Hemalurgy and genetics?

[clockknight]

So, we know that mistborns are a thing of the past because the genes of allomancers and feruchemists are mixed and diluted, compared to 300 years ago. However, feruchemy can grant someone misting and ferring powers. Is there anything that states whether someone going through hemalurgy to become a mistborn or full feruchemist could reintroduce those power to the population? I understand that hemalurgy works by affecting spiritwebs, but i dont remember anything stating outright if that was involved directly or indirectly with genetics, especially with those related with investiture.

[Turbonator]

I think the closest confirmation is this: 

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zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

 

[clockknight]

Thanks for that! I searched but I couldn't find an answer myself.

[+ShardlessVessel]

On 05/04/2022 at 7:02 PM, clockknight said:

So, we know that mistborns are a thing of the past because the genes of allomancers and feruchemists are mixed and diluted, compared to 300 years ago. However, feruchemy can grant someone misting and ferring powers. Is there anything that states whether someone going through hemalurgy to become a mistborn or full feruchemist could reintroduce those power to the population? I understand that hemalurgy works by affecting spiritwebs, but i dont remember anything stating outright if that was involved directly or indirectly with genetics, especially with those related with investiture.

The trouble here, in my opinion, is that we don't know what the difference between a Mistborn and a Misting, or a Keeper and a Ferring is in terms of sDNA.

A person that is born with only one power may have a completely different sDNA when compared to a person that is born with all of them; that is, there could be one "gene" for each Allomantic ability and then another one entirely that makes you Mistborn. If you stole the power from 16 different Mistings and put them all in one person, then that person's children could inherit one of those assorted misting "genes" but not the proper Mistborn "gene" that would grant them all at once. Conversely, you can steal individual powers from a Mistborn, implying that they possess all 16 "genes" and not a single unique "gene".

That was a bit rambly, so I'm sorry if I'm not making sense. Basically, I speculate that an Inquisitor cannot have Mistborn children because their spiritweb is a patchwork as opposed to a proper Mistborn, but I do not think it's possible to be sure unless Brandon can give us more detailed information on why exactly you can't be born with e.g. three powers instead of either one or sixteen. And we also don't really know what "sDNA" means; it probably has nothing to do with actual genes, and more to do with Connection.

[Lego Mistborn]

4 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

The trouble here, in my opinion, is that we don't know what the difference between a Mistborn and a Misting, or a Keeper and a Ferring is in terms of sDNA.

A person that is born with only one power may have a completely different sDNA when compared to a person that is born with all of them; that is, there could be one "gene" for each Allomantic ability and then another one entirely that makes you Mistborn. If you stole the power from 16 different Mistings and put them all in one person, then that person's children could inherit one of those assorted misting "genes" but not the proper Mistborn "gene" that would grant them all at once. Conversely, you can steal individual powers from a Mistborn, implying that they possess all 16 "genes" and not a single unique "gene".

That was a bit rambly, so I'm sorry if I'm not making sense. Basically, I speculate that an Inquisitor cannot have Mistborn children because their spiritweb is a patchwork as opposed to a proper Mistborn, but I do not think it's possible to be sure unless Brandon can give us more detailed information on why exactly you can't be born with e.g. three powers instead of either one or sixteen. And we also don't really know what "sDNA" means; it probably has nothing to do with actual genes, and more to do with Connection.

My belief is that spiritual DNA works like regular DNA, and for mistings and ferrings each, there are 16 genes, one for each metal, but if multiple are turned on, they are ful. The other alternative is that some metals are dominant to others, but that seems unlikely as it appears that all varieties of mistings/ferrings are in rougly equal frequencies.

[cometaryorbit]

Don't the HoA epigraphs say that if you use one of the spikes that steals a Quadrant of powers, it's the bind point in the recipient that determines which power? (e.g. getting Allomantic Steel rather than Iron, Pewter, or Tin)

So I'm not sure it's as simple as 16 genes*, unless the spike steals 4 at a time. And I don't think the type of Allomancy is necessarily genetic, judging from Straff's illegitimate children not being mostly Tineyes. The specific power a Misting gets might be random or determined in a non-genetic way.

*Also, Mistborn can burn other stuff like god-metal alloys. And apparently they can try to burn non-valid metals, though it sickens or kills them rather than giving power? Still, the burning itself would be a magical effect of sorts...

[+ShardlessVessel]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And apparently they can try to burn non-valid metals, though it sickens or kills them rather than giving power?

My impression has been that they can't burn metals that are completely invalid (e.g. silver), only impure metals, which Mistings should also be able to burn.

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Don't the HoA epigraphs say that if you use one of the spikes that steals a Quadrant of powers, it's the bind point in the recipient that determines which power?

That is correct.

Spoiler

In Hemalurgy, the type of metal used in a spike is important, as is the positioning of that spike on the body. For instance, steel spikes take physical Allomantic powers—the ability to burn pewter, tin, steel, or iron—and bestow them upon the person receiving the spike. Which of these four is granted, however, depends on where the spike is placed.

 

[Duxredux]

I've been digging and there's several WoBs that address this. It looks like people have been asking this exact question, and he's given varying negative and positive answers. If it's possible, in order to get the best odds there might be more steps than just get spiked and have kids.

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Questioner

*inaudible question relating to Hemalurgy*

Brandon Sanderson

So Hemalurgy... Yes, to an extent. The koloss are an example of this. Koloss are made, but then they can be passed on a little bit. You get koloss *inaudible* koloss. So it doesn't quite work exactly, but some things can be passed on.

Questioner

Do the *inaudible* get passed on?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh... Not necessarily. They're not still pierced by metal.

Questioner

Apparently they use Hemalurgic *inaudible* bloodline to the point where there's Mistborn again?

Brandon Sanderson

This is something that people in-world are wondering.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Really wish we knew what the inaudible sections are, but it's clearly related.

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Questioner

If you have a series of Inquisitors, like a family of Inquisitors having children for generations over...

Brandon Sanderson

Would the Hemalurgy influence the sDNA of the children? Is that what you are asking? That is a hypothesis that has merit in the way the magic system works (grin). It is not a supposition to be discarded out of hand.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

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Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

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Questioner

I wondered if an Inquisitor had children, if they would inherit stronger Inquisitor abilities, or if they would just inherit the lesser lines from being a Seeker, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. I don't think I've ever been asked this before... The way Hemalurgy works, if you're not aware, you are taking someone else's soul, and you are basically nailing it to your soul... That won't affect the children. So you will have the weaker lines.

They have tried that. Unfortunately.

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Would Inquisitors' kids have Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not usually. It happens sometimes, but not usually. He then mentioned a little about sDNA, but that it's not inherited as much as it is when it's natural.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

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Questioner

You’ve spoken before how DNA exists on multiple different levels in your magic systems. I was curious about something else that I think I read that that the Hemalurgy system actually splices something into the DNA - so what does that imply for heritability of those?

Brandon Sanderson

So, it is not inheritable when it's Hemalurgic because it's splicing. It's basically ripping off a piece of the soul and spiking it on someone else's. So, it would not transfer.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Duxredux
Added another thought

[+ShardlessVessel]

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Really wish we knew what the inaudible sections are, but it's clearly related.

Sounds like a question about koloss-blooded people to me.

As for the rest, here are my impressions:

Firstly, I think there's a Physical component to the genetics of the Metallic Arts. If there's an actual set of chromosomes that is associated with the Spiritual component that gives Allomancy/Feruchemy, then just splicing the spiritual "gene" may not be enough to pass on the ability to children.

Secondly, and possibly alternatively, spiking may not actually merge the stolen soul piece into the spiritweb. It would be like holding Breaths: it changes you in significant ways, but the Breath/spike is not actually a part of you. This is actually evidenced, to me, by the fact that you can safely pull out a spike (your mileage may vary on that) to swap powers.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, ShardlessVessel said:

Secondly, and possibly alternatively, spiking may not actually merge the stolen soul piece into the spiritweb.

That's how I read it. It's integrated enough to give the power but not integrated enough to be hereditary.

There must be some hereditary effect, since koloss-blooded exist (as the first WoB says), but maybe it's not directly related to the individual powers given by Hemalurgy (per the later WoBs).

Koloss are 'Hemalurgic constructs', a different 'species' in a sense, not just humans with new powers. So are Inquisitors. So maybe the idea is that Inquisitor/human hybrids have some effects/differences from 100% human, but it's not "greater chance of Allomancy" (some would be Allomancers anyway since Inquisitors are generally made from Seeker Mistings, thus "it happens sometimes").

[Duxredux]

I think... I think maybe there's a difference between the way the soul is warped by getting spiked with power, and the power itself that's stapled on. Maybe physiological changes are more likely to become genetically heritable? I think a way to check this is if the vital organ placement of the children of Inquisitors has changed or not. I could see that the intrinsic warping of the soul can potentially change your sDNA in a heritable way, but the soul that got stapled on won't get passed on? I'm stretching, and I think Brandon may not have a solid answer yet or maybe he changed his mind. The WoBs from 2013 and 2019 seem to contradict each other to me.

[Trusk'our]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:49 AM, ShardlessVessel said:

Firstly, I think there's a Physical component to the genetics of the Metallic Arts. If there's an actual set of chromosomes that is associated with the Spiritual component that gives Allomancy/Feruchemy, then just splicing the spiritual "gene" may not be enough to pass on the ability to children.

Secondly, and possibly alternatively, spiking may not actually merge the stolen soul piece into the spiritweb. It would be like holding Breaths: it changes you in significant ways, but the Breath/spike is not actually a part of you. This is actually evidenced, to me, by the fact that you can safely pull out a spike (your mileage may vary on that) to swap powers.

 

On 5/18/2022 at 11:49 AM, cometaryorbit said:

That's how I read it. It's integrated enough to give the power but not integrated enough to be hereditary.

There must be some hereditary effect, since koloss-blooded exist (as the first WoB says), but maybe it's not directly related to the individual powers given by Hemalurgy (per the later WoBs).

Koloss are 'Hemalurgic constructs', a different 'species' in a sense, not just humans with new powers. So are Inquisitors. So maybe the idea is that Inquisitor/human hybrids have some effects/differences from 100% human, but it's not "greater chance of Allomancy" (some would be Allomancers anyway since Inquisitors are generally made from Seeker Mistings, thus "it happens sometimes").

 

On 5/18/2022 at 11:49 AM, cometaryorbit said:

That's how I read it. It's integrated enough to give the power but not integrated enough to be hereditary.

There must be some hereditary effect, since koloss-blooded exist (as the first WoB says), but maybe it's not directly related to the individual powers given by Hemalurgy (per the later WoBs).

Koloss are 'Hemalurgic constructs', a different 'species' in a sense, not just humans with new powers. So are Inquisitors. So maybe the idea is that Inquisitor/human hybrids have some effects/differences from 100% human, but it's not "greater chance of Allomancy" (some would be Allomancers anyway since Inquisitors are generally made from Seeker Mistings, thus "it happens sometimes").

You know, I had not considered that. I had always assumed that by getting Hemalurgic spikes stappled to you would be like integrating them to your own Spiritweb, making the traits in the spikes be passed down to future generations.

I had mostly assumed this based on the fact that Koloss are able to pass on certain traits granted via Hemalurgy to their children, but if that is only because the Koloss were physically changed enough become a new species, that would make more sense; only the warping of your Spiritweb would be passed down, not the Connections or powers themselves. That would also likely mean that the "complications" related to Steel Inquisitors having children would likely be related to their organs being in the wrong places, not that they would gain any extra powers, which would not be beneficial.

Your theories would also be supported by the fact that burning a Hemalurgic spike splices your sDNA with that of the spike, so that likely isn't done simply by implanting the spike into you.

Though that does make me wonder; if you were to burn the spikes and splice your sDNA, would that make the powers be more likely to be passed down? Would perhaps some of the complications be that you would physically change appearance to fit with that of the person that the spike was made from, since your spiritual aspect is being actively altered?

[Trusk'our]

The theory would also explain why resonances aren't usually generated by Hemalurgy; a resonance is formed by the powers you possess saturating and slightly altering your Spiritweb, but Hemalurgic spikes wouldn't grant that because they are separate from your own Spiritweb, even if they are linked to yours in order for you to gain access to their power.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 5/21/2022 at 5:00 PM, Trusk'our said:

Though that does make me wonder; if you were to burn the spikes and splice your sDNA, would that make the powers be more likely to be passed down? Would perhaps some of the complications be that you would physically change appearance to fit with that of the person that the spike was made from, since your spiritual aspect is being actively altered?

Idea: Use Hemalurgy to gain one of the 16 powers, then (this may require a second spike) burn the spike to splice it to your soul (burning the entire thing is most likely not necessary). Remove the spike once burnt and rinse and repeat until you've spliced all 16. Then go wild, have as many kids as you can, then cross your fingers, wait, and see. If any are Mistborn (as you now should be), arrange for them to marry people who can trace their lineage back to Spook and hope for your ploy to work out.

I always saw Allomancy as 1 'gene' that dilutes and fractures the more it's mixed with the 'genes' of Non-Allomancers. It's a single gene that causes all 17 forms of Allomancy, the strength of it just determines the likelihood of having one power vs having all of them: For example, in Era 2 the genes are diluted to the point of only Mistings being born (Although Brandon has said that Mistborn may have been born after the Catacendre and just never made it public, so there may still be a slight chance as of Era 2), whereas, during Kelsier's era, it was still potent enough that some Mistborn were born, given that even though Marsh is only a Seeker, Kelsier himself is still born as one, and the chances of being born as a Mistborn were much, much higher following Rashek's Ascension, given that the 'gene' for Allomancy would be almost entirely pure back then.

As for what the gene is, it might simply be Connection to Preservation, being diluted with each generation.

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Idea: Use Hemalurgy to gain one of the 16 powers, then (this may require a second spike) burn the spike to splice it to your soul (burning the entire thing is most likely not necessary). Remove the spike once burnt and rinse and repeat until you've spliced all 16. Then go wild, have as many kids as you can, then cross your fingers, wait, and see. If any are Mistborn (as you now should be), arrange for them to marry people who can trace their lineage back to Spook and hope for your ploy to work out.

That won't work, burning spikes is painful, not identity compatible (it's like burning someone else's metalmind) and doesn't grant you powers that this spike has stolen.

Spoiler

17th Shard

Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard

Would they be able to tap?

Brandon Sanderson

Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would you be able to get any kind of additional power from burning a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be power there, but you wouldn’t be able to access it. Like burning someone else’s metalmind.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

This WoB is a more recent one than splicing WoB.

Spoiler

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

Just now, alder24 said:

That won't work, burning spikes is painful, not identity compatible (it's like burning someone else's metalmind) and doesn't grant you powers that this spike has stolen.

  Hide contents

17th Shard

Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard

Would they be able to tap?

Brandon Sanderson

Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

 

  Hide contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would you be able to get any kind of additional power from burning a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be power there, but you wouldn’t be able to access it. Like burning someone else’s metalmind.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

This WoB is a more recent one than splicing WoB.

  Hide contents

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

I was about to say it could work if you force the victim to blank their Identity before you spike them but that last one nailed that one in the head.

Sighs Well, back to the drawing board. I'll stick to Hemalurgic Beavers for now.

[Trusk'our]

23 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I was about to say it could work if you force the victim to blank their Identity before you spike them but that last one nailed that one in the head.

It does make me wonder what would happen.

We know that it would do something with splicing your sDNA to that of the spike, but if it doesn't graft powers onto your Spiritweb, I'm not sure what it would do.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/210/#e4616

Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to RAFO