Battle of champions. (I spent way too much time thinking about this topic, and here is the result)

[slavagh]

Hi everyone! This is my first post.

The weird thing about the setup of this battle is how relatively low the stakes are. No matter the outcome, Dalinar has already won. (Even Wit said that to Odium). The stakes basically are Alethkar, Herdas, and Dalinar’s soul. For us, the audience, the stakes are whether one of the heroes that we care about can die.  When Taravangian took the shard, the stakes for Odium became even lower. His goal was always to save Roshar and now he basically has the power to end this war. For him, the outcome of this fight is even more meaningless than for Raise.

The second weird thing is Taravangian-Odium thought about Raise being maneuvered into this deal: “The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control”. And literally the next sentence: “It can still be done”. And something about subtle possibilities. Both outcomes of the fight are unsatisfying for him. I think Taravangian really wants the same thing the Raise did: to be free of Honors restrictions. This is the outcome that he is looking for.

Chapter Terms has this interesting bit:

 “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

I think this is the loophole that Odium will try to exploit. I see three possibilities here:

1) Dalinar refuses to become Fused (a very boring possibility)

2) Dalinar refuses to kill his opponent (child, Gavilar, etc). Terms are strict about the killing part.

3) Dalinar is not a champion but intervenes in the fight.

The third option is the one I want to speculate on the most. Who will be Dalinar’s champion if not himself?

I am leaning toward Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Kaladin. He doesn’t need explanations. As for Adolin. Well, he is the best duelist. And from the narrative perspective, Adolin being chosen by Dalinar as his champion will be a very satisfying conclusion to their conflict: Adolin sees himself as not able to meet his father’s high standards.  Dalinar choosing Adolin for the most important battle of this generation will be a powerful signal from his father that he sees him as a kinda cool son.

But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa.

Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

[+ILuvHats]

I don't have my copy of RoW on me right now, so I can't pull the direct quote. But I'm pretty sure Dalinar said he is planning on being his own champion rather than designating someone else, so unless he changes his mind, the third option you listed is a moot point. 

[slavagh]

Dalinar said he intends to be his own champion. I am not convinced he would be.  Isn't the point of a champion to solve a problem between two powerful beings without clashing directly with one another? What stops Odium himself to fight? We don't know the rules of the fight of course. Maybe before the fight, you are stripped from your powers. But I feel announcing the champion before the fifth book is a little misdirection from the author. I may be wrong. Dalinar vs Gavilar theory sounds kinda intriguing.

[Returned]

I think that your analysis is correct in that following the agreement by its most direct, obvious interpretation isn't a good deal for Odium. But that just means that he won't use that interpretation; the move is to cause Dalinar's champion (whoever it is) to choose not to fight one way or another, or to shift the contest away from something where Dalinar's champion would have any sort of advantage or even capacity to win.  Left unsaid in the negotiation is what happens if Dalinar's side breaks the agreement, an outcome he (Dalinar) never seemed to consider. Odium still has lots of choices to influence whom Dalinar chooses as his champion, and Odium has lots of options about how to manipulate or otherwise defeat anyone Dalinar chooses.

Odium has effectively infinite power and time, and far more knowledge of the future than his opponents. Especially given our meta knowledge of what the future holds for upcoming books both in Stormlight and the Cosmere more broadly I think that the worst possible bet is that the contest of champions will be as straightforward as Dalinar is thinking, with no twists or surprises. The least likely outcome is two people fighting in a decisive, direct contest like a duel. The contest will be something else, maybe like when Kaladin was torn between two oaths in WoR (one to Dalinar/Syl, one to Moash and the assassins). I predict basically zero chance that the next book covers only the prescribed ten day span and ends in a swordfight. I don't think that it will be a matchup with Adolin on Odium's side; he would choose to throw the fight and die rather than let Odium win on Roshar and inflict him on the rest of the Cosmere.

Perhaps it will be something in which "winning" doesn't matter so much for Roshar's humans, like succeeding in the contest but in a way that shatters a bond (to the Stormfather?), pushing Odium back but leaving humans on Roshar more vulnerable than ever to the wrath of the Everstorm and its denizens. Or both Dalinar and Odium choosing the same person as champion and forcing them to struggle with themselves, or possibly a Radiant vs. their spren. Maybe another threat will appear and will persuade Dalinar to abandon or otherwise obviate the contest, or Odium will persuasively present something along those lines. Maybe Odium will choose someone who can't appear on Roshar, like Thaidakar, who also might not be able to lose a duel as we imagine?

What are most suggestive to me are the epigrams in RoW ascribed to El. The final ten days seem likely to be the ten days leading up to the duel. Parsh and humans fighting together against some other, unknown threat? Something bigger is brewing, and I submit that the contest of champions either won't take place at all or will be swept up in other events to such a degree that it isn't even remotely decisive on Roshar or anywhere else. In any case, the nominal deal Dalinar struck with Rayse will be made irrelevant.

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, slavagh said:

I think this is the loophole that Odium will try to exploit. I see three possibilities here:

 

1) Dalinar refuses to become Fused (a very boring possibility)

Not at all boring. Put Dalinar to the choice of posessing Gavilor, Navani, Renarin or Adolin as a Fused or to break his word.

[AerionBFII]

Since the inception of 'The Champion' idea I've been considering it more and more unlikely it will be some gladiatorial slugging contest and be something more obscure, I feel like that is too simple of walking out onto the sand and having a slugging match while the crowd waits with baited breath. I feel there will be some subversion of trope or loophole exploited here. This is Sanderson we are talking about and he's been on a trolling roll recently. 

 

Since day 1 the fandom has thought it will be Kaladin because he's been the Radiant frontman or Dalinar because he seems to be the head honcho who has been dealing Odium but I don't think either of them will be the champion. I have no idea who it will be but I am leaning less and less towards Adolin, Dalinar and Kaladin. 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by AerionBFII

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Not at all boring. Put Dalinar to the choice of posessing Gavilor, Navani, Renarin or Adolin as a Fused or to break his word.

1. Yes that is boring
2. They couldn't be possessed

[slavagh]

10 hours ago, Returned said:

Left unsaid in the negotiation is what happens if Dalinar's side breaks the agreement, an outcome he (Dalinar) never seemed to consider. Odium still has lots of choices to influence whom Dalinar chooses as his champion, and Odium has lots of options about how to manipulate or otherwise defeat anyone Dalinar chooses.

I think it is directly said that Odium will be free from Honor's restrictions if Dalinar will break the contract

Odium is not interested in winning whoever Dalinar chooses. He needs Dalinar to break the contract. He needs to be free.

10 hours ago, Returned said:

I don't think that it will be a matchup with Adolin on Odium's side; he would choose to throw the fight and die rather than let Odium win on Roshar and inflict him on the rest of the Cosmere.

Odium Taravangian is not Raise. He didn't perpetuate war for a couple of thousands of years.The most horrific of his crimes only we readers know(killing people in hospitals to know the future). From Adolin's point of view, Taravangian made political assassinations with a lot of horrible collateral damage. Which his father, a war criminal,  is guilty of too. And Adolin is not explicitly against Szeth's presence on his side(the guy who did all the killings.

Adolin's death will not inflict Odium on the rest of Cosmere. And I assume that if he is fighting for Odium, he agrees with him.

[slavagh]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Not at all boring. Put Dalinar to the choice of posessing Gavilor, Navani, Renarin or Adolin as a Fused or to break his word.

Interesting point. It never occurred to me that being a fused for Dalinar means killing an innocent singer or human. He wouldn't be able to do that.

But Dalinar is more valuable if he breaks his word as Honor representative. After his death, he no longer is bonded with Stormfather, he is just Dalinar.  Refusing to be a Fused will not make Odium free. So Odium needs Dalinal to breack his word before the fight ends.

[slavagh]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

• Yes that is boring
• They couldn't be possessed

Humans can be possessed. The end of Oathbringer shows fused disappearing from Shadesmar and Sadease's soldiers being possessed at the same time. Implying that fused are possessing the soldiers and not the Thrill. Thrill only facilitate that.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, slavagh said:

Humans can be possessed. The end of Oathbringer shows fused disappearing from Shadesmar and Sadease's soldiers being possessed at the same time. Implying that fused are possessing the soldiers and not the Thrill. Thrill only facilitate that.

Just a heads up it's generally frowned on to post multiple times in a row.

And Fused did not possess Sadeas's soldiers, Nergaoul influenced them but they were not possessed.

Everyone is naturally resistant to possession, but Singers are more vulnerabe because of the spren they bond

Spoiler

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

And even for them the choice is voluntary to some degree, so even if it was possible the host could simply deny Dalinar access.

[Returned]

37 minutes ago, slavagh said:

I think it is directly said that Odium will be free from Honor's restrictions if Dalinar will break the contract

If you have it handy or have time, could you provide a quote or citation? I just went through the part of RoW where Dalinar and Odium discuss this and don't remember that bit. But I could easily have missed it, or it might be described somewhere else. In any case, we seem to agree that just going forward with the contest of champions is not what Odium wants, and probably not the tactic he will pursue.

It makes sense on both sides: Odium wants to be free of the Rosharan system, which a victory for his champion doesn't directly help, and Odium withdrawing for a thousand years still leaves humans and sympathetic Listeners to deal with immortal Fused and the Everstorm. Neither can quite get what they want or need from the contest. Even if they do go forward with it the contest won't really be a conclusion for anyone.

37 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Odium Taravangian is not Raise. He didn't perpetuate war for a couple of thousands of years.The most horrific of his crimes only we readers know(killing people in hospitals to know the future). From Adolin's point of view, Taravangian made political assassinations with a lot of horrible collateral damage. Which his father, a war criminal,  is guilty of too. And Adolin is not explicitly against Szeth's presence on his side(the guy who did all the killings.

Adolin's death will not inflict Odium on the rest of Cosmere. And I assume that if he is fighting for Odium, he agrees with him.

I don't think that Adolin was specifically opposed to Rayse (or even knew who Rayse was), but he does seem opposed to Odium generally and sides with Honor. He's been consistently committed to honorable behavior, even when it seems unhelpful or dangerous for him. Examples include saving Notum from murder against very difficult odds, and then encouraging Notum to just be honest even while Notum betrays him at the trial. Aside from coming to terms with his murder of Sadeas, Adolin doesn't really seem in favor of hatred.

It's an interesting parallel I hadn't considered that coping with Dalinar's murderous behaviors may seem similar (to Adolin) to Taravangian's choices, and if Odium has a way to persuade Adolin that might be the route to start with. My issue is really that I don't see Adolin agreeing with Odium, changing his mind and character over the course of just ten days, to the point that he would agree to become his champion. And even if he were somehow maneuvered into being Odium's champion, I think that he would choose to die (or otherwise throw the fight) rather than help Odium to win. Further, no one but Cultivation even knows that Rayse is gone and Taravangian has ascended, and so far Taravangian seems to be working to maintain that ignorance.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Returned

[slavagh]

44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just a heads up it's generally frowned on to post multiple times in a row.

Thanks. Is it OK to answer multiple people in one post?

The army of fused was in Shadesmar. Then they started to disappear. Where did they go if not possessing soldiers? It was not my point originally. I just pointed out that Frustration's point is valid. It is highly unlikely that Dalinar will possess anybody.

 

33 minutes ago, Returned said:

If you have it handy or have time, could you provide a quote or citation? I just went through the part of RoW where Dalinar and Odium discuss this and don't remember that bit. But I could easily have missed it, or it might be described somewhere else. In any case, we seem to agree that just going forward with the contest of champions is not what Odium wants, and probably not the tactic he will pursue.

 “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me."

I was talking about this quote.

I agree. There is not enough groundwork and foreshadowing for Adolin to be Odium's champion. He is my pick, because he, Renarin, and Kaladin are the ones for whom he will be willing to break his word.

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Thanks. Is it OK to answer multiple people in one post?

Yes.

15 minutes ago, slavagh said:

The army of fused was in Shadesmar. Then they started to disappear. Where did they go if not possessing soldiers? It was not my point originally. I just pointed out that Frustration's point is valid. It is highly unlikely that Dalinar will possess anybody.

From what I recall they didn't leave, the Fused stayed and fought Kaladin, only Nergaoul left.

And even if they did there were Fused at the battle and One of those Fused asked Odium how he had gotten Spren to possess humans, not Fused, but Spren.

[slavagh]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yes.

From what I recall they didn't leave, the Fused stayed and fought Kaladin, only Nergaoul left.

And even if they did there were Fused at the battle and One of those Fused asked Odium how he had gotten Spren to possess humans, not Fused, but Spren.

The ones that remained to fight with Kaladin were a couple of fused with the bodies.

Oathbringer 115: "Hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren stood in the lake of beads that marked the shore of Thaylen City. They looked vaguely humanoid, though they were twisted and odd, like shimmering dark light. More the scribbled outlines of people, like drawings she’d done in a maddened state" -sounds like the description Velnli gave the fused in RoW
 After Thrill vanished: "They joined him and watched as the strange army of spren began to vanish too, winking out in waves."

7 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Since the inception of 'The Champion' idea I've been considering it more and more unlikely it will be some gladiatorial slugging contest and be something more obscure, I feel like that is too simple of walking out onto the sand and having a slugging match while the crowd waits with baited breath. I feel there will be some subversion of trope or loophole exploited here. This is Sanderson we are talking about and he's been on a trolling roll recently. 

 

Since day 1 the fandom has thought it will be Kaladin because he's been the Radiant frontman or Dalinar because he seems to be the head honcho who has been dealing Odium but I don't think either of them will be the champion. I have no idea who it will be but I am leaning less and less towards Adolin, Dalinar and Kaladin. 

 

 

Why have a champion then? It supposes to be different from Shard vs Shard battle. If it will be some Bondsmith stuff, the best match is Ishar vs Dalinar. Besides Ishar, who can fight Dalinar in the Spiritual Realm?

The implication that fight is to the death, in a specific location and specific time tells me it is exactly what it seems to be. Western-style brutal fight.

I agree that Sanderson is great with twists. But he is also great at delivering something you can see is coming in the most satisfying way. IMHO the best moment in the Stormlight is when Kaladin decides to save Dalinar at the Tower. It’s not a twist. It was something the whole novel was leading up to. My point something is that if the whole series was pointing at Kaldin as the main man, it wouldn’t necessarily be unsatisfying.

 

[Returned]

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

 “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me."

I was talking about this quote.

I agree. There is not enough groundwork and foreshadowing for Adolin to be Odium's champion. He is my pick, because he, Renarin, and Kaladin are the ones for whom he will be willing to break his word.

Thanks! I'd glossed over the "same, but reversed" line. It's definitely clear enough in Odium getting what he (presumably still) wants in leaving the Rosharan system.

Though for my money, I still don't think that the contest will take place. With all of the shenanigans around fiddling with Hoid's memory it seems more likely to me that Odium will convince enough influential people that some sort of side-deal is worth making which will obviate the contest. I suggested in another thread that the Shard of Odium will be mixed with some other Shard (Honor is my best guess), which might be enough to get around the restrictions Honor placed on Odium anyways.

Even if it does come to the contest after all, I don't think that it will be called off due to some champion that Dalinar (or his champion) won't want to fight. The people on Dalinar's side are generally too aligned with Honor, and too focused on restraining Odium, to not make the sacrifice if it came to that-- not to mention the influence of their Radiant bonds that push them to do things they find difficult. But it's all guesswork at this point, and I'm excited to find out what happens! Next year...

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, slavagh said:

The ones that remained to fight with Kaladin were a couple of fused with the bodies.

Oathbringer 115: "Hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren stood in the lake of beads that marked the shore of Thaylen City. They looked vaguely humanoid, though they were twisted and odd, like shimmering dark light. More the scribbled outlines of people, like drawings she’d done in a maddened state" -sounds like the description Velnli gave the fused in RoW
 After Thrill vanished: "They joined him and watched as the strange army of spren began to vanish too, winking out in waves."

I'd assume that those are the Cognitive representations of Fused, rather than free souls.

The spirits of the Fused are brought directly from Braize through the Everstorm and into a host, they have no way to be in Shadesmar.

[slavagh]

16 minutes ago, Returned said:

Thanks! I'd glossed over the "same, but reversed" line. It's definitely clear enough in Odium getting what he (presumably still) wants in leaving the Rosharan system.

Though for my money, I still don't think that the contest will take place. With all of the shenanigans around fiddling with Hoid's memory it seems more likely to me that Odium will convince enough influential people that some sort of side-deal is worth making which will obviate the contest. I suggested in another thread that the Shard of Odium will be mixed with some other Shard (Honor is my best guess), which might be enough to get around the restrictions Honor placed on Odium anyways.

Even if it does come to the contest after all, I don't think that it will be called off due to some champion that Dalinar (or his champion) won't want to fight. The people on Dalinar's side are generally too aligned with Honor, and too focused on restraining Odium, to not make the sacrifice if it came to that-- not to mention the influence of their Radiant bonds that push them to do things they find difficult. But it's all guesswork at this point, and I'm excited to find out what happens! Next year...

My main theory is not that the champion will refuse to fight, but that Dalinar, not being the champion himself, will not allow either champion to kill his opponent. 

I would be slightly disappointed If there wouldn't be a fight after all.

Very interesting idea that melding 2 Shards will help to bypass Honor restrictions. Raise was the one who didn't want Shards to combine. He preferred to destroy them, to avoid other shards influencing his mind. Taravangian can be very into combining all the Shards. I keep forgetting that Raise and Taravangian have different intentions.

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'd assume that those are the Cognitive representations of Fused, rather than free souls.

The spirits of the Fused are brought directly from Braize through the Everstorm and into a host, they have no way to be in Shadesmar.

There weren't nearly enough fused in the Physical Realm to have an army of Cognitive representations. Plus, why would they vanish if they were Cognitive representations? The Everstorm was there at that specific moment. And Odium can bring souls from Braize without Everstorm. That was how Lezian was brought back at the end of RoW.
But you got me for a second. It never crossed my mind that they can be Cognitive representations.

[AerionBFII]

13 hours ago, slavagh said:

Why have a champion then? It supposes to be different from Shard vs Shard battle. If it will be some Bondsmith stuff, the best match is Ishar vs Dalinar. Besides Ishar, who can fight Dalinar in the Spiritual Realm?

The implication that fight is to the death, in a specific location and specific time tells me it is exactly what it seems to be. Western-style brutal fight.

I agree that Sanderson is great with twists. But he is also great at delivering something you can see is coming in the most satisfying way. IMHO the best moment in the Stormlight is when Kaladin decides to save Dalinar at the Tower. It’s not a twist. It was something the whole novel was leading up to. My point something is that if the whole series was pointing at Kaldin as the main man, it wouldn’t necessarily be unsatisfying.

 

I'd honestly prefer if Kaladin was the Champion and it would be very satisfying, I don't think the contest of champions would be Ishar vs Dalinar. It would be great to watch but I don't think it's the route the story will go. When Ishar came to his senses briefly he seemed completely aware of what was happening to him and he was horrified, Maybe while he's insane he does damage to Dalinar's side but I don't think his arc ends with him being hoodwinked by Odium.  

Narratively we know we have 5 Stormlight Archive books to act as a sequel immediately in the aftermath (around a Decade) after the first 5 books are finished and that they take place so it sounds like the only thing they 'win' is breathing room. Taravangian Ascended to replace a failing Rayse in order to inject a newer threat into the Cosmere which makes me think that it's going to get messy. Almost like the end of Marvel Endgame where they survive but Odium is released into the Cosmere but they are left alone to pick up the pieces on Roshar or the Oathpact keeps him Roshar bound for another year. I just don't think Taravangian will be sat on his hands, he can see further than Rayse did and a little clearer. 

Quote

The implication that fight is to the death, in a specific location and specific time tells me it is exactly what it seems to be. Western-style brutal fight.

I said it is just a feeling I have that the contest won't be as simple as everybody thinks, Sanderson has subverted the climax in nearly every book he has done. We are all sat here waiting for over a decade for this slugging match between champions and I am expecting some major twist. The language used in the agreement around 'Contest' makes me feel the opposite to confident. It is rather vague, it could range from a pie eating contest, a race, a fight or a spelling bee.

I mean all I have is a gut feeling, I'd prefer a straight up fight to be honest.

 

[Kallor]

5 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

I'd honestly prefer if Kaladin was the Champion and it would be very satisfying, I don't think the contest of champions would be Ishar vs Dalinar. It would be great to watch but I don't think it's the route the story will go. When Ishar came to his senses briefly he seemed completely aware of what was happening to him and he was horrified, Maybe while he's insane he does damage to Dalinar's side but I don't think his arc ends with him being hoodwinked by Odium.  

Narratively we know we have 5 Stormlight Archive books to act as a sequel immediately in the aftermath (around a Decade) after the first 5 books are finished and that they take place so it sounds like the only thing they 'win' is breathing room. Taravangian Ascended to replace a failing Rayse in order to inject a newer threat into the Cosmere which makes me think that it's going to get messy. Almost like the end of Marvel Endgame where they survive but Odium is released into the Cosmere but they are left alone to pick up the pieces on Roshar or the Oathpact keeps him Roshar bound for another year. I just don't think Taravangian will be sat on his hands, he can see further than Rayse did and a little clearer. 

I said it is just a feeling I have that the contest won't be as simple as everybody thinks, Sanderson has subverted the climax in nearly every book he has done. We are all sat here waiting for over a decade for this slugging match between champions and I am expecting some major twist. The language used in the agreement around 'Contest' makes me feel the opposite to confident. It is rather vague, it could range from a pie eating contest, a race, a fight or a spelling bee.

I mean all I have is a gut feeling, I'd prefer a straight up fight to be honest.

 

I’d prefer a straight up fight myself but I get what your saying about Sanderson subverting tropes. I don’t think the ‘contest’ will be cut and dry or even simple. 
 

There will be some caveat and ramifications  for the greater Cosmere. Taravangian has to get out somehow but Sanderson never lets things get too dark. There’s always a glimmer of hope all over the cosmere. 

[Sparks]

I personally think (T)Odium’s champion is gonna be Ishar, because his corruption / madness making him believe Dalinar is the real Odium’s champion in RoW is excellent foreshadowing. I also think Ishar was Rayse’s original choice for champion for this reason.

But, if Taravangian goes for the draw / breaking of the contract, it will happen along these lines: T reveals himself to somebody Dalinar loves. (Navani / Renarin / Adolin / etc) He explains how he killed Rayse and how the contest is pointless because he has no further designs on exterminating humans or continuing the human / singer war any longer than he has to. He then reveals that in the event Dalinar loses he forfeits his soul, and then cuts a second deal that would make them (T)Odium’s willing champion: be my champion, not to beat Dalinar, but to force him to break the contest. In return, I will spare Dalinar and his soul, return Alethkar and Herdaz, and end the human / singer war on Roshar. And since the contest is broken, Honor’s restrictions on Odium are null and void. I can see someone that loves Dalinar very much taking that deal for fear of losing him.

I also think the contest is like Sadeas being murdered: it’s going to end up being a short part of Book 5. Maybe wrapped up in the first 2 sections or so. Because in my mind, the main conflict of Book 5 is gonna be Taravangian freed, and Dalinar / Navani throwing together a hodgepodge revised Oathpact to restrain not the Fused, but Odium himself. The twenty year jump between 5 and 6 will be the time it takes for Odium to break the new Heralds.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sparks

[slavagh]

28 minutes ago, Sparks said:

I personally think (T)Odium’s champion is gonna be Ishar, because his corruption / madness making him believe Dalinar is the real Odium’s champion in RoW is excellent foreshadowing. I also think Ishar was Rayse’s original choice for champion for this reason.

Ishar is a valid option. But my personal preference is that both champions will be the main characters. To live up to the hype, the fight needs to be dramatic.

33 minutes ago, Sparks said:

But, if Taravangian goes for the draw / breaking of the contract, it will happen along these lines: T reveals himself to somebody Dalinar loves. (Navani / Renarin / Adolin / etc) He explains how he killed Rayse and how the contest is pointless because he has no further designs on exterminating humans or continuing the human / singer war any longer than he has to. He then reveals that in the event Dalinar loses he forfeits his soul, and then cuts a second deal that would make them (T)Odium’s willing champion: be my champion, not to beat Dalinar, but to force him to break the contest. In return, I will spare Dalinar and his soul, return Alethkar and Herdaz, and end the human / singer war on Roshar. And since the contest is broken, Honor’s restrictions on Odium are null and void. I can see someone that loves Dalinar very much taking that deal for fear of losing him.

Navani is too smart to be manipulated. Renarin is a no-go. (T)Odium saw subtle possibilities in the future. That means Renarin will be nowhere close to the fight. (Odium can't see his future). That's is why my main pick is Adolin.

37 minutes ago, Sparks said:

I also think the contest is like Sadeas being murdered: it’s going to end up being a short part of Book 5. Maybe wrapped up in the first 2 sections or so. Because in my mind, the main conflict of Book 5 is gonna be Taravangian freed, and Dalinar / Navani throwing together a hodgepodge revised Oathpact to restrain not the Fused, but Odium himself. The twenty year jump between 5 and 6 will be the time it takes for Odium to break the new Heralds.

Agree about the Oathpact. If it will be revived, it's to contain Odium. It is a little anticlimactic to trap the Fused at the end of Book 5.  I am split between Oathpact or Revived Honor to contain Odium. My Revived Honor prediction is actually Kaladin, not Dalinar. That will allow us to move on from Kaladin without killing him.

[Letryx13]

I agree that it seems unlikely that Dalinar will be his own champion.  Pretty much everyone assumed Kaladin would be the champion.  But this feels like one of Sanderson's misdirects like the Hero of Ages in Mistborn.  I like the idea of Taravangian attempting to persuade Adolin to fight for him, trying to use the rift between father and son, but I don't think Adolin would fight as Odium's champion.  Part of what Adolin is struggling with is his own self worth in a world where princes are less needed than Radiants.  Someone dealing with that might be tempted to take the offer of someone promising them power, but Adolin strikes me as the main "muggle" character to use a different fantasy story term.  I think there needs to be at least one major character that's non-magical, so I hope he continues to fill that role.

As for Dalinr's champion, I would love for it to be Szeth.  His own struggles with what he's done, and why he did it, his conflict with his people that is almost certainly going to come up, and the fact that he's the flashback character for the fifth book all suggest to me that he could end up being Dalinar's champion. It could be a great way for Szeth to redeem himself for all the chaos he caused.

[slavagh]

21 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

As for Dalinr's champion, I would love for it to be Szeth.  His own struggles with what he's done, and why he did it, his conflict with his people that is almost certainly going to come up, and the fact that he's the flashback character for the fifth book all suggest to me that he could end up being Dalinar's champion. It could be a great way for Szeth to redeem himself for all the chaos he caused.

 Realy like the idea of Szeth becoming the Dalinar's champion, not Odium's. His redemption is more intriguing to me than the possibility of him becoming Taravangian's puppet yet again. 
I was really pumped to hear Szeth is the focus character of Book 5. But sadly, If I remember correctly, Sanderson confirmed he will be the main interlude character. So I doubt he will be the champion of either side.

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, slavagh said:

 Realy like the idea of Szeth becoming the Dalinar's champion, not Odium's. His redemption is more intriguing to me than the possibility of him becoming Taravangian's puppet yet again. 
I was really pumped to hear Szeth is the focus character of Book 5. But sadly, If I remember correctly, Sanderson confirmed he will be the main interlude character. So I doubt he will be the champion of either side.

Szeth is the flashback character, I think. Which honestly is all the more reason why I think he'll be the champion.