LewsTherinTelescope

Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

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Apologies if I’m repeating someone, but I seem to recall someone arguing that the “Ishar is the StormFaker” theory is problematic because it would be difficult/impossible/implausible for Ishar to influence the visions sent by the StormFather to Gavilar. On the other hand, we have seen Nergaoul influence Dalinar in TWoK during the vision where he fights the midnight essence (Dalinar feels the thrill and there are WoBs indicating this was not just part of the vision itself). If a mindless Unmade can screw around with Dalinar during the visions, why couldn’t Ishar pull off something far more elaborate?

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40 minutes ago, Skybroker said:

Apologies if I’m repeating someone, but I seem to recall someone arguing that the “Ishar is the StormFaker” theory is problematic because it would be difficult/impossible/implausible for Ishar to influence the visions sent by the StormFather to Gavilar. On the other hand, we have seen Nergaoul influence Dalinar in TWoK during the vision where he fights the midnight essence (Dalinar feels the thrill and there are WoBs indicating this was not just part of the vision itself). If a mindless Unmade can screw around with Dalinar during the visions, why couldn’t Ishar pull off something far more elaborate?

Because Dalinar's body is still near Nergaoul, and is thus able to be influenced.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather. Well that would indicate that the same reason he feels the Thrill now still was in existence. Well not-- I mean was still affecting him. Does that make sense? He was in the real world, his body was in the real world. Whatever makes him feel the Thrill was still affecting him. Does that make any sense?

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

If Ishar were there sure he could manipulate the visions, but he wasn't.

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I'm still flipflopping on Stormfaker idea, in some scenes the "Stormfather" seems to have aspects that are reminiscent of the Stormfather we have gotten to know. However, there are a lot of scenes where the personality is too different for me to reconcile. Maybe the Stormfather is pulling a Shallan and is having an identity crises.

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On 3/30/2022 at 4:08 PM, Bzhydack said:

Yep, this. And if im not mistaken, Stormfather wasnt affected by Jezrien's death. Other heralds, on the other hand, will indeed feel this. The whole aperance of "Stormfather" is awfully similar to what Thaidakar did with the Seon.

Also, Stormfather never want to replace Heralds and set new Oathpact. But Jezrien indeed wants do exactly this. Is possible that Stormfather is giving visions, but Ishar is hacking to this Connection. First I thoght that this can be Unmade (more specificly, Dai-Ghonarthis) but indeed, Ishar seems to be better candidate.

This has me leaning to some combo of ishar providing the power for jezrien to impersonate the stormfather. He's in kholinar at the time as the beggar, frequently outside the palace even. Jezrien is mistaken as the stormfather after all in myth sometimes right

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On 3/30/2022 at 5:12 PM, Bzhydack said:

It can first influence just few people, is actually very possible that started Influencing people with Honorblades, as they are most dangerous and maybe even have ability to resist, then Stoneshamans, and then rest. This can take few years.

Also, why assume Ishar was using his Honorblade? He could use other magic, maybe Fabrial, or even offworld magic.

Wasn't ishar some kind of bondsmith on ashyn before getting an honor blade? He started the problems on ashyn by binding surges right? 

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Other reason that the stormather is giving more information to Gavilar then to Dalinar might be his comment on not trusting the Kholins any longer.  It does raise the question of why spren are attracted to Kholins in the first place but that is a separate issue.

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41 minutes ago, Karger said:

It does raise the question of why spren are attracted to Kholins in the first place but that is a separate issue.

The Hemalurgy table implies destiny might actually be a thing in the Cosmere...it's a stretch but maybe the Kholins are quite literally destined for greatness 

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I'm still gathering my thoughts regarding this prologue.  I'm going to have to reread it a few times.  But my initial impression of the Stormfather was that yes, he was completely different than what we've seen in the other 4 books.  My first thought was that he was trying a different approach with Gavilar than with Dalinar.  That he was trying to prevent another return by restoring the Oathpact and hopefully using Gavilar by baiting him with false promises.  But by the end, when Gavilar dropped that he intended to allow the returns to go non-stop made me question that, especially considering how the SF nonchalantly reacted.

 

Overall, I'm still iffy about what the "SF" was trying to get out of Gavilar.  Was it more info about Heralds, by baiting him with immortality?  Was it a legitimate attempt to try to get another person to swear to the oathpact?  Was it trying to force the actual Stormfather into a Radiant bond by "tricking" Gavilar into swearing Radiant oaths?  I'm not sure what the purpose of baiting Gavilar into searching for "Herald" oaths was supposed to accomplish.  Or was it all 1 big con by voidspren to push for an earlier return or Thaidakar to get more Herald info?  

 

Also, it looks like Gavilar might have discovered a scary easy way to generate anti-light using aluminum boxes and Shadesmar, unless I am misreading that section.  

Edited by Kitch
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@Kitch I have to agree that at first, I also thought that SF is merely following a different approach with Dalinar to how he had done things with Gavilar.

But the differences are too big, too many to the point that SF sounds like a different person entirely. Unless it really is a Tanavast CS vs SF scenario, which also may be possible, It is most likely either a Herald Stormfaker, or an unmade or even a Voidspren like Ulim.

Also to be noted that Ulim offered to make Venli a Queen, give her forms of power etc to get her to do what they needed her to do in order to hasten the Desolation. It is remarkably similar to how this Stormfaker is offering Gav immortality. May be it was a long con that an unmade or a voidspren was pulling on Gav just like the one that was pulled on Venli.

Both Venli and Gav ended up bringing voidspren and voidlight from that storm in the Cognitive Realm under their respective influences. Too big a coincidence, dont you think.

 

15 minutes ago, Kitch said:

Also, it looks like Gavilar might have discovered a scary easy way to generate anti-light using aluminum boxes and Shadesmar, unless I am misreading that section.

I dont think that all the gemstones that he had contained Anti Void-light, I think it was only in the one that Szeth took, the rest were simple Void light.

Did he really get the anti light from the shadesmar storm? even if he did, i think the chances of getting anti light that way is far less as to that of getting void light. Making it a very impractical way.   

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10 hours ago, robardin said:

Especially one who'd never summoned a Blade before. That was the first time, right? Even a Herald might not recognize which Ideal Shallan had reached, just recognized her using Illumination.

Also maybe she was just out of practice. It was like she was fighting in a wars inbetween raising kids. 

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I've flip flopped on the StormFaker theories for the last while, but I think I've managed to solidify my opinions.

I doubt its Ishar, because the Stormfather would absolutely notice Ishar hijacking his bond and if Ishar could do this to Gavilar, he probably would have done this to Dalinar as well and he did not. It seems. Probably.

If its just the Stormfather, I'll accept it but be a little confused. He'd have to have been lying to Dalinar quite a bit which could make some cool conflict in Book 5, but it would mean his opinions about the Recreance have somehow changed in 6 years and I doubt that greatly. The SF going from being very open to Gavilar to very reserved with Dalinar makes total sense to me, but that's not the issue for me, its more about him saying "lies" and that bit toward the end with him detecting the death of a Herald.

There's no way its Odium. Its not Rayse's style.

Cultivation is not someone I had considered until it was mentioned recently and I could see it. It would mean she far more active than I had previously assumed with the Heralds and Oathpact, which wouldn't be bad.

Tanavast's Shadow is the theory I agree with most. We know that the SF and Honor's Cognitive Shadow were combined and that towards the end Honor was far more about fulfilling the letter of oaths no matter what. That would explain his "It was necessary" attitude towards BAM and the Recreance, it would explain why he sensed the death of a Herald, it would explain "lying" to Gavilar to try and get him to fix the Oathpact. And given his phrasing towards the end, it seems like the Tanavast aspect of the SF's personality was diminished after the death of a Herald leaving him more of a storm.

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4 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

I've flip flopped on the StormFaker theories for the last while, but I think I've managed to solidify my opinions.

I doubt its Ishar, because the Stormfather would absolutely notice Ishar hijacking his bond and if Ishar could do this to Gavilar, he probably would have done this to Dalinar as well and he did not. It seems. Probably.

If its just the Stormfather, I'll accept it but be a little confused. He'd have to have been lying to Dalinar quite a bit which could make some cool conflict in Book 5, but it would mean his opinions about the Recreance have somehow changed in 6 years and I doubt that greatly. The SF going from being very open to Gavilar to very reserved with Dalinar makes total sense to me, but that's not the issue for me, its more about him saying "lies" and that bit toward the end with him detecting the death of a Herald.

There's no way its Odium. Its not Rayse's style.

Cultivation is not someone I had considered until it was mentioned recently and I could see it. It would mean she far more active than I had previously assumed with the Heralds and Oathpact, which wouldn't be bad.

Tanavast's Shadow is the theory I agree with most. We know that the SF and Honor's Cognitive Shadow were combined and that towards the end Honor was far more about fulfilling the letter of oaths no matter what. That would explain his "It was necessary" attitude towards BAM and the Recreance, it would explain why he sensed the death of a Herald, it would explain "lying" to Gavilar to try and get him to fix the Oathpact. And given his phrasing towards the end, it seems like the Tanavast aspect of the SF's personality was diminished after the death of a Herald leaving him more of a storm.

Brandon is pretty good about retaining “voices” - a style of mode of speech - when people are talking (or writing!) in a way not known to the reader. For example, it’s easy to spot Sazed from Mistborn speaking/writing in chapter headings once you realize that’s a possibility.

At the end of this SA5 Prologue, once the “real” Stormfather emerges and speaks in smallcaps to Dalinar (I see this is not reflected in the text transcribed to the Arcanum though; in the newsletter it looked like thiis — this is the only time it’s different, everything Gavilar has been thinking was the SF until then was in italics, plus the last words as he lay dying…)

The smallcaps “Stormfather” reads/sound like the arrogant, yet fatalistic, SF we see interacting with Kaladin and Dalinar in the first two books. Implying all the other SF words to Gavilar, and the shimmering, etc., were NOT the Stormfather.

Or, of course, it could be that Cultivation could show him the Honorvisions all on her own, and the Stormfather (as we see later) never talked to Gavilar at all, except for the fact that we'd had numerous WoBs over the years that Dalinar was not the first person the SF had "investigated" per Honor's last commands, and that Gavilar had seen the visions. (While leaving out the specific detail that that meant it was the Stormfather who'd showed Gavilar those visions... Hmm!)

If you go and read the earlier italicized parts, then, as well as the last parting words, it obviously is not Rayse (as you noted). Well, does it read/sound like to you what we’ve seen from Tezim (Crazy Ishar)? Tanavast, as we see in the real visions that Dalinar later experiences (and who never talks back)?

Why suppose he has a “Shadow” separate from the Splintered part of him that attached to the Stormfather? Even granting that possibility, are the words and actions - lying to Gavilar, disguising himself as another, etc., - are those the actions of Honor? But we’ve seen Cultivation is extremely canny, crafty, and subtle in manipulation…

Now go back and read the one time we see Cultivation present herself, when Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher in Oathbringer. Sounds pretty close, eh? Except for cloaking herself in italics the way a spren speaking mentally to a person would (ironically, not the way the Stormfather usually would, though he’s capable of both “godspeak” and “sprenspeak”)?

36C1CD96-DA58-4585-B3A7-CB9AE849469F.thumb.jpeg.bb89797c6b1b14c925c78125acd5b98b.jpeg

Edited by robardin
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8 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

This has me leaning to some combo of ishar providing the power for jezrien to impersonate the stormfather. He's in kholinar at the time as the beggar, frequently outside the palace even. Jezrien is mistaken as the stormfather after all in myth sometimes right

Jezrien is drink almost all the time, and when he isn't he's babbling about being tortured.

7 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Wasn't ishar some kind of bondsmith on ashyn before getting an honor blade? He started the problems on ashyn by binding surges right? 

Ashyn magic is powered by diseases, which are not on Roshar right now.

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

The Hemalurgy table implies destiny might actually be a thing in the Cosmere...it's a stretch but maybe the Kholins are quite literally destined for greatness 

Actually it's just how spren bonds work, once one person is bonded it becomes easier to bond people close to them.

Spoiler

Soni

Is there a reason for why so many early Radiants were family? Including theorized ones, we have Tien and Kaladin, Jasnah and Elhokar, Dalinar and Renarin, Shallan and Helaran...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, so I can give you the "how the sausage is made," I call this the narrative reason vs the in-world reason. I can give you both.

In-world reasoning is that, when these bonds are forming, these human beings have bonds to other people, and that naturally leads the spren along those bonds. When Kaladin is forming a bond with a windspren [honorspren], and windspren [honorspren] start looking, or even other sapient spren start looking for people, they're going to notice. Remember, they're coming into the Physical Realm, it's very hard for them. They're doing this partially from the Cognitive Realm, searching and trying to get pulled through by the attention and the bond that is forming. They're naturally led to other people who are related. You could even say that, because of Tien, Syl found Kaladin.

I built this in for a narrative reason, and the narrative reason is: we generally are going to want to have a larger than average number of people among the core characters, who are involved in the magic system, and involved in the narrative. Because the magic system is so important in my books, I knew that I was gonna have a lot of friends and family of main characters end up with spren bonds.

But I don't think this is unusual. In fact, I think this is more true to life. It's not one of those coincidences we make up for a book; it's one of those coincidences that happens in life that seems unusual. It seems unusual if you look at it and say, "There are five people who became full-time in the publishing industry during the year Brandon was a senior at BYU. And they are all friends; in fact, they were all friends before they got published." This seems unusual; like, why didn't anyone else? There is nobody else that I know that broke in into the industry from that year. Maybe it happened, but nobody I knew who wasn't in our immediate friend group. Well, this is not that surprising if you actually look at it, because when one person breaks in, it becomes so much easier for everyone else that knew that person. Not just for networking reasons. (Networking reasons: obvious). The other obvious one is: the people are gonna know each other because they're all gonna be moving in the same circles, looking for each other without knowing it. They're gonna be looking for other good writers, and they're gonna be making connections with them. They're gonna notice when people ask questions in a class that are the right kinds of questions to be asking about getting published.

But even beyond those two things, once I broke in, Dan Wells has said before he realized, "Brandon did this; this is real. He actually did this. I can do this." And indeed, he went and broke in. Once this thing that seems impossible, whether it's becoming a full time novelist, or forming a spren bond and becoming a Knight Radiant; once you've seen somebody do it, it becomes way easier for you to conceive of yourself doing it. This is why C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien were in the same writing group. This is why you see this sort of thing happening all around the world and in all sorts of professions, that people who were friends together... Every time that people are like, "Wow, these three major Hollywood stars knew each other in high school." Well, yes, that is actually more likely to happen than not, because of all these reasons I've talked about.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

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55 minutes ago, robardin said:

Why suppose he has a “Shadow” separate from the Splintered part of him that attached to the Stormfather? Even granting that possibility, are the words and actions - lying to Gavilar, disguising himself as another, etc., - are those the actions of Honor? But we’ve seen Cultivation is extremely canny, crafty, and subtle in manipulation…

Agreed it's not what you'd expect of Honor, but we know that Tanavast was not himself in his dying days. Maybe this a CS of that version of Tanavast, not strictly dispalying "Honor" attributes.

Edited by Nef
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I think it's important to avoid attributing more positive traits to Honor than are indicated in the text. Honor is the Shard of Oaths, not the Shard of Always Telling the Truth and Being Good To People. I think it's entirely feasible that Tanavast and his adherents can lie and deceive outside the bounds of a strict agreement.

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30 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I think it's important to avoid attributing more positive traits to Honor than are indicated in the text. Honor is the Shard of Oaths, not the Shard of Always Telling the Truth and Being Good To People. I think it's entirely feasible that Tanavast and his adherents can lie and deceive outside the bounds of a strict agreement.

But we see from Dalinar's experiences of the visions that Honor had a clear to-do list of suggestions for his successor:

Refound the Knights Radiant. Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose. Propose a Contest of Champions.

And that he was already kind of rambling and losing it mentally, and aware of that, while recording the visions. Why would he go so far off that script with Gavilar while showing him the same visions? Which he apparently saw without the same voiceover? And suddenly be so present of mind as to plot, scheme, and feign?

Plus, the Words that Gavilar "almost got right" with the so-called Stormfather was in demanding "give it to me, now" in response to mention of "the position I am offering you" - which is not the way the Stormfather ever refers to his bond with Dalinar, if you consider that to be "offering the position" of Bondsmith, especially before the bond was formed (where the SF is angry about the prospect at the end of WoR: I will not be bound....!)

It's the kind of boon/bane thing a presumed Cultivation offers Dalinar here. The boon would have been something like, Gavilar becomes something like a Herald, bolstering the weakening Oathpact (or creating a new one... There's usually a pause before using the word "Herald" to Gavilar in this prologue). And the bane would be, it's not what he thought he signed up for. (Probably why she describes the downsides to being a human-immortal spren combo - she has to quote the price, so to speak, and give the person a chance to state their knowing Intent.)

On the other hand, saying that the Words Gavilar needed to find were in Nohadon's The Way of Kings was interesting. The obvious reference would be to the Immortal Words of the First Ideal, common to all Radiants, but surely Gavilar would have tried that already? (Assuming it's mentioned in that work somewhere?) It could be a passage we haven't yet seen.

And apparently, Gavilar's "isn't it obvious?" answer to how he would deal with eons of torture in between bouts of fighting managed to be a complete surprise. "I'll just give up immediately and go right back to fighting - isn't that the point?"

And he kind of does have a point. If you're fighting to win, why would you stop before you win? The cycles of Desolations of setbacks and clawbacks just means you're respawning from an earlier point in the game every time, so to speak?

Edited by robardin
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3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Besides, the Words that Gavilar "almost got right" with the so-called Stormfather was "Give it to me, now"

Maybe "give it to me" now, spoken with intent, is as close as Gavilar got to the words, because the focus on "now" is (at a stretch) vaguely similar to focusing on the journey rather than destination. Definitely a longshot, but the "SF" did say its close yet far.

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I think I know what the words the 'SF' was asking for.

On the one hand, he dismisses the words close to the first ideal as 'not even close'

Then when gavilar says ' give it to me, I need it', he says that was close.

When gavilar thinks of it as a demand, SF backtracks again

He says the words are in the way of kings

Quote

As I began my journey, I was challenged to defend why I insisted on traveling alone. They called it irresponsible. An avoidance of duty and obligation.

Those who said this made an enormous mistake of assumption.

If the journey itself is indeed the most important piece, rather than the destination itself, then I traveled not to avoid duty—but to seek it.

It becomes the responsibility of every man, upon realizing he lacks the truth, to seek it out.

Yes, I began my journey alone, and I ended it alone.

But that does not mean that I walked alone.

Maybe the words are 'I seek my duty'

In the nale flashback, jezrien clearly says think of it not as an honor, but as a duty.

In in world words of radiance, melishi's plan was based on the divine 'duties' of a herald

The heralds are uniquely equipped with skills to help civilization rebuild each time, part of their duties?

The chapter icons for heralds have names like 'the king' 'the judge' 'the guard's.

I am sure there are more instances of 'duty' being attached to the oathpact.

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12 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Shallan catches her father looking towards the safe a few times throughout the years as well. It is unclear if he sees the light too, nd this is left openly referenced and ambiguous in the text. Thinking a child is going to psychosomatically hallucinate light as a representation of sin is a little complex for my liking. Shallan represses things; she does not hallucinate them. As to why can only she (and maybe Lin) see it? Maybe they have a connection to the event that makes that possible. Maybe they are more connected to Chana for some reason.

Hi Teknopathetic,

Just to add a little bit to your theory here--

Shallan's "oath level" has always been a major question/enigma, and seems to bounce around depending on a number of variables including her own self-deception.

We know that she intuitively sucks in stormlight rather frequently--sometimes without even realizing she's doing it or has done so.

So, with that said, I think its completely possible for Shallan to have manifested some illusion within the safe that would have drawn her father's attention--even a sound is within her capacity--or wheelhouse-- as we see her use Pattern to replicate sound.

Even taking into account of the "Killing" of Testament, she may have had access to her powers, or some level of ability with lightweaving in general. Just because Shallan thinks she "killed" Testment does not mean she did. She's an unreliable narrator at the best of times and there are many grains of salt that must be taken with any assertion of hers that even seems to approach an "objective truth".

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21 minutes ago, robardin said:

But we see from Dalinar's experiences of the visions that Honor had a clear to-do list of suggestions for his successor:

Refound the Knights Radiant. Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose. Propose a Contest of Champions.

And that he was already kind of rambling and losing it mentally, and aware of that, while recording the visions. Why would he go so far off that script with Gavilar while showing him the same visions? Which he apparently saw without the same voiceover? And suddenly be so present of mind as to plot, scheme, and feign?

So, the hypothetical scenario is one where Tanavast's ghost has more agency after merging with the Stormfather (if merge they did!) than we have been lead to believe. What we've seen so far from Stormfather is very Spren of the Storm and not very Ghost of a Dead God. The supposition here is that this is deliberate, the two are perhaps somewhat independent, and the "merge" is a cover story.

In this scenario, Tanavast is maintaining the illusion that he is dead-dead, meaningfully gone for good. Everybody who knows anything about what went down is convinced of it. Perhaps as some overarching plan, perhaps as some desperate workaround after he's killed, perhaps by mistake. It doesn't matter - the point is he wants to remain undercover.

If his growing madness was due to a conflict between the Shard and the Vessel, then physically dying and losing the Shard might have helped him gain some lucidity back. In fact, if he was tearing himself apart this way, we would absolutely expect Tanavast's ghost, no longer holding Honor, to act at least somewhat against its Intent, otherwise wherefrom the conflict?

When he's talking to Gavilar, the status quo is very different than when he's talking to Dalinar. The Oathpact is still holding back the Fused, but leaking the Everstorm. One presumes his goal at this point would be to reinforce the Oathpact by, for example, making a new Herald. This explains why he is so concerned about Gavilar's intention to just give in immediately.

When he's talking to Dalinar, one of the Heralds has already died. He knows it's a matter of time before a Desolation starts anew, new Herald or not. I have a separate theory about how it became inevitable even without any Herald breaking, but that's another thing. So his goal is now to make the world ready to fight a Desolation - new Radiants, stymy Odium, all that stuff. But telling the truth to Dalinar risks letting the world know that he's been hiding for two millennia, and possibly ruining his plan (if he has one).

I imagine he was furious to be bound by Dalinar, but got backed into a corner. Tanavast's ghost having some agency left would explain why Dalinar can do more things than the Stormfather lets on is possible. It would explain Rayse's utter shock when Dalinar does the Big Clap.

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I would also like to put forward Nohadon as another potential candidate for the Stormfaker:

1. When Dalinar hears Jansah read The Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral, Dalinar sees unexplained radiant light coming from the sound of the words. Only Dalinar seems to see that light. That is light is never explained in the story and is still a Chekov's Gun. 

2. Dalinar has an unexplained Nohadon vision that the Stormfather does not experience. This proves to us that it is possible to have non-Stormfather visions, and suspiciously, the man behind "find the most important words a man can say" is the central figure of that vision. Dalinar remarks over and over that Nohadon seems more real than people in other visions. 

3. Both Dalinar and Gavilar read the Way of Kings over and over and over and over, so maybe that is one way to strengthen the connection. Maybe Nohadon can connect to people who have connected to The Way of Kings book? Something happened with Dalinar and that Nohadon vision, and this connection doesnt seem to come from "touch" like with some of the Bondsmith powers we have seen used so far (unless you count touching the book)

4. Nohadon is the author of the Way of Kings and is the person we associate the most with "find the most important words a man can say", so he might be on our list of suspects.

5. This is not confirmed, but some people suspect Nohadon became a Bondsmith later in life.  If true, that opens up a lot of doors. We don't understand at all what a Bondsmith might be able to set up. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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My hot take over breakfast this morning. The right words are “give me your pain.”

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49 minutes ago, robardin said:

But we see from Dalinar's experiences of the visions that Honor had a clear to-do list of suggestions for his successor:

Refound the Knights Radiant. Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose. Propose a Contest of Champions.

And that he was already kind of rambling and losing it mentally, and aware of that, while recording the visions. Why would he go so far off that script with Gavilar while showing him the same visions? Which he apparently saw without the same voiceover? And suddenly be so present of mind as to plot, scheme, and feign?

Plus, the Words that Gavilar "almost got right" with the so-called Stormfather was in demanding "give it to me, now" in response to mention of "the position I am offering you" - which is not the way the Stormfather ever refers to his bond with Dalinar, if you consider that to be "offering the position" of Bondsmith, especially before the bond was formed (where the SF is angry about the prospect at the end of WoR: I will not be bound....!)

It's the kind of boon/bane thing a presumed Cultivation offers Dalinar here. The boon would have been something like, Gavilar becomes something like a Herald, bolstering the weakening Oathpact (or creating a new one... There's usually a pause before using the word "Herald" to Gavilar in this prologue). And the bane would be, it's not what he thought he signed up for. (Probably why she describes the downsides to being a human-immortal spren combo - she has to quote the price, so to speak, and give the person a chance to state their knowing Intent.)

On the other hand, saying that the Words Gavilar needed to find were in Nohadon's The Way of Kings was interesting. The obvious reference would be to the Immortal Words of the First Ideal, common to all Radiants, but surely Gavilar would have tried that already? (Assuming it's mentioned in that work somewhere?) It could be a passage we haven't yet seen.

And apparently, Gavilar's "isn't it obvious?" answer to how he would deal with eons of torture in between bouts of fighting managed to be a complete surprise. "I'll just give up immediately and go right back to fighting - isn't that the point?"

And he kind of does have a point. If you're fighting to win, why would you stop before you win? The cycles of Desolations of setbacks and clawbacks just means you're respawning from an earlier point in the game every time, so to speak?

If this is Cultivation's doing it's curious that she with her future-sight that this is not something she would have anticipated. It makes little sense that she would even pretend to be shocked. Why react at all?

20 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think I know what the words the 'SF' was asking for.

On the one hand, he dismisses the words close to the first ideal as 'not even close'

Then when gavilar says ' give it to me, I need it', he says that was close.

When gavilar thinks of it as a demand, SF backtracks again

He says the words are in the way of kings

Maybe the words are 'I seek my duty'

In the nale flashback, jezrien clearly says think of it not as an honor, but as a duty.

In in world words of radiance, melishi's plan was based on the divine 'duties' of a herald

The heralds are uniquely equipped with skills to help civilization rebuild each time, part of their duties?

The chapter icons for heralds have names like 'the king' 'the judge' 'the guard's.

I am sure there are more instances of 'duty' being attached to the oathpact.

It may indeed all come down to duty. Gavilar is a cynic. For him everything is a means to an end to achieve power and legacy. The Way of Kings, the codes, the stormfather. He does not mean anything that he says. Being a bondsmith as Dalinar is abhors things being means to an end. As a bondsmith he would have a duty to unite that no cynicism will allow. Saying the words are worthless if he does not mean them. Jezrien back in the very beginning calls the oathpact a burden that they willingly picked up. Well while that is not explicitly speaking of a duty implicitly it seems clear that that is the subtext. Without speaking of duty Gavilar's intent is hollow. What he seeks is impossible. I think that duty is the missing piece.

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13 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

There was never ANYTHING in the safe.  It was always a visual metaphor - young Shallan visualizing the "fruit of her sin" or whatever.  Nobody else ever saw it.

...

I'm also not convinced of the "StormFaker" idea (although I LOVE the term "StormFaker"!).

I think "StormFaker" is great too, and officially put forth that the Faker is Cultivation (so let it be written!)

As for what was in the safe... Shallan says to Pattern at the end of WoR as she remembers killing her mother, to advance (again) in Ideals,

Quote

She was there, in her father’s room. Trembling, she pulled aside the picture, revealing the strongbox in the wall beyond. She raised the key, and hesitated. “Mother’s soul is inside.”

“Mmm . . . No. Not her soul. That which took her soul.”

Shallan unlocked the safe, then tugged it open, revealing the contents. A small Shardblade. Thrust into the strongbox hastily, tip piercing through the back, hilt toward her.

“This was you,” she whispered.

“Mmm . . . Yes.”

“Father took you from me,” Shallan said, “and tried to hide you in here. Of course, that was useless. You vanished as soon as he closed the strongbox. Faded to mist. He wasn’t thinking clearly. Neither of us were.”

Well Shallan still wasn't thinking clearly even in recounting this, as she's still not remembered that she broke her bond with "Testament", the Cryptic spren she had been bonded to at the time (and who formed that Blade).

Pattern is obligingly pretending (as he did all the way through to nearly the end of RoW) that he was the same spren all along, but he knows he wasn't.

It stands to reason that for a while anyway, with the bond broken, that that "small Shardblade" - knife-sized, small enough to be wielded by a child - remained locked in that form like any other deadspren Shardblade after being summoned, "killed", and abandoned - the way the weapons at Feverstone Keep were.

It could well be that it remained in that box until the next time Shallan summoned Testament as a Blade, in killing Tyn. We just don't know.

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6 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think "StormFaker" is great too, and officially put forth that the Faker is Cultivation (so let it be written!)

As for what was in the safe... Shallan says to Pattern at the end of WoR as she remembers killing her mother, to advance (again) in Ideals,

Well Shallan still wasn't thinking clearly even in recounting this, as she's still not remembered that she broke her bond with "Testament", the Cryptic spren she had been bonded to at the time (and who formed that Blade).

Pattern is obligingly pretending (as he did all the way through to nearly the end of RoW) that he was the same spren all along, but he knows he wasn't.

It stands to reason that for a while anyway, with the bond broken, that that "small Shardblade" - knife-sized, small enough to be wielded by a child - remained locked in that form like any other deadspren Shardblade after being summoned, "killed", and abandoned - the way the weapons at Feverstone Keep were.

It could well be that it remained in that box until the next time Shallan summoned Testament as a Blade, in killing Tyn. We just don't know.

Pattern doesnt actually know what happened here. Pattern wasn't present in the physical realm for this, so Pattern cant really say what happened. Pattern assumed this was the case based on what had happened to Testament. The reader believes Pattern here, but in RoW we discover this is all Crem and Pattern is lying and making things up here and there for Shallan's benefit. Pattern does not know everything that happened with Testament, so we can reasonably assume Pattern was not a witness for the death of Shallan's mother. 

If there was a bright light, I really don't think Pattern would have any way of knowing.

Edited by teknopathetic
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