Could Be Fire

Chanarach [Stormlight 5 Prologue Spoilers]

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lol. I love the meme. it does make sense too much.

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Posted (edited)

"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.

Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. 
Mentioned by @honorblades

----

If Chana is the dead herald, I think we should talk about what the Bright Light Shallan and her father see was. What did Lin put into the safe? Why did he act so quickly to lock the item up?

When I first put the Chana theory forward, my main point was that the Bright Light in the safe did not make any sense and that I did not believe that Shallan just hallucinated the whole event. That was the key element that snapped the theory into my mind. When we learned about Shallan's first spren and her trip to the garden, I was then 100% sure something magical was indeed put into the Davar safe (and not just a regular shardblade).

Affter the herald-death, Child-Shallan saw a glowing soul be placed into the safe. Then Child-Shallan runs to the garden and knows that Testament would be in the garden (and not locked in a safe). Child Shallan cannot both  believe her spren is locked away and that her spren is not locked away. It is only Adult Shallan that thinks that the blade was in the safe. But at the same time Adult Shallan believes she can summon a blade in TWoK, so Adult Shallan does not truly believe her blade is locked away in the safe. We then have Pattern, who may not fully understand what happened with Chanarach, convinces her that she must be misremembering the glowing-soul part. Shallan overtime begins to doubt if her memories of the glowing soul were real, and who can blame her? But childhood Shallan is not wrong about the glowing soul. Childhood Shallan has no reason to confuse a shardblade with the glowing soul of her mother. Why would a child see a weapon and think "yup, that is a glowing soul". If Shallan killed a herald, we really should consider that the glowing light truly was something invested and not the Testament-blade. 

Something was put into that safe that could not be a regular old shardblade. It was something that glowed somewhat like a dawnshard or the aural-light Dalinar seen when listening to Jasnah recite the Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral. What was that "soul" Shallan remembers being placed into the safe? If Shallan in fact killed a herald, then the light is almost certainly something real. Shallan, and likely Lin, were able to see the thing through the safe. Shallan is blinded when even walking by the door. That is weird. That is heavy levels of connection weird. 

Many had dismissed this as "she is just crazy", but I don't think Shallan was that crazy as a child. That is one MASSIVE psychosomatic response. If Chana was just a woman, that might be more believable. But if Chana is a herald, then bright glowy light hidden in a safe becomes something we need to treat as textually important. 

I have had some time to mull over what was in the safe, and I have four ideas:

1) A Soul
Is it possible Lin knew Chana was a herald and somehow locked her Soul into an aluminum safe? Do we ever hear when the safe was opened? I wonder if Chana was locked in there for a time and then was released at some point (maybe when the Davars fled the estate or some earlier time I am forgetting?). It is also possible the soul slowly leaked out just like with Jezrian. I do prefer the idea that the safe had been prepared for a purpose though. Lin seemed to act with quick reflexes to lock the item away in the safe. If the safe did somehow slow the return, then this may explain why Chana lasted 5 years before the desolation. 

2) Ba Ado Mishram
Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. This would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence, or maybe he could see the tendrils of influence around Shallan. 

3) An Honourblade 
It could be Chana's herald blade as well, if it was actually a blade. Maybe the Herald blade appeared and Lin stuffed it away in the safe so no one would find it. There may have been a coverup here. The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know" after a herald dies, so we know an effort is made to hide what has happened. We know Ishar was with the Shin for a while before Tukar, so maybe the fact a blade vanished was hushed-up by him or someone amongst the Shin. We have contextual evidence that at least someone didn't want anyone to know Chana had died, so a coverup is certain to have happened at least by one entity. 

4) A Gemheart
Another idea that occurred to me was maybe Heralds have gemhearts that get left behind? We don't know how heralds are brought back, but storing a soul in a gem might make sense. That is how fused do it, so gems might be used here as well. 

Bonus) 1 +2 + 4
They locked Ba Ado Mishram in Chana's gemheart. We see that Venli can lock a voidspren away in her own gemheart, so the groundwork for this occurring may have already been forshadowed in the text.

--

Those are the four ideas I have had for what is in the safe. It could be something else, but I am now 120% convinced the glowing light placed in the safe is something important.

If it turns out I am right about Chana being Chana Davar, then my supposition about the Glowing Soul actually being real is something I feel we cant dismiss merely as "Shallan be trippin". After RoW, I think we should be very interested in unexplained lights. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

If it turns out I am right about Chana being Chana Davar, then my supposition about the Glowing Soul actually being something is something I feel we cant dismiss merely as "Shallan be trippin". 

This is such a good point!

If I had to guess, I think something related to idea one makes the most sense to me? It could explain the six-year gap in between her death --> Taln's release, when we know the heralds were down to lasting <2 years. I thought maybe she was working with the voidspren and not being tortured to explain the gap but it could also that she had worked a plan with Lin to prevent her soul from making it to Braize, so she only actually made it to the torture right before breaking. It fits with the timeline of Lin's death (after which the Davar kids accidentally open the safe?) which brings it down to a more reasonable couple months of time before Taln appears.

Idea 2 sounds kind of crazy to me, but I also thought your original idea was crazy? Honestly, I think it's possible. It would explain which of the Unmade was there, and what Chana was up to for so long? The only issue I have is that I thought Kalak gave Shallan and Adolin all the info he had on where BAM was put, and I think it would have come up if it seemed like Chana/Shallan's mother was involved in any way.

I'm not sure about 3. I think Szeth makes it clear that the Shin had eight of the Honorblades (he mentions ice-skating training for Abrasion too). Szeth becomes Truthless 2 years before the Prologue I think (assuming the wiki is correct about dates/ages) so it does fit the timeline, but we know the Honorblades aren't supposed to appear upon the heralds being sent to Braize so I think it's unlikely.

Another idea is a Seon bonded to Chana? They seem to be popping up a lot.

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13 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

 

Another idea is a Seon bonded to Chana? They seem to be popping up a lot.

Interesting idea. We know Shallan met the Seon at some point, so maybe something like that occurred.

Quote

Idea 2 sounds kind of crazy to me, but I also thought your original idea was crazy? Honestly, I think it's possible. It would explain which of the Unmade was there, and what Chana was up to for so long? The only issue I have is that I thought Kalak gave Shallan and Adolin all the info he had on where BAM was put, and I think it would have come up if it seemed like Chana/Shallan's mother was involved in any way.

Do you recall what Kelek said to them about where to start looking?

 

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1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

2) Ba Ado Mishram
Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. This would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence, or maybe he could see the tendrils of influence around Shallan. 

This could be Re-Shephir, an unmade that Shallan knows well enough to make it afraid of being trapped in a gemstone (again), and Re-Shephir's violent fascination with humans infecting the Davar household similarly to [MINOR SPOILERS FOR THE RECKONERS]

Spoiler

the way Calamity's hatred of humans was causing them to go psycho.

This could be a more specific explanation for how an unmade was effecting the Davar family. The timeline would have to be stretched a bit, with Re-Shephir only being in the tower a maximum of 5 years rather than escaping centuries ago, but this would give us insight as to how Re-Shephir escaped imprisonment.

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3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Bonus) 1 +2 + 4
They locked Ba Ado Mishram in Chana's gemheart. We see that Venli can lock a voidspren away in her own gemheart, so the groundwork for this occurring may have already been forshadowed in the text.

 

This, but with Chemoarish! The Dustmother, being trapped inside the herald of the dustbringers.

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I might be misremembering or mixing up a few series, but aren't heralds sterile? Did Brandon confirm this?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

I might be misremembering or mixing up a few series, but aren't heralds sterile? Did Brandon confirm this?

No. It's possible for them to have children, it's just not easy for them and it isn't the same as for everyone else.

@meghanto - I think Chemoarsh is in the Davar household, but that's because I think Chemoarsh is something that was Unmade from Chana.

Edited by Bort
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Posted (edited)

I have questions regarding Shallan's Mother being a herald:

Can a herald permadie with a shardblade? Has any other herald died by a shardblade before?

Shardblades affect the soul too, can the heraldness (?) make them immune to soul damage by a shardblade? 

If I remember correctly, her mother's corpse eyes are burned, so she did die by the shardblade.

Edited by XaviGzz
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Die, yes. Permadie? Probably not. The Fused and Odium likely would have worked out how to permakill the Heralds far sooner than they did if all it took was a shardblade.

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So, my main objection was 'wait, so all nine heralds have managed to avoid dying for the past 4000 years? I get that they don't age, but accidents happen'. 

But what if, for some reason, you need to use a living Shardblade to kill them? That would be a much more unlikely sequence of events, and it would explain why Nale thought that Radiants could cause a Desolation. 

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Posted (edited)

We see that Taln has super reflexes, so I think we are to assume the Heralds are invested even without their blades. They likely are able to heal from wounds and things like that seeing as none of them had died for 4500 year.

A shardblade to the heart may have overwhelmed the Herald healing ability and sent Chana back to Braize. It is even possible a living shardblade is a little different than a dead one when it comes to power. Even if not, you can summon a living blade a lot faster than a dead one, so that may have been what gave Shallan the unexpected window to achieve the kill. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

But what if, for some reason, you need to use a living Shardblade to kill them? That would be a much more unlikely sequence of events, and it would explain why Nale thought that Radiants could cause a Desolation. 

That actually makes sense. 
 

and it seems that Shallan knows about the identity of her mother. 
 

Chapter 93, RoW:

Spoiler

Shallan represented the very thing they all said they would never do. The thing they blamed for all their problems. The thing that had doomed Humankind.

 

 

 
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I wasn't part of the hype train of this theory before but i just have to say i'm all for it now. (i logged in again just to support this theory lol)

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4 hours ago, Gilphon said:

So, my main objection was 'wait, so all nine heralds have managed to avoid dying for the past 4000 years? I get that they don't age, but accidents happen'. 

On top of what Teknopakthic said about healing, there's also that they're really, really talented. Like Nale catches an arrow at point-blank distance. So accidents or simple neglect are unlikely because of healing? And then a purposeful death is avoided through martial abilities.

And I have to imagine that the one thing they can put all their focus into doing is not going back to Braize.

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I assumed after RoW that the glowing light in the safe was a seon. It’s mentioned as a bright light not a red(corrupted) or violet light. And with shallans familiarity with Seons in RoW I think it’s a safe bet

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On 01/04/2022 at 1:33 PM, Gilphon said:

So, my main objection was 'wait, so all nine heralds have managed to avoid dying for the past 4000 years? I get that they don't age, but accidents happen'. 

But what if, for some reason, you need to use a living Shardblade to kill them? That would be a much more unlikely sequence of events, and it would explain why Nale thought that Radiants could cause a Desolation.

Needing a living Shardblade could only work if it is a more recent development, since the Fused could kill Heralds in the past. During the early Returns, the Radiants hadn’t been founded yet, so there were no Shardblades to be had. Later, everyone with a Shardblade would have been on the Heralds’ side, and the Fused can’t steal a living Shardblade. 

As the others said, I think the Heralds’ longevity is more to do with being supernaturally tough.

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Posted (edited)

Interesting theory that makes a lot of sense. It also gives a believable answer to a question that I have been thinking of: What can make a loving mother suddenly turn to her daughter and try to kill her? 

But if that daughter suddenly displayed Radiant powers and you were a Herald, and insanely afraid to be sent back to Damnation to be tortured, and you associate the return of the Radiants with a coming Desolation, well, then it suddenly becomes logical that the mother who is described as loving and caring, suddenly turns murderous.

Edited by Jenet
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I love the idea that Chana is Shallan's mother a lot, and think most of the ideas are very plausible. I've seen talk about  honorblades a few different times lately (i.e. what has been up with Taln's switching, and this Chana honorblade idea) and checked the very beginning of WoK and found this when Kalak meets with Jezrien:

Quote

Seven swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished. ... "Talanel," Kalak said. His was the sole blade unaccounted for.

Now, they also talk about that it's "Time for the Oatchpact to end" a little bit further on and we know that it wasn't until Jezrien's murder that the Oathpact truly ended – but I would assume that the Heralds have died and gone back to Braize enough times for us to implicitly trust the statement about the blades.

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Another support for this theory is in Words of Radiance, when it was revealed why Shallan killed her mother.  WoR says that Shallan's mother only started attacking Shallan after she found out about Shallan's abilities - meaning a bonded spren, and Radiant powers returning to the world.  So Shallan defended herself against her mother, using Testament as a shardblade, and killed her.  

To me, that doesn't seem like the act of a typical mother, especially after how Kaladin's mother reacted to his radiant powers.  It seems like the act of someone who knows too much, or someone who is trying to prevent the return of the Desolations.  Similar to Nale.

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What would it be like, to be brave like Helaran? As her mother had been. Her mother...

Chanarach's attributes are brave/obedient. 

In that same chapter, Hoid is shocked when he sees Shallan. 

Quote

Tall, slender, and blue-eyed, he had deep black hair without a hint of impurity and wore clothing the same shade. He glanced at Shallan as she stepped up into the box. The man started, dropping his cup to the table. He caught it with a swift lunge, keeping it from tipping over, then turned to stare at her with a slack jaw.

It's logical to assume that he recognized who he thought was Chanarach and he may have realized her parentage.

He later asks her

Quote

Tell me, young one. Do spren speak to you?

He then (definitely Allomantically) convinces her to Lightweave, before she realizes what she is doing and then stops. We have seen that spren are more likely to bond those that are around others that have been bonded, (Dalinar with Elhokar and Renarin, Kaladin with Bridge Four) so it seems even more likely that they would bond those that are around a Herald.

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On 3/31/2022 at 6:09 PM, teknopathetic said:

"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.

Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. 
Mentioned by @honorblades

----

If Chana is the dead herald, I think we should talk about what the Bright Light Shallan and her father see was. What did Lin put into the safe? Why did he act so quickly to lock the item up?

When I first put the Chana theory forward, my main point was that the Bright Light in the safe did not make any sense and that I did not believe that Shallan just hallucinated the whole event. That was the key element that snapped the theory into my mind. When we learned about Shallan's first spren and her trip to the garden, I was then 100% sure something magical was indeed put into the Davar safe (and not just a regular shardblade).

Affter the herald-death, Child-Shallan saw a glowing soul be placed into the safe. Then Child-Shallan runs to the garden and knows that Testament would be in the garden (and not locked in a safe). Child Shallan cannot both  believe her spren is locked away and that her spren is not locked away. It is only Adult Shallan that thinks that the blade was in the safe. But at the same time Adult Shallan believes she can summon a blade in TWoK, so Adult Shallan does not truly believe her blade is locked away in the safe. We then have Pattern, who may not fully understand what happened with Chanarach, convinces her that she must be misremembering the glowing-soul part. Shallan overtime begins to doubt if her memories of the glowing soul were real, and who can blame her? But childhood Shallan is not wrong about the glowing soul. Childhood Shallan has no reason to confuse a shardblade with the glowing soul of her mother. Why would a child see a weapon and think "yup, that is a glowing soul". If Shallan killed a herald, we really should consider that the glowing light truly was something invested and not the Testament-blade. 

Something was put into that safe that could not be a regular old shardblade. It was something that glowed somewhat like a dawnshard or the aural-light Dalinar seen when listening to Jasnah recite the Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral. What was that "soul" Shallan remembers being placed into the safe? If Shallan in fact killed a herald, then the light is almost certainly something real. Shallan, and likely Lin, were able to see the thing through the safe. Shallan is blinded when even walking by the door. That is weird. That is heavy levels of connection weird. 

Many had dismissed this as "she is just crazy", but I don't think Shallan was that crazy as a child. That is one MASSIVE psychosomatic response. If Chana was just a woman, that might be more believable. But if Chana is a herald, then bright glowy light hidden in a safe becomes something we need to treat as textually important. 

I have had some time to mull over what was in the safe, and I have four ideas:

1) A Soul
Is it possible Lin knew Chana was a herald and somehow locked her Soul into an aluminum safe? Do we ever hear when the safe was opened? I wonder if Chana was locked in there for a time and then was released at some point (maybe when the Davars fled the estate or some earlier time I am forgetting?). It is also possible the soul slowly leaked out just like with Jezrian. I do prefer the idea that the safe had been prepared for a purpose though. Lin seemed to act with quick reflexes to lock the item away in the safe. If the safe did somehow slow the return, then this may explain why Chana lasted 5 years before the desolation. 

2) Ba Ado Mishram
Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. This would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence, or maybe he could see the tendrils of influence around Shallan. 

3) An Honourblade 
It could be Chana's herald blade as well, if it was actually a blade. Maybe the Herald blade appeared and Lin stuffed it away in the safe so no one would find it. There may have been a coverup here. The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know" after a herald dies, so we know an effort is made to hide what has happened. We know Ishar was with the Shin for a while before Tukar, so maybe the fact a blade vanished was hushed-up by him or someone amongst the Shin. We have contextual evidence that at least someone didn't want anyone to know Chana had died, so a coverup is certain to have happened at least by one entity. 

4) A Gemheart
Another idea that occurred to me was maybe Heralds have gemhearts that get left behind? We don't know how heralds are brought back, but storing a soul in a gem might make sense. That is how fused do it, so gems might be used here as well. 

Bonus) 1 +2 + 4
They locked Ba Ado Mishram in Chana's gemheart. We see that Venli can lock a voidspren away in her own gemheart, so the groundwork for this occurring may have already been forshadowed in the text.

--

Those are the four ideas I have had for what is in the safe. It could be something else, but I am now 120% convinced the glowing light placed in the safe is something important.

If it turns out I am right about Chana being Chana Davar, then my supposition about the Glowing Soul actually being real is something I feel we cant dismiss merely as "Shallan be trippin". After RoW, I think we should be very interested in unexplained lights. 

What if she bonded one of th unmade? We have seen void Spren enter people they bond.  Unmade should be to do the same. 

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I don't remember if the original thread had this brought up, but something that seems important too is that Brandon wrote Warbreaker as a prologue of sorts for storm light archive, it introduces vasher and night blood and

Spoiler

Another major plot of Warbreaker revolves around a Returned having a child. And the annotations to Warbreaker repeat several times that there is a very specific mechanism required for cognitive shadows to have kids. Could be this book was setting up shallan the same way the book was setting up nightblood

 

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Haha

Chaos - do the Lord Ruler’s children matter?

Brandon - no they do not

*whispers* the Heralds though……

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