64 posts in this topic

Nomad/Sigzil said his oaths "ended." Not that he broke them, but that they ended.

Perhaps this means that it became logically impossible for him to protect people without harming them more. For instance, perhaps a deal was made with Odium that he would not destroy Roshar as long as the Radiants wouldn't protect the people of Roshar. In that scenario, protecting people would be breaking your oaths to protect them. 

That could explain why Auxiliary says he is dead, but isn't an ordinary deadeyes. Then again, a lot of things could explain that. Spren didn't become deadeyes when their Knights broke oaths before the Recreance. So much is changing, and maybe something else will stop there from being deadeyes again.

What do you think?

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I’m still not convinced that Aux is even a Rosharin spren, and if he is there must be more going on that being simply a deadeye because Aux is shown using a combination of surges that no order has access to. 

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2 hours ago, SecondPlace said:

I’m still not convinced that Aux is even a Rosharin spren, and if he is there must be more going on that being simply a deadeye because Aux is shown using a combination of surges that no order has access to. 

It's pretty certain

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Let's just say you are finding out, or Sigzil is finding out first hand part of why that warning was in place. And he didn't get that warning. He should have. Let's say that other people in the Cosmere have been able to do it without it being a problem. And so, you know, if you happen to be an age-old immortal master of multiple arcanum, then you can get away with things that poor people like Sigzil have more trouble with.

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On 5/31/2022 at 9:32 AM, SecondPlace said:

I’m still not convinced that Aux is even a Rosharin spren, and if he is there must be more going on that being simply a deadeye because Aux is shown using a combination of surges that no order has access to. 

 It says specifically  That he is a Spren

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On 3/31/2022 at 3:48 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

Nomad/Sigzil said his oaths "ended." Not that he broke them, but that they ended.

Perhaps this means that it became logically impossible for him to protect people without harming them more. For instance, perhaps a deal was made with Odium that he would not destroy Roshar as long as the Radiants wouldn't protect the people of Roshar. In that scenario, protecting people would be breaking your oaths to protect them. 

That could explain why Auxiliary says he is dead, but isn't an ordinary deadeyes. Then again, a lot of things could explain that. Spren didn't become deadeyes when their Knights broke oaths before the Recreance. So much is changing, and maybe something else will stop there from being deadeyes again.

What do you think?

I find it more likely that Sigxil’s original Soren was killed, and he met Auxiliary sometime later. That would end Sigzil’s oaths without him breaking them.

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6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I find it more likely that Sigxil’s original Soren was killed, and he met Auxiliary sometime later. That would end Sigzil’s oaths without him breaking them.

He did break his oaths

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18 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

He did break his oaths

I can't find anywhere in the released text or WoBs that supports this claim.  Instead, as suggested earlier, Sigzil talks about his Oaths ending.  If there is something I missed please let me know.

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19 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I can't find anywhere in the released text or WoBs that supports this claim.  Instead, as suggested earlier, Sigzil talks about his Oaths ending.  If there is something I missed please let me know.

 Auxiliary  It's pretty insistent that

A. He is dead

B . Sigzil killed him

 If he was just released from his oaths these 2 things wouldn't be the case. So then he must have broken his oaths at some point.

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2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Auxiliary  It's pretty insistent that

A. He is dead

B . Sigzil killed him

 If he was just released from his oaths these 2 things wouldn't be the case. So then he must have broken his oaths at some point.

Aux does not strike me as an Honorspren. I think he’s either a different spren that Sig bonded after losing his Honorspren or a CS.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Aux does not strike me as an Honorspren. I think he’s either a different spren that Sig bonded after losing his Honorspren or a CS.

It's also possible that the Dawnshard corrupted him. Similar to how Glys doesn't act like other Mistspren.

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Just now, Frustration said:

It's also possible that the Dawnshard corrupted him. Similar to how Glys doesn't act like other Mistspren.

That is possible, but it seems unlikely to me. While Dawnshards as we see them have changed people, they don’t seem to fundamentally alter their personality.

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Nameless said:

Aux does not strike me as an Honorspren. I think he’s either a different spren that Sig bonded after losing his Honorspren or a CS.

 Are you really suggesting that he has broken his oaths twice?

 

 

 Also what exactly a about him that you found to be not honor Spren like?  To me felt just like a masculine version of Syl

Edited by bmcclure7
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On 7/18/2022 at 6:05 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Are you really suggesting that he has broken his oaths twice?

No, I’m suggesting that Sigzil is going to lose his Honorspren in KoW via anti-Stormlight, then bond with a Dawnshard and somehow pick up Auxillary, whom I presume to be a Cognitive Shadow.

On 7/18/2022 at 6:05 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Also what exactly a about him that you found to be not honor Spren like?  To me felt just like a masculine version of Syl

Nothing specifically, but calling himself a “knight” seems weird for a spren.

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"Then knight will reign, for the choice of Honor is life."

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

No, I’m suggesting that Sigzil is going to lose his Honorspren in KoW via anti-Stormlight, then bond with a Dawnshard and somehow pick up Auxillary, whom I presume to be a Cognitive Shadow.

Nothing specifically, but calling himself a “knight” seems weird for a spren.

No Auxillary  is stated to be a Spren,  He is no cognitive shadow. 

Also   We've seen sprints refer to themselves as Knights and the bonded humans as Squires before.

Also Sigzil  Says his oaths should override the tournament. Meaning that at 1 time they did meaning that he must have been a functional knight's radiant  when the torment first started.

 

Also Auxillary is a shard blade. No cognitive shadow or non rosharen  Spren has ever show such an ability. 

 

Also a shard blade is said his truest form that would not be the case for a cognitive shadow. 

Edited by bmcclure7
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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

No Auxillary  is stated to be a Spren,  He is no cognitive shadow. 

Cognitive Shadows are spren, according to Rosharan standards.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Also   We've seen sprints refer to themselves as Knights and the bonded humans as Squires before.

When?

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Also Sigzil  Says his oaths should override the tournament. Meaning that at 1 time they did meaning that he must have been a functional knight's radiant  when the torment first started.

Or it means that he never directly broke his oaths, as implied by him saying that his oaths ended rather than saying that he broke them. Losing a spren will do that to you.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Also Auxillary is a shard blade. No cognitive shadow or non rosharen  Spren has ever show such an ability. 

No CS nor non-Roshar spren has ever been in a Nahel bond, at least that we've seen.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Also a shard blade is said his truest form that would not be the case for a cognitive shadow. 

A good point, but also not necessarily true. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Cognitive Shadows are spren, according to Rosharan standards.

When?

Or it means that he never directly broke his oaths, as implied by him saying that his oaths ended rather than saying that he broke them. Losing a spren will do that to you.

No CS nor non-Roshar spren has ever been in a Nahel bond, at least that we've seen.

A good point, but also not necessarily true. 

 

"When?"

Im pretty sure his high Spren calls Zeth squire but I could be wrong. But what human could nomad possibly me a squire of? His spen blade isn't hoid or Kaliden so I don't think it could be human.

 

"Or it means that he never directly broke his oaths, as implied by him saying that his oaths ended rather than saying that he broke them. Losing a spren will do that to you."

 

This make no sense. Even if he didn't directly break his oaths if his spren was dead it would still be that he was not bond by oaths when he took up the dawnshard which is not what the text describes.

"No CS nor non-Roshar spren has ever been in a Nahel bond, at least that we've seen."

 

Why do you think non rosharen Spren can even form Nahel bonds Seon can't so why would an non rosharen Spren much less a connective shadow be able to?

Also Auxillary says Sigzil killed him? Unless you think he is going to kill some rando who happenes to become a cognitive shadow (despite this the fact that this is supposed tp be really difficult)  what could this be other then his Spren. 

Edited by bmcclure7
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Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Im pretty sure his high Spren calls Zeth squire but I could be wrong. But what human could nomad possibly me a squire of? His spen blade isn't hoid or Kaliden so I don't think it could be human.

Could be some other human. Or a Singer.

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

This make no sense. Even if he didn't directly break his oaths if his spren was dead it would still be that he was not bond by oaths when he took up the dawnshard which is not what the text describes.

Sigzil sees his oaths as completely gone, 'ended', but also expects them to still protect him from the Torment. What would have caused that besides his spren being killed? Breaking his oaths would not lead to him going 'oh yeah, my oaths should be letting me fight despite my Torment'.

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Why do you think non rosharen Spren can even form Nahel bonds Seon can't so why would an non rosharen Spren much less a connective shadow be able to?

CS can bond people:

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Could be some other human. Or a Singer.

Sigzil sees his oaths as completely gone, 'ended', but also expects them to still protect him from the Torment. What would have caused that besides his spren being killed? Breaking his oaths would not lead to him going 'oh yeah, my oaths should be letting me fight despite my Torment'.

CS can bond people:

 

Bond yes Nahel bond no.

Pain Spren, luck Spren and seons all form bonds. But this must be different from the nahel bond because  neither warforrm, great shells, or selish humans have access to surgebinding or shardblades.

 

The very fact that nomad expects his oaths to override the torment means that at one time they did. For that to happen whatever "ended" his oaths must have happened after becoming a dawnshard.  

Edited by bmcclure7
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7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Bond yes Nahel bond no.

Aviars? There is no reason to believe that multiple forms of bonds exist.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Pain Spren, luck Spren and seons all form bonds. But this must be different from the nahel bond because  neither warforrm, great shells, or selish humans have access to surgebinding or shardblades.

But luckspren grant other abilities, namely to reduce to reduce mass. The reason you don't get a Surge from other spren may just be that they don't fit, not the nature of the bond.

 

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7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Pain Spren, luck Spren and seons all form bonds. But this must be different from the nahel bond because  neither warforrm, great shells, or selish humans have access to surgebinding or shardblades.

Other spren form bonds by going inside a creature's gemheart, something humans don't have. Seons could have a different kind of bond, or their bond could just be weaker than a Radiant bond.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

The very fact that nomad expects his oaths to override the torment means that at one time they did. For that to happen whatever "ended" his oaths must have happened after becoming a dawnshard.  

Or he started out by following his oaths fairly consistently despite his belief that they had ended, but over time became more pessimistic and slowly drifted away from them.

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10 hours ago, Nameless said:

Other spren form bonds by going inside a creature's gemheart, something humans don't have. Seons could have a different kind of bond, or their bond could just be weaker than a Radiant bond.

Or he started out by following his oaths fairly consistently despite his belief that they had ended, but over time became more pessimistic and slowly drifted away from them.

"Or he started out by following his oaths fairly consistently despite his belief that they had ended, but over time became more pessimistic and slowly drifted away from them."

 

 That makes no sense, He wasn't talking about following his oaths he was talking about his oaths overriding the torment. Meaning his oaths were functioning magically.  For that to work they could not have ended yet. Dead oaths even dead oaths he was keeping would not have overrided the tournament. 

 

 

 

"Other spren form bonds by going inside a creature's gemheart, something humans don't have. Seons could have a different kind of bond, or their bond could just be weaker than a Radiant bond."

Exactly  my point Other cognitive entities form bonds a either weeker or  Fundamentally different from the Nahel bond  Only one of the radiance Spren can form a Nahel bond  For accelerate  To do the things he does he could not be cognitive shadow.

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10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Aviars? There is no reason to believe that multiple forms of bonds exist.

But luckspren grant other abilities, namely to reduce to reduce mass. The reason you don't get a Surge from other spren may just be that they don't fit, not the nature of the bond.

 

   Reducing Mass is not the same as have surgebind powers, and even if it were how about painspren, gravity Spren and seons. 

 

 

"Aviars? There is no reason to believe that multiple forms of bonds exist."

 

I literally just gave you 3 and you just gave me a 4.

 

"The reason you don't get a Surge from other spren may just be that they don't fit, not the nature of the bond."

 

I don't understand what your trying to say what do you mean by "don't fit" and how is different from "the nature of the bond"?

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11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 That makes no sense, He wasn't talking about following his oaths he was talking about his oaths overriding the torment. Meaning his oaths were functioning magically.  For that to work they could not have ended yet. Dead oaths even dead oaths he was keeping would not have overrided the tournament. 

Yeah. Broken oaths would not override the torment. Oaths that 'ended' because of the spren's destruction via anti-Stormlight just might, as they'd still be a part of him.

15 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Exactly  my point Other cognitive entities form bonds a either weeker or  Fundamentally different from the Nahel bond  Only one of the radiance Spren can form a Nahel bond  For accelerate  To do the things he does he could not be cognitive shadow.

That is jumping to conclusions. The only fully sentient spren we've seen that forms a non-Nahel bond is Seons, and considering that they don't even know such a thing is possible, we can't be certain that they cannot. Even Rosharan spren couldn't form Nahel bonds till they saw the Heralds doing it.

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14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

   Reducing Mass is not the same as have surgebind powers, and even if it were how about painspren, gravity Spren and seons. 

Of course not, but where is the qualitative difference? Surgebinding may just be stronger because luckspren are stupider than Radiant spren.

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"Aviars? There is no reason to believe that multiple forms of bonds exist."

 

I literally just gave you 3 and you just gave me a 4.

No. I gave you another entity that can form a bond. There is no evidence that the bond itself is different. Aviars even allow for squires.
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