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9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Of course not, but where is the qualitative difference? Surgebinding may just be stronger because luckspren are stupider than Radiant spren.

No. I gave you another entity that can form a bond. There is no evidence that the bond itself is different. Aviars even allow for squires.
Radios are not the same as vacuum cleaners. Nevertheless you can run them with the same cable.

 

The bond dose different things that's the evidence.  

 

"Of course not, but where is the qualitative difference? Surgebinding may just be stronger because luckspren are stupider than Radiant spren."

 

This make no difference I don't know what cause the bond to be different maybe you are right and it is the intelligence of the cognitive entities but regardless i do not see why what causes the bond to be different matters. 

 

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On 7/22/2022 at 6:28 PM, Nameless said:

Yeah. Broken oaths would not override the torment. Oaths that 'ended' because of the spren's destruction via anti-Stormlight just might, as they'd still be a part of him.

That is jumping to conclusions. The only fully sentient spren we've seen that forms a non-Nahel bond is Seons, and considering that they don't even know such a thing is possible, we can't be certain that they cannot. Even Rosharan spren couldn't form Nahel bonds till they saw the Heralds doing it.

Why would Words without power behind have any effect? Without a Spren the ideals are just ideals. How could mere human words override the commands of God. 

 

The even if could learn how they haven't yet so clearly the bonds there making now aren't Nahel bonds. 

 

I'm jumping to conclusions your the one who concluded sigzel will

1. Kill a rando for no particular reason 

2. Will some how figure out how make a cognitive shadow. 

3. Will succeed in make a cognitive shadow,  dispite this been next to impossible. 

4. Will figure out how to bond said cognitive shadow. 

5. Will some how convinced the man he just killed to bond him.

6. Will figure out how to summon a cs as a shard blade (dispite us not knowing this is even possible).

All this in a book he isn't even a main character in. All because he call axillary knight, and I'm the one who is jumping to conclusions?

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1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

Why would Words without power behind have any effect? Without a Spren the ideals are just ideals. How could mere human words override the commands of God. 

Why would broken oaths have any effect? Why would Sig think they should have an effect, when he knows that he's broken them? How does he still have a bond when he broke it?

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

The even if could learn how they haven't yet so clearly the bonds there making now aren't Nahel bonds. 

They're similar, but weaker.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Kill a rando for no particular reason 

2. Will some how figure out how make a cognitive shadow. 

3. Will succeed in make a cognitive shadow,  dispite this been next to impossible. 

4. Will figure out how to bond said cognitive shadow. 

5. Will some how convinced the man he just killed to bond him.

6. Will figure out how to summon a cs as a shard blade (dispite us not knowing this is even possible).

All this in a book he isn't even a main character in. All because he call axillary knight, and I'm the one who is jumping to conclusions?

1. Or get a rando killed in a way that's his fault.

2-3. Not necessarily, could happen independent of him.

4. Not that hard, as long as you know what to do.

5. If they're friends, not a big deal.

6. If he can bond a CS and that allows him to summon a Blade, that shouldn't be hard.

I'll admit that my theory isn't completely plausible. However, I don't think it's as simple as Sig breaking his oaths and killing his Honorspren, only for Dawnshard weirdness to cause it to transform into Aux. That just doesn't really add up.

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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Why would broken oaths have any effect? Why would Sig think they should have an effect, when he knows that he's broken them? How does he still have a bond when he broke it?

They're similar, but weaker.

1. Or get a rando killed in a way that's his fault.

2-3. Not necessarily, could happen independent of him.

4. Not that hard, as long as you know what to do.

5. If they're friends, not a big deal.

6. If he can bond a CS and that allows him to summon a Blade, that shouldn't be hard.

I'll admit that my theory isn't completely plausible. However, I don't think it's as simple as Sig breaking his oaths and killing his Honorspren, only for Dawnshard weirdness to cause it to transform into Aux. That just doesn't really add up.

"Why would broken oaths have any effect? Why would Sig think they should have an effect, when he knows that he's broken them? How does he still have a bond when he broke it?"

 This exactly my point, He must have broken his oaths very recently probably only a world or 2 before sun lit man.

 

 

"They're similar, but weaker."

 Doesn't matter how similar they are, if one is weaker then the other then by definition they are not the same.

 

 

"If they're friends, not a big deal."

 Speak for yourself  if one of my friends killed me I would consider that a very big deal. We know all his friends which one do you think it is. Don't answer we know it couldn't be one of his friends  Because Sanderson gender swapped him which he wouldn't have been able to do he was a character already introduced.

 

"Not that hard, as long as you know what to do."

 First he doesn't,  second you're wrong  It is incredibly hard to make a CS.  In fact it usually takes direct shardic intervention. 

 

 

"If he can bond a CS and that allows him to summon a Blade, that shouldn't be hard."

 Again we have no reason to suppose this is possible. As we demonstrated not all Bonds give shardblades  It took the Spren  thousands of years To figure it out and that was after  They saw how honor did it. What makes you think a cognitive shadow would be able to just figure it out.

 

"admit that my theory isn't completely plausible. However, I don't think it's as simple as Sig breaking his oaths and killing his Honorspren, only for Dawnshard weirdness to cause it to transform into Aux. That just doesn't really add up."

 

 What about those things doesn't add up.

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I belive that Sizgil did not break his oaths, they were removed when he picked up Downshard. Downshard extended his soul so much that oaths were removed or changed by this. That would mess up not only him but his spren Aux as well. As Lift's spiritual web was changed by Cultivation it messed up a little with her bond with Wyndle (she can touch him), becoming a Downshard while being bond to spren would completely messed up all of Sizgil's connections and his spren, who is part of Sizgil's spiritual web, would be highly affected as well, possibly turning him into "dead" like state. I like the idea of Sig fulfilling role of the "spren" and Aux of the knight capable of accessing surges in their new bond. Rysn was forbidden to bond with spren probably not only because it would gave her access to surges but also Downshard would messed up with the bond and the spren - WOB:

 

Spoiler

AdelRD

Whatever is happening to Sigzil and his spren, is it related to the fact that the Sleepless forbid Rysn to bond a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Also a good question.

Matt Hatch

I admire all these people. These are great, deep metaphysical questions.

Adam

I am amazed every stream at how little I know. Not how much other people know, but how little I know.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say you are finding out, or Sigzil is finding out first hand part of why that warning was in place. And he didn't get that warning. He should have. Let's say that other people in the Cosmere have been able to do it without it being a problem. And so, you know, if you happen to be an age-old immortal master of multiple arcanum, then you can get away with things that poor people like Sigzil have more trouble with.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)
 

 

 If he would have broken his oaths then he would know they cannot affect him now:

Quote

“I thought,” Nomad shouted, “that my oaths overrode that aspect of the Torment!”

I’m sorry, Nomad.  But what oaths?

 

And he still was able to summon Aux as Shardblade when he wanted to pretect those who cannot protect themselves

Quote

Aux slammed into one of the pillars on the podium right next to Glowing Eye’s head: a six-foot long, glittering sword.  Auxiliary’s truest form.

 

I couldn't also find if he ever specifically said that he had broken his oaths:

 

Quote

" [...] the weight of forgotten oaths on his shoulders"

 Then my oaths ended, and I realized that destinations really are important, Wit.  They are.  No matter what we say.

 

I don't find it convincing enough that Aux is some CS or different spren that bonded with Sig after picking up Downshard or that he killed his spren before. Downshard messed them up and left behind more than the Torment, they became something that Sig never wanted them to became "destinations really are important".

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4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

This exactly my point, He must have broken his oaths very recently probably only a world or 2 before sun lit man.

If that was the case, Aux would be a little more annoyed with him, don’t you think? And he wouldn’t be as confident in using his powers as he is. And that’s ignoring the fact that when Aux said “what oaths” Sigzil’s reaction was not “oh right, I just killed my spren and broke my oaths.”

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"They're similar, but weaker."

 Doesn't matter how similar they are, if one is weaker then the other then by definition they are not the same.

Okay. However, that does not mean that Seons are incapable of Nahel bonds. Singers were apparently capable of similar bonds.

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"If they're friends, not a big deal."

 Speak for yourself  if one of my friends killed me I would consider that a very big deal. We know all his friends which one do you think it is. Don't answer we know it couldn't be one of his friends  Because Sanderson gender swapped him which he wouldn't have been able to do he was a character already introduced.

Alright, so it could be some random person. Or they could have had a connection beforehand (perhaps one of Dog’s squires) and then Sig bonded the Dawnshard and that connection was immensely strengthened and Aux was preserved by its power.

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"Not that hard, as long as you know what to do."

 First he doesn't,  second you're wrong  It is incredibly hard to make a CS.  In fact it usually takes direct shardic intervention. 

I was speaking about binding a CS, not making one. And I would guess that the Dawnshard handled most of it.

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"If he can bond a CS and that allows him to summon a Blade, that shouldn't be hard."

 Again we have no reason to suppose this is possible. As we demonstrated not all Bonds give shardblades  It took the Spren  thousands of years To figure it out and that was after  They saw how honor did it. What makes you think a cognitive shadow would be able to just figure it out.

Actually, it took spren thousands of years to figure out how to bind humans. Blades were probably pretty quick.

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

What about those things doesn't add up.

1. The oaths shouldn’t work if Sig completely broke them

2. Sig shouldn’t have a bond if he broke his oaths.

3. Doesn’t explain the weird squire/knight thing Sig and Aux have going on.

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6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If that was the case, Aux would be a little more annoyed with him, don’t you think? And he wouldn’t be as confident in using his powers as he is. And that’s ignoring the fact that when Aux said “what oaths” Sigzil’s reaction was not “oh right, I just killed my spren and broke my oaths.”

Okay. However, that does not mean that Seons are incapable of Nahel bonds. Singers were apparently capable of similar bonds.

Alright, so it could be some random person. Or they could have had a connection beforehand (perhaps one of Dog’s squires) and then Sig bonded the Dawnshard and that connection was immensely strengthened and Aux was preserved by its power.

I was speaking about binding a CS, not making one. And I would guess that the Dawnshard handled most of it.

Actually, it took spren thousands of years to figure out how to bind humans. Blades were probably pretty quick.

1. The oaths shouldn’t work if Sig completely broke them

2. Sig shouldn’t have a bond if he broke his oaths.

3. Doesn’t explain the weird squire/knight thing Sig and Aux have going on.

"Sig shouldn’t have a bond if he broke his oaths."

Wrong shallan  Still has a bond even after breaking her oaths. 

 

"The oaths shouldn’t work if Sig completely broke them"

 They aren't that's the reason why he can't surgebind . 

 

"Doesn’t explain the weird squire/knight thing Sig and Aux have going on"

  I don't see how this is answered by  Auxiliary been cognitive shadow. If anything it makes it more confusing.  

 

"If that was the case, Aux would be a little more annoyed with him, don’t you think? And he wouldn’t be as confident in using his powers as he is. And that’s ignoring the fact that when Aux said “what oaths” Sigzil’s reaction was not “oh right, I just killed my spren and broke my oaths.”

 

 If that is the case what is your explanation for the fact that he Thinks his oath should override the torment. 

 

"Alright, so it could be some random person. Or they could have had a connection beforehand (perhaps one of Dog’s squires) and then Sig bonded the Dawnshard and that connection was immensely strengthened and Aux was preserved by its power."

 Wouldn't that imply that his connection to a random stranger we've never even seen in the books is somehow stronger  then his connection  to bridge 4.

 

"Actually, it took spren thousands of years to figure out how to bind humans. Blades were probably pretty quick."

 actually the singer songs suggest  that the Spren first started bonding humans before the 1st desolation. 

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2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong shallan  Still has a bond even after breaking her oaths. 

Shallan doesn't get a shapeshifting Shardblade.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They aren't that's the reason why he can't surgebind . 

If they're broken, how come they let him overcome his Torment?

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 If that is the case what is your explanation for the fact that he Thinks his oath should override the torment. 

He never broke them, so they should still have an impact on his spiritweb great enough to overcome his Torment.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Wouldn't that imply that his connection to a random stranger we've never even seen in the books is somehow stronger  then his connection  to bridge 4.

One of his Squires? Yeah.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 actually the singer songs suggest  that the Spren first started bonding humans before the 1st desolation. 

They didn't make Surgebinders until some time into the Desolations, so no true Nahel bonds till then.

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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Shallan doesn't get a shapeshifting Shardblade.

If they're broken, how come they let him overcome his Torment?

He never broke them, so they should still have an impact on his spiritweb great enough to overcome his Torment.

One of his Squires? Yeah.

They didn't make Surgebinders until some time into the Desolations, so no true Nahel bonds till then.

 

"Shallan doesn't get a shapeshifting Shardblade."

She has only just begun to explore her bond with testament.  We can't say what she can and can not do.

 

"If they're broken, how come they let him overcome his Torment?"

I already answered this

 

"He never broke them, so they should still have an impact on his spiritweb great enough to overcome his Torment"

I have already explained why this doesn't work.  

"One of his Squires? Yeah."

 

Then why dose nomad call him knight and he call nomad squire? And do you really believe he would kill his own squire?

 

 

 

 

"They didn't make Surgebinders until some time into the Desolations, so no true Nahel bonds till then."

 

we have already established that not all bonds are Nahel bonds

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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

She has only just begun to explore her bond with testament.  We can't say what she can and can not do.

Adolin has a bond with Maya, but she hasn't shapeshifted either.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I already answered this

No you haven't, at least not that I can see. You said that Sig must have broken his oaths recently, but that doesn't explain how he was able to summon a Shardblade by relying on his oaths.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I have already explained why this doesn't work.  

No you haven't. You've relied on an baseless assumption, namely that oaths not linked to a spren bond will have no effect on a Torment.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Then why dose nomad call him knight and he call nomad squire? And do you really believe he would kill his own squire?

Because Aux is the one with the powers. And there is a difference between it being your fault that somebody is dead and killing them.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

we have already established that not all bonds are Nahel bonds

Yeah. And Nahel bonds are the ones that grant Blades. So if you get into a Nahel bond with a CS, it stands to reason that you'd be able to summon them as a Shardblade.

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7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Adolin has a bond with Maya, but she hasn't shapeshifted either.

No you haven't, at least not that I can see. You said that Sig must have broken his oaths recently, but that doesn't explain how he was able to summon a Shardblade by relying on his oaths.

No you haven't. You've relied on an baseless assumption, namely that oaths not linked to a spren bond will have no effect on a Torment.

Because Aux is the one with the powers. And there is a difference between it being your fault that somebody is dead and killing them.

Yeah. And Nahel bonds are the ones that grant Blades. So if you get into a Nahel bond with a CS, it stands to reason that you'd be able to summon them as a Shardblade.

"Adolin has a bond with Maya, but she hasn't shapeshifted either."

 She only started speaking recently,  he can who knows what else could develop. 

 

"No you haven't, at least not that I can see. You said that Sig must have broken his oaths recently, but that doesn't explain how he was able to summon a Shardblade by relying on his oaths."

Yes It does, I don't know what about this explanation you don't find satisfactory. Please explain.  

 

  "No you haven't. You've relied on an baseless assumption, namely that oaths not linked to a spren bond will have no effect on a Torment."

 You  Baselessly assume that they can. If oaths  not powered by any investiture  Could simply cancel out the tournament why the hell is hoid still under the effect of the torment?  Why doesn't he just take an oath saying " I will never be affected by the torment"  For that matter why doesn't nomade?  Not only is your assumption baseless it makes no logical sense.

 

 

"Because Aux is the one with the powers."

 If that's the reason this could still apply weather or not  He is a cognitive shadow or a Spren. I don't see how you jump from this to cognitive shadow.  

 

 

"Yeah. And Nahel bonds are the ones that grant Blades. So if you get into a Nahel bond with a CS, it stands to reason that you'd be able to summon them as a Shardblade."

 Again  You baselessly Assume that CS can form Nahel bonds  We have absolutely no reason to believe this.

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4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"Yeah. And Nahel bonds are the ones that grant Blades. So if you get into a Nahel bond with a CS, it stands to reason that you'd be able to summon them as a Shardblade."

 Again  You baselessly Assume that CS can form Nahel bonds  We have absolutely no reason to believe this.

Eh, we do have confirmation (unless he changed his mind) that CS are bondable

Quote

Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

and Nahel bonds are bonds between spren and physical entity

Quote

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

And since spren = Cognitive entity in general, then CS can form Nahel bonds and grant some powers, including being summoned as Shardblade.

I mean, even seon could form Shardblades, though the bond between them and their master would have to be strengthened (similarly to Radiant having to be at least 3rd oath before summoning blade)

Quote

Sir Jerric

Could a seon or a skaze turn into some sort of Shardblade on their home planet?

Brandon Sanderson

That is theoretically possible.  They work under the same fundamentals but they would need to have something to pull them more into the Physical Realm.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

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15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 She only started speaking recently,  he can who knows what else could develop. 

So my assumption that a CS can form a shapeshifting Blade is unbased but your assumption that a deadeyes can isn't?

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes It does, I don't know what about this explanation you don't find satisfactory. Please explain.  

Sigzil's oaths are broken, in your estimation. How, then, is he able to use them in order to overcome his Torment, without re-swearing them first?

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 You  Baselessly assume that they can. If oaths  not powered by any investiture  Could simply cancel out the tournament why the hell is hoid still under the effect of the torment?  Why doesn't he just take an oath saying " I will never be affected by the torment"  For that matter why doesn't nomade?  Not only is your assumption baseless it makes no logical sense.

When oaths are sworn as part of a spren bond, they have an effect on the soul. It's not that they are powered by Investiture that allows them to overcome the Torment, but that they change the Spiritweb, probably in a somewhat similar way to a Dawnshard. When the Spren dies, the effect of the oaths on the Radiant's Spiritweb won't just vanish.

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 If that's the reason this could still apply weather or not  He is a cognitive shadow or a Spren. I don't see how you jump from this to cognitive shadow.  

I just figured that there's something odd about Aux, and that him being a CS would explain why things are odd. Besides that, he refers to himself as dead despite being very not dead, by spren standards. He can talk, use magic, doesn't seem to have any cognitive problems like Maya, and can transform into a living Blade. What about that is 'dead' as opposed to just different?

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4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So my assumption that a CS can form a shapeshifting Blade is unbased but your assumption that a deadeyes can isn't?

Sigzil's oaths are broken, in your estimation. How, then, is he able to use them in order to overcome his Torment, without re-swearing them first?

When oaths are sworn as part of a spren bond, they have an effect on the soul. It's not that they are powered by Investiture that allows them to overcome the Torment, but that they change the Spiritweb, probably in a somewhat similar way to a Dawnshard. When the Spren dies, the effect of the oaths on the Radiant's Spiritweb won't just vanish.

I just figured that there's something odd about Aux, and that him being a CS would explain why things are odd. Besides that, he refers to himself as dead despite being very not dead, by spren standards. He can talk, use magic, doesn't seem to have any cognitive problems like Maya, and can transform into a living Blade. What about that is 'dead' as opposed to just different?

"Sigzil's oaths are broken, in your estimation. How, then, is he able to use them in order to overcome his Torment, without re-swearing them first?"

 I'm confused did you not read the  Preview to sunlit man?   His oaths aren't overcoming the torment  Because he broke them some time before  The 1st chapter of the sunlit man. 

 

 

"When oaths are sworn as part of a spren bond, they have an effect on the soul. It's not that they are powered by Investiture that allows them to overcome the Torment, but that they change the Spiritweb, probably in a somewhat similar way to a Dawnshard. When the Spren dies, the effect of the oaths on the Radiant's Spiritweb won't just vanish."

 

 Then  By your logic they should still be Overcoming the torment even now. In fact if you look at it from your perspective from your perspective breaking your oath should still allow you to suck in the storm light and use surgebinding.  After all the ability to do this comes from altering the spirit Web because of the bond. If the effects of On the spirit Web were we're permanent why come killing your Spren  Take away your ability of sucking storm light?

 

"I just figured that there's something odd about Aux, and that him being a CS would explain why things are odd."

 Are you serious I just gave  you several reasons why why him being a cognitive shadow only makes it more confusing. It causes more problems not less.  The differences in how Aux acts  Can all be explained by the dawn shard.

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Just now, bmcclure7 said:

 I'm confused did you not read the  Preview to sunlit man?   His oaths aren't overcoming the torment  Because he broke them some time before  The 1st chapter of the sunlit man. 

But they did. He was able to summon Aux as a weapon while protecting the raiders, something that he wasn't able to do otherwise

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Then  By your logic they should still be Overcoming the torment even now. In fact if you look at it from your perspective from your perspective breaking your oath should still allow you to suck in the storm light and use surgebinding.  After all the ability to do this comes from altering the spirit Web because of the bond. If the effects of On the spirit Web were we're permanent why come killing your Spren  Take away your ability of sucking storm light?

Because the powers are separate from the oaths you swear. You can draw in Stormlight because of the spren you're bonded to, but the oaths change your spiritweb. 

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Are you serious I just gave  you several reasons why why him being a cognitive shadow only makes it more confusing. It causes more problems not less.  The differences in how Aux acts  Can all be explained by the dawn shard.

I disagree with those reasons.f

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11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But they did. He was able to summon Aux as a weapon while protecting the raiders, something that he wasn't able to do otherwise

Because the powers are separate from the oaths you swear. You can draw in Stormlight because of the spren you're bonded to, but the oaths change your spiritweb. 

I disagree with those reasons.f

"But they did. He was able to summon Aux as a weapon while protecting the raiders, something that he wasn't able to do otherwise"

 This is easy to explain have you read words of radiance? We know from Kal's and Shallan's experience  That  Even a foresworn knight's radiant can still sometimes access a portion of  Their Knights radiant abilities after breaking thier oaths.  This is probably because While their Spren "dead"  In a Spren sense  It is still A functional cognitive entity.  A better term than that would probably be broken,  However this is not the case when a Spren  Is killed by anti investure. 

 The very fact that he can sometimes summon his shardblade and might have even have surgebinded at one point  Is further proof that Aux is his honor Spren 

 

"I disagree with those reasons"

yet you can not answer them

Edited by bmcclure7
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Just now, bmcclure7 said:

 This is easy have you read words of radiance. We know from Kal's and Shallan's experience  That  Even a 4 sworn knight's radiant can still sometimes access a portion of  Their Knights radiant abilities after breaking there oaths.  This is probably because While their Spren "dead"  In a Spren since  It is still A functional cognitive entity.  A better term than that would probably be broken,  However this is not the case when a Spren  Is killed by anti investure. 

This wasn't due to powers, it was due to the oaths. How are the oaths still functional after he broke them enough to kill his spren, and has not resworn them? And if he broke them only recently, why is Aux so chill about it? Why would he say that his oaths 'ended' instead of saying 'I broke my oaths'.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 The very fact that he can sometimes summon his shardblade and might have even have surgebinded at one point  Is further proof that Aux is his honor Spren 

Not proof. And I don't think he surgebound anywhere.

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Just now, Nameless said:

This wasn't due to powers, it was due to the oaths. How are the oaths still functional after he broke them enough to kill his spren, and has not resworn them? And if he broke them only recently, why is Aux so chill about it? Why would he say that his oaths 'ended' instead of saying 'I broke my oaths'.

Not proof. And I don't think he surgebound anywhere.

"This wasn't due to powers, it was due to the oaths."

  Their powers wouldn't  Have functioned  If their oath was completely destroyed. A broken oath is not the same thing as a dead oath.  This is why Kalladin was able to get back syl  Without saying all the oaths all over again. 

"Why would he say that his oaths 'ended' instead of saying 'I broke my oaths'."

 Why do we say my brother is gone and not my brother is dead?

"Not proof. And I don't think he surgebound anywhere."

Actually he may have. When he jumps from one Hover ships to the next.  He comments that he feels like he should not have been able to jump so far. It's possible that he was once again tapped into the surge of gravitation for just a moment. 

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Just now, bmcclure7 said:

  Their powers wouldn't  Have functioned  If their oath was completely destroyed. A broken oath is not the same thing as a dead oath.  This is why Kalladin was able to get back syl  Without saying all the oaths all over again. 

Their powers do not function as they are now. Sig can't Surgebind. Why not? Did the Dawnshard mutate his spren that much?

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Why do we say my brother is gone and not my brother is dead?

That's a bad comparison. A better one would be: Why do we say my brother is dead and not I killed my brother. And remember that this is his internal dialogue, not some lie he's telling to anyone besides himself.

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Actually he may have. When he jumps from one Hover ships to the next.  He comments that he feels like he should not have been able to jump so far. It's possible that he was once again tapped into the surge of gravitation for just a moment. 

Interesting.

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15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Their powers do not function as they are now. Sig can't Surgebind. Why not? Did the Dawnshard mutate his spren that much?

That's a bad comparison. A better one would be: Why do we say my brother is dead and not I killed my brother. And remember that this is his internal dialogue, not some lie he's telling to anyone besides himself.

Interesting.

"Their powers do not function as they are now. Sig can't Surgebind. Why not? Did the Dawnshard mutate his spren that much?"

 His oath are broken,  I won't explain here what happened to  Your surge binding abilities  Once oaths are broken you want to know that read words of radiance.

 

"That's a bad comparison. A better one would be: Why do we say my brother is dead and not I killed my brother."

 Then why did he say my oaths ended not  Some void bringer killed my Spren with anti void light?

 

"And remember that this is his internal dialogue, not some lie he's telling to anyone besides himself."

  First off wrong. He was talking to wit.

Second  People use euthanisms all the time when talking to themselves about about difficult subjects. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 His oath are broken,  I won't explain here what happened to  Your surge binding abilities  Once oaths are broken you want to know that read words of radiance.

They're broken enough to kill the spren. Kaladin never completely broke his oaths as Shallan did, and it seems that the Stormfather might have intervened to save Syl as well. If Sig's had his oaths broken for multiple planets, he would need to reswear them as Shallan did, or swear a new oath as Kaladin did.

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Then why did he say my oaths ended not  Some void bringer killed my Spren with anti void light?

Why do we say: 'my brother is gone' instead of 'my brother was killed'?

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

First off wrong. He was talking to wit.

Right, sorry. Still, not someone he's going to lie to on purpose.

 

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

They're broken enough to kill the spren. Kaladin never completely broke his oaths as Shallan did, and it seems that the Stormfather might have intervened to save Syl as well. If Sig's had his oaths broken for multiple planets, he would need to reswear them as Shallan did, or swear a new oath as Kaladin did.

Why do we say: 'my brother is gone' instead of 'my brother was killed'?

Right, sorry. Still, not someone he's going to lie to on purpose.

 

"They're broken enough to kill the spren. Kaladin never completely broke his oaths as Shallan did, and it seems that the Stormfather might have intervened to save Syl as well. If Sig's had his oaths broken for multiple planets, he would need to reswear them as Shallan did, or swear a new oath as Kaladin did."

 wrong on both accounts. 

1.   The storm father clearly States that he has killed Syl.

2.  Shallan  needed new oaths  Only because she got a new Spren. 

 

"Right, sorry. Still, not someone he's going to lie to on purpose."

 It wasn't lie.  Breaking his oaths would cause them to end. 

 

Why do we say: 'my brother is gone' instead of 'my brother was killed'?

 

It's called euthanism.

 

 

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13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.   The storm father clearly States that he has killed Syl.

The Stormfather is obviously lying. Syl is very much still alive, kept away from Kaladin by the Stormfather, nearly dead because of his nearly broken oaths. Becoming a deadeyes is not something that can be easily reversed.

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  Shallan  needed new oaths  Only because she got a new Spren. 

Her spren is still a deadeyes, and hasn't even recovered as much as Maya.

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It wasn't lie.  Breaking his oaths would cause them to end. 

But why phrase it that way? It's avoiding responsibility in a way that neither Hoid nor Aux would allow. If he had broken his oaths, I would expect one or the other to immediately reply with something along the lines of 'you mean you broke your oaths. They didn't just end.'

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It's called euthanism.

No, it's called euphemism. And it doesn't make sense in the case that he broke his oaths.

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4 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Stormfather is obviously lying. Syl is very much still alive, kept away from Kaladin by the Stormfather, nearly dead because of his nearly broken oaths. Becoming a deadeyes is not something that can be easily reversed.

Her spren is still a deadeyes, and hasn't even recovered as much as Maya.

But why phrase it that way? It's avoiding responsibility in a way that neither Hoid nor Aux would allow. If he had broken his oaths, I would expect one or the other to immediately reply with something along the lines of 'you mean you broke your oaths. They didn't just end.'

No, it's called euphemism. And it doesn't make sense in the case that he broke his oaths.

"The Stormfather is obviously lying. Syl is very much still alive, kept away from Kaladin by the Stormfather, nearly dead because of his nearly broken oaths. Becoming a deadeyes is not something that can be easily reversed."

 

 There's literally no evidence for this if this were true how come kaliden seemingly lost his power?

 

"Her spren is still a deadeyes, and hasn't even recovered as much as Maya."

Yes so?

 

 

But why phrase it that way? It's avoiding responsibility in a way that neither Hoid nor Aux would allow. If he had broken his oaths, I would expect one or the other to immediately reply with something along the lines of 'you mean you broke your oaths. They didn't just end.'

 

 Are you sure we've only just met Aux  I don't think either of us can confidently say what he would or would not do. 

 

As for a hoid, he Clearly saw nomad  Was in a bad place.   He went so far as to lie in order to comfort him. I doubt he thought it was the right time for a confrontation.

 

"No, it's called euphemism. And it doesn't make sense in the case that he broke his oaths."

 Why not? it makes perfect sense to me.

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6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 There's literally no evidence for this if this were true how come kaliden seemingly lost his power?

While the bond was almost completely broken, Syl wasn't dead, as she could still talk. The Stormfather was preventing her from going to Kaladin, only relenting when he swore the oaths. The Stormfather told Kaladin that Syl was completely dead, and there was no way to save her. We see this to be an obvious untruth when Syl speaks to Kaladin and the Stormfather at the end of WoR, completely conscious and sentient.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes so?

Shallan's straight up resworn oaths. How is Sig's spren so functional if he just broke his oaths?

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Are you sure we've only just met Aux  I don't think either of us can confidently say what he would or would not do. 

Pretty much every spren we've met, and basically every side character for that fills the same role as Aux, has the annoying habit of forcing their Radiant/friends to be honest with themselves.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Why not? it makes perfect sense to me.

If he broke his oaths without justification, why would he say that they 'ended'? That's the whole point of this thread, after all. To try and theorize about why Sigzil says it this way.

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