Chanarach [Stormlight 5 Prologue Spoilers]

[Aon Tia]

Shallan’s eldest brother is named Helaran, a very “herald son” type of name….

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Aon Tia

[Isilel]

On 1.4.2022 at 0:55 AM, Could Be Fire said:

First, and more simply, we get on page confirmation that Chana does have bright real hair (previous evidence was "in-universe" and could have been inaccurate). This really reinforces Chana's red hair, and draws an obvious connection to some of the only other (non-horneater) gingers, the Davars.

Ginger Vedens, while definitely a minority, do exist. This is specifically mentioned a few times in the text - Davars are not unique.

 

On 1.4.2022 at 0:55 AM, Could Be Fire said:

Chana being a redhead is also important enough to emphasize as canon, so unless it's a red (lol) herring, it should be relevant.

Sadly, yes. Personally, I dislike the idea and it doesn't make any sense to me that a Herald, for whom it is supposed to be difficult to have kids (and for women it should have logically been even more difficult than for men), would have been able to pump out 5(!) kids within a decade. In fact, Lady Davar had more children than any other Vorin woman shown in the text. Only Rock's wife has more! Which also doesn't make sense, BTW, because the attrition through constant wars among the Alethi needs to be counteracted through higher birthrate, but everybody has like 1-2 children, which wouldn't have been enough to maintain a 100% peaceful population.

Shallan's surviving brothers seem pretty unremarkable too, and the jury is still out on Helaran. I also don't see what piling even more guilt on Shallan brings to her story.

But it sure does look like Chana Davar is where Sanderson is going... sigh. I still hope for an extra-red  herring though.

[Sparks]

On 4/5/2022 at 6:35 AM, Isilel said:

Shallan's surviving brothers seem pretty unremarkable too, and the jury is still out on Helaran. I also don't see what piling even more guilt on Shallan brings to her story.

Helaran was a candidate if not a squire for the Skybreakers, so it seems like the spren had already decided Helaran was pretty interesting.

I don’t think it’s necessarily more guilt - I think with RoW Shallan has made enough of a breakthrough with regards to undeserved guilt for her past that it wouldn’t be an issue - but “I killed my mother and triggered the True Desolation” is a juicy tidbit for a Fourth or Fifth Ideal for Shallan.

[Bejarden]

I see a minor issue with this:  The Herald that dies, dies most likely at night. Since that's when Szeth does his assassination. Shallan says in reference to her mother in WoR, "Our mother was murdered, that night Jushu held me." (WoR 563) Which I would say, seems to imply the mother was not killed at night . of course it isn't certain the mother didn't die at night, and that is why I think it is only a minor problem.

[Ytsken]

On 5-4-2022 at 1:35 PM, Isilel said:Sadly, yes. Personally, I dislike the idea and it doesn't make any sense to me that a Herald, for whom it is supposed to be difficult to have kids (and for women it should have logically been even more difficult than for men), would have been able to pump out 5(!) kids within a decade.

Shallan's surviving brothers seem pretty unremarkable too, and the jury is still out on Helaran. I also don't see what piling even more guilt on Shallan brings to her story

Has it been confirmed that Shallan’s mother is also the mother of her brothers? Because I agree that it is rather odd for a cognitive shadow to suddenly have 5 children in so short a timespan. Of course, the very fact that cognitive shadows can only have have offspring in a “non-traditional way” leaves everything wide open. What if Chana was not so much ‘having children’ as ‘experimenting’?
 

Remember how the God Kings were revealed to procreate in Warbreaker?

[Could Be Fire]

On 4/5/2022 at 4:35 AM, Isilel said:

But it sure does look like Chana Davar is where Sanderson is going... sigh. I still hope for an extra-red  herring though.

I was with you? Still, sort of am? In the sense that it's not my favorite twist, and it took me a lot to be convinced of it. But at this point, the evidence is kinda hard to ignore.

I'm worried about Shallan's reveals getting overplayed at some point, but he seems to be really committing to them. I assume there's some sort of thematic point to it all.

[Vin(Diesel)]

Shallan's name seems like a combination of Shalash and Nalan, the Heralds of the Lightweavers and the Skybreakers.

If Chanarach is Shallan's mother, she may have named Shallan after two of her friends. So we can wonder, why those two? And why didn't she (as far as I can tell) name any of her sons after Heralds? 

Do Shallan's brothers really share her mother? It's supposed to be difficult for Heralds to have children, isn't it? Does it say they all have red hair? Red hair is an unusual genetic trait (at least on planet earth) so it might be odd for them all to have red hair if they have different mothers. Is red hair common among Vedens?

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Vin(Diesel)

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Shallan's name seems like a combination of Shalash and Nalan, the Heralds of the Lightweavers and the Skybreakers.

If Chanarach is Shallan's mother, she may have named Shallan after two of her friends. So we can wonder, why those two? And why didn't she (as far as I can tell) name any of her sons after Heralds? 

Do Shallan's brothers really share her mother? It's supposed to be difficult for Heralds to have children, isn't it? Does it say they all have red hair? Red hair is an unusual genetic trait (at least on planet earth) so it might be odd for them all to have red hair if they have different mothers. Is red hair common among Vedens?

No, red hair is pretty much exclusive to Horneaters.

[+robardin]

Everybody’s focused on the fact that Chanarach is described as having flowing red hair, plus the fact that the so-called Stormfather feels that “a Herald has died” right around the time that Shallan would have been attacked by her mother (the day of Gavilar’s death), as indicating the two people must be the same…

And you know what? It wouldn’t be the first time Brandon pulled a fast one on us readers, showcasing an “obvious” conclusion only to have it play out completely differently.

But this time,

It’d truly be…

a

 

(please don’t ban me)

Red hair-ing.

[+Harrycrapper]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:48 PM, teknopathetic said:

Interesting idea. We know Shallan met the Seon at some point, so maybe something like that occurred.

Another possibility to expand on that; what if the Seon Mraize gave Shallan IS the Seon from her childhood. If the Seon was put in the safe and no one ever took it out, then it should still have been there by the end of WoR. The Ghostbloods went and grabbed Shallan's family during the civil war and probably ransacked the house. They would have found the safe and the Seon. Mraize later gives it to Shallan hoping to shake something loose from the quagmire that is her brain.  

[Vin(Diesel)]

It's official. I need Stormlight 5 NOW.

What the heck, Brandon. It's not fair when you taunt us with previews. Other authors, filmmakers, etc., okay. They can make previews. But this stuff is driving me nuts. 

He's too good for previews. Someone needs to make a law.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Vin(Diesel)

[teknopathetic]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:32 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

Shallan's name seems like a combination of Shalash and Nalan, the Heralds of the Lightweavers and the Skybreakers.

If Chanarach is Shallan's mother, she may have named Shallan after two of her friends. So we can wonder, why those two? And why didn't she (as far as I can tell) name any of her sons after Heralds? 

Do Shallan's brothers really share her mother? It's supposed to be difficult for Heralds to have children, isn't it? Does it say they all have red hair? Red hair is an unusual genetic trait (at least on planet earth) so it might be odd for them all to have red hair if they have different mothers. Is red hair common among Vedens?

Shallan specifically says that her mother named her after Shallash. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[+robardin]

On 4/11/2022 at 3:32 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

Do Shallan's brothers really share her mother? It's supposed to be difficult for Heralds to have children, isn't it? Does it say they all have red hair? Red hair is an unusual genetic trait (at least on planet earth) so it might be odd for them all to have red hair if they have different mothers. Is red hair common among Vedens?

Yes, Vedens are often described with red hair as a typical trait; there’s a red-headed Veden in Kaladin’s squad that was wiped out by Helaran (well, except for the several who were killed in front of him by Amaram’s people), and a “crier” proclaiming an edict in the warcamps early in Words of Radiance (Ch. 5) is described as black haired with streaks of red that mark her as having either “Veden or Horneater heritage” in Sigzil’s mind.

Helaran at least is described as being red-haired, and identified as a Veden by Amaram thereby, with nothing else to go on as “the attacker’s face was ruined” in telling a disguised Shallan how he supposedly won his Shards on the battlefield. Meaning, the red hair alone (while not being Horneater in size) identified him as Veden.

I can’t remember offhand if Balat, Wikim, or Jushu are specifically described with red hair (I think her father was?), but I think it’s safe to say that red hair is very Veden. Rock even surmised it was due to some intermixing with the Horneaters long ago (as Jah Kaved borders the Peaks), jokingly calling Shallan “little sister” from time to time.

Edited April 13, 2022 by robardin

[+mdross81]

I think I posted this excerpt in @teknopathetic's original thread with the Chana Davar theory, but just wanted to drop it here as well. Especially given the conversation about Chana having children AND the bit in the SA 5 prologue about finding replacement Heralds.

From WoK Chapter 7:

Quote

When she drew, she didn't feel as if she worked with only charcoal and paper. In drawing a portrait, her medium was the soul itself. There were plants from which one could remove a tiny cutting - a leaf, or a bit of stem - then plant it and grow a duplicate. When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper pulp for bone, ink for blood, the paper's texture for skin.

Perhaps the Stormfather/Stormfaker wasn't the only one trying to find replacement Heralds. What if this is a cleverly-hidden description of how Shallan came to be? Perhaps Chana, with help from Cultivation (or maybe Shalash?), created Shallan from a piece of her soul with the idea that Shallan would eventually take her place. This could help explain why Shallan would be different from her siblings. And perhaps this is also why Shallan's mother was so upset to learn that Shallan was bonding a spren, because it would conceivably mess up the plan.

[teknopathetic]

My guess would be "someone" found out a herald had 3 sons. Once this was known, either through trickery or temptation, Chana added a bit of spice to the next child she had. We don't get the impression that the boys are special, so my gut tells me that Shallan is something more complex than regular old cognitive-shadow breeding. My guess would be that Cultivation did something that undercut what Odium was doing, and Shallan will be Cultivation's final gambit. 

But then I also think Shallan is "the one who will destroy us" mentioned on the back of the book, and I think Roshar will die, so maybe hope I am not right haha

Edited April 14, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Morningtide]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the name that Shallan goes by to infiltrate the Find if Honor us very similar to Chana's. I believe it's Chanasha.

[Hazekiller16]

I am re-reading way of kings right now and I just saw this death rattle,

Quote

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

—Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

I believe this could be about Chana trying to kill shallan. If she truly believed that the return of the radiants would bring the desolation I can see why she would say something like this. 

[+robardin]

3 hours ago, Hazekiller16 said:

I am re-reading way of kings right now and I just saw this death rattle,

I believe this could be about Chana trying to kill shallan. If she truly believed that the return of the radiants would bring the desolation I can see why she would say something like this. 

Oooh, that's a good interpretation, I like it.

However, even ignoring the use of a gendered pronoun in "his throat" as referring to Shallan (as these types of visions could well be gender neutral and it's the speaker's biases creeping in), Shallan was far from a "suckling child", being what, about ten or eleven years old at the time of her mother's attack (being as it happened 7+ years before TWoK).

Still, it's plausible as it could be a vision sort of from the POV of Shallan's mother, who even if crazy probably still loved her, and a parent often pictures the "little one" version of a child for the rest of that child's life. (Not usually the "suckling child" version, but maybe for a mother?)

[Hazekiller16]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Oooh, that's a good interpretation, I like it.

However, even ignoring the use of a gendered pronoun in "his throat" as referring to Shallan (as these types of visions could well be gender neutral and it's the speaker's biases creeping in), Shallan was far from a "suckling child", being what, about ten or eleven years old at the time of her mother's attack (being as it happened 7+ years before TWoK).

Still, it's plausible as it could be a vision sort of from the POV of Shallan's mother, who even if crazy probably still loved her, and a parent often pictures the "little one" version of a child for the rest of that child's life. (Not usually the "suckling child" version, but maybe for a mother?)

Brandon has said in a wob that the genders are not always accurate in deathrattles, but the "suckling child" part is a bit of an issue. Perhaps that just sounds more dramatic that way.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Hazekiller16 said:

Brandon has said in a wob that the genders are not always accurate in deathrattles, but the "suckling child" part is a bit of an issue. Perhaps that just sounds more dramatic that way.

I mean, compared to Chana, Shallan pretty much IS a baby in terms of age, if you think about it. Plus, that could also hypothetically be part of Chana's herald madness talking, if Death Rattles take that into account.

[+robardin]

On 4/6/2022 at 6:40 PM, Bejarden said:

I see a minor issue with this:  The Herald that dies, dies most likely at night. Since that's when Szeth does his assassination. Shallan says in reference to her mother in WoR, "Our mother was murdered, that night Jushu held me." (WoR 563) Which I would say, seems to imply the mother was not killed at night . of course it isn't certain the mother didn't die at night, and that is why I think it is only a minor problem.

Jah Kaved is west of Alethkar, and Roshar is a pretty big planet, so it could easily be like two hours earlier, maybe? LOL

[drunkenbotanist]

On 4/14/2022 at 3:33 PM, Hazekiller16 said:

Brandon has said in a wob that the genders are not always accurate in deathrattles, but the "suckling child" part is a bit of an issue. Perhaps that just sounds more dramatic that way.

Could be that for some reason the heralds suspected that if they did have kids, that would result in their death and this could be about Chana and Helaran

[teknopathetic]

Lin is protective of Shallan and not the 3 brothers, so that makes me think Shallan is unique in some way. It couldn't just be because Shallan was a girl, but Lin's relationship to Shallan makes me think he views Shallan as inherently more that the other children. 

I find it interesting that Chana has the divine attribute of "obedient" and Lin is driven to rage every time his children do not obey him. 

My guess is that they are all Chana's, but Chana added some special spice to Shallan and Lin knew about it. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Itsafreakinpanda]

This might have already been discussed, but after reading through all these I wondered something. 

IF Chana is the herald that died (and assuming that she died the same night that's shown in the prologue for Stormlight 5), and IF she also went back to Braize (assuming that even though the oathpact is broken, that part still worked), is it possible that SHE was the one that broke instead of Taln? I know that they state he was the one that broke pretty explicitly, but is it possible that the fused and Odium just let everyone think that?

OR

Could Taln have broken BECAUSE Chana was suddenly on Braize, but she couldn't "break" and start the return (because of how broken the oathpact was, they had managed to pin it on Taln, making him the one who had to make the decision) so she would just be suffering endlessly. Taln understands this, and chooses to break to end her suffering?

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Itsafreakinpanda said:

This might have already been discussed, but after reading through all these I wondered something. 

IF Chana is the herald that died (and assuming that she died the same night that's shown in the prologue for Stormlight 5), and IF she also went back to Braize (assuming that even though the oathpact is broken, that part still worked), is it possible that SHE was the one that broke instead of Taln? I know that they state he was the one that broke pretty explicitly, but is it possible that the fused and Odium just let everyone think that?

OR

Could Taln have broken BECAUSE Chana was suddenly on Braize, but she couldn't "break" and start the return (because of how broken the oathpact was, they had managed to pin it on Taln, making him the one who had to make the decision) so she would just be suffering endlessly. Taln understands this, and chooses to break to end her suffering?

Welcome to the Shard!

Yes, it is very likely that it was Chana that broke, not Taln. In fact, we know that Taln didn't break from this WoB:

Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

We know that despite Heralds abandoning Oathpact, they are still connected to it, so it could work for them as it used to. I highly doubt that Taln would choose to let Fused go back, just to end Chana's suffering, afterall his sense of duty would be more important. But then there is also an issue of how broken his mind became, so I doubt that he did even realize that Chana returned.

I highly recommend you to read the theory that was linked in the first post in this topic if you haven't read it yet. It explains a lot.