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Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here


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3 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

My current take: Gavilar is an idiot.

 

I also think the Stormfather's appearance is really similar to a certain pair of mist spirits... I'm in Team Tanavast. Or at least a fragment of Tanavast.

honestly YES. maybe akin to the shadows of self. Gavilar is the cremmiest (auto correct says creamiest) idiot of all SA!

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1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

honestly YES. maybe akin to the shadows of self. Gavilar is the cremmiest (auto correct says creamiest) idiot of all SA!

moash would like to say hi

also i didnt even find him that bad
he gets a min-redemption right there at the end when he thinks of his family

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Just now, Dannnex said:

moash would like to say hi

also i didnt even find him that bad
he gets a min-redemption right there at the end when he thinks of his family

true, true. Gavilar might be the fourth most idiotic cremling in SA. (current alignment is. Moash, ROdium, Amaram, Gavilar, Mraize.)

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I think the reason that the Stormfather seemed so much like a different person with Gavilar than he did with Gavilar I think is because he is. Brandon has implied before that the Stormfather has started the bonding process with more people than just Gavilar and Dalinar.
 

Quote

coltonx9

How many people, about, were sent visions by the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather? It was less than ten. Fewer than ten.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

there might be a better WoB for it, but this is the only one I could find on short notice. But the way I interpret it as is that the Stormfather starts bonding Gavilar (maybe it's his first try, maybe it's not, but it's early on in his search), and Gavilar turns out to be a pile of crem. Just terrible, wants nothing other than to be immortal and his big pitch to the Stormfather is to knowingly cause the deaths of millions. So after Gavilar's death, he swears to himself not to choose Dalinar (whom he remarks has potential) with the fear that he'll turn up like Gavilar, and goes off to try and find someone else to be a Bondsmith. Over the course of the next 6 years he fails miserably, and eventually he, running out of time, turns to Dalinar as his last option. The Stormfather hates this, and between that and how badly he handled Gavilar he spends the early days between him and Dalinar being very distant, to the point that Dalinar has to go to the top of Urithiru and guilt trip the Stormfather into accepting his first oath. The Stormfather, while still proud, is much more humble and suspicious when we first meet him. He hates that he was proven wrong so many times.

Also I think that a good reason the Stormfather flip flopped between being more storm-like and more human-like has to do with how breaking oaths effects bonded Spren: When Kaladin breaks his oaths, Syl begins to act more like a Windspren and loses a lot of her mental ability. I think that when Gavilar was closer to saying the first oath the Stormfather was more human-like, and when he was further away the Stormfather acted less like a person.

On another note, the only thing I didn't like about the reading was how we didn't see Gavilar get his crem kicked in by Szeth.

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1 minute ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

I am just glad Gavilar did not know as much as he seemed to. It always bothered me that a "regular" mortal in the span of less than one lifetime could rise to the likes of heralds and Thaidakar. Knowing that he was a bit clueless is way more realistic and, in my opinion, satisfying. >:)

Agreed, there was definitely a level of satisfaction in realizing that we, the fans, know more in some ways than a person that's been built up as some kind of genius mastermind.

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1 hour ago, Dannnex said:

moash would like to say hi

also i didnt even find him that bad
he gets a min-redemption right there at the end when he thinks of his family

Yeah, I definitely think Gavilar's not as terrible a person as he seemed in OB/RoW era. Am I very glad he didn't end up being a Herald or a Shard (as far as we know :ph34r:)? Oh yeah. Is T-Odium much much scarier? Most definitely :P

Also much better than Moash. Gavilar's just someone who dabbled in powers and games he did not understand, and in the end he gave the rest of a Roshar a chance at the expense of his legacy. I do hope we get a bit more of him though. He got Voidlight and Anti-Voidlight from somewhere...

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1 hour ago, Serack said:

@LewsTherinTelescope,

I put a lot of effort into summarizing the main discussion going on in this topic about the theory that someone is impersonating The Stormfather here

 

Do you think you could link this in the OP, or could I possibly make a new post of it?

Hi, sorry, the OP for these threads is more to just give you all a platform, rather than try and index people's various thoughts. You can certainly make a separate topic (tag with [SA5 Prologue] ) if you're worried about it being lost in the shuffle.

That'd be like having our RoW Full Book reactions link to people's individual reactions. That's a bit odd.

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1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

Agreed, there was definitely a level of satisfaction in realizing that we, the fans, know more in some ways than a person that's been built up as some kind of genius mastermind.

Also agree. Granted, I was hoping for more juicy secrets to be revealed in this prologue, but I am pleased with what we saw.

I reread Oathbringer a few months ago and I am fairly certain that Dalinar's Stormfather manifests as a simmering presence in one or more of the visions. I believe it's when he brings Queen Fen in, but it might have been one of the ones with Yanagawn. So that's a point in favor of the Same Stormfather theory.

Personally, I am in favor of the StormFaker theory. I don't have any additional pieces of evidence to offer, but I do think Ishar is the most likely candidate. I find it odd that the real Stormfather doesn't sense the presence or interference of the StormFaker, so my theory is that the real Stormfather had already moved on from Gavilar some time before the night of Gavilar's death. Ishar then swooped in, picked up where the Stormfather left off, and started influencing Gavilar. Since Gavilar had already seen the visions, Ishar was able to access them through that prior Connection and show them to Gavilar at Gavilar's will.

As for the StormFaker/Ishar foreseeing Gavilar's death, well... Ishar's called the Herald of Luck for a reason, right?

(Small aluminum hat theory: if the StormFaker is not Ishar, then perhaps El????)

Edited by Cheat Commando
turned "seeing" into "foreseeing"
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19 minutes ago, Cheat Commando said:

Unfortunately for me, that is a good point...

There are likely many ways. I assume the Herald of connection would be very very in the know about what is possible, be it in-world magic, off-world magic, using spren, or using other forms of connection. I dont think not knowing is proof against here. 

How does Dalinar get a vision from Noadon? How does Khal meet Tien? How does Hoid connect with Khal in the Braize vision? How does Lift get into the Visions? 

There are a lot of connection things going on on Roshar that dont have full explanations yet.  

Edited by teknopathetic
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3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

This bit about Axindweth is intriguing:

This seems a very different explanation of her departure than we got from Ulim in RoW 77:

From this it sounds like Gavilar wanted to continue working with her. The inference is that she had somehow helped him to bring Voidspren through to Roshar and that, without her help, he’d need fabrials to do it.  Which begs two questions:

1. Why did Axindweth actually stop helping Gavilar?

2. Why did she lie to Ulim about her reasons for leaving?

The impression I get is that Gavilar thinks the "conniving" Axindweth tried to manipulate him and then ran away after he grew suspicious, when in reality she was discovered by rivals, framed and forced to flee.

Speaking of which, there was a Feruchemist keeping an eye on Dalinar up until ROW...

Spoiler

starman2995

Who owned the red chicken, and what was its purpose?

Brandon Sanderson

The red chicken was owned by the Feruchemist who was keeping an eye on Dalinar in his house.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

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3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

There are likely many ways. I assume the Herald of connection would be very very in the know about what is possible, be it in-world magic, off-world magic, using spren, or using other forms of connection. 

How does Dalinar get a vision from Noadon? How does Khal meet Tien? How does Hoid connect with Khal in the Braize vision? How does Lift get into the Visions?

 There are a lot of connection things going on on Roshar. 

... how did Kaladin meet Tien? His brother?

... Oh, do you mean in the RoW vision? That is a good question, but probably via Dalinar Connection Shenanigans. Seems to be a Bondsmith (and thus likely Stormfather/Sibling/Nightwatcher) specialty. As for Ishar... not sure. Depends how much he could do during the Desolations.

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4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

There are likely many ways. I assume the Herald of connection would be very very in the know about what is possible, be it in-world magic, off-world magic, using spren, or using other forms of connection. I dont think not knowing is not proof here. 

Ishar doesn't manipulate Connection in RoW until he touches the individual.

5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

How does Dalinar get a vision from Noadon? How does Khal meet Tien?

Both of those seem to be built as evidence for the God Beyond.

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

How does Hoid connect with Khal in the Braize vision? 

He has a pre-established Connection to Kal.

7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

How does Lift get into the Visions? 

She was made by Cultivation "Specifically to defy my(Stormfather's) will."

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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ishar doesn't manipulate Connection in RoW until he touches the individual.

Both of those seem to be built as evidence for the God Beyond.

He has a pre-established Connection to Kal.

She was made by Cultivation "Specifically to defy my(Stormfather's) will."

What I am saying with these is that there are multiple ways. If we had never seen Lift slide into a vision, we would all say it isnt possible. I think we should be opened minded when it comes to a Herald. Who is to say Ishar isnt using a connection fabrial? We know there are ways to use surges without a blade, so we cant take "how does he connect" as counter evidence. A herald simply has too many resources for us to discount when we consider fabrials and adapted arts. Maybe the herald of Bondmsiths is connected to potential bondsmiths. Who knows?

Someone saying Kelsier uses a shapeshifting invisible Seon to pose as himself offworld would have been laughed out of the room 2 years ago. I think we have to let Gods be godly here and there. 

What we know is that something is very off with the Stormfather. If it is a fake, then there is a way to fake it. If Brandon wanted it to be a fake, there would be a way to do so. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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In my opinion the Stormfather offered his own perfectly reasonable explanation for the different way he behaves with Dalinar, assuming that he is indeed the same Stormfather.  Gavilar ultimately let the Stormfather down because of the influence of the Vorin religion as well as his firm belief that he had been chosen by a god-like entity to ascend as a Herald because the Stormfather told him just that.  The Stormfather acknowledges that Gavilar's Vorin upbringing was a primary contributor to his failure, and that in retrospect it was inevitable and should have been obvious.  He also mentions that it was a mistake to be so open with Gavilar and to provide information so "easily".

It seems to me that the Stormfather rectified those mistakes with Dalinar.  By being withdrawn and reticent, he forces Dalinar to fight tooth and nail for every scrap of information.  Dalinar has to go on his own journey to uncover a lot of these higher mysteries rather than having the destination of ascendance presented early on.  During this search for information, he's even forced to abandon the shackles of the Vorin religion and he ultimately comes to the conclusion that the solution to their predicament must lie within the recreation of the Oathpact.

I could go on but I'll leave it at that and see what you guys think. I am pretty firmly convinced that it was the real Stormfather, merely learning from his mistakes and taking a different approach with Dalinar in order to fulfill Honor's directive.

 
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10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He has a connection to other Bondsmiths, and Gavilar was a Bondsmith candidate. That might have given enough of a connection.

Was Gavilar a Bondsmith?

9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

What I am saying with these is that there are multiple ways. If we had never seen Lift slide into a vision, we would all say it isnt possible. I think we should be opened minded when it comes to a Herald. Who is to say Ishar isnt using a connection fabrial? We know there are ways to use surges without a blade, so we cant take "how does he connect" as counter evidence. A herald simply has too many resources for us to discount when we consider fabrials and adapted arts. 

Someone saying Kelsier uses a Seon would have been klaughed out of the room 2 years ago. I think we have to let Gods be godly here and there.

For clairification are you asking me to allow you to continue to theorise? Or to stop coming up with problems with it?

9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

What we know is that something is very off with the Stormfather. If it is a fake, then there is a way to fake it. 

I don't think anything is off.

Edited by Frustration
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How would Ishar know if another herald died? I seem to remember in The Way of Kings opening that Kalak didn’t know that Taln died in the battle. Not until Jezrien told him at leadt. Do we have any confirmation that a herald knows when another herald dies? Jezrien’s death was a final death so thats different. I assumed that was the only reason the other heralds felt it.

I do agree that the Stormfather is portrayed as way different in this prologue but his knowledge of a herald’s death makes me think it must be the real Stormfather.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Was Gavilar a Bondsmith?

He had at minimum a faint connection to the Stormfather. Meaning he had an even fainter connection to Ishar. Which could have been amplified, if Ishar had his Honorblade, which I'm not entirely sure he does. The timeline doesn't really match up.

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