Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Lego Mistborn]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's based on quantum entanglement but isn't quite the same thing. While yes the two gems can basically be said to be the same, motion cannot be translated by quantum entanglemnet.

On Oathgates

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ccstat

(written in book: Do oathgates obey physical realm speed-of-light constraints?)

Brandon Sanderson

(written in book: Nope! Good question.)

We are playing fast and loose with causality.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

Quantum entanglement of particles cannot, we have no idea how macroscopic objects would be affected. There is also the question of whether quantum entanglement is actually the entanglement of real properties or just probabilities, but this isn't the place for that. I was not aware of that WOB, but that is good to know. 

Regardless, I think the mental link would/could have a lag, especially since the Stormfather is not himself one of the Heralds.

[therunner]

8 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Quantum entanglement of particles cannot, we have no idea how macroscopic objects would be affected. There is also the question of whether quantum entanglement is actually the entanglement of real properties or just probabilities, but this isn't the place for that. I was not aware of that WOB, but that is good to know.

Quantum entanglement is 'just' a correlation, a result of the fact that what we would naively expect to be separable system is in fact not (i.e. separated entangled particles cannot be described via a simple tensor product of their states). QFT incorporates both quantum mechanics (and hence entanglement) and special relativity and it is still a local theory (see vanishing of space-like commutators), so unless something is very wrong with it, macroscopic entangled objects would still not lead to any FTL signaling.

8 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Regardless, I think the mental link would/could have a lag, especially since the Stormfather is not himself one of the Heralds.

While Stormfather was not a party to Oathpact like the Heralds were, Tanavast was and at this time his cognitive aspect is already merged with Stormafather (based on what we know).

[Ixthos]

On 4/11/2022 at 0:18 AM, Frustration said:

Division is likely being saved for the back five, and Shallan likely doesn't hear Testiment scream because it's her spren.

Spanreeds and Oathgates are both faster than light.

I'm not so sure about spanreeds. From the Rhythm of War epigraphs, Navani speaking on the use of conjoined fabrials:

Quote

"Advanced fabrials are created using several different techniques. Conjoined fabrials require a careful division of the gemstone—and the spren inside. If performed correctly, the two halves will continue to behave as a single gemstone. Note that rubies and flamespren are traditional for this purpose— as they have proven the easiest to divide, and the quickest in response times. Other types of spren do not split as evenly, as easily, or at all."

This suggests there is some sort of latency in their response - so perhaps the movement is delayed slightly by distance, and with flamespren based conjoined fabrials the delay is only a millisecond for every kilometre. 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I'm not so sure about spanreeds. From the Rhythm of War epigraphs, Navani speaking on the use of conjoined fabrials:

This suggests there is some sort of latency in their response - so perhaps the movement is delayed slightly by distance, and with flamespren based conjoined fabrials the delay is only a millisecond for every kilometre. 

They are FTL

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rosharans already have an ansible. (reported by Kurkistan)

Spanreeds are, basically, evidence that FTL is possible in the Cosmere. It's not the only example too. (reported by Blightsong)

Footnote: Heavily paraphrased, aggregated from multiple comments.
OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

[Ixthos]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They are FTL

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rosharans already have an ansible. (reported by Kurkistan)

Spanreeds are, basically, evidence that FTL is possible in the Cosmere. It's not the only example too. (reported by Blightsong)

Footnote: Heavily paraphrased, aggregated from multiple comments.
OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

The problem is that quote is - by its own admission - heavily paraphrased and cobbled together from multiple comments. Brandon has said his quotes are of secondary cannonical status, while what is in the books is of primary cannonical status, so the quote from Navani which states flamespren produce spanreeds with the slowest delay in responses tops a paraphrased quote. While it could still be that spanreeds are faster than light (ignoring the physical issues that concept introduces if relativity is in effect as is currently understood by physicists), the books themselves imply spanreeds do have a delay between when the first part of a gemstone moves and when its companion does. Perhaps that delay is less than light speed, but there isn't enough information to conclude that definitively. It could be that Brandon was trying to say one can eventually produce FTL coms using the principles behind spanreeds but that they currently don't do that, or it could be that he was saying they really do produce FTL effects already, but that quote isn't enough to conclude it either way, and Navani's quote still has to be taken into account - the most likely scenario is the spanreeds are FTL is that flamespren delays are still FTL while still having a delay and not being instantaneous, but it also could be the paraphrasing was misleading.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

12 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Perhaps that delay is less than light speed,

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They are FTL

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rosharans already have an ansible. (reported by Kurkistan)

Spanreeds are, basically, evidence that FTL is possible in the Cosmere. It's not the only example too. (reported by Blightsong)

Footnote: Heavily paraphrased, aggregated from multiple comments.
OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Can't be, since the delay should not be measurable by current Roshar technology. For reference, light can travel along earth's equator 6 times in one sec (i think). The delay implies that spanreeds are nowhere close to the speed of light

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

The problem is that quote is - by its own admission - heavily paraphrased and cobbled together from multiple comments. Brandon has said his quotes are of secondary cannonical status, while what is in the books is of primary cannonical status, so the quote from Navani which states flamespren produce spanreeds with the slowest delay in responses tops a paraphrased quote. While it could still be that spanreeds are faster than light (ignoring the physical issues that concept introduces if relativity is in effect as is currently understood by physicists), the books themselves imply spanreeds do have a delay between when the first part of a gemstone moves and when its companion does. Perhaps that delay is less than light speed, but there isn't enough information to conclude that definitively. It could be that Brandon was trying to say one can eventually produce FTL coms using the principles behind spanreeds but that they currently don't do that, or it could be that he was saying they really do produce FTL effects already, but that quote isn't enough to conclude it either way, and Navani's quote still has to be taken into account - the most likely scenario is the spanreeds are FTL is that flamespren delays are still FTL while still having a delay and not being instantaneous, but it also could be the paraphrasing was misleading.

 

25 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 

Can't be, since the delay should not be measurable by current Roshar technology. For reference, light can travel along earth's equator 6 times in one sec (i think). The delay implies that spanreeds are nowhere close to the speed of light

That is not the case, if Rubies and Amythists produce FTL responces but the other polestones have much slower responces both statements can be true.

[Subvisual Haze]

The human shaped outline, thoughts into the mind, having a chat with the person at their moment of death.  There's a lot here to remind us of Ruin.  It makes me wonder if Gavilar might have metal piercing his body somewhere.  So my very longshot guess is that Gavilar is spiked and being influenced by Autonomy.  The visions are coming from the Stormfather proper, but since he hasn't even formed a bond or said any oaths the Stormfather is largely ignoring Gavilar and doesn't care if a 3rd party is meddling with Gavilar.  Perhaps one of the Terris people incognito in the palace was linked to Autonomy.

One theory I really liked was that Tanavast (or someone else) left behind an unintegrated cognitive shadow with the Stormfather that acts and schemes semi-independently of Stormfather proper.  With Gavilar this shadow was much more overtly manipulative to achieve their goals (something to do with reforming the Oathpact).  Realizing their mistakes, they took a much more distant and nudging approach with Dalinar.  Whispering clues for the oaths ("Unite them", "A hypocrite is someone...", "Which step is the most important?") and presenting themselves in visions as a wise old encouraging Nohadon.  This does call into question why the Stormfather picked Dalinar as a successor despite the entity stating they didn't plan to work further with Gavilar's family.  Perhaps the Stormfather proper is the one who picks the vision recipients and the shadow makes due with what is available?    Or perhaps the shadow was being sneaky knowing that an Unmade could be listening in at the moment of death.

[+robardin]

20 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The human shaped outline, thoughts into the mind, having a chat with the person at their moment of death.  There's a lot here to remind us of Ruin.  It makes me wonder if Gavilar might have metal piercing his body somewhere.  So my very longshot guess is that Gavilar is spiked and being influenced by Autonomy.  The visions are coming from the Stormfather proper, but since he hasn't even formed a bond or said any oaths the Stormfather is largely ignoring Gavilar and doesn't care if a 3rd party is meddling with Gavilar.  Perhaps one of the Terris people incognito in the palace was linked to Autonomy.

One theory I really liked was that Tanavast (or someone else) left behind an unintegrated cognitive shadow with the Stormfather that acts and schemes semi-independently of Stormfather proper.  With Gavilar this shadow was much more overtly manipulative to achieve their goals (something to do with reforming the Oathpact).  Realizing their mistakes, they took a much more distant and nudging approach with Dalinar.  Whispering clues for the oaths ("Unite them", "A hypocrite is someone...", "Which step is the most important?") and presenting themselves in visions as a wise old encouraging Nohadon.  This does call into question why the Stormfather picked Dalinar as a successor despite the entity stating they didn't plan to work further with Gavilar's family.  Perhaps the Stormfather proper is the one who picks the vision recipients and the shadow makes due with what is available?    Or perhaps the shadow was being sneaky knowing that an Unmade could be listening in at the moment of death.

Isn't the easiest answer to this question, "it wasn't the Stormfather who said that to Gavilar?"

Also, there is no Shard of Ruin by the time Gavilar is having these visions - Harmony double-Ascended several hundred years prior to TWoK.

Tanavast (the Vessel) leaving behind a separate CR from what attached to the SF, that seems very weird to me (who leaves two shadows?). And we've seen Vessels die and give up their Shards already, they... Don't leave ghosts, unless of the Kelsier variety (i.e., had Ati refused to go Beyond in Secret History), and even then Ghost Kel is not someone that can "materialize" in the Physical Realm.

There's no Shardic power left to a Ghost Vessel, they've given up the Power, however they can refuse to go Beyond by virtue of their spirit having been "expanded" from having once Ascended (except Kelsier appears to be uniquely nuts to do this).

Well, they can refuse except for Rayse, I suppose, who got Nightblooded into oblivion (Go To Beyond - Go Directly To Beyond - Do Not Pass Shadesmar, Do Not Collect $200).

Autonomy, now, that is a possible lead for who's interfering/masquerading.

Edited April 13, 2022 by robardin

[RedBlue]

On 12/04/2022 at 6:25 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

This does call into question why the Stormfather picked Dalinar as a successor despite the entity stating they didn't plan to work further with Gavilar's family.  Perhaps the Stormfather proper is the one who picks the vision recipients and the shadow makes due with what is available?    Or perhaps the shadow was being sneaky knowing that an Unmade could be listening in at the moment of death.

I think what’s going on here is that the Stormfather has limited options. He has instructions from Honor that he has to carry out, and if it happens that Dalinar is uniquely well placed to combat Odium and the Fused, then the Stormfather’s hand is forced. I think that’s how he ended up showing the visions to Dalinar, but without the intention to form a bond.

[Lego Mistborn]

How do we know the Stormfather trusts Dalinar, even is RoW, also, it really seems like he is making one of those idle threats, like you might say, "I will never talk to you again," when you are angry at someone, even though you obviously will.

[StanLemon]

What if by quickest response time, Navani meant the quickest to connect to the paired spanreed after the gem has been turned rather than the actual speed of movement

[Subvisual Haze]

There could also be more than one role that Stormfather is choosing for.  Showing the visions is something Honor required.  Trying to reforge the Oathpact and make new Heralds isn't really specifically mentioned in any of Honor's visions.  

Personally I think whoever was behind the plot to make a new Herald (whether Stormfather proper, Tanavast's cognitive shadow, or Ishar) chose Kaladin as the new candidate for that role.  It is unusual that Stormfather was dream-talking with Kaladin all the way back in tWoK and has shown a lot of attention to him ever since.  The first time they spoke the Stormfather even opened by telling Kaladin that the Oathpact was broken.  I almost wonder if the Stormfather was manipulating Kaladin in WoR, playing up the extent that Syl was truly "dead" to speed up his personal growth.

Regardless of who set the wheels spinning, fate does seem to have conspired for Kaladin to be in close proximity of Ishar who has expressed brief lucid interest in resetting the Oathpact.

[Kvothe the Bloodless]

Ok but can we agree that resetting the original Oathpact may not be the greatest idea? Yes it worked the way it was intended, but eventually it broke all the Heralds and the only reason humans survived for so long was because Taln's resistance to pain and suffering was so high. So what I'm saying is that perhaps a "new" Oathpact is needed, one that does not require returning to Braize after each Desolation, but rather unites singer and human against Odium.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

Ok but can we agree that resetting the original Oathpact may not be the greatest idea? Yes it worked the way it was intended, but eventually it broke all the Heralds and the only reason humans survived for so long was because Taln's resistance to pain and suffering was so high. So what I'm saying is that perhaps a "new" Oathpact is needed, one that does not require returning to Braize after each Desolation, but rather unites singer and human against Odium.

Yeah, it's a terrible idea if it's similar to how it currently works. 

I was thinking Dalinar might be able to improve it if he more permanently ascends to hold all of Honor and becomes a Herald. He as a Herald could make deal with Honor (Himself) to seal Odium on Braize. 

The Oathpact is between Honor and the Heralds, yet it seals the Fused who didn't agree to it.

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/160/#e2898

So you can trap things against their will. My idea was with Honor (Dalinar) agreeing to stay on Braize it could upgrade the Oathpact to seal a fellow Shard vessel. 

Dalinar and Taravangian stuck on Braize together indefinitely would be a fitting end to the front 5 IMO.   

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I was thinking Dalinar might be able to improve it if he more permanently ascends to hold all of Honor and becomes a Herald. He as a Herald could make deal with Honor (Himself) to seal Odium on Braize.

It's not Odium that is bound but the Fused, Odium is bound by a separate act of Honor.

[teknopathetic]

 I get the impression that the heralds didn't fully realize what would happen to them in Braize, but now that we know, I don't think the Oaths would allow sending someone there in order to save the planet. Sending someone to get tortured in order to save the planet is not very "journey before destination". Even if someone volunteers, it still might not be ethical to let them agree to something so horrid.  

Edited April 20, 2022 by teknopathetic

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

 I get the impression that the heralds didn't fully realize what would happen to them in Braize, but now that we know, I don't think the Oaths would allow sending someone there in order to save the planet. Sending someone to get tortured in order to save the planet is not very "journey before destination". Even if someone volunteers, it still might not be ethical to let them agree to something so horrid.  

The oaths can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Sacrificing yourself for the good of others is very life before death, from a Stoneward's point of view.

[teknopathetic]

14 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The oaths can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Sacrificing yourself for the good of others is very life before death, from a Stoneward's point of view.

But is it "eternal torture before death"? 

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

 I get the impression that the heralds didn't fully realize what would happen to them in Braize, but now that we know, I don't think the Oaths would allow sending someone there in order to save the planet. Sending someone to get tortured in order to save the planet is not very "journey before destination". Even if someone volunteers, it still might not be ethical to let them agree to something so horrid.  

I don't think a single order would have a problem with it.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

But is it "eternal torture before death"? 

Yes. Have you seen Taln? The Stonewards take after him. The first oath is super vague, and is compatible with most worldviews.

[teknopathetic]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Yes. Have you seen Taln? The Stonewards take after him. The first oath is super vague, and is compatible with most worldviews.

It is not so much the people being sent to Braize, but the new maker of the Oathpact. Do you see Dalinar being cool with doing that to ten people? Or Navani? I think it would go against what they consider moral even if they had 10ish volunteers. Take meidcal ethics. Just because people volunteer for something does not make the act moral. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by teknopathetic

[NameIess]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

It is not so much the people being sent to Braize, but the new maker of the Oathpact. Do you see Dalinar being cool with doing that to ten people? Or Navani? I think it would go against what they consider moral even if they had 10ish volunteers. 

Yes, I see Dalinar being okay with it. He would allow them to sacrifice themselves, and probably volunteer himself as well.

[+Child of Hodor]

15 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

It is not so much the people being sent to Braize, but the new maker of the Oathpact. Do you see Dalinar being cool with doing that to ten people? Or Navani? I think it would go against what they consider moral even if they had 10ish volunteers. Take meidcal ethics. Just because people volunteer for something does not make the act moral. 

That's why I'm thinking Dalinar sends himself, as a vessel of a Shard, as the sacrifice to keep Odium in instead of the Fused.  I think the Fused will be dealt with another way, anti-light, they switch sides like Leshwi or otherwise stop fighting and choose to pass Beyond. 

Just Dalinar and Taravangian hanging out on Braize endlessly debating with each other. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Just Dalinar and Taravangian hanging out on Braize endlessly debating with each other. 

Dalinar: Killing four people when we know one of them is innocent is just wrong, taravangian!

Tara: We can't just let 3 criminals go! Anyway we try some innocent people will die in a justice system! That's just how things work

Dalinar: Ah but you forget, the death of an innocent person then happens due to a lack of knowledge, it wasn't intentional.

Tara: So the fact that it was an accident excuses it!?

Dalinar: No but the blame then lies on the investigators-

Tara: You know what, we have been arguing for 300 years now, i really should try to start to escape this oathpact. I have a lot of plans for the cosmere

Dalinar: Fine!...

Tara: (looks at dalinar judgingly)

Dalinar: (looks at Tara, judging him harder)

Tara: ...

Tara: The main point here was-

Narrator: And Roshar was safe from odium for eternity.