Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[RedBlue]

I really loved this prologue. Gavilar here was just what I expected from him, and it was very satisfying to see his house of cards come tumbling down around him.

When the title was ‘To Live’, I thought for a minute that Gavilar was going to survive (since there was a theory about that going around), but it seems like that’s not where the story is going.

And it seems like the Chana = Shallan’s mum theory is all but confirmed! I was not expecting that, but it tracks. Now the question is, where is Chana now? What happened to her since her ‘death’? Does this have something to do with Taln’s missing Blade, the mysterious other Shardblade he turned up with, and his appearance in Alethkar? (I assume so!)

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He had at minimum a faint connection to the Stormfather. Meaning he had an even fainter connection to Ishar. Which could have been amplified, if Ishar had his Honorblade, which I'm not entirely sure he does. The timeline doesn't really match up.

If he could do that much against Gavilar who wasn't even a full Bondsmith, why did he have to touch Dalinar?

[Windrunner2319]

6 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Hoo, boy, I work on transcribing the thing, and I miss a whole bunch of pages of discussion. (Transcription is here, by the way. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/495-prologue-to-stormlight-book-five/#e15580)

I've got a few things back from my first post to expound on. First is the bit about Mishram that gets a little funky. Gavilar assumes that the "him" in "one who could rival him" is Thaidakar. But Mishram is the "other god." In contrast to whom? Not Thaidakar; the timelines don't work out, and also that's ridiculous. Odium? That's what seems to be implied by the Stormfather later. Or, perhaps, is it the Rider of Storms who betrayed the singers so long ago? And he's just lying to Gavilar again?

 

And second are the peculiar bits about the Stormfather's presentation to Gavilar, unlike how it manifested to Dalinar, that make me think there's something else going on, that perhaps a piece of Tanavast is hiding inside the Stormfather and manifesting himself on occasion. Note how the Stormfather sometimes acts human (Tanavast), sometimes inhuman (real Stormfather). And the way it says "I have decided," which is a task that Honor set the Stormfather upon. And the eyeless infinity, reminding me of other times people have come face-to-face with actual, full Shards. Oh, and the connection to the Oathpact. It was between Honor and the Heralds; the Stormfather had no place in it. Honor himself would feel the pain of a Herald death, not the Stormfather. Lots of little circumstantial things, but I think they're all pointing towards Honor, the Shard, being around a little more than we'd thought.

 

I think it makes a lot more sense for this shimmering human form to be a piece of Tanavast than it does to be the Herald Ishar. It would definitely explain the future sight. I would like to see Tanavast have more of an impact on current events.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

If he could do that much against Gavilar who wasn't even a full Bondsmith, why did he have to touch Dalinar?

Forging enough of a connection to do a VR voicecall is substantially easier than stealing a third ideal Bondsmith's connection to the Stormfather,

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Forging enough of a connection to do a VR voicecall is substantially easier than stealing a third ideal Bondsmith's connection to the Stormfather,

What makes you say that?

 

Additionally the Stormfather was aware of other people than Gavilar, as well as what they were doing. He also hid his form when other people came in, so Gavilar wasn't the only one who could see him.

[Ashbringer]

6 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

And it seems like the Chana = Shallan’s mum theory is all but confirmed! I was not expecting that, but it tracks. Now the question is, where is Chana now? What happened to her since her ‘death’? Does this have something to do with Taln’s missing Blade, the mysterious other Shardblade he turned up with, and his appearance in Alethkar? (I assume so!)

What it seems like is Dead-Herald-probably-named-Chana lasted all of 5 years before giving up and returning to Braize (along with Taln). Where she went... I wouldn't be too surprised if Hoid found her. (That's also my guess as to where Taln's Blade is, it seems Hoid likes those kind of things.) But I assume we'll find out soon.

 

I'm somewhat more curious as to what kickstarted these things. It seems like the Everstorm is a concentrated set of Voidish Investiture that the Fused can go to instead of Braize, but it still couldn't move over until a Herald died. My guess is Axindweth's Faction (the Ghostbloods? Maybe?) was trying to get Chana or another Herald to die... but that still doesn't explain how Shallan and Jasnah (and Gavilar) started bonding Radiant Spren before the threat of a Desolation began again.

[FiliusHonoris]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Additionally the Stormfather was aware of other people than Gavilar, as well as what they were doing. He also hid his form when other people came in, so Gavilar wasn't the only one who could see him.

Has anyone offered an explanation for why IsharFather would be able to manifest to Gavilar in the physical world outside of the visions?  My understanding of the theory was that Ishar would supposedly be hijacking the Stormfather's visions, which wouldn't apply here.

[Ashbringer]

Ishar also spoke directly to Dalinar from a lot of distance (maybe from the Cognitive Realm) in RoW.

[Windrunner2319]

10 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I'm somewhat more curious as to what kickstarted these things. It seems like the Everstorm is a concentrated set of Voidish Investiture that the Fused can go to instead of Braize, but it still couldn't move over until a Herald died. My guess is Axindweth's Faction (the Ghostbloods? Maybe?) was trying to get Chana or another Herald to die... but that still doesn't explain how Shallan and Jasnah (and Gavilar) started bonding Radiant Spren before the threat of a Desolation began again.

It also doesn't explain how Szeth knew the desolation was coming, and how he became truthless, although I expect we will definitely see an answer to that in Stormlight 5

[teknopathetic]

18 minutes ago, Windrunner2319 said:

It also doesn't explain how Szeth knew the desolation was coming, and how he became truthless, although I expect we will definitely see an answer to that in Stormlight 5

Szeth was training  with the Shardblades, right? Maybe he saw a herald's blade return, but then that fact was covered up? The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know", so maybe a cover-up was made to buy more time, and Szeth was made truthless.

edit: I meant return to Chana, so disappear from Shinivar 

 

edit 2: it is late and my timeline for this makes no sense. This can’t be true. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[FiliusHonoris]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

Szeth was training  with the Shardblades, right? Maybe he saw Chana's blade return, but then that fact was covered up? The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know", so maybe a cover-up was made to buy more time, and Szeth was made truthless.

She apparently died minutes before Szeth attacked Gavilar so I'm not sure that works out.

[RedBlue]

I disagree with the theory that this Stormfather is an imposter. 

My main reason is that I find it to be an unnecessary complication. The Stormfather is acting completely in character the whole time. His voice and mannerisms are the same. He’s still bad-tempered, lacking in empathy and communication skills, and thinks he’s above everyone else. He’s a bully. He dislikes humans, which is why he views Gavilar as a tool to be manipulated, not as an equal partner.

The big change in his behaviour is how he treats Gavilar differently than he treats Dalinar. This makes perfect sense, given that he regrets how his efforts with Gavilar ended. He has given up on the Kholins as useful tools, so during WoK and WoR, he keeps Dalinar at arm’s length. During OB and RoW, the Radiants and Singers are back, so Stormfather grudgingly ‘helps’ (I suspect he’s still holding out on Dalinar).

There is also the change in the way the Stormfather presents himself (sometimes appearing to Gavilar as a human-shaped figure). I think this is a minor difference, as we know that normal spren can change their appearance like this at will, and often do so as a means of expressing themselves. Appearing as a vaguely-human shimmer is part of the Stormfather’s attempt to manipulate Gavilar. He doesn’t use it on Dalinar because the situation between them is very different.

A secondary reason is that I’m not convinced by the Stormfaker theory is: there’s nobody who could successfully imitate the Stormfather. Ishar may be able to do something with Connection, but he’s insane. He’s nowhere near functional enough to keep up this charade for years without breaking character. Likewise, this doesn’t seem like a plan Rayse would come up with, even assuming it would be possible (seems unlikely). And if it’s some other spren, like another chunk of Honor - why haven’t we heard about it before now?

In short: if it talks like a Stormfather and rumbles like a Stormfather, chances are it’s the Stormfather.

[Windrunner2319]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Szeth was training  with the Shardblades, right? Maybe he saw Chana's blade return, but then that fact was covered up? The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know", so maybe a cover-up was made to buy more time, and Szeth was made truthless.

I mean the blade should have disappeared when Chana died, not appeared.

[Ashbringer]

I think there's a WoB that someone told Szeth something was coming, and far before the events of the Prologue (not that far, but Szeth wasn't that new to being Truthless).

Also I doubt the Blades are much affected by their Heralds... although are only real example is Jezrien who's a special case.

[Windrunner2319]

4 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I think there's a WoB that someone told Szeth something was coming, and far before the events of the Prologue (not that far, but Szeth wasn't that new to being Truthless).

Also I doubt the Blades are much affected by their Heralds... although are only real example is Jezrien who's a special case.

I was just going off the basis, that when Taln died, his blade with with. Now that the Oathpact is broken it could be a very different story.

[teknopathetic]

10 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

 

11 minutes ago, FiliusHonoris said:

She apparently died minutes before Szeth attacked Gavilar so I'm not sure that works out.

Oh fair enough! There goes that theory haha 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[RedBlue]

33 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

What it seems like is Dead-Herald-probably-named-Chana lasted all of 5 years before giving up and returning to Braize (along with Taln).

According to my understanding, probably-Chana should have gone straight to Braize upon ‘dying’, right? At which point she would have been captured and tortured by Fused trying to break her.

We know the current Desolation is a result of shenanigans with the Everstorm, which is different from what happens when a Herald breaks. So I can think of a few possibilities:

• Probably-Chana never broke. She spent the next six years refusing to break, at which point the Everstorm stuff happened, so the Fused lost interest. Presumably, she is still on Braize now.
• Somebody intercepted probably-Chana on her way to Braize. No idea who. No idea how. No idea where she is now (other than still in the Rosharan system).
• Probably-Chana did actually break, but the Fused and Odium didn’t take advantage of it because they wanted to wait for the Everstorm. It does give the Fused a tactical advantage. Her breaking allowed Taln to show up ahead of the Everstorm, and Chana would have shown up somewhere on Roshar at the same time.

 

I actually like the theory that Chana broke after five years. It explains the situation with Taln, and I haven’t seen any other real theories about that so far. Chana could have been the person to swap Taln’s Honorblade with the mystery Shardblade (Chana could have had it bonded to her when she died, and taken it to Braize with her).

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Ishar also spoke directly to Dalinar from a lot of distance (maybe from the Cognitive Realm) in RoW.

It wasn't that far, and he sent a signal to Dalinar via the Windrunners so obviously not something he can do long distance.

27 minutes ago, Windrunner2319 said:

I was just going off the basis, that when Taln died, his blade with with. Now that the Oathpact is broken it could be a very different story.

4 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I actually like the theory that Chana broke after five years. It explains the situation with Taln, and I haven’t seen any other real theories about that so far. Chana could have been the person to swap Taln’s Honorblade with the mystery Shardblade (Chana could have had it bonded to her when she died, and taken it to Braize with her).

Taln took his blade to Braize when he died at Aheriatam because he was still bonded to it.

[RedBlue]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Taln took his blade to Braize when he died at Aheriatam because he was still bonded to it.

Yes, and now that Blade is missing. The Blade Taln has when he turns up in WoK isn’t his Honorblade, it’s a dead Shardblade. We still don’t know where the Honorblade is. And we don’t know how he got the dead Shardblade. He can’t have died with it, since dead Blades didn’t exist at the time. 

[Ashbringer]

12 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

According to my understanding, probably-Chana should have gone straight to Braize upon ‘dying’, right? At which point she would have been captured and tortured by Fused trying to break her.

We know the current Desolation is a result of shenanigans with the Everstorm, which is different from what happens when a Herald breaks. So I can think of a few possibilities:

• Probably-Chana never broke. She spent the next six years refusing to break, at which point the Everstorm stuff happened, so the Fused lost interest. Presumably, she is still on Braize now.
• Somebody intercepted probably-Chana on her way to Braize. No idea who. No idea how. No idea where she is now (other than still in the Rosharan system).
• Probably-Chana did actually break, but the Fused and Odium didn’t take advantage of it because they wanted to wait for the Everstorm. It does give the Fused a tactical advantage. Her breaking allowed Taln to show up ahead of the Everstorm, and Chana would have shown up somewhere on Roshar at the same time.

 

I actually like the theory that Chana broke after five years. It explains the situation with Taln, and I haven’t seen any other real theories about that so far. Chana could have been the person to swap Taln’s Honorblade with the mystery Shardblade (Chana could have had it bonded to her when she died, and taken it to Braize with her).

... oops. Meant broke after 5 years of being on Braize then returned to Roshar with Taln. But yeah I agree.

1 minute ago, RedBlue said:

Yes, and now that Blade is missing. The Blade Taln has when he turns up in WoK isn’t his Honorblade, it’s a dead Shardblade. We still don’t know where the Honorblade is. And we don’t know how he got the dead Shardblade. He can’t have died with it, since dead Blades didn’t exist at the time. 

The Blade Taln has in WoK is noticibly different than the one Dalinar gets in WoR. So the going theory is he did have his Honorblade in WoK, but somehow it was replaced with a normal ShardBlade after he returned. Maybe he's still Bonded to the Honorblade, maybe he's not, I'm not entirely sure how that works with him dropping it.

[RedBlue]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

The Blade Taln has in WoK is noticibly different than the one Dalinar gets in WoR. So the going theory is he did have his Honorblade in WoK, but somehow it was replaced with a normal ShardBlade after he returned. Maybe he's still Bonded to the Honorblade, maybe he's not, I'm not entirely sure how that works with him dropping it.

So he still has his Honorblade in WoK, but somebody swaps it out for a dead Blade at some point before Dalinar picks him up? Gotcha.

[Friendshipspren]

11 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

 

We get Taravangian's origin story, kind of. I'm not sure if the new Death Rattle is a general warning against the Desolation, or something that will actually happen in the books.

Gavilar's last words make much more sense now.

I think the death rattle was referring to taravangian and gavilar standing before the map of Roshar and saying those exact words 

[Nathrangking]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Vistim's visit means that the Unmade was not in control until years after Gavilar's assassination.

Ishar said there was an Unmade and that Szeth's father was dead. Taravangian said the same thing.

See above.

I think it's the same Stormfather, however after seeing what Gavilar does he decides to approach bonding differently. I'm assuming replacing the Heralds will become a big point of SA 5.

Forgive me if the words that come from their mouths are less than trustworthy. They did not even have to coordinate to easily manipulate someone that they knew to be unstable at best. 

The base stormfather that we have seen to this point is so starkly different to what we have seen that chalking it up to a change in methods seems for too extreme to easily explain what we see in this prologue. 

[Ashbringer]

20 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Forgive me if the words that come from their mouths are less than trustworthy. They did not even have to coordinate to easily manipulate someone that they knew to be unstable at best. 

The base stormfather that we have seen to this point is so starkly different to what we have seen that chalking it up to a change in methods seems for too extreme to easily explain what we see in this prologue. 

Szeth's father was also the one that was in charge of Ishar's Honorblade, which means Ishar took it from him one way or another.

It could have theoretically happened betweened Szeth's expulsion and his assassination of Gavilar, giving Ishar the connection powers he'd needed, but I sort of doubt that.

[Cocoa]

I'm heavily on-board with the StormFaker (specifically Ishar being the impersonator) theory. I hadn't quite put it all together while listening to the prologue, but it makes sense of a lot of things that had stuck out as odd to me in a very logical way. I also want to comment on two of the points brought up against it, the WoBs that Gavilar was on the path to being a Bondsmith for a while and the he was receiving visions from the Stormfather. Looking at the visions WoB, Brandon says that they're the same visions, but technically comes just short of saying that the Stormfather himself was the one sending them (though that would be the logical conclusion to reach with what we knew at the time). As for the Bondsmith WoB, if Ishar was trying to find a way to replace himself with Gavilar in the Oathpact, then I would certainly say Gavilar was on the path to being a Bondsmith... just a Bondsmith Herald, not a Bondsmith Radiant.

Also, hype for further evidence of "Chanarach was Shallan's mom, went to Braize when Shallan killed her, and broke almost instantly as opposed to Taln breaking" theory, since according to the people who have done the math the timelines fit together almost perfectly.