Dam it Gavilar!(Stormlight 5 spoilers)

[Karger]

No one has made one of these yet so I thought a spoiler thread for the stormlight 5 prologue might be a good idea.  I can summarize my own thoughts on this chapter with the title but what do you all think?  Gavilar was so close and yet so far.  Did the stormfather lie to him?  He wanted that guy to succeed him?  I honestly think that the stormfather was a lot less frustrated then I would have been.  Can Brandon please write a chapter about Gavilar having a full round sparing session with Dalinar?  I need to release some of my aggravation.  Gavilar remains a highly complex figure even after this chapter.

What do you all think of him now that we have seen his mind?

Edited April 1, 2022 by Karger

[Frustration]

There is one.

Or do you mean a thread specifically to hate on Gavilar?

[Torol Sadeas]

I am really curious to see if that is the real stormfather, and if it is, why he chose Gavilar. Even more weird was the whole thing about Gavilar becoming a Herald, it doesnt exactly fit with Dalinar's journey so far.

When it comes to Gavilar himself, i like that he is much more clueless than originally thought. Throughout the books everyone portrayed him as some kind of genius (including himself), and he was one, in a way, but at the end of the day he is still a human. It was impossible for him to truly understand the situation. He fell victim to his own arrogance and megalomania and i would personally like to know more about his last years.   

In general, it seems like the heralds will play a very important role in book 5.. 

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There is one.

Or do you mean a thread specifically to hate on Gavilar?

I missed it because it was in the cosmere discussion area.  However I do think a separate Gavilar discussion thread is a good idea.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Torol Sadeas said:

I am really curious to see if that is the real stormfather, and if it is, why he chose Gavilar. Even more weird was the whole thing about Gavilar becoming a Herald, it doesnt exactly fit with Dalinar's journey so far.

I'm not sure who else it could be since he had the same visions.  I think it more likely that Gavilar deliberately misunderstood the stormfather.  Gavilar was appears to be a sociopathic high functioning narcissist.  While this is a manageable problem in of itself I think he was a victim of his own success.  While he had to use his considerable talents to unite a kingdom he apparently got to used to winning afterwards.  Thadikar even warned him about the danger of what he was doing due to the similarity of their experiences.  The major difference was that Thadikar actually kept confidants and trusted others despite everything.  Gavilar didn't ever trust anyone.

[Mage of Lirigon]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I'm not sure who else it could be since he had the same visions.  I think it more likely that Gavilar deliberately misunderstood the stormfather.  Gavilar was appears to be a sociopathic high functioning narcissist.  While this is a manageable problem in of itself I think he was a victim of his own success.  While he had to use his considerable talents to unite a kingdom he apparently got to used to winning afterwards.  Thadikar even warned him about the danger of what he was doing due to the similarity of their experiences.  The major difference was that Thadikar actually kept confidants and trusted others despite everything.  Gavilar didn't ever trust anyone.

Yeah, you can see even see Gavilar ruminate on how he moved away from trusting people (even if they were snakes like Ialai and Sadeas) to manipulating every soul about him, yet it never occurred to him that his success was due to people helping him, not the other way around.

It's infuriating since Gavilar is such a scumbag, but also sad too, in a way. Gavilar had so many people who were willing to think the absolute best of him and he pissed it all away. I really feel sorry for the people who invested so much emotionally in this black hole of a man.

[DiePie]

Said this in the Cosmere Discussions thread, but if this is a Gavilar hate-thread then I think it's worth posting again here: The only thing I'm sad about is how we don't get to see him get his crem get kicked in. Seeing him get humiliated by Szeth would've been such a treat.

[Karger]

46 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Said this in the Cosmere Discussions thread, but if this is a Gavilar hate-thread then I think it's worth posting again here: The only thing I'm sad about is how we don't get to see him get his crem get kicked in. Seeing him get humiliated by Szeth would've been such a treat.

More of a Gavilar discussion thread.  I should probably make the title less inflammatory...

[RedBlue]

On 31/03/2022 at 5:06 PM, Karger said:

Gavilar was so close and yet so far.  Did the stormfather lie to him?  He wanted that guy to succeed him?  I honestly think that the stormfather was a lot less frustrated then I would have been.

I also find Gavilar a fascinating ‘love to hate’ character. He was given so many puzzle pieces, but was unable to see the picture. He fixated on the Words as though they were like a magic spell - say the right thing, and poof - and never thought that the important thing might be the meaning of the Words. He studied The Way of Kings to the point of memorisation, but internalised none of it. So close, yet so far.

And the Stormfather just wasn’t equipped to handle it. I think it’s in large part because the Stormfather isn’t human that he has so much trouble reading Gavilar, and in explaining what he needs Gavilar to do. 

As for why the Stormfather would choose Gavilar, I think the choice makes a lot of sense, in a Stormfather sort of way. You want somebody to win your war? Why not pick the warlord who unified ten notoriously aggressive tribes? Why not pick the king with power, wealth and a great army at his disposal? He doesn’t need to be nice. It doesn’t matter if he’s manipulative, violent, deceitful, or self-aggrandising, as long as he’s effective. 

As for whether the Stormfather can lie - I’ve reread everything we see the Stormfather say to Gavilar onscreen, and assuming he does genuinely intend for Gavilar to become a Herald at some point, then none of it is technically untrue. However, there is so much lying by omission, I don’t think the technicality should matter.

So yes, it seems that the Stormfather can and will lie.

[Jenet]

Yeay! Finally a hate thread I can participate in! But, please relax, I will try to behave. 

I have never liked Gavilar. He was the one playing the great and noble king, sending his brother out to risk his life and reputation. It was not Gavilar who united Alethkar, it was Dalinar. Also, I have always wondered what Gavilar did to Jasnah in her youth. I still do not know if he did, but he seemed so sly. So high and mighty without actually showing any real "kinging" for himself. And Navani says in the Way of KIngs that she had ample reasons to be unfaithful to Gavilar, but she was not. That made me suspicious.

And after the prologue of Rhythm of War, I heartily hated the man, with a small opening for the fact that we had not yet got his version of everything. He seemed to be gaslighting his wife intentionally, maybe he was the original cause of her impostor syndrome, or at least he found the tendency in her, and expoited it. 

It is interesting to compare the two prologues, and see how they see each other, in light of her impostor syndrome and his psychopathic behavior and way of thinking. He takes everyone's victories as his own, and she thinks of all her achievements as somebody else's. As a true psychopath Gavilar manipulates everyone around him. He prefers to talk to people one-on-one instead of grand speeches, because then he can tell different stories to every individual or group, manipulate their minds, and set them up against each other. 

The Stormfather seems to have realized that the Kholin family is a fitting target for his quest, which is to find somebody powerful enough to show the visions to. Somebody with real power to have an impact.  I think it is important to remember that the spren are dependant on bonding with a human to become more sentient and understanding of human values and interaction. And Gavilar is actively trying to manipulate the Stormfather as well. He has found that the Stormfather is unable to read minds. So he tries to behave in a way that the SF will approve of. And the SF becomes confused. He tries to teach and coach Gavilar into becoming a radiant or a Herald, but it does not work because Gavilar is lying. As mentioned in this thread, Gavilar needs to mean the words, not just recite them.

In the end, the Stormfather gives up on Gavilar, and the whole family. And that makes it logical that the SF is so distrustful against Dalinar in the beginning of their relation. But he was ordered by the Almighty, so he has no choice. And the Kholins are undoubtedly the best choices. 

We can also see by how Timbre is coaching Venli, that spren are perfectly capable of inflicting big changes in someone's priorities and behaviour. I think the most important for a Bondsmith spren was to find a person with power to unite. And this person's character would come as a second priority. But Gavilar was so utterly useless that he was discarded anyway. That's saying something.

I was also disgusted to learn how Gavilar manipulated his own brother to become an alcoholic wreck. And I admit I gloated quite a bit when I realized that Gavilar was the one who got Dalinar dead drunk on that night, so he was unable to save his brother. Good on him.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Jenet

[Poopslug The Pooper]

Regarding the theory of "that Stormfather wasn't the real Stormfather), I'm currently re-reading Oathbringer and noticed in one of Dalinar's visions that Dalinar spots "a shimmering in the air, about the size of a building, on the edge of the vision" or something like that.  That description lines up with how the Stormfather is described in the Prologue for Book 5, and right now my hunch is that it's either Odium or one of the Unmade serving Odium.  I'll keep my eye out for other references, but so far the "real" Stormfather has never been described as a "shimmering in the air", even after bonding with Dalinar or officiating Dalinar and Navani's wedding.  He's typically described as either a face as vast as the sky itself, or as a disembodied voice like thunder.  

Regarding Gavilar being a total douchebag,  I can't help but notice that everything about his behavior lines up with the "perfect Alethi ideal".  That of power over anything else, sacrificing friends or relationships in the name of gaining power, and preferring war over peace.  It's what makes Gavilar think he's so correct with everything, despite being flat out wrong.  And a total jerk.  

 

[Jenet]

2 minutes ago, Poopslug The Pooper said:

Regarding the theory of "that Stormfather wasn't the real Stormfather), I'm currently re-reading Oathbringer and noticed in one of Dalinar's visions that Dalinar spots "a shimmering in the air, about the size of a building, on the edge of the vision" or something like that.  That description lines up with how the Stormfather is described in the Prologue for Book 5, and right now my hunch is that it's either Odium or one of the Unmade serving Odium.  I'll keep my eye out for other references, but so far the "real" Stormfather has never been described as a "shimmering in the air", even after bonding with Dalinar or officiating Dalinar and Navani's wedding.  He's typically described as either a face as vast as the sky itself, or as a disembodied voice like thunder.  

Regarding Gavilar being a total douchebag,  I can't help but notice that everything about his behavior lines up with the "perfect Alethi ideal".  That of power over anything else, sacrificing friends or relationships in the name of gaining power, and preferring war over peace.  It's what makes Gavilar think he's so correct with everything, despite being flat out wrong.  And a total jerk.  

 

Yes, it is totally possible that the Stormfather is a fakefather, and that Gavilar is even more clueless than I first thought. Fits his character. And the fact that he is tempting Gavilar with becoming a herald, which seems a little outside the Stormfather's "jurisdiction".

[GudThymes]

18 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I also find Gavilar a fascinating ‘love to hate’ character.

This, 100% this. I think it's because we are being given a character that had immense power and was on the verge of doing incredible good (bringing back the Radiants), but the more we learn about him is that 1) he was doing it for selfish reasons and 2) he's not considering his current and future impact on everyone else. I've read some comments about this prologue somewhat "redeeming" Gavliar in their eyes after RoW and I can't disagree more. We finally see his motivation for why he's treating people around him horribly, which to be fair he acknowledges and that's good, but it's because he honestly believes that he will become immortal and will outlive them so why should he care:

Quote

He regretted how things had been between them lately. That coldness growing—well, grown over—their relationship. It was infecting his relationship with his children as well. Thinking of that sent a stab of pain into his heart. He should...

Everyone you know will be dust by the time you return...

Perhaps this way was best.

Separate thought: I remember when the RoW prologue came out people were trying to explain some of Gavilar's behavior as being under the influence of one of the Unmade. I wonder if we should revisit that idea, the line in italics there doesn't seem very Stormfather. I wonder if one of the Unmade has the ability to give the same visions as the Stormfather and is influencing Gavilar? I am going to do some more thinking now.

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

I remember when the RoW prologue came out people were trying to explain some of Gavilar's behavior as being under the influence of one of the Unmade. I wonder if we should revisit that idea, the line in italics there doesn't seem very Stormfather.

I think the Everyone you know will be dust by the time you return line is Gavilar’s internal thoughts. That’s him reminding himself that he’s got bigger and more important things than his family, so he should distance himself. Take the route that’s less painful for him. (Apparently, his family’s feelings don’t merit Gavilar’s concern. What a guy.)

[GudThymes]

7 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I think the Everyone you know will be dust by the time you return line is Gavilar’s internal thoughts. That’s him reminding himself that he’s got bigger and more important things than his family, so he should distance himself. Take the route that’s less painful for him. (Apparently, his family’s feelings don’t merit Gavilar’s concern. What a guy.)

I'm not sure, and I wonder if it is just an early version thing? I just went back and checked, every italicized line before the one I quoted is "spoken" by the SF. Either way, Gavilar is definitely a trash human.