, despite Mistwriaths having been created by Rashek from Feruchemists; I doubt that any Kandra/mistwraith alive (except the First Generation; if they survived the Resolution) had ever been Human so he couldn't just "return their humanity." 

Also, we don't know if there was a choice or not. Maybe Sazed was able to allow Kandra wearing bones to become fully human again in the body they currently wore and that is why the Kandra population is so small now. These are the Kandra who chose to remain Kandra (even if some, like Paalm, later come to regret the choice).

Do we even have a canon answer as to what happened to the first and second generation?

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6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You assume anybody had a choice; when it is just as likely that at the time that Sazed "fixed" the Koloss, the only option open to Harmony and the Kandra was:

  • "Lose your spikes and become Mistwraiths  - or - keep your spikes and sapience, but you will have 'the flaw.'"

I certainly think that if Rashek with the power from the well for a few minutes was able to change humans into mistwraiths then Sazed with the full power of 2 shards should be able to reverse it... or find a way to give all mistwraiths sentience at least?  

7 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I don't know. Maybe at his Ascension Sazed didn't think 300 years ahead, and the Kandra at the time didn't feel a need to change anything, whereas the Koloss wanted to be more human. For the most part Sazed seemed to try to revert things back to what they were before The Lord Ruler as recorded in his copperminds. Seeing the ways that Vin and Rashek nearly wrecked the planet, I assume they didn't gain an immediate understanding of the future, the intricate details of hemalurgy, or suddenly be able to override the laws that govern the Cosmere. I don't think Sazed did either.

This honestly got me thinking... if a kandra were to be given a returned divine breath... would they heal back to a human or just a mistwraith?  Would one of the first generation go back to being a feruchemist and being a mortal?  

 

I feel like we don't know enough of how and what made a mistwraith a mistwraith... do the mistwraiths made today through normal mistwraith breeding still have the makeup that the first mistwraiths did that ties them to the human family?   

Again I am sure that if Rashek had the power to make a mistwraith then it only makes sense for Harmony to have the power to switch it back. 

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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Again I am sure that if Rashek had the power to make a mistwraith then it only makes sense for Harmony to have the power to switch it back. 

I can see what you are saying, but I don't come to the same conclusion as you have made. But I concur that we don't know enough to make informed deductions; we can only theorize based on the information we do have.  We know:

  • Leras needed to sacrifice part of his power to make sapient humans on Scadrial
  • Rashek created a previously unknown non-sapient species (mistwraiths) from the living Feruchemists when he had the power of the well
    • He also devised a way to return sapience to the First Generation with Hemalurgy
  • Rashek adapted human physiology to live with the ash
  • Sazed needed guidelines (from the religious writings) to return human physiology to its pre-ash state
    • Sazed was able to restore non-sapient species based on his writings and knowledge

To me, this means that, in theory, Mistwraiths/Kandra that were previously human might have been returned to their former state. However Mistwraiths/Kandra that had never been human would have needed "more" to become sapient humans (or even a sapient non-human species) without Hemalurgy. Further, we don't know that he didn't return humanity to the First Generation, since we don't really know what happened to the first and second generation after HoA, but before AoL. It would seem that making/adjusting a sapient species is harder/requires more power that simply making non-sapient animal and plant life.

Maybe he could have made the Kandra a sapient species by sacrificing more of Preservation's power; but that would have left him imbalanced (further imbalanced?) between his Ruin and Preservation halves. Maybe he did do such a thing, and the remaining Kandra are the ones who chose to remain as they had always been.  Short of RAFO or a WoB, I don't think we can ever know; and without knowing the fate of the Firsts and Seconds*, it is hard to reach any definitive conclusions.

I have no problems with your conclusions. Until I learn otherwise, though, my head-canon is that the Firsts were returned to humanity to help rebuild the Terris population; but Kandra who had not previously been human could not be offered Sapience-without-Hemalurgy without endangering the balance of Harmony.

 

*Note: Though I really hope KanPaar lived the rest of a really short life as a mindless mistwraith

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11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I have no problems with your conclusions. Until I learn otherwise, though, my head-canon is that the Firsts were returned to humanity to help rebuild the Terris population; but Kandra who had not previously been human could not be offered Sapience-without-Hemalurgy without endangering the balance of Harmony.

For sure.  It's just some thoughts I have had.  Admittedly my bias pokes it's head out when it comes to the Kandra.  I don't think Sazed went all bad and I actually really feel for him too.  That dude stepped up to the plate for sure.  I honestly don't think anyone in their right mind would willingly choose to become a shard... let alone be willing to take on two conflicting shards.  Harmony definately is not the same Sazed we saw in era 1.   He certainly isn't all bad... in fact I am sure the homie is doing the best that he can with what he was handed.  

I have also theorized that TLR was most likely near his breaking point and really welcomed his demise to Vins hands.  Being immortal and surrounded by people who hate you (or simply don't believe in you in the case of a shard) must take its toll.  I like the idea that the Kandra are willingly working with Harmony and that they are not being controlled in everything.   

But we can't forget that half of what Sazed is carrying literally took control over everything with a spike and tried to end the world with zero regard to what they were.   As far as preservation goes... preservation is not necessarily a great thing.  People try to preserve things at some ridiculous costs all the time... let's sacrifice all of our agriculture and double the price of food and leave shelves empty in the name of "preservation".   

The fact that all shards are so far to their sides is what makes the cosmere so dang good though.  It isn't one God who has a good balance of everything.  Instead its planets full of mortals trying to exist with gods over their planets that are totally radical (to the point of destruction) in whatever emotion or notion that shard is of.  Just imagine when a shard dies it really has a huge effect on the mortals.  I am a huge fan of cultivation from a progression point of view.  I love how much better life can be with change but not all change is good for humanity and looking at the way shards work cultivation likely wouldn't care what the outcomes are just as long as change is happening.  

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Well, we also have to consider that a Shard's vessel influences the Shard to some extent, at least early on. Eventually the vessel will be subsumed by the Shard's intent.  I doubt there was much of Ati left by the time Ruin was working toward ending Scadrial

I try to avoid the "Preservation = Good; Ruin = Evil" thought process because I don't think Shardic intents are inherently good or bad - like any tool it is how they are (ab)used. I do think, however, that Sazed has the potential to be better than Leras/Ati - if only because by holding two Shards, he has the potential to lean toward the intent that has the best result for Scadrial (and so far, his actions seem to be for the benefit of Scarial if not for the benefit of the people being manipulated). For that reason alone, I doubt Harmony would ever end up as Ati was after being released from the well.

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1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Well, we also have to consider that a Shard's vessel influences the Shard to some extent, at least early on. Eventually the vessel will be subsumed by the Shard's intent.  I doubt there was much of Ati left by the time Ruin was working toward ending Scadrial

I try to avoid the "Preservation = Good; Ruin = Evil" thought process because I don't think Shardic intents are inherently good or bad - like any tool it is how they are (ab)used. I do think, however, that Sazed has the potential to be better than Leras/Ati - if only because by holding two Shards, he has the potential to lean toward the intent that has the best result for Scadrial (and so far, his actions seem to be for the benefit of Scarial if not for the benefit of the people being manipulated). For that reason alone, I doubt Harmony would ever end up as Ati was after being released from the well.

100% agree that there is no good or evil shard in scadrial (perhaps the entire cosmere).  There are shards who are going to aid the mortals on the planet and those who wont... but how much and which shards are working in the mortals interest is a bit of a moving scale.  Sazed is doing the best he can see how.   

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I agree that each Shard with its intent isn't necessarily good or evil, but there are some intents that are probably far more likely to cause issues for humanity, and because of that humanity may continue to look at them within that context (at least in the "stop the thing that is trying to kill me" basic decision making). From a storytelling perspective, Brandon can totally make Shards antagonists without making them irrevocably evil. Some spoilers for Stormlight, that this conversation made me think of:

Spoiler

Ati was once a kind and generous man.https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ati#cite_note-The_Way_of_Kings-chapter-18-epigraph-7https://wob.coppermind.net/events/317/#e10334. I wonder if he deliberately took the Shard of Ruin to try to contain it, deliberately pairing himself with Preservation to restrict and balance the power. 

You can have evil people become Shards and cause havoc, you also can have good people subsumed by the Shardic Intent. You also can have highly aggressive people curbed by the limitations of their power and Shardic Intent. I think as @Treamayne said, Sazed has a better chance of leaning towards one way or another to support life on Scadrial because of the duality of his power.

 

That's all to do with the options and ramifications of the possible choices that Harmony had, but I've been thinking and there's a couple more factors I can think of for Lessie's actions. We learn from Secret History a few things.

Spoiler

Namely that Shards might be able to see nearly everything, but their attention is finite. We see just how closely a Shard can watch a specific person, even noticing a nearby Cognitive Shadow.

If Paalm knew that Harmony's attention would be on Wax, then she probably knew that she wouldn't be able to get close to him in any guise without Harmony knowing. My current guess/head cannon is that she accepted the Trellium spike initially as a method of hiding from Harmony so that she could get close to Wax, simply because she loved him. Hiding in plain sight could appeal to a Kandra. However once she accepted it into herself, the spike warped her, making her obsessed with freedom and freeing Wax. One of the current theories for the origin of that spike is:

Spoiler

That it is from Autonomy, per the Coppermind article on Trellium. Power infused with the Intent of Freedom, particularly as the sole anchor for your sanity and sapience, could explain why someone who loves another so dearly ends up creating elaborate plans involving sabotaging an economy, killing people as a mass murderer, lying to their loved one's face as a governor imposter, all with the goal of freeing them from the influence of another Shard.

Paalm's story is tragic, but I think she was manipulated into what she became and did. It's hard to say what was her choice and what wasn't, in the same way that it would be tricky to rule on lawbreaking influenced by emotional allomancy.

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On 4/30/2022 at 7:24 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I certainly think that if Rashek with the power from the well for a few minutes was able to change humans into mistwraiths then Sazed with the full power of 2 shards should be able to reverse it... or find a way to give all mistwraiths sentience at least? 

Marasi mentions at one point that mistwraiths are thought to be extinct since the Catacendre. Maybe Sazed did turn them human (though that would wreck the best Kelsier-body theory).

I agree that Harmony isn't necessarily good - he's Ruin as well as Preservation. I definitely question some of his choices (ignoring Southern Scadrial when it was freezing right after the Catacendre, and leaving koloss with their bursting-skin/fatal-growth problems... even if he would see it as a loss to turn them human again, I'd think he could cap their growth at nonfatal levels).

However, I do think he's trying, that his intent is generally good and that he is aware of the Shardic influence on his mind and trying to work around it.

I don't think *he* considers the kandra to be slaves, and I don't think non-Paalm kandra see it that way either.

I thought the kandra agreed to work for Harmony - do we even know if that was Harmony's idea or the kandra's own? The Hero of Ages was part of *their* religion (the former Terris one) after all- becoming his followers would seem to be a natural choice, at least for the "loyal" ones (not sure about the Second Generation ones who took over - did they get re-spiked like the others?)

The fact Harmony can control their minds isn't his fault-  it's just the result of him holding Ruin and them being a Hemalurgic species. He doesn't seem to use that power except in very extreme circumstances.

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On 5/3/2022 at 0:07 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I agree that Harmony isn't necessarily good - he's Ruin as well as Preservation. I definitely question some of his choices (ignoring Southern Scadrial when it was freezing right after the Catacendre, and leaving koloss with their bursting-skin/fatal-growth problems... even if he would see it as a loss to turn them human again, I'd think he could cap their growth at nonfatal levels).

I think at some point it becomes a question of when Harmony takes away consequences.

Southern Scadrial froze, yes, but it became far more technologically advanced than Elendel. Either VenDell or MeLaan noted that Harmony was worried that perhaps he had made it too easy for them, and that they weren't progressing as fast as they needed to be without challenges. Who got the short end of the stick? The people who froze and innovated until they could manufacture metalborn powers and fly, or the barbarians that live in an eternally fertile city?

As for the koloss, new generations are specifically given the choice to accept the ritual spikes and become a full koloss or to remain closer to humans. They choose that life style, even though it is certainly going to kill them. From that standpoint, it seems like a similar decision to removing the consequences of drug use or overeating. Just because I think it's nuts to choose to become a koloss with all the baggage doesn't mean other people don't want to. 

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On 4/30/2022 at 11:08 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am admittedly bias... the kandra are my favorite monsters of all time... the thought of playing as a kandra and the gods being and to snap their fingers and use you as a puppet spooks me out.  I feel a far worse fate than being smited by a diety would be getting forced to do things I don't agree with.  

Harmony CAN do that to the kandra, and for that matter, to Marsh, as Ruin had done (or for that matter, a suitably charged-up Soother or Rioter might be able to do). But, as a rule, He does not (as Marsh notes, "his particular beliefs require that he allow [Marsh to think and to act differently than He would prefer]").

He's generally in close contact with the kandra, it would seem - all of them appear to be able to two-way-chat with God at any time - but that doesn't mean he "puppets" them often, or hardly at all. He doesn't always reply to the kandra's questions, either (such as when he mentioned things like "moving pictures" being in the future, as "you'll find out when it happens" or some such).

When Bloody Tan pulls Lessie into the path of Wax's bullet, was that Harmony's act on Tan or "puppeting" Lessie? And he certainly had a lax enough grip on Lessie for her to go off and acquire that foreign godmetal spike, however that was done, without knowing what was going on.

And when Lessie says "he's in my head again!" after Wax shoots her with the hemalurgic bullet, it "lets" Harmony seize control of her again. As in, it enabled him to do so. Which is enough of a "sword of Damocles" over her head for her to kill herself over, at that point.

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On 5/5/2022 at 10:15 AM, Duxredux said:

I think at some point it becomes a question of when Harmony takes away consequences.

Southern Scadrial froze, yes, but it became far more technologically advanced than Elendel. Either VenDell or MeLaan noted that Harmony was worried that perhaps he had made it too easy for them, and that they weren't progressing as fast as they needed to be without challenges. Who got the short end of the stick? The people who froze and innovated until they could manufacture metalborn powers and fly, or the barbarians that live in an eternally fertile city?

As for the koloss, new generations are specifically given the choice to accept the ritual spikes and become a full koloss or to remain closer to humans. They choose that life style, even though it is certainly going to kill them. From that standpoint, it seems like a similar decision to removing the consequences of drug use or overeating. Just because I think it's nuts to choose to become a koloss with all the baggage doesn't mean other people don't want to. 

Hmmm, good point. Though I think they're asked to choose very young... but perhaps that custom was decided on by the first post Catacendre koloss generation, and Harmony likely wouldn't interfere.

It didn't occur to me that the koloss as a society could choose to stop asking future generations to take spikes, or at least stop exiling those who refuse, and become a society of or partly of koloss blooded humans.

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