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Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

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49 minutes ago, robardin said:

But we see from Dalinar's experiences of the visions that Honor had a clear to-do list of suggestions for his successor:

Refound the Knights Radiant. Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose. Propose a Contest of Champions.

And that he was already kind of rambling and losing it mentally, and aware of that, while recording the visions. Why would he go so far off that script with Gavilar while showing him the same visions? Which he apparently saw without the same voiceover? And suddenly be so present of mind as to plot, scheme, and feign?

Plus, the Words that Gavilar "almost got right" with the so-called Stormfather was in demanding "give it to me, now" in response to mention of "the position I am offering you" - which is not the way the Stormfather ever refers to his bond with Dalinar, if you consider that to be "offering the position" of Bondsmith, especially before the bond was formed (where the SF is angry about the prospect at the end of WoR: I will not be bound....!)

It's the kind of boon/bane thing a presumed Cultivation offers Dalinar here. The boon would have been something like, Gavilar becomes something like a Herald, bolstering the weakening Oathpact (or creating a new one... There's usually a pause before using the word "Herald" to Gavilar in this prologue). And the bane would be, it's not what he thought he signed up for. (Probably why she describes the downsides to being a human-immortal spren combo - she has to quote the price, so to speak, and give the person a chance to state their knowing Intent.)

On the other hand, saying that the Words Gavilar needed to find were in Nohadon's The Way of Kings was interesting. The obvious reference would be to the Immortal Words of the First Ideal, common to all Radiants, but surely Gavilar would have tried that already? (Assuming it's mentioned in that work somewhere?) It could be a passage we haven't yet seen.

And apparently, Gavilar's "isn't it obvious?" answer to how he would deal with eons of torture in between bouts of fighting managed to be a complete surprise. "I'll just give up immediately and go right back to fighting - isn't that the point?"

And he kind of does have a point. If you're fighting to win, why would you stop before you win? The cycles of Desolations of setbacks and clawbacks just means you're respawning from an earlier point in the game every time, so to speak?

If this is Cultivation's doing it's curious that she with her future-sight that this is not something she would have anticipated. It makes little sense that she would even pretend to be shocked. Why react at all?

20 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think I know what the words the 'SF' was asking for.

On the one hand, he dismisses the words close to the first ideal as 'not even close'

Then when gavilar says ' give it to me, I need it', he says that was close.

When gavilar thinks of it as a demand, SF backtracks again

He says the words are in the way of kings

Maybe the words are 'I seek my duty'

In the nale flashback, jezrien clearly says think of it not as an honor, but as a duty.

In in world words of radiance, melishi's plan was based on the divine 'duties' of a herald

The heralds are uniquely equipped with skills to help civilization rebuild each time, part of their duties?

The chapter icons for heralds have names like 'the king' 'the judge' 'the guard's.

I am sure there are more instances of 'duty' being attached to the oathpact.

It may indeed all come down to duty. Gavilar is a cynic. For him everything is a means to an end to achieve power and legacy. The Way of Kings, the codes, the stormfather. He does not mean anything that he says. Being a bondsmith as Dalinar is abhors things being means to an end. As a bondsmith he would have a duty to unite that no cynicism will allow. Saying the words are worthless if he does not mean them. Jezrien back in the very beginning calls the oathpact a burden that they willingly picked up. Well while that is not explicitly speaking of a duty implicitly it seems clear that that is the subtext. Without speaking of duty Gavilar's intent is hollow. What he seeks is impossible. I think that duty is the missing piece.

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13 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

There was never ANYTHING in the safe.  It was always a visual metaphor - young Shallan visualizing the "fruit of her sin" or whatever.  Nobody else ever saw it.

...

I'm also not convinced of the "StormFaker" idea (although I LOVE the term "StormFaker"!).

I think "StormFaker" is great too, and officially put forth that the Faker is Cultivation (so let it be written!)

As for what was in the safe... Shallan says to Pattern at the end of WoR as she remembers killing her mother, to advance (again) in Ideals,

Quote

She was there, in her father’s room. Trembling, she pulled aside the picture, revealing the strongbox in the wall beyond. She raised the key, and hesitated. “Mother’s soul is inside.”

“Mmm . . . No. Not her soul. That which took her soul.”

Shallan unlocked the safe, then tugged it open, revealing the contents. A small Shardblade. Thrust into the strongbox hastily, tip piercing through the back, hilt toward her.

“This was you,” she whispered.

“Mmm . . . Yes.”

“Father took you from me,” Shallan said, “and tried to hide you in here. Of course, that was useless. You vanished as soon as he closed the strongbox. Faded to mist. He wasn’t thinking clearly. Neither of us were.”

Well Shallan still wasn't thinking clearly even in recounting this, as she's still not remembered that she broke her bond with "Testament", the Cryptic spren she had been bonded to at the time (and who formed that Blade).

Pattern is obligingly pretending (as he did all the way through to nearly the end of RoW) that he was the same spren all along, but he knows he wasn't.

It stands to reason that for a while anyway, with the bond broken, that that "small Shardblade" - knife-sized, small enough to be wielded by a child - remained locked in that form like any other deadspren Shardblade after being summoned, "killed", and abandoned - the way the weapons at Feverstone Keep were.

It could well be that it remained in that box until the next time Shallan summoned Testament as a Blade, in killing Tyn. We just don't know.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think "StormFaker" is great too, and officially put forth that the Faker is Cultivation (so let it be written!)

As for what was in the safe... Shallan says to Pattern at the end of WoR as she remembers killing her mother, to advance (again) in Ideals,

Well Shallan still wasn't thinking clearly even in recounting this, as she's still not remembered that she broke her bond with "Testament", the Cryptic spren she had been bonded to at the time (and who formed that Blade).

Pattern is obligingly pretending (as he did all the way through to nearly the end of RoW) that he was the same spren all along, but he knows he wasn't.

It stands to reason that for a while anyway, with the bond broken, that that "small Shardblade" - knife-sized, small enough to be wielded by a child - remained locked in that form like any other deadspren Shardblade after being summoned, "killed", and abandoned - the way the weapons at Feverstone Keep were.

It could well be that it remained in that box until the next time Shallan summoned Testament as a Blade, in killing Tyn. We just don't know.

Pattern doesnt actually know what happened here. Pattern wasn't present in the physical realm for this, so Pattern cant really say what happened. Pattern assumed this was the case based on what had happened to Testament. The reader believes Pattern here, but in RoW we discover this is all Crem and Pattern is lying and making things up here and there for Shallan's benefit. Pattern does not know everything that happened with Testament, so we can reasonably assume Pattern was not a witness for the death of Shallan's mother. 

If there was a bright light, I really don't think Pattern would have any way of knowing.

Edited by teknopathetic
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15 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I would also like to put forward Nohadon as another potential candidate for the Stormfaker:

1. When Dalinar hears Jansah read The Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral, Dalinar sees unexplained radiant light coming from the sound of the words. Only Dalinar seems to see that light. That is light is never explained in the story and is still a Chekov's Gun. 

2. Dalinar has an unexplained Nohadon vision that the Stormfather does not experience. This proves to us that it is possible to have non-Stormfather visions, and suspiciously, the man behind "find the most important words a man can say" is the central figure of that vision. Dalinar remarks over and over that Nohadon seems more real than people in other visions. 

That has been answered

Spoiler

Jofwu

Dalinar had two really weird visions. Was that Connection-y stuff like he did with Kaladin and Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Which ones are you talking about?

Jofwu

End of Words of Radiance, and in Oathbringer with Nohadon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be the same sort of weirdness that's happening with Tien. Yes, so you have basically multiple different ways of interpreting this. One is just--what Dalinar wants is directly... he is starting to change the visions specifically, and some might argue he is pulling from the Beyond. Others would argue that what Dalinar wants, feels things in his past, he is actually enforcing upon the vision, and is changing and altering the visions. And that is absolutely going on. It's whether the other thing is happening or not, depends on your personal religious beliefs. But Dalinar is starting, the Bondsmithing is starting to shape the visions.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

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Just now, teknopathetic said:

Pattern doesnt actually know what happened here. Pattern wasn't present in the physical realm for this, so Pattern cant really say what happened. Pattern assumed this was the case based on what had happened to Testament. 

Yes, I wasn't talking about what Pattern knew or pretended to know - I was talking about Shallan equating "that Blade was Pattern" and "Pattern is a living spren" with "the Blade vanished to mist". That's not how deadspren Blades "vanish to mist"; they need to be dismissed, even as she does later when summoning the Testamentblade with Tyn.

Just saying it's possible. Re-reading her (presumably now truthful) memory of how she killed Testament in RoW, it isn't clear if that is before or after her father had hastily "put the Shardblade away".

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On 3/31/2022 at 1:39 AM, teknopathetic said:

I am so excited my Shallan killed her mother-herald theory is looking very likely! 

I'm all for it !

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Posted (edited)

If Shallan's mother was indeed Chana... That just raises a whole bunch more questions

If Heralds can have children (father or mother), and they've been "civilians" for thousands of years... Shouldn't there be a lot of Heraldic descendants?

Why would Chana have married a relatively minor Veden lighteyes?

But most of all, if this means that she was the one who "broke" on Braize to start this Final Desolation (since we know it wasn't Taln), ... That means Chana is back on Roshar now, and it is possible that Shallan will run into her again? I mean, it would HAVE to happen, right? Why set that scenario up if it wouldn't?

Like the poor girl isn't messed up enough in the head!

Edited by robardin
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Posted (edited)

On 3/30/2022 at 2:04 PM, Pagerunner said:

I'm looking forward to spending some time tonight going through it again in detail. A few thoughts and impressions (aside from the Chana Davar bit):

  • I'm not sure if this Stormfather was really the Stormfather. Obviously, Gavilar's visions and the way the prologue Stormfather talks about Dalinar are points in favor of it being the true Stormfather. On the other hand, there are some notable differences with how he's manifesting: as an individual, and the distinctly Shard-like infinity sensation I seem to recall at the end. (That's one of the lines I want to get the exact wording.) I don't see it being Odium or another Herald manipulating Gavilar; I think, if this isn't the Stormfather, it's something very close to the Stormfather. A remnant of Honor, somehow; there's another line about "choosing to" vs "being commanded to" that make me think it's Tanavast pretending to be the Stormfather. But if it is the real Stormfather, his mission of choosing a new Herald (and then lying about stuff) and his active lying to Gavilar also throw a lot of his later interactions with Dalinar into question.

EDIT2: Here are some longer thoughts on my first and last bullet points, with the actual quotes.

 

I haven't read far enough down the thread to see if anyone has suggested this, so apologies if I'm not the first:

I think the Stormfather has been Enlightened (or whatever the word is) by Sja-Anat. Either that, or this is Sja-Anat pretending to the be the Stormfather or something like that. 

Reasons are the things you mentioned, plus the Stormfather looking like Sja-Anat does when the Herald dies. I'll dig up quotes if someone presses, but otherwise the similarities should be clear enough. 

I also think that what the Stormfather doesn't want the Heralds to know/see is this Enlightenment. But that's more speculative obviously.

 

Edited by coolsnow7
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On 3/30/2022 at 1:48 PM, Serack said:

I don’t think the 2 have to be mutually exclusive.  The everstorm probably was enough, but Chararch might have greased the skids

I think this is strongly correct. 

Emphasis on what Thaidakar said (paraphrasing): "we didn't really do much. This was probably going to happen without our efforts."

True for his efforts, but also for Chanarach breaking the Oathpact, and maybe even true of the Everstorm. We've seen Shards - specifically, Ruin - line events up extremely precisely, exactly along these lines. No one should be surprised when an event that seems like it was a happy accident (for Odium) turns out to be him lining things up to coincide with his best opportunity at freedom.

Ultimately we don't know what killed Honor. And that is going to be much, much more consequential for any of this than these random contingencies. 

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7 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I think this is strongly correct. 

Emphasis on what Thaidakar said (paraphrasing): "we didn't really do much. This was probably going to happen without our efforts."

True for his efforts, but also for Chanarach breaking the Oathpact, and maybe even true of the Everstorm. We've seen Shards - specifically, Ruin - line events up extremely precisely, exactly along these lines. No one should be surprised when an event that seems like it was a happy accident (for Odium) turns out to be him lining things up to coincide with his best opportunity at freedom.

Ultimately we don't know what killed Honor. And that is going to be much, much more consequential for any of this than these random contingencies. 

This is my favourite Desolation theory:

  • Chanarach is Shallan's mother and the Herald who died during the Prologue but:
  • She didn't break, and neither did Taln, nor any other Herald.

This is based mostly on the fact that the True Desolation isn't going down like the others. Ulim's plan with the Everstorm did precisely what was intended, is sufficient on its own to cause this Desolation, and most importantly didn't require a Herald to die and break.

They use the Everstorm to circumvent the Oathpact. The Everstorm had been building for "centuries" in the Cognitive Realm. On top of that, Nale outright says that a Connection to Braize would be necessary to open a bridge there. What's on Braize that has a Connection to something on Roshar? Well, Taln is connected to the other Heralds, and Ash particularly.

I think that's the connection that allowed the Everstorm to leak out in the first place. Maybe all 4,500 years, maybe after something messed with the Oathpact after Ba-Ado-Mishram, maybe just recently.

So what did Chanarach dying change? She's the only Herald we know of to have a non-Herald family. I think her connection to the Davars blew the bridge to Braize wide open, allowing Ulim to accelerate his plans and bring more voidspren through. Furthermore, I think the Connection is more than just a deep familial bond - I would guess some magical shenanigans to help stave off the madness, which might explain why all the Davar family are so thoroughly messed up. 

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That Prologue was a lot to digest, so I’ve gone through it and tried to pull out the relevant things that various characters do, say and think.

Gavilar:

  • Believes the Stormfather is guiding him towards Words that, if he finds them, will make him into a Herald.
  • Believes the current Heralds are all on Braize, being tortured, per the Oathpact.
  • Knows that a Return is coming, and thinks this will be the opportunity for him to replace one of the Heralds.
  • The Stormfather has implied there’s only room for one new Herald.
  • Believes that his experimental Light will be a good weapon against the Voidbringers, and thinks he may even be able to use it to control them. Understands that fighting without the new Light would be a huge problem.
  • Does not recognise Szeth’s Honorblade, doesn’t connect Szeth’s abilities to either the Honorblades or Radiant powers.

The Stormfather:

  • Does not correct the things Gavilar thinks about the Heralds, presumably implied a lot of it, or lied outright.
  • Talks about Gavilar becoming a ‘... Herald’, but hesitates.
  • Encourages Gavilar to read Way of Kings and find the Words.
  • Told Gavilar that spren can’t lie.
  • Asks probing questions about how Gavilar will handle immortality.
  • Has grown increasingly ‘suspicious and hostile’ (according to Gavilar).
  • Refuses to reveal information about the causes of the Recreance, is very cagey about Knights Radiant in general.
  • Talks about being instructed by Honor to show someone the visions to ‘prevent calamity’, but also refers to choosing to do this. Does not explain the discrepancy.
  • Panics when a Herald dies, says he isn’t ‘ready’.
  • Gives up on Gavilar when Gavilar reveals his plan to trigger endless Returns. 
  • Calls his efforts with Gavilar a ‘miscalculation’, blames both himself and Gavilar, says he will never trust Gavilar’s family again. If he tries showing the visions again, he will approach it differently.

Thaidakar:

  • Wants to get hold of Restares (unknown reasons, but Restares thinks Thaidakar wants to find Ba Ado Mishram).
  • Promised Gavilar a ‘return of ancient powers’. (Probably a false promise?)

Restares:

  • Wants the ‘honor of men’ to return.
  • Does not want the Radiants to return.
  • Is afraid of another Voidbringer Return if the Radiants come back. (Possibly got this idea from Nale?)
  • My interpretation: Restares wants people to start speaking and living by the Ideals again, but without the associated spren bonds and powers.

Some of my thoughts and theories:

  • Gavilar definitely makes a lot of assumptions, and the Stormfather could have used this to pull a ‘nothing I said was technically untrue’ trick. However, he does reference Gavilar becoming a Herald plainly, and ties this to Gavilar speaking the Words. There’s no doubt that the Stormfather is lying here.
  • The Stormfather has emphasised the importance of The Way of Kings, which is essentially an introductory textbook to the philosophy of the First Ideal and Bondsmithing. He’s trying to get Gavilar to bond him, but has been untruthful with Gavilar about what that will achieve. He has also told Gavilar that he (the Stormfather) is unable to lie. He seems to be setting up Gavilar to be a Bondsmith who is manipulated and controlled by the Stormfather.
  • So, what is the Stormfather’s end goal here? What was he planning on doing with Gavilar? I think the Stormfather genuinely planned to have Gavilar become a new Herald. As a Bondsmith, and with the Stormfather’s approval, Gavilar would have had the power to alter the Oathpact and insert himself into it. This is what the Stormfather was preparing him for, and the reason for the concern over what Gavilar would do once he became a Herald.
  • And why is the Stormfather lying and withholding so much information? He wants to prevent the return of the Knights Radiant. He still blames the Radiants for what happened during the Recreance, and he doesn’t want a similar calamity to happen again. He keeps all relevant information to himself, so that Gavilar can’t use it to found a new order of Knights Radiant. That’s why he needs Gavilar to think that saying the Words will turn him into a Herald. If the Stormfather guides Gavilar through the intermediary steps, Gavilar never needs to know.
  • And why would the Stormfather want a new Herald? Because the Oathpact is the solution that Honor came up with, and the Stormfather is, in large part, what is left of Honor. He doesn’t truly understand why the Oathpact can’t work in the long term. He only understands that his Heralds broke. What do you do when your Heralds break? You get new ones. 

Wow, this got longer than I intended! I hope somebody finds it useful or interesting.

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Posted (edited)

24 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

She didn't break, and neither did Taln, nor any other Herald.

I think super interesting idea, that idea Chana forming a family screwed with the connection on Roshar, but I'm not convinced of this point. I would say a crucial argument against that is the we know Taln appear on Roshar in a way that (at least to him, judging by his speech giving) was how the herald's reappeared on Roshar normally. 

The Ulim work-around was so dangerous, because it hypothetically allowed for the Voidspren to return without the Heralds  fully circumventing the Oathpact. This should have left Taln stuck on Braize being tortured with no idea that the Desolation has started, and we know he doesn't break. The only logically explanation for how Taln returned, based on what we know about the pact, is that another herald broke, releasing both them and Taln back to Earth.

If that all is true, then Chana managed to hold out for 6+ years. Since if she was working with Odium she would either (a) never broke and kept Taln trapped or (b) broke immediately so they don't waste time with the Ulim nonsense.

But her holding it together for 6 years on Braize is...unlikely...to say the least, considering the hearlds mental state in general and what we've seen of Shallan's mother.

If I had to guess, assuming Chana was on Braize the whole 6 years (which is a seperate conversation, there's some interesting theories about the Davar safe) then I think it's likely that she may have formed some sort of deal with the Voidspren, like "don't torture me, and I'll stay on Braize to keep Taln trapped here" that she later betrayed once the Desolation started. That's why we haven't seen a hint of her, she's hiding from Honor's forces (because she when back to Braize) and Odium's (because she let Taln back).

15 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

unknown reasons

I think it's heavily implied that's is because (A) Thaidakar also has a major interest in moving investiture across boarders which Restates has been working on for possibly millenia and (B) Thaidakar has a good reason to try to look more into cognitive shadows and how to possible avoid going crazy.

I think it's also a possible element that of all the orders, Willshaper is one that Thaidakar fits well into, so it's possible he's targeting the cognitive shadow he thinks he would work best with.

Edited by Could Be Fire
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13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Because Dalinar's body is still near Nergaoul, and is thus able to be influenced.

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Questioner

Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather. Well that would indicate that the same reason he feels the Thrill now still was in existence. Well not-- I mean was still affecting him. Does that make sense? He was in the real world, his body was in the real world. Whatever makes him feel the Thrill was still affecting him. Does that make any sense?

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

If Ishar were there sure he could manipulate the visions, but he wasn't.

So this means Chemoarish or Dai-Gonarthis could have influnenced the visions

53 minutes ago, robardin said:

If Shallan's mother was indeed Chana... That just raises a whole bunch more questions

If Heralds can have children (father or mother), and they've been "civilians" for thousands of years... Shouldn't there be a lot of Heraldic descendants?

Why would Chana have married a relatively minor Veden lighteyes?

But most of all, if this means that she was the one who "broke" on Braize to start this Final Desolation (since we know it wasn't Taln), ... That means Chana is back on Roshar now, and it is possible that Shallan will run into her again? I mean, it would HAVE to happen, right? Why set that scenario up if it wouldn't?

Like the poor girl isn't messed up enough in the head!

Remember that CSs have difficulties making children, being connected to the Ghostblood Lin Davar might have been one of the rare person who knew how.

41 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I haven't read far enough down the thread to see if anyone has suggested this, so apologies if I'm not the first:

I think the Stormfather has been Enlightened (or whatever the word is) by Sja-Anat. Either that, or this is Sja-Anat pretending to the be the Stormfather or something like that. 

Reasons are the things you mentioned, plus the Stormfather looking like Sja-Anat does when the Herald dies. I'll dig up quotes if someone presses, but otherwise the similarities should be clear enough. 

I also think that what the Stormfather doesn't want the Heralds to know/see is this Enlightenment. But that's more speculative obviously.

I doubt Sja is strong enough to Enlighten a Godspren, let alone the SF.

Also, Sja can't be the StromFaker, she can only appear in the PR through reflective surfaces.

 

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Just now, mathiau said:

So this means Chemoarish or Dai-Gonarthis could have influnenced the visions

Could have influenced Gavilar not the visions

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Just now, Frustration said:

Could have influenced Gavilar not the visions

Ah, yes, big nuance. Especially since neither of them should have access to Illumination or Adhesion. (Dai might have Tension but it's quite unsure it would be able to influence visions)

Do you have anything on the Enlighten Truespren possibility? Like, an Enlightened Stormstrider or something

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1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Ah, yes, big nuance. Especially since neither of them should have access to Illumination or Adhesion. (Dai might have Tension but it's quite unsure it would be able to influence visions)

Do you have anything on the Enlighten Truespren possibility? Like, an Enlightened Stormstrider or something

Um.

No I do not.

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12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Could have influenced Gavilar not the visions

Yes, after reading the Prologue to RoW I thought the way Gavilar talked and acted seemed very reminiscent of how Shallan's father acted, and we know that was somehow related to the influence of an Unmade

And there's no reason he couldn't still have been under that influence while also being worked on by... Whoever this StormFaker is (might even make it more likely, if that Unmade, like Nergoul, were "dumb" instead of "intelligent")

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24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

 

I doubt Sja is strong enough to Enlighten a Godspren, let alone the SF.

Also, Sja can't be the StromFaker, she can only appear in the PR through reflective surfaces.

 

This is making some pretty enormous assumptions about what it takes to Enlighten a spren...

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8 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

This is making some pretty enormous assumptions about what it takes to Enlighten a spren...

I'm only assuming you have to have more energy than what you're trying to Enlighten.

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29 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, after reading the Prologue to RoW I thought the way Gavilar talked and acted seemed very reminiscent of how Shallan's father acted, and we know that was somehow related to the influence of an Unmade

And there's no reason he couldn't still have been under that influence while also being worked on by... Whoever this StormFaker is (might even make it more likely, if that Unmade, like Nergoul, were "dumb" instead of "intelligent")

Based on Gavilar's interaction with Dalinar, I think Gavilar was being deliberately hurtful to gaslight her and distract her from his various plots. He seemed pretty determined to keep his various family members out of his business and seemed to home in on their biggest insecurity. For Dalinar, it was Evi. For Navani, it was her own self worth. 

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Based on Gavilar's interaction with Dalinar, I think Gavilar was being deliberately hurtful to gaslight her and distract her from his various plots. He seemed pretty determined to keep his various family members out of his business and seemed to home in on their biggest insecurity. For Dalinar, it was Evi. For Navani, it was her own self worth. 

It could certainly be both. In this prologue, he has flashes of regret over his treatment of Navani, and reasons for wanting Jasnah to match up with Amaram, but when you go back and see what he actually said to them while doing these things - exhibiting a "cold anger", obsessing about his "legacy", demanding that Jasnah "just obey" - it's just like the darker memories Shallan has of her father. Who also would later "come down from it" a bit and be regretful of what happened, but never actually taking responsibility for it, nor thinking about how it should/could go differently in the future.

Edited by robardin
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5 minutes ago, robardin said:

It could certainly be both. In this prologue, he has flashes of regret over his treatment of Navani, and reasons for wanting Jasnah to match up with Amaram, but when you go back and see what he actually said to them while doing these things - exhibiting a "cold anger", obsessing about his "legacy", demanding that Jasnah "just obey" - it's just like the darker memories Shallan has of her father. Who also would later "come down from it" a bit and be regretful of what happened, but never actually taking responsibility for it, nor thinking about how it should/could go differently in the future.

It certainly could be, though I don't think Gavilar was the main target if that is the case. The Unmade that seems interested in the Davar family is more likely than not, Dai-Gonarthis, who feeds on sorrow. I could see him regularly visiting Kholinar to torment Jezrien, and Dalinar was likely an attractive option as well. I could definitely see Gavilar getting some of the periphery effects, I don't think the Unmade was particularly interested in him.

As for Jasnah, I think his actions/words towards her were most in line with what was going on in his head; he really wanted her to marry Amaram. No one gets Jasnah to do something without making a logical case, and Gavilar could not make the case for marrying him without divulging his secrets. However, Gavilar is the only character we've seen that Jasnah doesn't inherently feel superior to. Given that Gavilar couldn't get her to do this through logic, he tried to brute force it using his authority. Though I think he underestimated how unappealing Amaram is, because I don't think that was ever going to work either. Still, he had to try. 

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On 30/03/2022 at 7:04 PM, Pagerunner said:
  • I had something else, but now I can't think of it, so I'll edit it in here after the transcription gets done and I can do some digging. But it was a good one, I promise. EDIT: I got it. It was Ba-Ado-Mishram as a "puzzle piece that doesn't fit," which is exactly how I've felt since RoW. Is Thaidakar interested in her, or was Kalak rambling about Odium or the Stormfather or someone when it came to "someone who could challenge him" or whatever that line was? (Ooooh, this makes me think of Stormfather as a secret villain again, like the first bullet point.)

I think I've guessed why Thaidakar wants Ba-Ado-Mishram. She knows how to manipulate Connection, meaning she might know how to free him from his Connection to Scadrial.It's probably more complicated than that, but it's a thought :)

 

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"“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”
The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.
“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”
So close. And so far."
 
I've been considering these words for a while now because I believe they give one of the greatest hints as to who the "Stormfather" really is (no, I don't believe he's the Stormfather we know).
 
Who do we know who is not necessarily concerned with Journey before destination, etc, but reacts instead to people who coming begging. Who need something with all their heart and passion? Who calculates and is playing the long game, setting things in motion for future pay off? Whose abilities and magic we have almost no information on?
 
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not Ishar who has been manipulating things behind the scenes with Gavilar, but Cultivation herself. I believe that it is she who has set so many of the events we see in motion. Why, if the Chanarach theory is true, would Chana only now (if only now) get married, have children, etc.? Why would the Stone Shamans reject Szeth now? Why would Gavilar be receiving his "visions"? Taravangian his capacity and Lift her abilities? 
 
I don't know what her game is, but I think Cultivation is taking us for a loop here.
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The Stormfaker seems like Ishar. I think he wants someone to swap with so he can avoid going back to Braize. It just seems like something Ishar would do. 

How? I dunno he’s a Bondsmith “Unchained” assuming he got his blade back. 

When this guy panics and doesn’t want “the others” to find out a herald died, recall that Ishar has been lying to Nale, Ash and Kalak about a bunch of stuff including denying that a new desolation has come.

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