LewsTherinTelescope

Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

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15 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I would also like to put forward Nohadon as another potential candidate for the Stormfaker:

1. When Dalinar hears Jansah read The Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral, Dalinar sees unexplained radiant light coming from the sound of the words. Only Dalinar seems to see that light. That is light is never explained in the story and is still a Chekov's Gun. 

2. Dalinar has an unexplained Nohadon vision that the Stormfather does not experience. This proves to us that it is possible to have non-Stormfather visions, and suspiciously, the man behind "find the most important words a man can say" is the central figure of that vision. Dalinar remarks over and over that Nohadon seems more real than people in other visions. 

That has been answered

Spoiler

Jofwu

Dalinar had two really weird visions. Was that Connection-y stuff like he did with Kaladin and Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Which ones are you talking about?

Jofwu

End of Words of Radiance, and in Oathbringer with Nohadon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be the same sort of weirdness that's happening with Tien. Yes, so you have basically multiple different ways of interpreting this. One is just--what Dalinar wants is directly... he is starting to change the visions specifically, and some might argue he is pulling from the Beyond. Others would argue that what Dalinar wants, feels things in his past, he is actually enforcing upon the vision, and is changing and altering the visions. And that is absolutely going on. It's whether the other thing is happening or not, depends on your personal religious beliefs. But Dalinar is starting, the Bondsmithing is starting to shape the visions.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

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Just now, teknopathetic said:

Pattern doesnt actually know what happened here. Pattern wasn't present in the physical realm for this, so Pattern cant really say what happened. Pattern assumed this was the case based on what had happened to Testament. 

Yes, I wasn't talking about what Pattern knew or pretended to know - I was talking about Shallan equating "that Blade was Pattern" and "Pattern is a living spren" with "the Blade vanished to mist". That's not how deadspren Blades "vanish to mist"; they need to be dismissed, even as she does later when summoning the Testamentblade with Tyn.

Just saying it's possible. Re-reading her (presumably now truthful) memory of how she killed Testament in RoW, it isn't clear if that is before or after her father had hastily "put the Shardblade away".

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On 3/31/2022 at 1:39 AM, teknopathetic said:

I am so excited my Shallan killed her mother-herald theory is looking very likely! 

I'm all for it !

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If Shallan's mother was indeed Chana... That just raises a whole bunch more questions

If Heralds can have children (father or mother), and they've been "civilians" for thousands of years... Shouldn't there be a lot of Heraldic descendants?

Why would Chana have married a relatively minor Veden lighteyes?

But most of all, if this means that she was the one who "broke" on Braize to start this Final Desolation (since we know it wasn't Taln), ... That means Chana is back on Roshar now, and it is possible that Shallan will run into her again? I mean, it would HAVE to happen, right? Why set that scenario up if it wouldn't?

Like the poor girl isn't messed up enough in the head!

Edited by robardin
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On 3/30/2022 at 2:04 PM, Pagerunner said:

I'm looking forward to spending some time tonight going through it again in detail. A few thoughts and impressions (aside from the Chana Davar bit):

  • I'm not sure if this Stormfather was really the Stormfather. Obviously, Gavilar's visions and the way the prologue Stormfather talks about Dalinar are points in favor of it being the true Stormfather. On the other hand, there are some notable differences with how he's manifesting: as an individual, and the distinctly Shard-like infinity sensation I seem to recall at the end. (That's one of the lines I want to get the exact wording.) I don't see it being Odium or another Herald manipulating Gavilar; I think, if this isn't the Stormfather, it's something very close to the Stormfather. A remnant of Honor, somehow; there's another line about "choosing to" vs "being commanded to" that make me think it's Tanavast pretending to be the Stormfather. But if it is the real Stormfather, his mission of choosing a new Herald (and then lying about stuff) and his active lying to Gavilar also throw a lot of his later interactions with Dalinar into question.

EDIT2: Here are some longer thoughts on my first and last bullet points, with the actual quotes.

 

I haven't read far enough down the thread to see if anyone has suggested this, so apologies if I'm not the first:

I think the Stormfather has been Enlightened (or whatever the word is) by Sja-Anat. Either that, or this is Sja-Anat pretending to the be the Stormfather or something like that. 

Reasons are the things you mentioned, plus the Stormfather looking like Sja-Anat does when the Herald dies. I'll dig up quotes if someone presses, but otherwise the similarities should be clear enough. 

I also think that what the Stormfather doesn't want the Heralds to know/see is this Enlightenment. But that's more speculative obviously.

 

Edited by coolsnow7
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On 3/30/2022 at 1:48 PM, Serack said:

I don’t think the 2 have to be mutually exclusive.  The everstorm probably was enough, but Chararch might have greased the skids

I think this is strongly correct. 

Emphasis on what Thaidakar said (paraphrasing): "we didn't really do much. This was probably going to happen without our efforts."

True for his efforts, but also for Chanarach breaking the Oathpact, and maybe even true of the Everstorm. We've seen Shards - specifically, Ruin - line events up extremely precisely, exactly along these lines. No one should be surprised when an event that seems like it was a happy accident (for Odium) turns out to be him lining things up to coincide with his best opportunity at freedom.

Ultimately we don't know what killed Honor. And that is going to be much, much more consequential for any of this than these random contingencies. 

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7 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I think this is strongly correct. 

Emphasis on what Thaidakar said (paraphrasing): "we didn't really do much. This was probably going to happen without our efforts."

True for his efforts, but also for Chanarach breaking the Oathpact, and maybe even true of the Everstorm. We've seen Shards - specifically, Ruin - line events up extremely precisely, exactly along these lines. No one should be surprised when an event that seems like it was a happy accident (for Odium) turns out to be him lining things up to coincide with his best opportunity at freedom.

Ultimately we don't know what killed Honor. And that is going to be much, much more consequential for any of this than these random contingencies. 

This is my favourite Desolation theory:

  • Chanarach is Shallan's mother and the Herald who died during the Prologue but:
  • She didn't break, and neither did Taln, nor any other Herald.

This is based mostly on the fact that the True Desolation isn't going down like the others. Ulim's plan with the Everstorm did precisely what was intended, is sufficient on its own to cause this Desolation, and most importantly didn't require a Herald to die and break.

They use the Everstorm to circumvent the Oathpact. The Everstorm had been building for "centuries" in the Cognitive Realm. On top of that, Nale outright says that a Connection to Braize would be necessary to open a bridge there. What's on Braize that has a Connection to something on Roshar? Well, Taln is connected to the other Heralds, and Ash particularly.

I think that's the connection that allowed the Everstorm to leak out in the first place. Maybe all 4,500 years, maybe after something messed with the Oathpact after Ba-Ado-Mishram, maybe just recently.

So what did Chanarach dying change? She's the only Herald we know of to have a non-Herald family. I think her connection to the Davars blew the bridge to Braize wide open, allowing Ulim to accelerate his plans and bring more voidspren through. Furthermore, I think the Connection is more than just a deep familial bond - I would guess some magical shenanigans to help stave off the madness, which might explain why all the Davar family are so thoroughly messed up. 

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That Prologue was a lot to digest, so I’ve gone through it and tried to pull out the relevant things that various characters do, say and think.

Gavilar:

  • Believes the Stormfather is guiding him towards Words that, if he finds them, will make him into a Herald.
  • Believes the current Heralds are all on Braize, being tortured, per the Oathpact.
  • Knows that a Return is coming, and thinks this will be the opportunity for him to replace one of the Heralds.
  • The Stormfather has implied there’s only room for one new Herald.
  • Believes that his experimental Light will be a good weapon against the Voidbringers, and thinks he may even be able to use it to control them. Understands that fighting without the new Light would be a huge problem.
  • Does not recognise Szeth’s Honorblade, doesn’t connect Szeth’s abilities to either the Honorblades or Radiant powers.

The Stormfather:

  • Does not correct the things Gavilar thinks about the Heralds, presumably implied a lot of it, or lied outright.
  • Talks about Gavilar becoming a ‘... Herald’, but hesitates.
  • Encourages Gavilar to read Way of Kings and find the Words.
  • Told Gavilar that spren can’t lie.
  • Asks probing questions about how Gavilar will handle immortality.
  • Has grown increasingly ‘suspicious and hostile’ (according to Gavilar).
  • Refuses to reveal information about the causes of the Recreance, is very cagey about Knights Radiant in general.
  • Talks about being instructed by Honor to show someone the visions to ‘prevent calamity’, but also refers to choosing to do this. Does not explain the discrepancy.
  • Panics when a Herald dies, says he isn’t ‘ready’.
  • Gives up on Gavilar when Gavilar reveals his plan to trigger endless Returns. 
  • Calls his efforts with Gavilar a ‘miscalculation’, blames both himself and Gavilar, says he will never trust Gavilar’s family again. If he tries showing the visions again, he will approach it differently.

Thaidakar:

  • Wants to get hold of Restares (unknown reasons, but Restares thinks Thaidakar wants to find Ba Ado Mishram).
  • Promised Gavilar a ‘return of ancient powers’. (Probably a false promise?)

Restares:

  • Wants the ‘honor of men’ to return.
  • Does not want the Radiants to return.
  • Is afraid of another Voidbringer Return if the Radiants come back. (Possibly got this idea from Nale?)
  • My interpretation: Restares wants people to start speaking and living by the Ideals again, but without the associated spren bonds and powers.

Some of my thoughts and theories:

  • Gavilar definitely makes a lot of assumptions, and the Stormfather could have used this to pull a ‘nothing I said was technically untrue’ trick. However, he does reference Gavilar becoming a Herald plainly, and ties this to Gavilar speaking the Words. There’s no doubt that the Stormfather is lying here.
  • The Stormfather has emphasised the importance of The Way of Kings, which is essentially an introductory textbook to the philosophy of the First Ideal and Bondsmithing. He’s trying to get Gavilar to bond him, but has been untruthful with Gavilar about what that will achieve. He has also told Gavilar that he (the Stormfather) is unable to lie. He seems to be setting up Gavilar to be a Bondsmith who is manipulated and controlled by the Stormfather.
  • So, what is the Stormfather’s end goal here? What was he planning on doing with Gavilar? I think the Stormfather genuinely planned to have Gavilar become a new Herald. As a Bondsmith, and with the Stormfather’s approval, Gavilar would have had the power to alter the Oathpact and insert himself into it. This is what the Stormfather was preparing him for, and the reason for the concern over what Gavilar would do once he became a Herald.
  • And why is the Stormfather lying and withholding so much information? He wants to prevent the return of the Knights Radiant. He still blames the Radiants for what happened during the Recreance, and he doesn’t want a similar calamity to happen again. He keeps all relevant information to himself, so that Gavilar can’t use it to found a new order of Knights Radiant. That’s why he needs Gavilar to think that saying the Words will turn him into a Herald. If the Stormfather guides Gavilar through the intermediary steps, Gavilar never needs to know.
  • And why would the Stormfather want a new Herald? Because the Oathpact is the solution that Honor came up with, and the Stormfather is, in large part, what is left of Honor. He doesn’t truly understand why the Oathpact can’t work in the long term. He only understands that his Heralds broke. What do you do when your Heralds break? You get new ones. 

Wow, this got longer than I intended! I hope somebody finds it useful or interesting.

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24 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

She didn't break, and neither did Taln, nor any other Herald.

I think super interesting idea, that idea Chana forming a family screwed with the connection on Roshar, but I'm not convinced of this point. I would say a crucial argument against that is the we know Taln appear on Roshar in a way that (at least to him, judging by his speech giving) was how the herald's reappeared on Roshar normally. 

The Ulim work-around was so dangerous, because it hypothetically allowed for the Voidspren to return without the Heralds  fully circumventing the Oathpact. This should have left Taln stuck on Braize being tortured with no idea that the Desolation has started, and we know he doesn't break. The only logically explanation for how Taln returned, based on what we know about the pact, is that another herald broke, releasing both them and Taln back to Earth.

If that all is true, then Chana managed to hold out for 6+ years. Since if she was working with Odium she would either (a) never broke and kept Taln trapped or (b) broke immediately so they don't waste time with the Ulim nonsense.

But her holding it together for 6 years on Braize is...unlikely...to say the least, considering the hearlds mental state in general and what we've seen of Shallan's mother.

If I had to guess, assuming Chana was on Braize the whole 6 years (which is a seperate conversation, there's some interesting theories about the Davar safe) then I think it's likely that she may have formed some sort of deal with the Voidspren, like "don't torture me, and I'll stay on Braize to keep Taln trapped here" that she later betrayed once the Desolation started. That's why we haven't seen a hint of her, she's hiding from Honor's forces (because she when back to Braize) and Odium's (because she let Taln back).

15 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

unknown reasons

I think it's heavily implied that's is because (A) Thaidakar also has a major interest in moving investiture across boarders which Restates has been working on for possibly millenia and (B) Thaidakar has a good reason to try to look more into cognitive shadows and how to possible avoid going crazy.

I think it's also a possible element that of all the orders, Willshaper is one that Thaidakar fits well into, so it's possible he's targeting the cognitive shadow he thinks he would work best with.

Edited by Could Be Fire
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13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Because Dalinar's body is still near Nergaoul, and is thus able to be influenced.

  Hide contents

Questioner

Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather. Well that would indicate that the same reason he feels the Thrill now still was in existence. Well not-- I mean was still affecting him. Does that make sense? He was in the real world, his body was in the real world. Whatever makes him feel the Thrill was still affecting him. Does that make any sense?

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

If Ishar were there sure he could manipulate the visions, but he wasn't.

So this means Chemoarish or Dai-Gonarthis could have influnenced the visions

53 minutes ago, robardin said:

If Shallan's mother was indeed Chana... That just raises a whole bunch more questions

If Heralds can have children (father or mother), and they've been "civilians" for thousands of years... Shouldn't there be a lot of Heraldic descendants?

Why would Chana have married a relatively minor Veden lighteyes?

But most of all, if this means that she was the one who "broke" on Braize to start this Final Desolation (since we know it wasn't Taln), ... That means Chana is back on Roshar now, and it is possible that Shallan will run into her again? I mean, it would HAVE to happen, right? Why set that scenario up if it wouldn't?

Like the poor girl isn't messed up enough in the head!

Remember that CSs have difficulties making children, being connected to the Ghostblood Lin Davar might have been one of the rare person who knew how.

41 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I haven't read far enough down the thread to see if anyone has suggested this, so apologies if I'm not the first:

I think the Stormfather has been Enlightened (or whatever the word is) by Sja-Anat. Either that, or this is Sja-Anat pretending to the be the Stormfather or something like that. 

Reasons are the things you mentioned, plus the Stormfather looking like Sja-Anat does when the Herald dies. I'll dig up quotes if someone presses, but otherwise the similarities should be clear enough. 

I also think that what the Stormfather doesn't want the Heralds to know/see is this Enlightenment. But that's more speculative obviously.

I doubt Sja is strong enough to Enlighten a Godspren, let alone the SF.

Also, Sja can't be the StromFaker, she can only appear in the PR through reflective surfaces.

 

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Just now, mathiau said:

So this means Chemoarish or Dai-Gonarthis could have influnenced the visions

Could have influenced Gavilar not the visions

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Just now, Frustration said:

Could have influenced Gavilar not the visions

Ah, yes, big nuance. Especially since neither of them should have access to Illumination or Adhesion. (Dai might have Tension but it's quite unsure it would be able to influence visions)

Do you have anything on the Enlighten Truespren possibility? Like, an Enlightened Stormstrider or something

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1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Ah, yes, big nuance. Especially since neither of them should have access to Illumination or Adhesion. (Dai might have Tension but it's quite unsure it would be able to influence visions)

Do you have anything on the Enlighten Truespren possibility? Like, an Enlightened Stormstrider or something

Um.

No I do not.

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12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Could have influenced Gavilar not the visions

Yes, after reading the Prologue to RoW I thought the way Gavilar talked and acted seemed very reminiscent of how Shallan's father acted, and we know that was somehow related to the influence of an Unmade

And there's no reason he couldn't still have been under that influence while also being worked on by... Whoever this StormFaker is (might even make it more likely, if that Unmade, like Nergoul, were "dumb" instead of "intelligent")

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24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

 

I doubt Sja is strong enough to Enlighten a Godspren, let alone the SF.

Also, Sja can't be the StromFaker, she can only appear in the PR through reflective surfaces.

 

This is making some pretty enormous assumptions about what it takes to Enlighten a spren...

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8 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

This is making some pretty enormous assumptions about what it takes to Enlighten a spren...

I'm only assuming you have to have more energy than what you're trying to Enlighten.

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29 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, after reading the Prologue to RoW I thought the way Gavilar talked and acted seemed very reminiscent of how Shallan's father acted, and we know that was somehow related to the influence of an Unmade

And there's no reason he couldn't still have been under that influence while also being worked on by... Whoever this StormFaker is (might even make it more likely, if that Unmade, like Nergoul, were "dumb" instead of "intelligent")

Based on Gavilar's interaction with Dalinar, I think Gavilar was being deliberately hurtful to gaslight her and distract her from his various plots. He seemed pretty determined to keep his various family members out of his business and seemed to home in on their biggest insecurity. For Dalinar, it was Evi. For Navani, it was her own self worth. 

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5 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Based on Gavilar's interaction with Dalinar, I think Gavilar was being deliberately hurtful to gaslight her and distract her from his various plots. He seemed pretty determined to keep his various family members out of his business and seemed to home in on their biggest insecurity. For Dalinar, it was Evi. For Navani, it was her own self worth. 

It could certainly be both. In this prologue, he has flashes of regret over his treatment of Navani, and reasons for wanting Jasnah to match up with Amaram, but when you go back and see what he actually said to them while doing these things - exhibiting a "cold anger", obsessing about his "legacy", demanding that Jasnah "just obey" - it's just like the darker memories Shallan has of her father. Who also would later "come down from it" a bit and be regretful of what happened, but never actually taking responsibility for it, nor thinking about how it should/could go differently in the future.

Edited by robardin
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5 minutes ago, robardin said:

It could certainly be both. In this prologue, he has flashes of regret over his treatment of Navani, and reasons for wanting Jasnah to match up with Amaram, but when you go back and see what he actually said to them while doing these things - exhibiting a "cold anger", obsessing about his "legacy", demanding that Jasnah "just obey" - it's just like the darker memories Shallan has of her father. Who also would later "come down from it" a bit and be regretful of what happened, but never actually taking responsibility for it, nor thinking about how it should/could go differently in the future.

It certainly could be, though I don't think Gavilar was the main target if that is the case. The Unmade that seems interested in the Davar family is more likely than not, Dai-Gonarthis, who feeds on sorrow. I could see him regularly visiting Kholinar to torment Jezrien, and Dalinar was likely an attractive option as well. I could definitely see Gavilar getting some of the periphery effects, I don't think the Unmade was particularly interested in him.

As for Jasnah, I think his actions/words towards her were most in line with what was going on in his head; he really wanted her to marry Amaram. No one gets Jasnah to do something without making a logical case, and Gavilar could not make the case for marrying him without divulging his secrets. However, Gavilar is the only character we've seen that Jasnah doesn't inherently feel superior to. Given that Gavilar couldn't get her to do this through logic, he tried to brute force it using his authority. Though I think he underestimated how unappealing Amaram is, because I don't think that was ever going to work either. Still, he had to try. 

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On 30/03/2022 at 7:04 PM, Pagerunner said:
  • I had something else, but now I can't think of it, so I'll edit it in here after the transcription gets done and I can do some digging. But it was a good one, I promise. EDIT: I got it. It was Ba-Ado-Mishram as a "puzzle piece that doesn't fit," which is exactly how I've felt since RoW. Is Thaidakar interested in her, or was Kalak rambling about Odium or the Stormfather or someone when it came to "someone who could challenge him" or whatever that line was? (Ooooh, this makes me think of Stormfather as a secret villain again, like the first bullet point.)

I think I've guessed why Thaidakar wants Ba-Ado-Mishram. She knows how to manipulate Connection, meaning she might know how to free him from his Connection to Scadrial.It's probably more complicated than that, but it's a thought :)

 

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"“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”
The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.
“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”
So close. And so far."
 
I've been considering these words for a while now because I believe they give one of the greatest hints as to who the "Stormfather" really is (no, I don't believe he's the Stormfather we know).
 
Who do we know who is not necessarily concerned with Journey before destination, etc, but reacts instead to people who coming begging. Who need something with all their heart and passion? Who calculates and is playing the long game, setting things in motion for future pay off? Whose abilities and magic we have almost no information on?
 
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not Ishar who has been manipulating things behind the scenes with Gavilar, but Cultivation herself. I believe that it is she who has set so many of the events we see in motion. Why, if the Chanarach theory is true, would Chana only now (if only now) get married, have children, etc.? Why would the Stone Shamans reject Szeth now? Why would Gavilar be receiving his "visions"? Taravangian his capacity and Lift her abilities? 
 
I don't know what her game is, but I think Cultivation is taking us for a loop here.
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The Stormfaker seems like Ishar. I think he wants someone to swap with so he can avoid going back to Braize. It just seems like something Ishar would do. 

How? I dunno he’s a Bondsmith “Unchained” assuming he got his blade back. 

When this guy panics and doesn’t want “the others” to find out a herald died, recall that Ishar has been lying to Nale, Ash and Kalak about a bunch of stuff including denying that a new desolation has come.

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4 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Some of my thoughts and theories:

  • Gavilar definitely makes a lot of assumptions, and the Stormfather could have used this to pull a ‘nothing I said was technically untrue’ trick. However, he does reference Gavilar becoming a Herald plainly, and ties this to Gavilar speaking the Words. There’s no doubt that the Stormfather is lying here.
  • The Stormfather has emphasised the importance of The Way of Kings, which is essentially an introductory textbook to the philosophy of the First Ideal and Bondsmithing. He’s trying to get Gavilar to bond him, but has been untruthful with Gavilar about what that will achieve. He has also told Gavilar that he (the Stormfather) is unable to lie. He seems to be setting up Gavilar to be a Bondsmith who is manipulated and controlled by the Stormfather.
  • So, what is the Stormfather’s end goal here? What was he planning on doing with Gavilar? I think the Stormfather genuinely planned to have Gavilar become a new Herald. As a Bondsmith, and with the Stormfather’s approval, Gavilar would have had the power to alter the Oathpact and insert himself into it. This is what the Stormfather was preparing him for, and the reason for the concern over what Gavilar would do once he became a Herald.
  • And why is the Stormfather lying and withholding so much information? He wants to prevent the return of the Knights Radiant. He still blames the Radiants for what happened during the Recreance, and he doesn’t want a similar calamity to happen again. He keeps all relevant information to himself, so that Gavilar can’t use it to found a new order of Knights Radiant. That’s why he needs Gavilar to think that saying the Words will turn him into a Herald. If the Stormfather guides Gavilar through the intermediary steps, Gavilar never needs to know.
  • And why would the Stormfather want a new Herald? Because the Oathpact is the solution that Honor came up with, and the Stormfather is, in large part, what is left of Honor. He doesn’t truly understand why the Oathpact can’t work in the long term. He only understands that his Heralds broke. What do you do when your Heralds break? You get new ones.

This is what I am thinking too. 
While I do think there could be conflict of thought with Tanavast's (Crazy) cognitive Shadow having merged with him, which could without a connection/bond to someone have been causing more erratic behavior and identity crisis. I do think it is the Stormfather. 
We know that he is bound to show the visions, but with Dalinar he is reluctant, and outright hostile towards the idea of bonding. 
I am not convinced The Stormfather ever told Gavilar he could become a herald, but that is what Gavilar assumed, and it is like this was the Stromfather attempting to find a way to continue the oathpact without putting spren in danger.  
We see with Dalinar that it is a begrudging acceptance and Dalinar is pushing him each step of the way. Where With Gavilar from what little we get, The Stormfather is trying to push him in a specific direction, without really understanding people, and then realizes he made a mistake, and that Gavilar didn't understand at all what was needed.  
We also know he was not yet bonded with Gavilar, or even that Gavilar could use stormlight, so the effect of better understanding we see the Stormfather go through later with Dalinar, and the return of Syl, has not happened. 

 
 

Edited by FollowYourMuse
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45 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Stormfaker seems like Ishar. I think he wants someone to swap with so he can avoid going back to Braize. It just seems like something Ishar would do. 

How? I dunno he’s a Bondsmith “Unchained” assuming he got his blade back. 

When this guy panics and doesn’t want “the others” to find out a herald died, recall that Ishar has been lying to Nale, Ash and Kalak about a bunch of stuff including denying that a new desolation has come.

I agree. The "voice" doesn't seem to desire anything remotely connected to what Dalinar's Stormfather wants. The Stormfather we see in WoR even seems to have given up and tries smashing the two storms together to give humans a quick death. Everything the Voice wants is exactly what a Herald might want and not what the Dalinar Stormfather has ever shown the slightest bit of interest in achieving. 

If we assume these are the same Stormfathers, then we have to assume that the Stormfather changed every single one of his goals, changed his personality, changed his personal interaction style, and changed his willingness to share information all so he could deal with Dalinar differently for very furtive reasons? And he does so even after saying to a dying Gavilar that the voice will never rely on a Kholin again? But then he does, because why not?

And then what about Syl? Surely she would have had enough interactions with the Stormfather to have said "Man, the Stormfather sure is weird these days", but she doesn't see anything off with how Dalinar and the Stormfather are interacting. Some readers are saying the Stormfather has changed recently, but Syl would have noticed that for sure. We also see the Stormfather and Kal, and those interactions also defy what Gavilar experiences. I just think it is too much work to believe Gavilar's Stormfather is legit, because then we have to assume the Modern Stormfather has been putting on a persona for years all to trick Dalinar into ... what? Not dying in the Everstorm and making progress on becoming a Herald? That just does not match at all. 

I am not willing to believe that Syl would be cool with Gavilar's Stormfather. Syl would 100% ring the imposter-alarm. And if the Stormfather had gone through some traumatic personality grafting, then Syl would have noticed and said something by now. And if people are saying that the Stormfather is deceiving even Syl, then something is very very very troubling about the Stormfather overall. And I would be cool with that. The Stormfather being a villian would be intense, but I dont think this is the logical consequence people mean when they say Gavilar's Stormfather is the real Stormfather. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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I was talking with friends, and something that could go for the cultivation being SF theory. We were wondering how Cultivation/Night watched would have access to the visions in the first place, but then realized that Lift has been able to get into visions, likely through Cultivation. And even if this isn't cultivation, I think it's very unlikely to be the SF because of how different he is from everything we have seen. 

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