Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Iarwainiel I]

(I'm always wrong when I theorize, but here goes...)

I'm wondering if the StormFaker isn't an avatar of Bavadin/Autonomy?

And when it says it's leaving the Kholin family behind, that its next target was Ishar? I thought about Bavadin/avatars when I read RoW, because Ishar could open a perpendicularity.

And maybe when Rayse/Odium said (in Oathbringer) "We killed you" about Honor and his splintered Shard, that the "We" wasn't Odium and Cultivation (though we know she was there), but Odium and Autonomy/Autonomy's avatar?

As the OP said, it's a shambles for sure.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Iarwainiel I

[Humble_Knight]

So I am sure that the stormfather is acting weird. He seems more empathetic at times and more calculating. His plans also seem to change, though that may just be a reaction to needing to stop a desolation rather than preventing one.

If I had to pick a stormfaker, I will go with a Tanavast shadow. First, the characterization fits him best. Driven to protect Roshar, empathetic to Gavilar's struggles even when he is disappointed and frustrated, conniving and willing to lie. I don't think its Cultivation or Odium, because when he shows Gavilar the intent it screams Honor. The overlap of the deathrattle and the warning seems bigger than Ishar and too far from what the stormfather is wont to do. Tanavast fits all these criteria, those I can see a world where the stormfather is just acting weird.

I really like Tanavast being the manipulator because I think he has a really great reason to be finding a new Herald. Taln asked him to. In a deathrattle, Taln begs the almighty to end his suffering, and the only way for Tanavast to do that without splintering himself is for him to find a replacement. I like this because then Gavilar guessed the right herald for the wrong reason, which feels very Gavilar to me.

As for the rest of the chapter, here are some of my thoughts

-I find it weird that Nale, who says he is the law, doesn't just put Gavilar down, if he thinks it should be done. I think this strongly suggests that Nale is not actually a fifth oath radiant or has broken his later oaths. Thought this for awhile, because he is far too desperate to find even the flimsiest justification for his action to be someone who is ultimately responsible for them, and this book will likely be about character coming to term with the consequences of their actions, between Szeth, Dalinar and Shallan.

-I think this makes Chana Davar more likely than not, but even if it is not, I think Chana is the herald who died. We know where 7 of the heralds are just from the text, leaving Chana, Vedel and Pali. Pali has been WoB'd to be in Kharbranth, though that might be a good thing to verify at the next Q&A. That leaves Chana and Vedel, and Chana is mentioned in this chapter. I think Liss is Vedel, the description fits and I think an Assassin is a cool reversal of a healer.

-Did Thaidakar's appearance add any new information? He seemed to show up, ask Gavilar to do something we see the Ghostbloods want done in RoW, and then get disappointed in Gavilar. As much as a seon in a trenchcoat is hilarious, I'm not sure it added much value beyond confirming that Gavilar was playing all sides.

[teknopathetic]

I kind of assumed Axendwith was Kelsier’s doing. We have a terriswoman moving forward a desolation, so that seems like a likely explanation.
 

Seems odd to think a terriswoman just happens to be on Roshar and just happens to be meddling in world events separately from Kelsier when Kelsier says his team has been meddling in desolations.  

Edited April 5, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Jerfier]

On 31.03.2022 at 0:12 AM, PurpurPhönix said:

So if it's not the Stormfather, then how did Gavilar get the visions? Did someone else have access to them?

he is could be Ishar. A bondsmith can show the visions. In RoW Dalinar showed a vision to Kaladin.

[+Child of Hodor]

12 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I kind of assumed Axendwith was Kelsier’s doing. We have a terriswoman moving forward a desolation, so that seems like a likely explanation.
 

Seems odd to think a terriswoman just happens to be on Roshar and just happens to be meddling in world events separately from Kelsier when Kelsier says his team has been meddling in desolations.  

Has to be Kelsier. It would be a twist for no reason if the Terriswoman wasn't associated with Kelsier's group. 

******

On the Stormfather's behavior I keep going back and forth, but I'm now leaning toward it's the Stormfather, but we're seeing more of the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast come out. 

Quote

 Stormfather said. I feel...you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find.

“You said that you were charged with this task,” Gavilar said. “By Honor. Finding someone to show the visions, to prevent calamity. You didn’t decide anything. You were instructed to do all of this.”

That is true. I do not speak in human ways.

Stormfather was a separate Spren before Tanavast, the Vessel for Honor, died. Tanavast altered the Stormfather, made the Visions, commanded Stormfather to show the Visions and to Bondsmith candidates (as far as we know). Then Tanavast died and his Cognitive Shadow (mind ghost) was absorbed by the Stormfather. The Stormfather being a Cognitive Realm entity the transfer of Tanavast's cognitive shadow didn't go as well as it would if he was "stapled" to something in the Physical realm like Kelsier seems to have been and like the Fused and Heralds are. 

All that is to say at least some of Tanavast is in there somewhere, but to what extent we don't know. When Stormfather says he "decided" and later confirms that he was commanded, both are true because he is now both the ghost of the guy who decided to give the command and the spren who received the command. 

Some WoBs to support all that:

Brandon says Stormfather reminds Cultivation of someone she knew and she feels the same way about Stormfather as she did this certain someone. Assuming he means Tanavast, this is saying Stormfather and Tanavast are similar in Cultivation's eyes. Support for some of Tanavast lingering in there. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/216/#e6436

Stormfather "absorbed", "is basically" Honor's cognitive shadow. I interpret that to mean Tanavast's CS as he's the one that died, the Shard Honor was only splintered (and still lives in the hearts of men anyways  ) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/73/#e4268

[Trutharchivist]

13 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Has to be Kelsier. It would be a twist for no reason if the Terriswoman wasn't associated with Kelsier's group. 

I'm not completely sure. I believe she mentioned to Ulim that there was another "specialist" like her around the palace that turned Gavilar against her. I assumed (perhaps wrongfully) that she meant another Feruchemist, which will mean that there is a Feruchemist not working for Kelsier either way.

[AquaRegia]

The other feruchemist would be Gereh:  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Gereh

@Isilel well said.  I agree with all your thoughts and opinions, most especially the observation that

On 4/4/2022 at 0:58 PM, Isilel said:

Honor tried to keep the secret of humans being invaders from the Radiants and helped them "to reconcile" this truth with their mission statement when it got rediscovered, which already skirts dangerously close to lying, so... 

As someone pointed out earlier, Honor is the Shard of Oaths, not the Shard of Always Telling the Truth.

Edited April 6, 2022 by AquaRegia

[+mdross81]

22 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I kind of assumed Axendwith was Kelsier’s doing. We have a terriswoman moving forward a desolation, so that seems like a likely explanation.
 

Seems odd to think a terriswoman just happens to be on Roshar and just happens to be meddling in world events separately from Kelsier when Kelsier says his team has been meddling in desolations.  

I think this is right and that Axindweth/Ulim’s scheming is what Kelsier is referring to when he mentions the things they’ve put into motion in this passage:

Quote

Deliver him to my agents, then we’ll give you what you said that you wanted: a return of the ancient days you’ve hungered for. A chance for the powers to come back.”

“I’ve grown beyond that,” Gavilar said.

“You can’t ‘grow beyond’ the tide, Gavilar,” Thaidakar replied. “You swim with it or get swept away. The things we’ve started are in motion. And to be honest, I don’t know that we did that much. I think that tide was coming whatever we did.”

 

[TruthwatcherDan]

Hi Fellow Radiants!

First time ever posting here, but long time Sanderson-Cosmere fan. My thoughts on some of the key themes from 'To Live':

Is this storm our father?

I'm team sus-father on this one; there are too many inconsistencies in the behaviour and appearance of the sus-father from what we have seen to date:

1. The physical presentation as (a) a "shimmer as he sometimes did" and (b) "a ripping in the air... vaguely in the shape of a person"; not something we have seen before. 
2. The Stormfather has to be in close proximity to people to send them visions, i.e., the Highstorm needs to be in the same region as the receiver of the vision. Between Eshani's viewpoint and Gavilar dying outside there's no evidence to suggest that there is a Highstorm.
3. Similar to the above, the Stormfather isn't omni-present nor can he travel places by choice, he can only see where the Highstorm is at any given time. If there was no Highstorm in Kholinar, he couldn't have been at the signing of the treaty.
4. "I cannot go inside, just as I cannot infuse spheres indoors. When a piece splits off, it is no longer me" - The Stormfather [Chapter 71, Rhythm of War]; again, by this logic the Stormfather cannot go into closed spaces like buildings. (with acknowledgement this quote refers to Uruthuru when the Sibling was corrupted, but the logic of spheres having to be outside to be infused anywhere on Roshar is consistent...)
5. Sus-Father feeling the death of a Herald... The Heralds feel each others death because of the Connection created to them by the Oathpact. (with acknowledgement this is speculative, based on chapter 47 RoW we see Dalinar views the Oathpact faintly as white lines; it's a logical deduction).

If the Stormfather has been lying or holding back on his abilities for so long to what motivation, it's a lot of effort for very little pay off... and it kind of feels akin to the old trope "they woke up and it was all a dream..." 

It's possible the real Stormfather was talking to Gavilar as he died through the Spiritual Realm. Maybe.

If he's not our father, then who?

Here, I'm not so sure. I do think Ishar fits the brief if he has his Honor Blade at this point given his abilities in RoW and his power of Connection. Other good candidates: A herald with their blade and the power of Lightweaving (more likely Pailiah than Shallash), or The Everstormfather (not likely, but it's a cute idea, and sus-father does mention everyone needing their opposition). 

Who else has our father-not-father been whispering to?

I also think Aesudan with her mysterious past is one to watch out for here. In the OB interlude with Pai we learn that Aesudan believes that the Stormfather is unhappy with her... is this the manic ramblings of a woman under the influence of the unmade or has father been talking to even more people than we suspect? And is the sus-father somehow involved in her obtaining Yelig-nar's gemstone?

If he's not my father, then is Chanarach my mother?

This is a cool theory, if a little to obvious. I have thoughts: 

1. It makes sense from a timeline perspective, tick!
2. It makes sense from a Shallans truth and oaths perspective, tick!
3. I've always wondered why when Shallan first noticed the Cryptics n Kharbranth they were heard asking "what are you?"... it makes sense as to why they would be curious about the child of a cognative shadow and why Shallan bonded a spren at such a young age (which was before the trauma of killing her mother, and her father going mad); it makes more sense than her being a Kendra (don't come for me, I know people want that theory to die).
4. However, that also makes Helaren, Balat, Wikim, and Jushu children of a cognative shadow and by the logic above they should also be curious to the cryptics and potential radiants. 

Is this a treaty signing or a Herald reunion?

I've shipped this theory for a while now, that 9 of the Heralds were at Kholinar palace that day... we have confirmation Kalak, Jezrien, Nale and Shallash were present; now we have some logical hint that Battar may have been present too! If Taravagian was there that night, surely he would have brought Dova. 

This leads to an interesting theory as to an alternative to the mother-herald theory... given Liss (Vedel?) was at the treaty, could she have had another contract to assassinate someone else on top of her contract with Jasnah? Or just killed Battar for working with the Diagram? If so, this could be the death of the herald the Sus-father (Ishar) feels... I'll be rereading to keep an out out for other Herald suspects on this one!

It does feel very Brandon to feint us with mother-herald, leaving the fandom to speculate for years, then prove us all wrong!

Ba-Ado-MiShallan?

I haven't seen many theories as to her location, but I will be keeping eyes open for her on my next reread... I suspect she was once a Bondsmith that was unmade, and used Connection to connect with the Parshendi. But that's an aside. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on where she is? 

I have a working theory (a very, very tenuous one...) she isn't trapped in a gem stone... but rather her soul is in one of our favourite hero's, Shallan Davar! Points for to consider: 

1. Nale and Kalak were present when BAM was trapped; Dalinar see's a baby in his visions when he uses Connection on Nale. (It's a loose connection I know!)
2. Where is Shallan at the end of RoW? With Kalak, who know's where BAM is.
3. What are the Ghostbloods looking for...? Imagine if she was right in front of them all along.
4. Shallan's family were partially driven mad by the presence of an unmade... who BAM-Shallan.
5. Shallan bonding a Cryptic so young,
6. As mentioned earlier Cryptics asking "what are you"
7. Shallan has so many moments connecting with the Unmade, and seems to understand them intimately.
8. The Hoid-Shallan first meeting, it was like he already knew her, but could it have been BAM he recognised?
9. Shallan is the only female Davar child, it could pass through females on her mothers side; if so Nale would know about this and would explain the Davar-Sky Breakers connection.

Speculation, Sanderson is feinting Herald-Mother to cover for Ba-Ado-MiShallan. Shallan embraces and Channels Bao-Ado-Mishram's power, Radiant fades, Shallan becomes a candidate to face Todium (and potentially other Shards in the Cosmere... if Kelsier gets his way...)

Ba-Ado-Mishram has a huge role to play what ever way it goes as "the one who could rival Him" according to the Sus-father!

Thanks for reading my rant! 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:34 PM, Child of Hodor said:

 Ishar is the “founder of the Oathpact” he might be special in his relation to other Jeralds and can sense it. 

None of the eight knew whether Kalak had survived in the Prelude or not, though, including Ishar.

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

The physical presentation as (a) a "shimmer as he sometimes did" and (b) "a ripping in the air... vaguely in the shape of a person"; not something we have seen before. 

We have. (Sometimes human-sized, sometimes not.)

Quote

He searched the sky and discovered a ripple in the air, like heat rising from distant stone. A shimmer the size of a building.

Quote

Dalinar turned to the side, to where he glimpsed the air shimmering. The Stormfather.

Quote

The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar—a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar, yet extending into infinity.

 

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

The Stormfather has to be in close proximity to people to send them visions, i.e., the Highstorm needs to be in the same region as the receiver of the vision. Between Eshani's viewpoint and Gavilar dying outside there's no evidence to suggest that there is a Highstorm.

He sends Dalinar visions outside the storm in Oathbringer (and later Jasnah and Navani). Book opens with him having a vision replayed, but there hadn't yet been any highstorms since the end of Words of Radiance, so it was definitely outside a storm.

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

Similar to the above, the Stormfather isn't omni-present nor can he travel places by choice, he can only see where the Highstorm is at any given time. If there was no Highstorm in Kholinar, he couldn't have been at the signing of the treaty.

WoB is that he is somewhat omnipresent, due to absorbing Tanavast's Shadow.

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

by this logic the Stormfather cannot go into closed spaces like buildings

Normally he can't, but in Rhythm of War, we know he's able to see near where Dalinar is, because he recognizes the spren from Ishar's experiments. So being able to be where Gavilar is is consistent.

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

The Heralds feel each others death because of the Connection created to them by the Oathpact.

They don't. In the Prelude, Kalak does not know whether any of them survived or not until Jezrien explains, and Jezrien mentioned that none of them knew whether Kalak was alive or not. So it seems that outside the special case of when Jezrien got torn out of the Oathpact, Heralds cannot tell when another Herald dies.

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

However, that also makes Helaren, Balat, Wikim, and Jushu children of a cognative shadow and by the logic above they should also be curious to the cryptics and potential radiants. 

Yeah, this has always been a weird part of the theory for me – if, as proposed, they bonded her because of her mother, what about her siblings? The other things do seem to line up, though, and the mention of Chana's hair in the prologue feels so out of place to me that foreshadowing is the only conclusion I can come to about it. (Shallan and her mother are the only women in the entirety of the first two books with pure red hair, and we know she was seen in one of those books.) So my current opinion is that Chana is probably her mom, but that's probably not an intentional deciding factor on the part of the Cryptics, though it's possible it could be a sweetener.

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

now we have some logical hint that Battar may have been present too! If Taravagian was there that night, surely he would have brought Dova. 

This leads to an interesting theory as to an alternative to the mother-herald theory... given Liss (Vedel?) was at the treaty, could she have had another contract to assassinate someone else on top of her contract with Jasnah? Or just killed Battar for working with the Diagram? If so, this could be the death of the herald the Sus-father (Ishar) feels... I'll be rereading to keep an out out for other Herald suspects on this one!

I don't think the timeline works out for it to be because of the Diagram, because Taravangian only visited the Nightwatcher after Gavilar talked about the visions, but it's possible that the reason she became part of the Diagram was because she died, then broke and knew what was coming... It's not clear when she joined up, but Taravangian's phrasing to me implies it was recent.

Quote

“Tell Dova to continue the work,” he said. He had not anticipated that their covenant would attract the loyalty of an ardent, of all things. The Diagram, and its members, knew no boundaries. Dova had discovered their work on her own, and they’d needed to either induct her or assassinate her.

She also may have known the Desolation was coming shortly after becoming part of things, but we don't know whether this is truth, or is a lie to hide the visions and Death Rattles from Dalinar.

Quote

“There’s a woman at Kharbranth,” he said. “She goes by the name Dova, but we think she is Battah’Elin. A Herald. She told us the Desolation was approaching.”

I'll have to keep an eye out as well, to see whether that theory might have more behind it...

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on where she is? 

For meta reasons, I'm guessing Shinovar, because it pulls the Ishar, cleansing, and BAM plotlines together. Also, Lasting Integrity is right by Tukar, and Tukari attempted to kidnap Notum, meaning that Shallan and Adolin have reason to get involved with his plotline, and Brandon does like to tie multiple things together.

Alternatively, it might be in Iri, since the singers in the False Desolation were pushing towards Feverstone Keep and that is apparently near Rall Elorim, but I'm not expecting us to see much of that nation until Book 6 since Lift grew up there.

8 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

she isn't trapped in a gem stone

Implication is that she's in a gem, but I suppose we don't know with certainty.

9 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

Shallan bonding a Cryptic so young,

Tien was also bonded by a Cryptic pretty young.

9 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

Ba-Ado-Mishram has a huge role to play what ever way it goes as "the one who could rival Him" according to the Sus-father!

Definitely. Not sure exactly where she's going, but it's gonna be big.

[TruthwatcherDan]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

None of the eight knew whether Kalak had survived in the Prelude or not, though, including Ishar.

14 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

I always thought that feeling the death of a fellow Herald was the distinction between being sent back to Braize (Herald-Connection still in tact; not felt) vs. true death (Herald-Connection broken; felt) but this new prologue casts doubt on that.

What we also don't know is if the Sus-father felt the death, or witnessed the death; his reaction seems to be a felt response but it's possible that if he is omni-present it was a witnessed response. There's so much ambiguity around the Stormfather/Sus-father. 

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We have. (Sometimes human-sized, sometimes not.)

Very good references! Now I'm being swayed to team Stormfather in this prologue... 

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He sends Dalinar visions outside the storm in Oathbringer (and later Jasnah and Navani). Book opens with him having a vision replayed, but there hadn't yet been any highstorms since the end of Words of Radiance, so it was definitely outside a storm.

My interpretation on this one is his Nahel Bond and Connection allows for him to send the visions to Dalinar, and by proximity Jasnah and Navani.

In Oathbringer, the Stormfather could only bring Fen and Yanagawn into the visions during a Highstorm in their respective cities... then there is this:

Quote

"During a storm, I can approach anyone I choose, the Stormfather said. But you do not have to be in a storm, so you can join a vision in which I have placed someone else, even if you are distant" - OB 406-407.

The Stormfather could by lying but to what motive... 

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

For meta reasons, I'm guessing Shinovar, because it pulls the Ishar, cleansing, and BAM plotlines together. Also, Lasting Integrity is right by Tukar, and Tukari attempted to kidnap Notum, meaning that Shallan and Adolin have reason to get involved with his plotline, and Brandon does like to tie multiple things together.

This feels like another Battle of Theylen Field moment in the making, and honestly, I'm here for it! 

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Tien was also bonded by a Cryptic pretty young.

15 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

I FORGOT ABOUT TIEN! Rest in peace our beautiful sad stone collector boy. Roshar was too small to hold his giant heart. 

NB: I love this community, and finding these forums has been such a joy! I have no one to talk to about how important these books are to me, so it's so nice to finally be nerding out and connecting with like-minded people <3

[LewsTherinTelescope]

43 minutes ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

My interpretation on this one is his Nahel Bond and Connection allows for him to send the visions to Dalinar, and by proximity Jasnah and Navani.

Good point.

43 minutes ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

The Stormfather could by lying but to what motive... 

In that case, I think it's more likely he's lying about Gavilar having no bond, rather than lying about the ability to bring people into visions.

45 minutes ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

I FORGOT ABOUT TIEN! Rest in peace our beautiful sad stone collector boy. Roshar was too small to hold his giant heart. 

45 minutes ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

NB: I love this community, and finding these forums has been such a joy! I have no one to talk to about how important these books are to me, so it's so nice to finally be nerding out and connecting with like-minded people <3

Yeah, the Shard is awesome! I may be biased

[Wandering Shade]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, the Shard is awesome! I may be biased

Biased? Never.

[ElMonoEstupendo]

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

None of the eight knew whether Kalak had survived in the Prelude or not, though, including Ishar.

That's actually a really good point. Jezrien outright says they didn't know whether Kalak survived, and Kalak doesn't know whether they did, and all of them would have had their Honorblades (including Ishar) at the time, so examining the Connections presumably wouldn't help.

Which means 8 of them made the decision at Aharietiam without knowing whether Kalak was on Braize or not. Which seems nuts. Gambling on Taln not breaking seems like a good choice, but as far as they knew the Fused could be back in a few short years. I don't see a way of reconciling that...

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

.

Which means 8 of them made the decision at Aharietiam without knowing whether Kalak was on Braize or not. Which seems nuts. Gambling on Taln not breaking seems like a good choice, but as far as they knew the Fused could be back in a few short years. I don't see a way of reconciling that...

Early in RioW, Leshwi mentioned that the Heralds modified the Oathpact so that it relied on one Herald instead of all of them. 

When Nale and Dalinar fight, Dalinar sees a bunch of weak thin lines coming from Nale  and  one much larger line extending out, probably to Taln. 

I think they Heralds made it so the Fused would have to break Taln, the others don’t matter as much. 
They couldn’t get out of the Oathpact entirely, but they made Taln the “key”. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think they Heralds made it so the Fused would have to break Taln, the others don’t matter as much. 
They couldn’t get out of the Oathpact entirely, but they made Taln the “key”. 

I'm not sure this would fit with the Chanarach theory though. It seems to me that each Herald could still be broken on Braize (otherwise a Herald dying during the prologue wouldn't matter), meaning that abandoning Taln without knowing about Kalak was incredibly risky.

[Nef]

The major difference between Taln's death in the prologue of WoK and the death of Jezrien in OB is that Jezrien's soul was trapped in gem of the special dagger, this could explain why the Heralds could feel the death of Jezrien and not Taln.

If Chanarach's soul was also trapped (according to the theory of her soul being in the box), it could explain why "StormFather" could feel her death.

 

[Vin Solunu]

I found a hole in the Chanarach theory. On the map of Roshar, it says that Shallan killed her mother before the feast and not during the feast. I don't know how accurate that map is, but Brandon and his team are meticulous about timelines, so I don't think Shallan killed her mother during the feast.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, ShyGuy1729 said:

I found a hole in the Chanarach theory. On the map of Roshar, it says that Shallan killed her mother before the feast and not during the feast. I don't know how accurate that map is, but Brandon and his team are meticulous about timelines, so I don't think Shallan killed her mother during the feast.

That's a fanmade timeline based on the indicators we get during the books, which can be pretty vague. If you look at the data collected to make it, there's actually about a five-month period that it's speculated to fall within, with the feast being inside that range.

[TruthwatcherDan]

Opinions please!

I wonder if the choice of Honorblades was specific in the prologue… I.e., Jezrien and Chanarach… Jezerien’s blade is with Vyre and we don’t know who’s blade Chanarach is with but perhaps this is suggesting who our champions will be? We haven’t seen the surge of division on screen yet, but I bet it’s going to make for excellent reading!

Gavilar wanting “to have seen her in battle” may be equally foreshadowing us seeing Chanarach in battle as is the mention of “flaming red hair”. 
 

It’s also curious that Shallan never hears her Shardblade (Testament?) scream when she held it… could she actually have an Honorblade as well, or is this a simple overlook on Sandersons part. Knowing the Shin have already given up Jezrien and Ishars blades, it’s not hard to imagine they may have given up or lost some of the others, especially with an unmade in the picture.

Edited April 10, 2022 by TruthwatcherDan
More specific context given.

[alder24]

I like this discussion about SF vs SF which of course I've missed in prolog. I have to shamefully admit that Nightblood's appearance in WoR was a "cool easter egg" to me rather than mind breaking revealence - but I've learned since then thanks to you!

I'm more on the Stormfather side, it makes more sense to me, and his behavior is not that different from normal. Sprens can change. He still didn't want to share his knowledge, he didn't want to be commanded, shimmering did happen with Dalinnar as well. And did he really lied to Gavilar or did Gavillar assumed too much due to lack of answers? Even at the very beginning of the prolog SF says "That depends upon your definition of lies." 

1. SF first says about finding replacement for heralds - radiants could be that replacement, they unite, guide, lead and fight for humans like heralds before. Heralds however failed, broke their oaths, dooming Roshar. Or he truly wants to replace herald, because then KR would not be necessary and Sprens would not have to risk to be killed again. No matter what it is, it don't have to be a lie.
2. Talking about price of immortality may be just because Gavilar is do fixated on this - farfetched, maybe Stormfather have some plans to make new herald? Why can't he have plans on his own? Even if it's just a talk it's not a lie.
3. Gavilar thinks that there is only one place for new herald - because Stormfather hinted this but not said it streight - however Gavilar did not even knows the truth about Heralds, and thinks they all on Braize and Taln is the one acting against Oathpact. Clearly it is the wrong assumption.
4. Stormfather acceptance of Voidbringer's return - well he new it from the beginning, that's what the visions are for, that's what the visions says. He knows it is unavoidable
5. "You will need someone to fight, should you take the position I am offering you." - that's the tricky one, it could be true to bondsmith mission, but its weird like he will need enemy to shape him. Debatable
6. “Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.” 
     "So close. And so far." 
It is close to the Words, but it's not words that matters but the intention behind it. This were Gavilar's first words with strong and true intention behind them. All of the previous ones were just words without intention. But it was still wrong intention, because it was selfish. So close and so far 
7. “Do you regret choosing me, Stormfather?”
The two answers given by SF were not contradictory. 
8. "I feel...you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find" 
"once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns."
Well this is the part that really gives Stormfaker vibes. He kind of openly says about becoming a Herald and that he decided to find Gavilar. But maybe after Recreance SF realise that he will not want to depend on radients like Honor wanted and risk lives of all of the Sprens once more and he'd made another plans, to replace Taln with new herald. It is still in character with Stormfather we know, in all of this prolog there was never even a word about bonding SF so it could be his own plan, not willing to trust humans like Honor wanted. His shock to Gavilar's statement about giving up immediately confirms this and stays true to SF character. But that could be just my speculations. 
9. "I see my miscalculation. Your entire religious upbringing" - SF could use religion to point Gavilar into right direcrion, help him to understand his role thanks to similarities, but it backfired terribly. Or at very lest SF could not correct Gavilar's wrong assumptions made because of religion. Speculations again. 
10. "You don’t understand, the Stormfather said. Those aren’t the words, Gavilar. [...] It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong." - once more I will say, words are not imporntant, intention makes the Words. 
11. Herald's death - we know heralds don't feel eachothers regular death - prelude. Even in the heat of the battle to all 9 of them completely miss death of Taln and don't feel that Kalak didn't die is too much, therefore Stormfaker could not be Ishar even if I like how timlines points to it and he could have abilities to do it. But why couldn't Stormfather feel it? After all he is the largest remain of Honor, he would definitely be connected to Oathpact and to Heralds in some way. Didn't he says to Dalinar that he feels them but don't see them (not sure)? But real Stormfather could felt this and reacted this way. If he planed to replace Taln then with herald's death it all fails. He knows it has begun, And He will not save Sprens from bonding and dying. He failed, all that's left is to follow Honor's plan to restore KR.  
12. “You lied?”
"Oh, Gavilar. There is so little you do not know. So much you assume."
SF didn't confirm nor denied it. But what he said at the beginning of the prolog "That depends upon your definition of lies." Gavilar later said that SF told him Sprens can't lie, but we don't see SF saying that, and it could be another assumption of Gavilar.
13. "If I try again, I will do it differently."
"I will never trust your family again."
And he did it very differently with Dalinar, never said a word to him up until battle of Narrak, even tries to kill him there. He never gives up his knowledge lightly, or in some cases at all, and did not trust him, maybe still don't trust him. But it is still true to Stormfather we know, and we know he tried to send visions to different people, but he also knows that Dalinar has a potential. Sprens can change no matter how hard they denying it.

That's most of the sentences or things that I've found to be weird, close to lies or lies, I think most of them should not be consider a lie, but "That depends upon your definition of lies.". I think it is all the same Stormfather we know, not some faker. But there is a secret in him. Those talks about becoming a Herald means someting. It's a possibility that we are ignoring being too focus on finding Stormfaker. 

If it was Stormfaker I thing that Cultivation would be most promising bet. We know what her plan was and Gavilar actions might helped her - he pushed both Dalinar and Taravangian into her arms. It's not Ishar because point 11. Odium might be the one, Gavilar could establish some connection carrying light from Braize, but he would be happy with him giving up on Braize. I don't like the idea od Tanavest's CS - let's recall how Preservation was behaving on his last days - he knew there was a plan, but nothing more than that, he couldn't created new plans or do something more other than appearing to few people. Moreover SF completely missing Tanavest's CS in his "mind/space/piece of investiture" and in his conversations with Gavilar is too much a stretch. Tanavest's CS would have too much control over his shared powers too close to his death.

But in a chapter of OB when Dalinar and Navani are talking with SF about heralds inside of the vision of last desolation, SF said that "Taln finnaly broke as well" but we know it was not him, and if it was SF in this prolog then he would know that other Herald could broke - he lies to Dalinar, or it was Stormfaker?

 

Mishram is improtant to Thaidakar - he can put her in a box, transport her to him, release her and have unlimited access to investiture. Simple as that. 

About Shallan's mother is a Herald theory - I like how it was argumented, but wasn't really in favor of it. But when I've read this prolog - I'm fully on board! I will take it even one crazy step further! Radient is not only split image of her mother Chanarach but she IS her! Somehow. It's her reborn "new form", or maybe part of her spiritual web that she had to split in order to have kids, or that "soul" traped in box inside wall? We don't know how Heralds or Returned can have kids but them being close to Sprens it could work similar to creating new Sprens - which we don't know how it's done but could be something like splitting part of their own spirit and giving it to their kids/shaping it. I'm rooting for it to happen! 

But what do i know? I was the one who thought "Lord of Scars" is some weird title of Autonomy, because of the word "Avatar" right behind that name, and who else have Avatars that we know of? Autonomy of course, it must be it! Perhaps I've learned nothing after all.

Sorry for all spelling and grammar mistakes - my phone painfully wants to convert all English words to my language. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by alder24
Mishram

[Lego Mistborn]

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's a fanmade timeline based on the indicators we get during the books, which can be pretty vague. If you look at the data collected to make it, there's actually about a five-month period that it's speculated to fall within, with the feast being inside that range.

In addition, the Stormfather may have suffered "lag" when sensing the death. Even telepathic communication has to go slower than or at the speed of light.

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, TruthwatcherDan said:

Opinions please!

I wonder if the choice of Honorblades was specific in the prologue… I.e., Jezrien and Chanarach… Jezerien’s blade is with Vyre and we don’t know who’s blade Chanarach is with but perhaps this is suggesting who our champions will be? We haven’t seen the surge of division on screen yet, but I bet it’s going to make for excellent reading!

Gavilar wanting “to have seen her in battle” may be equally foreshadowing us seeing Chanarach in battle as is the mention of “flaming red hair”. 
 

It’s also curious that Shallan never hears her Shardblade (Testament?) scream when she held it… could she actually have an Honorblade as well, or is this a simple overlook on Sandersons part. Knowing the Shin have already given up Jezrien and Ishars blades, it’s not hard to imagine they may have given up or lost some of the others, especially with an unmade in the picture.

Division is likely being saved for the back five, and Shallan likely doesn't hear Testiment scream because it's her spren.

24 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

In addition, the Stormfather may have suffered "lag" when sensing the death. Even telepathic communication has to go slower than or at the speed of light.

Spanreeds and Oathgates are both faster than light.

[Lego Mistborn]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Spanreeds and Oathgates are both faster than light.

Spanreeds at least utilize quantum entanglement, which appears faster than light, but its really complicated. The oathgates may, but remember, special relativity means that it could feel like instantaneous travel, but actually take more time than that.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Spanreeds at least utilize quantum entanglement, which appears faster than light, but its really complicated. The oathgates may, but remember, special relativity means that it could feel like instantaneous travel, but actually take more time than that.

It's based on quantum entanglement but isn't quite the same thing. While yes the two gems can basically be said to be the same, motion cannot be translated by quantum entanglemnet.

On Oathgates

Spoiler

ccstat

(written in book: Do oathgates obey physical realm speed-of-light constraints?)

Brandon Sanderson

(written in book: Nope! Good question.)

We are playing fast and loose with causality.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)