Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Kvothe the Bloodless]

On 4/21/2022 at 11:51 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Dalinar: Killing four people when we know one of them is innocent is just wrong, taravangian!

Tara: We can't just let 3 criminals go! Anyway we try some innocent people will die in a justice system! That's just how things work

Dalinar: Ah but you forget, the death of an innocent person then happens due to a lack of knowledge, it wasn't intentional.

Tara: So the fact that it was an accident excuses it!?

Dalinar: No but the blame then lies on the investigators-

Tara: You know what, we have been arguing for 300 years now, i really should try to start to escape this oathpact. I have a lot of plans for the cosmere

Dalinar: Fine!...

Tara: (looks at dalinar judgingly)

Dalinar: (looks at Tara, judging him harder)

Tara: ...

Tara: The main point here was-

Narrator: And Roshar was safe from odium for eternity.

Yeah this is probably Brandon's exact outline for SA5

[Quantus]

(Cross-posting from the Support group thread to get the counter arguments.  @Serack, mind catching me up to the general state of the discussion?  I know you have it tabulated somewhere. )

 

Ive been away in the dark times for a while so I've missed most of the conversation on this and don't really know where the theories stand (or why this one needs it's own support group...)  Ill try to catch up soon, sorry. But in the meantime:

My current belief is that Gavilar was talking to the Stormfather sometimes and the Everstorm in at least most the prologue, and had been consistently lied to by the Everstorm.  I think the Everstorm is trying to bond a Bondsmith, and was piggy-backing the Stormfather's Connection to his potential Bondsmith, hoping to steal Gavilar by guiding him to wildly different Words. The standout details that drive me to that are:

• The Lying.  The Stormfather hates so much as being misquoted to the point that it's the only time he gets verbose.  
• The wildly different physical manifestations.  No other Spren has show anything close to that level of difference, even when they can shapeshift like Syl.
• The fact that he actively steers Gavilar away from the real words and towards some other more aggressive sounding ones (much like the difference in the old vs Void Rhythms, feels like).
  • "It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there.” Not even close, the spren said.
  • VS
  • "“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.” The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them."

I think the Everstorm was trying to steal the Stormfather's potential candidate, but decided that tricking somebody that aspired to be a Radiant wasnt the way to go (too much mixing of conflicting ideologies) so he's going to jump to a more pure and properly prepared Odious champion like Moash (or anyone else that has been presented as a Champion candidate). 

 

[king of nowhere]

While all the arguments for the stormfaker are sound and certainly possible, one reason I'm in the "real stormfather, prior character development" field is that brandon likes to deconstruct, reconstruct and justify the fantasy tropes. And one of them is the jackass genie, the powerful supernatural entity that's bound to help you, but will try not to.

I mean, the stormfather is not particularly cooperative with Dalinar, he withold information and often fights back for no particular reason. And the stormfather would be killed by odium; he's got even more to lose than humans. Why the stormfather would be so obstructive?

And if this prologue features the real stormfather, it makes perfect sense. The stormfather tried to cooperate, he tried to give gavilar all he needed. In turn, gavilar swindled him and tried to use him and his power for personal gain.

The stormfather got a lot more mistrustful of humans, and he's been oppositive partly as a test of character to make sure dalinar is really committed, and partly for fear of being taken advantage of again. it's the perfect setup to how the stormfather behaves now

[Borderlander]

In the TWOK Prelude, Kelek wonders “did the other eight die?” as he approaches Jezien, and summarizes Talenel had died based on his being the missing blade.   

Shalash knows when Jezien is killed, but this is pointed out to be an abnormal death, given it’s permanent. And he’s her father.  Also, he’s the leader of the heralds.  So there are potentially some reasons why she (and perhaps the other heralds) can sense his death suggesting that may be out of the ordinary.     

Presumably, the herald that died in the prologue didn’t die a “final death” the likes of Jezien.  

So my questions after reading this are:  A) did the other heralds sense the death of the herald in the prologue (and presumably still know this occurred)?  And, how did stormfather know about the death?  Would the stormfather always sense when a Herald dies? 

[cometaryorbit]

The "...Herald" bit is interesting. So, is the Stormfather lying through his teeth here (which would support the Stormfaker idea) or does he want to make Gavilar something kind-of-a-Herald-yet-not-quite (which might support real Stormfather, depending on the details)?

One idea that occurs to me is that the SF intended he would become a Bondsmith first, like Dalinar, then use his Bondsmith powers to re-build the Oathpact somehow centered on himself. So... sort of a Herald but not exactly like the existing ones.

But he didn't try this with Dalinar since once the Everstorm was active the Oathpact was useless?

[NerdyAarakocra]

Well! That's another Stormlight faction! I am definitely able to sort out all of their goals.

(Storms, Gavilar's goals are going to mess up everything, aren't they.)

[Asha'man Logain]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:44 PM, teknopathetic said:

Ishar was God-Kinging before he had his blade, so this makes me think he had access to some magic before then. 

IIRC, wasn't Ishar a Bondsmith on Ashyn, before he got the honorblade on Roshar?

[cometaryorbit]

Something like it, at least... this may be a kind of loose use of terminology like how all magic is Surgebinding and Cognitive Shadows are spren to Rosharans.

But probably something at least close, like Hoid's pre-Oathbringer Yolish Lightweaving or AonDor illusions vs. the Rosharan Order of Lightweavers.

[Bnaya]

On 13.5.2022 at 7:08 AM, Borderlander said:

Shalash knows when Jezien is killed, but this is pointed out to be an abnormal death, given it’s permanent. And he’s her father.  Also, he’s the leader of the heralds.  So there are potentially some reasons why she (and perhaps the other heralds) can sense his death suggesting that may be out of the ordinary

Here is the epigraph from RoW capter 79, these are kalak's words:

"Jezrien is gone. Despite being all the way out here in Lasting Integrity, I felt him being ripped away. The Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent. And with further investigation, I know the truth of what happened to him. It felt like death at first, and I think that is what it ultimately became."

so, "each of us can sense the others, to an extent", and Kalak felt Jezrien capture, and conclude that he dies afterward.

[teknopathetic]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:08 PM, Borderlander said:

In the TWOK Prelude, Kelek wonders “did the other eight die?” as he approaches Jezien, and summarizes Talenel had died based on his being the missing blade.   

Shalash knows when Jezien is killed, but this is pointed out to be an abnormal death, given it’s permanent. And he’s her father.  Also, he’s the leader of the heralds.  So there are potentially some reasons why she (and perhaps the other heralds) can sense his death suggesting that may be out of the ordinary.     

Presumably, the herald that died in the prologue didn’t die a “final death” the likes of Jezien.  

So my questions after reading this are:  A) did the other heralds sense the death of the herald in the prologue (and presumably still know this occurred)?  And, how did stormfather know about the death?  Would the stormfather always sense when a Herald dies? 

To me, Ishar might not be the same as the other heralds in terms of feeling the Oathpact due to the fact that Ishar was the one who forged the Oathpact. The regular heralds within the Oathpact cannot feel a go-to-Braize death, but maybe the creator of the Oathpact might be able to feel changes in it. I think it makes sense that Ishar might be more sensitive than others in this regard as someone who somehow manipulated bonds in such a powerful way. Since Ishar made the strings of connection, him feeling them acutely makes sense to me. 

And when it comes to Kelek at the renouncing, the heralds had already dispersed before Kelek was even done fighting. If Ishar left before Kelek was done fighting, then those who remained to wait for a bit wouldn't know the fate of Kelek. From Ishars POV, it doesn't really matter if Kelek dies or not - as long as Taln is dead the plan is fine. If Kelek dies a little after the renunciation, so much the better as far as Ishar would care (though, I have always been very very suspicious of the fact no one died except Taln though. This has always reeked of conspiracy). 

We just know Ishar was the one who forged the Oathpact without any knowledge of who/what else was involved. For all we know, it was Ishar and a Dawnshard or Ishar with some leftover Ashyn artifact or Ishar and his Honourblade. There just isn't any information here.

Honour is involved in the binding of Odium, but that is not the same thing as the Oathpact. The Oathpact is a newer thing than trapping Odium in the system. The Oathpact, as far as we know, is just about trapping Fused. And as far as we know, this was something Ishar did. We have a WOB that Honour was involved, but how much is anyone's guess. And just because Honour was involved doesn't mean Honour/Stormfavast-Shadow would feel anything.  

Edited May 24, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Onironte]

Confirms Kelsier's candidacy as head of the Ghostbloods,
And another point worth mentioning is that it shows that Heralds are made, not born.
But what most strikes me is that there are a huge number of powerful organizations and factions, so it surprises me that, after Gavilar's death, they leave.
Not sending assassins, not putting up resistance, not even pulling strings...

 

 

[Onironte]

 

Something even more rare, is that a radiant (Gavilar) could become a herald.
This implicitly asks a question: if Gavilar could be Herald and Radiant, the other Heralds can be too.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Onironte

[Frustration]

@Onironte please don't double post(posting twice or more in a row) you can edit your previous post.

[Elegy]

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

This implicitly asks a question: if Gavilar could be Herald and Radiant, the other Heralds can be too.

Nale is a fifth Ideal Radiant, so yes.

[Onironte]

In addition to Nale.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Onironte

[SymphonianBookworm]

I just saw this and was like;

Wow. Gavilar's actually evil. Huh...

[JaySurge]

14 minutes ago, SymphonianBookworm said:

I just saw this and was like;

Wow. Gavilar's actually evil. Huh...

Me too.

Up to this point he's set up to be a great man and king, seeing him through Dalinar and Elhokar's eyes. Navani's view of him is where we start to get hints that Gavilar may not be that great of a man. Of course I didn't quite think him evil till I read his viewpoint.

[SymphonianBookworm]

Just now, JaySurge said:

Me too.

Up to this point he's set up to be a great man and king, seeing him through Dalinar and Elhokar's eyes. Navani's view of him is where we start to get hints that Gavilar may not be that great of a man. Of course I didn't quite think him evil till I read his viewpoint.

Welcome to the Shard! 

Yeah, whenever they talked about Gavilar they said how great he was, what an awesome king, but reading this...

Storms, man. You're evil... Cospiring against the Stormfather? Becoming a Herald? Talking to Thaidakar?

[AceBassMan]

Alright, I finally read the prologue and caught up on everyone's theories in this topic, I must say that the Stormfather has every right to be a more complex character, but if there is someone impersonating him very few people here have addressed that he speaks directly into Gavilar's mind. The characters that are shown to do that:

The Stormfather (could be himself)

Shardholders (could be any one of them, with their power)

Nightblood (pretty sure its not NB)

Spren to their bonded Radiant (Gavilar wasn't radiant)

the meekers on Patji (yeah, no)

Sja Anat

I think Sja Anat is the most likely candidate if the Stormfather was being impersonated.

She is the unmade that was feared most.

She in interested in being a god in her own right.

She has been in Kholinar (no corrupted spren were seen previous to Oathbringer, but Glys had likely been corrupted there)

@coolsnow7 had said earlier that The Stormfather could possibly have been corrupted by Sja-Anat, I think that is the most likely explanation besides The Stormfather just being The Stormfather. His storming eyes and all the other powers he shows in the prologue would be hard to  imitate. Corrupted Stormfather becomes Everstorm anyone?

 

 

 

[Procrastination]

I feel bad for Dalinar. He spent years feeling guilty and forced himself to follow the Codes because his beloved brother told him to, and now we find out what Gavilar really thought of him and how he just told him to follow the Codes to manipulate him. 

Also, about the Stormfather/Stormfaker telling him that a demand was almost the Words: I thought that was odd as well. However, I also thought that maybe the Stormfather/Stormfaker meant something different. Instead of saying that the words themselves were correct, perhaps he meant that the Words could be considered a kind of demand to the Radiant: a demand to be better, especially because it appears that Gavilar may have become the Stormfather's Bondsmith. I don't have the exact quote, but doesn't the Stormfather/Stormfaker say something along the lines of "we have no bond"? This could imply that Gavilar was trying to bond him when he was guessing the Words. I know it's a stretch, and that the Stormfather/Stormfaker could have been lying, but I like this theory regardless.

Edited August 8, 2022 by rosharian_cat

[+Child of Hodor]

On 8/7/2022 at 8:08 PM, rosharian_cat said:

I feel bad for Dalinar. He spent years feeling guilty and forced himself to follow the Codes because his beloved brother told him to, and now we find out what Gavilar really thought of him and how he just told him to follow the Codes to manipulate him. 

Also, about the Stormfather/Stormfaker telling him that a demand was almost the Words: I thought that was odd as well. However, I also thought that maybe the Stormfather/Stormfaker meant something different. Instead of saying that the words themselves were correct, perhaps he meant that the Words could be considered a kind of demand to the Radiant: a demand to be better, especially because it appears that Gavilar may have become the Stormfather's Bondsmith. I don't have the exact quote, but doesn't the Stormfather/Stormfaker say something along the lines of "we have no bond"? This could imply that Gavilar was trying to bond him when he was guessing the Words. I know it's a stretch, and that the Stormfather/Stormfaker could have been lying, but I like this theory regardless.

That was such a gut punch to learn that Gavilar said it to ensure he drank. Then I thought about it and if someone telling Dalinar essentially "be careful" made him binge drink it really doesn't take much at all. Gavilar is still terrible though. 

In OB ch. 84 Queen Aesudan told Kaladin and Eholokar that Gavilar found an "ancient spren", but never bonded it. It was when she was bragging about how she swallowed the gemstone with Yelig-nar in it and found 2 other Unmade. So I guess he had like a proto-bond, he hadn't gotten to the first ideal yet. 

I'm not sure what Stormfather wanted Gavilar to say. I assumed he is trying to trick Gavilar into becoming a Bondsmith or something, but what he said seems nowhere close to the normal first ideal and it doesn't seem like an ideal since those are usually about pledging to behave a certain way. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[alder24]

On 8.08.2022 at 3:08 AM, rosharian_cat said:

Also, about the Stormfather/Stormfaker telling him that a demand was almost the Words: I thought that was odd as well. 

I think that it was the very first words Gavilar said with true intent behind them. He really needs it and wanted to have it, whatever it is. All previous attempts were just guesses without actually meaning the words. Even later the Stormfather said that "It's not the words that matter". However I'm not so sure if SF wants to be bonded to Gavilar or it's about creating new Herald or maybe even something completely different.

21 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

In OB ch. 84 Queen Aesudan told Kaladin and Eholokar that Gavilar found an "ancient spren", but never bonded it. It was when she was bragging about how she swallowed the gemstone with Yelig-nar in it and found 2 other Unmade. So I guess he had like a proto-bond, he hadn't gotten to the first ideal yet. 

I totally forget about that, when I was reading this prologue, as there was no sign or mention of said Unmade. I wonder if it will change on premiere or it will be important later in the book at all. 

[11thHerald]

On 3/30/2022 at 3:13 PM, Gilphon said:

So I'm thinking that it does kind of need to be either Chana or Vedel that died here- I would presume that what happened here is that whichever Herald died this chapter was sent to Braize for five years, and then broke sometimes around the end of WoK. Jezrien, Nale, Kalak and Shalash were at the palace, and weren't dying. Taln, Ishar and Battar are accounted for during those five years, and Pailiah more or less is.

And there's Vedel, where we just have no information whatsoever on her current whereabouts, and Chana, where all we actually know is that she appears onscreen at some point in the first two books. Which would make it more likely to be Vedel at first glance, but the theory people have been tossing around today about Chana's identity is a plausible one. 

I might be misremembering, but isn't there a WOB (or at least a lot of speculation) that the ardent Pai who was executed for speaking against the queen is Vedel? Because if so then that might also rule Vedel out, meaning it would have to be  Chana who died. 

[coolsnow7]

On 8/5/2022 at 0:55 PM, AceBassMan said:

Alright, I finally read the prologue and caught up on everyone's theories in this topic, I must say that the Stormfather has every right to be a more complex character, but if there is someone impersonating him very few people here have addressed that he speaks directly into Gavilar's mind. The characters that are shown to do that:

The Stormfather (could be himself)

Shardholders (could be any one of them, with their power)

Nightblood (pretty sure its not NB)

Spren to their bonded Radiant (Gavilar wasn't radiant)

the meekers on Patji (yeah, no)

Sja Anat

I think Sja Anat is the most likely candidate if the Stormfather was being impersonated.

She is the unmade that was feared most.

She in interested in being a god in her own right.

She has been in Kholinar (no corrupted spren were seen previous to Oathbringer, but Glys had likely been corrupted there)

@coolsnow7 had said earlier that The Stormfather could possibly have been corrupted by Sja-Anat, I think that is the most likely explanation besides The Stormfather just being The Stormfather. His storming eyes and all the other powers he shows in the prologue would be hard to  imitate. Corrupted Stormfather becomes Everstorm anyone?

 

 

 

I’ve thought more about this and I think I’m right. “They must not see… they must not know…” - what? What’s he hiding? I can think of one answer: the Heralds wouldn’t want to find out that he’s down with Sja Amat. And if getting sent back to Braize would somehow make them aware of that, then yeah he should be afraid.

[teknopathetic]

15 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I’ve thought more about this and I think I’m right. “They must not see… they must not know…” - what? What’s he hiding? I can think of one answer: the Heralds wouldn’t want to find out that he’s down with Sja Amat. And if getting sent back to Braize would somehow make them aware of that, then yeah he should be afraid.

Sja-Anat thinks to herself at one point and says that  she wasn't fully conscious until the Everstom arrived. I think that makes Sja-Anat an unlikely candidate for the Stormfaker. At the same time though, how did she make Glys before the Everstorm if she was only semi-aware?  

Edited September 15, 2022 by teknopathetic