LewsTherinTelescope

Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Some of my thoughts and theories:

  • Gavilar definitely makes a lot of assumptions, and the Stormfather could have used this to pull a ‘nothing I said was technically untrue’ trick. However, he does reference Gavilar becoming a Herald plainly, and ties this to Gavilar speaking the Words. There’s no doubt that the Stormfather is lying here.
  • The Stormfather has emphasised the importance of The Way of Kings, which is essentially an introductory textbook to the philosophy of the First Ideal and Bondsmithing. He’s trying to get Gavilar to bond him, but has been untruthful with Gavilar about what that will achieve. He has also told Gavilar that he (the Stormfather) is unable to lie. He seems to be setting up Gavilar to be a Bondsmith who is manipulated and controlled by the Stormfather.
  • So, what is the Stormfather’s end goal here? What was he planning on doing with Gavilar? I think the Stormfather genuinely planned to have Gavilar become a new Herald. As a Bondsmith, and with the Stormfather’s approval, Gavilar would have had the power to alter the Oathpact and insert himself into it. This is what the Stormfather was preparing him for, and the reason for the concern over what Gavilar would do once he became a Herald.
  • And why is the Stormfather lying and withholding so much information? He wants to prevent the return of the Knights Radiant. He still blames the Radiants for what happened during the Recreance, and he doesn’t want a similar calamity to happen again. He keeps all relevant information to himself, so that Gavilar can’t use it to found a new order of Knights Radiant. That’s why he needs Gavilar to think that saying the Words will turn him into a Herald. If the Stormfather guides Gavilar through the intermediary steps, Gavilar never needs to know.
  • And why would the Stormfather want a new Herald? Because the Oathpact is the solution that Honor came up with, and the Stormfather is, in large part, what is left of Honor. He doesn’t truly understand why the Oathpact can’t work in the long term. He only understands that his Heralds broke. What do you do when your Heralds break? You get new ones.

This is what I am thinking too. 
While I do think there could be conflict of thought with Tanavast's (Crazy) cognitive Shadow having merged with him, which could without a connection/bond to someone have been causing more erratic behavior and identity crisis. I do think it is the Stormfather. 
We know that he is bound to show the visions, but with Dalinar he is reluctant, and outright hostile towards the idea of bonding. 
I am not convinced The Stormfather ever told Gavilar he could become a herald, but that is what Gavilar assumed, and it is like this was the Stromfather attempting to find a way to continue the oathpact without putting spren in danger.  
We see with Dalinar that it is a begrudging acceptance and Dalinar is pushing him each step of the way. Where With Gavilar from what little we get, The Stormfather is trying to push him in a specific direction, without really understanding people, and then realizes he made a mistake, and that Gavilar didn't understand at all what was needed.  
We also know he was not yet bonded with Gavilar, or even that Gavilar could use stormlight, so the effect of better understanding we see the Stormfather go through later with Dalinar, and the return of Syl, has not happened. 

 
 

Edited by FollowYourMuse
typos
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Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Stormfaker seems like Ishar. I think he wants someone to swap with so he can avoid going back to Braize. It just seems like something Ishar would do. 

How? I dunno he’s a Bondsmith “Unchained” assuming he got his blade back. 

When this guy panics and doesn’t want “the others” to find out a herald died, recall that Ishar has been lying to Nale, Ash and Kalak about a bunch of stuff including denying that a new desolation has come.

I agree. The "voice" doesn't seem to desire anything remotely connected to what Dalinar's Stormfather wants. The Stormfather we see in WoR even seems to have given up and tries smashing the two storms together to give humans a quick death. Everything the Voice wants is exactly what a Herald might want and not what the Dalinar Stormfather has ever shown the slightest bit of interest in achieving. 

If we assume these are the same Stormfathers, then we have to assume that the Stormfather changed every single one of his goals, changed his personality, changed his personal interaction style, and changed his willingness to share information all so he could deal with Dalinar differently for very furtive reasons? And he does so even after saying to a dying Gavilar that the voice will never rely on a Kholin again? But then he does, because why not?

And then what about Syl? Surely she would have had enough interactions with the Stormfather to have said "Man, the Stormfather sure is weird these days", but she doesn't see anything off with how Dalinar and the Stormfather are interacting. Some readers are saying the Stormfather has changed recently, but Syl would have noticed that for sure. We also see the Stormfather and Kal, and those interactions also defy what Gavilar experiences. I just think it is too much work to believe Gavilar's Stormfather is legit, because then we have to assume the Modern Stormfather has been putting on a persona for years all to trick Dalinar into ... what? Not dying in the Everstorm and making progress on becoming a Herald? That just does not match at all. 

I am not willing to believe that Syl would be cool with Gavilar's Stormfather. Syl would 100% ring the imposter-alarm. And if the Stormfather had gone through some traumatic personality grafting, then Syl would have noticed and said something by now. And if people are saying that the Stormfather is deceiving even Syl, then something is very very very troubling about the Stormfather overall. And I would be cool with that. The Stormfather being a villian would be intense, but I dont think this is the logical consequence people mean when they say Gavilar's Stormfather is the real Stormfather. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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I was talking with friends, and something that could go for the cultivation being SF theory. We were wondering how Cultivation/Night watched would have access to the visions in the first place, but then realized that Lift has been able to get into visions, likely through Cultivation. And even if this isn't cultivation, I think it's very unlikely to be the SF because of how different he is from everything we have seen. 

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People keep saying he's different but I must be missing something here.

Other than lying how does the Stormfather behave differently?

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1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

If we assume these are the same Stormfathers, then we have to assume that the Stormfather changed every single one of his goals, changed his personality, changed his personal interaction style, and changed his willingness to share information all so he could deal with Dalinar differently? And he does so even after saying to a dying Gavilar that the voice will never rely on a Kholin again? 

And then what about Syl? Surely she would have had enough interactions with the Stormfather to have said "Man, the Stormfather sure is weird these days", but she doesnt see anything off with how Dalinar and the Stormfather are interacting. We also see the Stormfather and Kal, and those interactions also defy what Gavilar experiences. 

He did change his goals, after Gavilar he was intent on just letting the storms wipe everyone out and granting them a quick death. 
It was Dalinar not giving up on the oaths, defeating the enemy or on The Stormfather, in Dalinar forcing The Stormfather to bond him reluctantly. 
It was also Syl returning and confronting the Stormfather on her choosing to fight and bond again. 
But much of the SF understandings and changes grew as Dalinar forged the bond with him, I wonder too how much change in the Stormfather was triggered by Syl's bond to Kaladin, who speaks to him in the Storms, so he must have some connection to Kal through Syl.   
I think the SF tried, to direct things with Gavilar and failed, but he needed to give the visions, so with Dalinar he avoided contact as much as possible. 


Syl came back from being "lost" after Gavilars death so she would not have see or known anything about the Stormfather during her time "asleep" 
 

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1 minute ago, FollowYourMuse said:

He did change his goals, after Gavilar he was intent on just letting the storms wipe everyone out and granting them a quick death. 
It was Dalinar not giving up on the oaths, defeating the enemy or on The Stormfather, in Dalinar forcing The Stormfather to bond him reluctantly. 
It was also Syl returning and confronting the Stormfather on her choosing to fight and bond again. 
But much of the SF understandings and changes grew as Dalinar forged the bond with him, I wonder too how much change in the Stormfather was triggered by Syl's bond to Kaladin, who speaks to him in the Storms, so he must have some connection to Kal through Syl.   
I think the SF tried, to direct things with Gavilar and failed, but he needed to give the visions, so with Dalinar he avoided contact as much as possible. 


Syl came back from being "lost" after Gavilars death so she would not have see or known anything about the Stormfather during her time "asleep" 
 

But Gavilar's Stomfather doesn't say "I will give up", he says "They cannot know [a herald has died]", and seems to still be very actively working on new plans that will not involve Kholins anymore. Dalinar's Stormfather is full on Emo in WoR, but Gavilar's is talking about using people as tools and getting things done. Nothing about Gavilar's final interactions with the Voice makes me think that the Voice has given up or even remotely feels defeated. 

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Just now, teknopathetic said:

But Gavilar's Stomfather doesn't say "I will give up", he says "They cannot know [a herald has died]", and seems to still be very actively working on new plans that will not involve Kholins anymore. Dalinar's Stormfather is full on Emo in WoR, but Gavilar's is talking about using people as tools and getting things done. Nothing about Gavilar's final interactions with the Voice makes me think that the Voice has given up or even remotely feels defeated. 

I do not know that he ever felt defeated even when deciding to let the people all die quickly.  
 

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28 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

 "They cannot know [a herald has died]"

You're making assumptions here

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Posted (edited)

Quote

“Oh Gavilar, there is so little you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities.”

This is too clever a way of speaking for the Stormfather. There is also a hint of amusement and mockery. Stormfather does not have much of a sense of humor. 

We don’t see what Dalinar is doing when Jezrien died, but he never mentions the Stormfather freaking out and informing him a Jerald died. We do see another Herald, Ash, feel it when Jezrien died. It could be Ishar as I mentioned in a prior post.
 

Quote

“I have seen a glimpse of what is coming and I will not prevent it.”

*Gavilar asks Stormfather to take the gem*
“No.”

OK, this is very consistent with the Stormfather we know. The scariest possibility is this really is the Stormfather and he’s just playing Dalinar differently. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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9 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

This is too clever a way of speaking for the Stormfather. There is also a hint of amusement and mockery. Stormfather does not have much of a sense of humor. 

We don’t see what Dalinar is doing when Jezrien died, but he never mentions the Stormfather freaking out and informing him a Jerald died. We do see another Herald, Ash, feel it when Jezrien died. It could be Ishar as I mentioned in a prior post.
 

OK, this is very consistent with the Stormfather we know. The scariest possibility is this really is the Stormfather and he’s just playing Dalinar differently. 

It’s also possible we see both the StormFaker in the beginning and then the Stormfather at the end. Gavilar says that the “voice” sometimes seems human and sometimes seems alien, so that makes me think he gets interactions from both.


The OG Stormfather just didn’t care to do anything and isn’t aware of what the StormFaker has been up to. 
 

And this is supported in the text. Gavilar says the “Stormfather” thinks some of the interactions are not going as they should. That could very well be the real Stormfather being baffled by some of the interactions after StormFaker interference. 

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I keep coming back and forth between the Stormfather vs. Stormfaker theories.

In general, I think most of the changes in the SFs approach could be explained by him being very disappointed in Gavilar, the everstorm getting closer/herald dying and then failing with some people in between prologue and WoK. However, I still find this really odd that SF would outright lie to Gavilar even if it was lie of omission or just saying something that's technically true but letting Gavilar interpret it differently as mentioned above from Syl we can gather than honorspren are really unhappy with lying and Dalinar's whole bondmith thing was about how ends don't justify the means so I don't think SF should be able to mislead without any remorse of anything like that (interesting point if there's ever an instance when Dalinar lies to someone or considers it and does SF say anything?) And there are certain sentences that others have mentioned that just don't really sound like his voice that we have known. 

I think it can go either way depending on what is happening in KoW in general. If all of this is Stormfather I would imagine there will be some sort of conflict/confrontation between him and Dalinar about this. I can see for example SF lying sometime early on and people catching him on that - we as readers would be then warned earlier by the prologue that he can do that.

If there is a faker I am most likely to believe Cultivation just because I think she would be the most capable of pulling this off power/cunning wise and it seems like her sort of scheme. I could see some shenanigans going on with Tanavast but I feel like this would be a bit too complicated to introduce into the book now. I'm not a big fan of the Ishar theory I think its a bit convoluted but he and Dalinar are likely to spend some screen time together this book and that subplot would create an interesting dynamic between them so it could be an interesting resolution to this theory depending on how its written

Also I don't know if i missed it but is there a chance that whatever Thaidakar put in motion is Chana's death? We know Ghostbloods were all in Davar household and I agree with theories that while her death might not be necessary for the desolation it might have brought it closer in time which is exactly what Thaidakar says about what they did. Oh the complicated net of events and connections Brandon created here is so fascinating, can't wait to get my hands on this book and learn more

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11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Jezrien is drink almost all the time, and when he isn't he's babbling about being tortured.

Ashyn magic is powered by diseases, which are not on Roshar right now.

Actually it's just how spren bonds work, once one person is bonded it becomes easier to bond people close to them.

  Reveal hidden contents

Soni

Is there a reason for why so many early Radiants were family? Including theorized ones, we have Tien and Kaladin, Jasnah and Elhokar, Dalinar and Renarin, Shallan and Helaran...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, so I can give you the "how the sausage is made," I call this the narrative reason vs the in-world reason. I can give you both.

In-world reasoning is that, when these bonds are forming, these human beings have bonds to other people, and that naturally leads the spren along those bonds. When Kaladin is forming a bond with a windspren [honorspren], and windspren [honorspren] start looking, or even other sapient spren start looking for people, they're going to notice. Remember, they're coming into the Physical Realm, it's very hard for them. They're doing this partially from the Cognitive Realm, searching and trying to get pulled through by the attention and the bond that is forming. They're naturally led to other people who are related. You could even say that, because of Tien, Syl found Kaladin.

I built this in for a narrative reason, and the narrative reason is: we generally are going to want to have a larger than average number of people among the core characters, who are involved in the magic system, and involved in the narrative. Because the magic system is so important in my books, I knew that I was gonna have a lot of friends and family of main characters end up with spren bonds.

But I don't think this is unusual. In fact, I think this is more true to life. It's not one of those coincidences we make up for a book; it's one of those coincidences that happens in life that seems unusual. It seems unusual if you look at it and say, "There are five people who became full-time in the publishing industry during the year Brandon was a senior at BYU. And they are all friends; in fact, they were all friends before they got published." This seems unusual; like, why didn't anyone else? There is nobody else that I know that broke in into the industry from that year. Maybe it happened, but nobody I knew who wasn't in our immediate friend group. Well, this is not that surprising if you actually look at it, because when one person breaks in, it becomes so much easier for everyone else that knew that person. Not just for networking reasons. (Networking reasons: obvious). The other obvious one is: the people are gonna know each other because they're all gonna be moving in the same circles, looking for each other without knowing it. They're gonna be looking for other good writers, and they're gonna be making connections with them. They're gonna notice when people ask questions in a class that are the right kinds of questions to be asking about getting published.

But even beyond those two things, once I broke in, Dan Wells has said before he realized, "Brandon did this; this is real. He actually did this. I can do this." And indeed, he went and broke in. Once this thing that seems impossible, whether it's becoming a full time novelist, or forming a spren bond and becoming a Knight Radiant; once you've seen somebody do it, it becomes way easier for you to conceive of yourself doing it. This is why C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien were in the same writing group. This is why you see this sort of thing happening all around the world and in all sorts of professions, that people who were friends together... Every time that people are like, "Wow, these three major Hollywood stars knew each other in high school." Well, yes, that is actually more likely to happen than not, because of all these reasons I've talked about.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

You're right! Although Ishar is completely crazy and we do seem to be putting a lot of pages into theorizing that he's involved as well. 

And Ashyn magic is powered by diseases, but it hasn't always been

Quote

2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based?

 

2) No.

 

WOB

 

Just pointing out that we have no information that disease magic caused the Ashyn catastrophe. As far as I can tell the closest we have to them coexisting is a WoB saying that the catastrophe is why there are floating cities and floating cities are made possible because of disease magic. It definitely makes sense if somehow odium tricked Ishar into messing with a dawnshard while he had some powerful disease magic then it would be the same danger as having a spren with a dawnshard, we just haven't been given that info yet.

Nor do we know that Ishar has no abilities without his blade, we just know he doesn't have Ashyn disease magic

 

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I might have missed this so sorry if it has already been discussed, but how was it that the oathpact was formed in the first place? I was under the impression you needed a bondsmith. So how could the Stormfather (or Honor for that mater) make changes to it without a bondsmith? (I don't think he can.) So he was ether lying again, not really the Stormfather, or changes can be made to the oathpact without a bondsmith.

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Posted (edited)

So I finally had the time to read the prologue, and holy expletive! This was an interesting one.
As many have stated Gavilar knew so little, I almost felt bad for the poor dude. However, every time I almost did, he chose to act like crem, so I guess he had it coming. That was one thing that surprised how he chose to act cold and cruel and manipulative, even as he sometimes doubted it. In the end he always doubled down on it.

A couple of other things of note (before weighing in on the "Stormfather vs Stormfaker" debate):

  • "Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of Forms. Their other god. The one who could rival Him. The one…we betrayed" . Yes it was said by Kalak, and we should never trust a Herald as they are insane. Yet, claiming a spren could rival a Shard? That is a big claim. Note that he does not say that Mishram thought she could rival Odium, he syas that she could. Maybe the original Godspren Adonalsium left on Roshar were bigger deal than we thought.
     The second interesting part is that Kalak claims they betrayed Ba-Ado-Mishram, how would they do that? Maybe I am missing something or forgot something, but from the reports we have on the False Desolations it was Humans+Radiants vs Parshmen, so how could they betray Mishram? Maybe Heralds pushed her/made deal with her that allowed her to Connect to Parshmen (Ishar could probably do it)? And when it went very wrong they backed out, and helped Radiants seal her. But why would they do that?
  • It seems we have confirmation that aluminum boxes can be used to transport Investiture in Shadesmar even when ordinarily the Connection would make it impossible. Relevant quotes
    Quote

    "I’ve more good news. These experiments are working—-all of them. We can move Voidlight from the storm here. Move it between here and Damnation. As you’ve wanted.”
    ...
    "This is proof. The Connection is not severed, and the box allows for travel. Not yet as far as you’d like, but we must start the journey somewhere.”
    ...
    "Was this how he’d get the Heralds to Return? Trap their souls in gemstones, but them in an aluminum box, and transport them to Alethkar? It might work. Restares talked about Heralds souls as being like spren that could work this way…"

    All of this pretty much confirms that aluminum boxes alleviate to some extent the usual issues that appear when trying to transport strongly Connected Investiture like Stormlight or Voidlight. However, the technique they use does not yet allow transport on solar distances, only within the same solar system.

 

And now onto SF vs SF:
I am not fully sure, but I do think that at least some of the time there is another entity masquerading as Stormfather. At first I thought that when it is invisible it was fake and when it was present with shimmer it was Stormfather. However it was the shimmering presence that reacted to "Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it." by saying it was almost the Words, so that would go against it.
Despite that, the behavior is far too different through most of the chapter for me to think it is Stormfather. My evidence

  • Different font - not very strong piece, considering the entity switches at the end of chapter
  • Wildly different behavior in interaction with Gavilar vs Dalinar - could be explained by SF changing his mind, as he states at the end of chapter he regrets how he approached Gavilar, however this would not explain other seeming discrepancies
  • Claims to seek replacement Herald not Bondsmith - this seems to me as one of the stronger ones. At the start the entity seems to be implying it needs a replacement Herald as they are discussing Aharietiam. Through the chapter it is also trying to make sure Gavilar understands what would await him (torture), which is fate of a Herald not of a Radiant. Closer to end it hesitates in saying he will become Herald implying a lie, however it then describes fate of Herald
    Quote

    "But still, once you are a…Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you?

    I would venture a guess that this entity wants Gavilar to become 'Herald' in the sense of someone bound to Oathpact and tortured on Braize. Howeve, Gavilar would not get Honorblade (as Honor is dead), nor any other powers outside of immortality. In other words, he would mainly get the negatives and very little of perks. This would explain the hesitation in my mind, as it would not be 'true' Herald-dom as Gavilar would expect it.

  • The entity claims only most Heralds are insane -  As far as I know, the only ones denying insanity of all Heralds were also Heralds; denying either their own (Ishar), or of others (Nale, Shalash).

  • Claims "It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there." is not even close to Words - could be explained as the Intent behind the Words was not close

  • Claims "Give it to me. Now. I need it" is almost the Words - This does not sound like any Radiant Ideal at all, much less any Oath. It does sound very void-y thought. (Give me your pain and all that)

  • Is not emotional about Recreance - The Stormfather is very angry about Recreance and its consequences (his behavior towards Kal, protectiveness of Sibling, etc.). In contrast the entity describes it as unfortunate and necessary, but does not sound very emotional to me.

    Quote

    "It all came crashing down, and so some brave men and women—Radiants—did something that had to be done, trapping Mishram in a gemstone to prevent her from destroying all of Roshar. The side effect of that event created the parshmen."

     

  • Calls Gavilar its tool

  • The behavior of "Stormfather" is inconsistent - Gavilar himself notes that the Stormfather sometimes behaves one way, and other times another way

    Quote

    "Gavilar wasn’t certain if the spren could be said to have human mannerisms. Sometimes, it seemed so—and others, it seemed completely unfathomable. "

     

  • Provides different answer to the same question - Gavilar twice asks if the Stormfather regerts choosing him, both times phrasing it the same "Do you regret choosing me?". Once the entity gives a non-answer ("You are the one I have chosen.") and the second time does reply he regrets how he treated him "I regret, the Stormfather said, the way I have treated you. "

  • The entity can feel Herald being killed - as far as I remember only other Heralds were shown to be affected?

  • If Bondsmiths are meant to be guiding, Gavilar is manipulative (and not for the good of anyone but himself)

Each piece is not necessarily definitive proof, but there is so many of them, it feels like something is going on. Now of course, if something is going on what is it?
I think there are only three candidates, Ishar, some Voidspren (fragment of Mishram?), or some part of Tanavast. My evidence for each:

Ishar:

  • Faker claims to seek replacement Herald, Ishar in his moment of greater lucidity wants to remake the oathpact
  • Ishar already had Bondsmith-like powers prior to becoming a Herald (hence should not need his blade at least for some feats), and Bondsmith powers predate both Heralds and Radiants
  • The entity can feel Herald being killed
  • Claims only most Heralds are insane (would not consider himself insane)

Piece of Mishram

  • the entity disapproves of Radiant-like words, but approve of more emotional and voidish ones
  • the entity seeks only one 'Herald' (at least Gavilar has that impression) and Mishram would only seek one 'Voidsmith'
  • Gavilar behaves as a sort of twisted mirror of Bondsmith (manipulative instead of guiding, pragmatic/profane instead of pious)
  • however Mishram as far as we know has nothing to do with Oathpact -> so why would it react to Herald being killed?

Piece of Tanavast

  • entity has access to visions
  • entity has interest in Oathpact and redoing it
  • can feel Herald being killed (Honor was part of Oathpact, so it would make sense to have remaining connection)


I will add that the other option, that it is Stormfather, he does lie and he has some agenda is a very intriguing possibility in its own right, as it would create quite a bit of tension throughout the book.

Edited by therunner
accidentaly posted before finishing argument for each case
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20 hours ago, robardin said:

But we see from Dalinar's experiences of the visions that Honor had a clear to-do list of suggestions for his successor:

Refound the Knights Radiant. Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose. Propose a Contest of Champions.

And that he was already kind of rambling and losing it mentally, and aware of that, while recording the visions. Why would he go so far off that script with Gavilar while showing him the same visions? Which he apparently saw without the same voiceover? And suddenly be so present of mind as to plot, scheme, and feign?

Assuming

  1. There is only one script
  2. Honor did not put clear conditions on what you can mention

For example, would you have wanted to mention that the Dawnshards are real to Gavilar?

20 hours ago, robardin said:

Plus, the Words that Gavilar "almost got right" with the so-called Stormfather was in demanding "give it to me, now" in response to mention of "the position I am offering you" - which is not the way the Stormfather ever refers to his bond with Dalinar, if you consider that to be "offering the position" of Bondsmith, especially before the bond was formed (where the SF is angry about the prospect at the end of WoR: I will not be bound....!)

The Stormfather is required to send those messages and had decided to destroy the Everstorm. There is nothing to say that he liked the bond. The mystery is why the Stormfather did not know the reason for the Recreance. Presumably because he was bondless. Still, at least The Sibling should know.

20 hours ago, robardin said:

And he kind of does have a point. If you're fighting to win, why would you stop before you win? The cycles of Desolations of setbacks and clawbacks just means you're respawning from an earlier point in the game every time, so to speak?

Yes, the oathpact was not a wise choice. Fundamentally we do not understand the reasoning behind it. For example Honor equipped the Heralds so suspiciously well for war that I have a hard time believing that he thought that the Heralds would keep their word.

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1 hour ago, therunner said:

 

Ishar:

  • Faker claims to seek replacement Herald, Ishar in his moment of greater lucidity wants to remake the oathpact
  • Ishar already had Bondsmith-like powers prior to becoming a Herald (hence should not need his blade at least for some feats), and Bondsmith powers predate both Heralds and Radiants
  • The entity can feel Herald being killed
  • Claims only most Heralds are insane (would not consider himself insane)

 

Piece of Tanavast

  • entity has access to visions
  • entity has interest in Oathpact and redoing it
  • can feel Herald being killed (Honor was part of Oathpact, so it would make sense to have remaining connection)

 

On evidence it is Ishar I would add that the last time we saw Ishar in RoW he told Dalinar he can alter the Oathpact but he needs to be close to a Bondsmith swearing an ideal to help him.

This was right before he teleports away, presumably right after Navani bonded the Sibling which seemed to snap him out of his megalomania briefly. Not sure if he needs the mental clarity or a boost in power from a Bondsmith Oath. 

So this “Stormfather” is also trying to alter the Oathpact and is trying to get Gavilar to swear something. 
One other possible hint is that Gavilar calls the Heralds the 10 fools for enduring the torture. Moments later when Gavilar figures out he was lied and asks who are you the entity says it’s “the biggest fool of them all.” Calling back to Gavilar equating the Heralds with fools.

I could see it being the remnant of Tanavast within the Stormfather that was more dominant at the time. When Gavilar looks into it’s eyes it gets a similar view of Roshar that Gavilar saw in the Vision with Odium. A tiny blue speck of a planet, except this view is more storm focused.

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“No,” Thaidakar said. “I only want you to take care. Restares is not what you think he is. None of this is what you think it is. Deliver him to my agents, then we’ll give you what you said that you wanted: a return of the ancient days you’ve hungered for. A chance for the powers to come back.”

“I’ve grown beyond that,” Gavilar said.

“You can’t ‘grow beyond’ the tide, Gavilar,” Thaidakar replied. “You swim with it or get swept away. The things we’ve started are in motion. And to be honest, I don’t know that we did that much. I think that tide was coming whatever we did.”

The two bolded lines in particular make me wonder whether the Ghostbloods played a role in Chana's death, assuming Chana is actually Shallan's mother. 

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1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

The two bolded lines in particular make me wonder whether the Ghostbloods played a role in Chana's death, assuming Chana is actually Shallan's mother. 

that would explain why the Ghostbloods know so much about Shallan in the first place, and how they were able to manipulate her so well

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The biggest surprise (I'm tempted to say "disappointment") for me in the prologue was the utter lack of evidence that Gavilar was Invested when he died.  I was willing to bet ALL my emerald broams that he was destined for Cognitive Shadowhood.  While I'm not yet ready to completely give up on my dream of Gavilar making a spectacular comeback in SA5, I am bummed that we didn't see at least some hints at the beginning of that process.

RoW seemed to imply that Gavilar

1)  thought he had already done what he needed to do to be "immortal";

2)  knew he was working with Heralds;

3)  had knowledge of Shadesmar, Braize, other planets, and Worldhoppers;

4)  had access to multiple forms of Investiture;

5)  might even hold Biochromatic Breath (some speculated about Lifesense when he noticed Navani peeking through the door);

6)  had at least a proto-bond with the Stormfather.

Every one of these is either explicitly UNsupported by the prologue or completely demolished.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that what I thought was tons of foreshadowing for Gavilar's return may instead have been a giant pile of red herring.  I don't even LIKE fish!  I spent the last six months believing Gavilar was a dangerous storming genius... and now he looks like a putz.  I'm a bit sad.

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4 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

The biggest surprise (I'm tempted to say "disappointment") for me in the prologue was the utter lack of evidence that Gavilar was Invested when he died.  I was willing to bet ALL my emerald broams that he was destined for Cognitive Shadowhood.  While I'm not yet ready to completely give up on my dream of Gavilar making a spectacular comeback in SA5, I am bummed that we didn't see at least some hints at the beginning of that process.

RoW seemed to imply that Gavilar

1)  thought he had already done what he needed to do to be "immortal";

2)  knew he was working with Heralds;

3)  had knowledge of Shadesmar, Braize, other planets, and Worldhoppers;

4)  had access to multiple forms of Investiture;

5)  might even hold Biochromatic Breath (some speculated about Lifesense when he noticed Navani peeking through the door);

6)  had at least a proto-bond with the Stormfather.

Every one of these is either explicitly UNsupported by the prologue or completely demolished.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that what I thought was tons of foreshadowing for Gavilar's return may instead have been a giant pile of red herring.  I don't even LIKE fish!  I spent the last six months believing Gavilar was a dangerous storming genius... and now he looks like a putz.  I'm a bit sad.

He also had a small redemption arc in his death, so it would be hard for him to come back now as a villain 

Everyone was so happy to see that he was a storming idiot, but i was like 'but I wanted an evil mastermind villain'

Will Dalinar ever find out how much of a jerk his brother was now?

Also, why develop his character so much if he is just gonna die now??

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10 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

The biggest surprise (I'm tempted to say "disappointment") for me in the prologue was the utter lack of evidence that Gavilar was Invested when he died.  I was willing to bet ALL my emerald broams that he was destined for Cognitive Shadowhood.  While I'm not yet ready to completely give up on my dream of Gavilar making a spectacular comeback in SA5, I am bummed that we didn't see at least some hints at the beginning of that process.

RoW seemed to imply that Gavilar

1)  thought he had already done what he needed to do to be "immortal";

2)  knew he was working with Heralds;

3)  had knowledge of Shadesmar, Braize, other planets, and Worldhoppers;

4)  had access to multiple forms of Investiture;

5)  might even hold Biochromatic Breath (some speculated about Lifesense when he noticed Navani peeking through the door);

6)  had at least a proto-bond with the Stormfather.

Every one of these is either explicitly UNsupported by the prologue or completely demolished.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that what I thought was tons of foreshadowing for Gavilar's return may instead have been a giant pile of red herring.  I don't even LIKE fish!  I spent the last six months believing Gavilar was a dangerous storming genius... and now he looks like a putz.  I'm a bit sad.

I agree this felt like a U turn from the RoW foreshadowing. The one way that I could see the CS thing happening for him now would be Odium intervening just as Gavilar died. Odium could meet with him knowing that he had him over a barrel and could force him to take a bad deal. I’m reminded of Rayse telling Taravangian that he intentionally met with him on a a day when he would be at a disadvantage (though look how that worked out for him). 

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Thoughts that came to me as I read through some of the thread. Some of these thoughts don't have a huge amount of evidence for them, to be fair:

- While reading the passage I was willing to take it at face value that the Stormfather was real, and was truthfully trying to replace the Heralds. I was confused by the way it manifested as basically a humanoid heat shimmer, but I thought it might be due to the attempts to become a Herald rather than a Radiant. After thinking on it (Mistborn)

Spoiler

It does seem reminiscent of the mist spirit, and that was portrayed by both a cognitive shadow and another shard. Perhaps Ishar is doing shenanigans, or maybe another shard is mucking around?

- The 'Stormfather' does seem quite shocked that Gavilar would abandon his post. Perhaps he genuinely thought that Gavilar was able and willing to hold out, and after realising he wouldn't simply gave up on trying to make Oathpact 2.0.

- Wasn't it fairly explicit in ROW that Ishar had some kind of magical capability before the Honorblades? I don't see why him having his blade makes a difference to whether he can get up to mischief.

- Lying does seem like a mark in favour of Stormfaker, but could the real Stormfather just be bending the oath of truthfullness to keep an oath to prevent a desolation? He could be tricking Gavilar because he believes that no-one would willingly take on the torture involved in the Oathpact, but someone as noble as Gavilar is pretending to be might be willing to rise to the occasion. Especially as is noted in OB (I think it's that one) that the Stormfather loses much of his understanding of how people work when unbonded.

- Saying (not promising, it's worth pointing out) he'll never trust another Kholin might well be the spren equivalent of a hungover promise to never drink again. Especially if my theory about Bondsmiths needing to bully their spren into a bond in order to show they have the fortitude to be equal partners with Godspren is true. Dalinar is changing in the years since Gavilar's death, and also shows his will by pressuring the Stormfather into a bond. The 'Stormfather' does hint that a demand is very close to what he needs to hear.

- Ishar's insanity doesn't seem like the crucial theorycrafting point people are making it out to be. Can we take the word of a man who murders mages to stop the invasion of the enemies those mages fight, a woman who destroys anything representing her own image, a 'Herald of kings' turned drooling drunk, a nervous wreck and a mantra-quoting, borderline catatonic man mountain on who is sane?

- Could the sliver of Honor that is within the Stormfather and the Stormfather himself not be as intertwined as first though? Could the former be impersonating the latter?

- The seon touching Thaidakar's hood really doesn't seem very important. I took it as sort of a Cosmere hologram. I mean, when Darth Maul appears in Sidious' messages, no-one freaks out because Maul is in the room with them.

- Overall, I feel that the similarities and inconsistencies can be explained by either the real Stormfather or the Stormfaker. The Stormfather acts differently than he did with Dalinar because he failed spectacularly with Gavilar, and if we take him at face value, there may well be differences in behaviour depending on if he is recruiting for Radiants or Heralds. He also has characteristics like a rumbling voice, and the flash at the end where he resembles his normal form. The Stormfaker would have to be a moron to not at least try to be like the real Stormfather, and he does appear to lie which might be out of character for a spren so tied to oaths.

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“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

Here's another wildly speculative take. I just realized that this passage's emphasis on a command being the correct words to join the Oathpact is very reminiscent of the Dawnshards. Perhaps the Dawnshard Unite or Connect or whatever this hypothetical Dawnshard is called was integral to the formation of the Oathpact. It certainly explains how Honor was able to forcibly bind Odium to Roshar while other Shards did not do so when Odium attacked them. Not that this is the first time this idea has been suggested, but I think this passage is hinting at such a connection between the Oathpact and a Dawnshard.

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I think the Dawnsgard(s) have a big role on Roshar. It is worth exploring this if someone has any further ideas.

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Posted (edited)

Late to the party, but here are some thoughts:

I am glad that Gavilar, while certainly a highly functioning narcissist, did show some shades of gray and wasn't nearly as inexplicably "in the know" as he seemed in RoW. I also feel vindicated in my belief that Nale wasn't working with him in any way and that in fact it was only Gavilar being king that prevented him from getting executed personally then and there by said Herald. There is still no confirmation that Nale's highspren led the listeners to Szeth IIRC, but it is very likely at this point. P.S. Had a brainfart, all of this was, of course, explained in RoW and it was Ulim. Anyway, re-reading the relevant RoW chapter Nale oddly said that Gavilar "...lures us with promises, then breaks them by seeking that which I told him was forbidden!". But it doesn't seem in this prologue that Gavilar made any promises that Nale could have been interested in? Kalak just wanted to leave Rosharan system, but it wouldn't have been in character for Nale to do so. Nor did he forbid the king anything previously, since we now know that this was their one and only interaction. I also don't understand why Kalak thought that moving voidlight between the planets was a big deal, when it is clear that moving Seons between different star systems is a routine matter and that should have been closer to what is required to move a spren or a Herald. What am I not seeing?

It did stick out to me that while Gavilar privately acknowledged Navani's talents and seriously considered bringing her in on the secret, he didn't entertain any such thoughts about his daughter, who was already widely acknowledged as a genius. Which is odd, IMHO, as it is now clear that he couldn't care less about heresy. Additionally, Aesudan doesn't merit any mention and wasn't one of the women present when Eshonai stumbled onto the meeting, as I used to believe. She also seemed to  have known something of what Gavilar was about and appeared to have been working for him in the previous 2 books, so that's strange.

I am disappointed that Kelsier was facilitating an apocalypse on another world. I  don't understand why he is unable to world-hop when this problem was obviously already solved for Seons. Is a cognitive shadow really so different? And why was he interested in Kalak in particular? It isn't like the latter was able to crack the puzzle either. Is it because his affliction interferes with his fighting ability and he _can_ be  captured by normals? Because wasn't Nale also involved in BAM's imprisonment, but good luck kidnapping him. And why is Kelsier so interested in BAM and later Sja-Anat?

Concerning Chana being Shallan's mother, it seems rather likely at this point, sadly. Even though it makes very little sense that a Herald, for whom having children was supposed to be difficult, would have born more kids than any other Vorin woman we have met so far! Which, btw, is another plot hole. All those constantly warring Alethi really needed to have bigger families for plausible survival. Also, a Herald wouldn't have needed a "friend" to hold down her husband. And I really don't see what it brings to Shallan's story. Oh, well.

Regarding the Stormfather's odd behavior, I am in the camp that it was Tanavast's cognitive shadow and that it interacts with Dalinar seldom and covertly, for instance maskerading as Nohadon or occasionally saying things that the Stormfather is unaware of. "I am the _thing_ that has miscalculated" doesn't strike me as something that Ishar would say. The prologue to WoK also suggests that the Heralds can't feel each other die a "normal" death. I have always found it odd that while we were told that Honor's cognitive shadow merged with the Stormfather, there was never any sign of it in his personality - he was all spren. It makes a lot of sense to me if it actually exists as a separate hidden consciousness within the Stormfather that only emerges rarely. It may seem odd that it could lie - but then, we have seen slivers of Preservation be quite destructive and murderous, so there are precedents. And maybe this was the weakness that allowed Honor to get splintered. We already knew that Honor tried to keep the secret of humans being invaders from the Radiants and helped them "to reconcile" this truth with their mission statement when it got rediscovered, which already skirts dangerously close to lying, so...  

Regarding the words, there is this in chapter 38 of OB:

"THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR AND HE _GAVE_ THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH.", - that's what "give it to me" is close to, IMHO.

Edited by Isilel
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