LewsTherinTelescope

Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

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The last exchange about the words was interesting.

" “Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far."

I think that last comment about being "so far" was a response to Gavilar calling it a demand and it was close because of him saying "I need it". My point is that I think the words have to do with being in need, almost pleading. 

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13 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said:

I know exactly what you meant,this was the scene i was imagining as well. To me,when that shift happens,it seemed more like the SF we knew before Dalinar bonded him so i found it strange too

I've always been intrigued by the fact that the Stormfather doesn't seem to have much of Tanavast's personality/memories as I would expect from his cognitive shadow.  I'm sure I'm far from the first to suggest this, but it seems reasonable to me that it could manifest as a split personality.  Perhaps this is the Tanavast personality surfacing? Or maybe it's the other way around.

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3 minutes ago, SirWerebear said:

The last exchange about the words was interesting.

" “Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far."

I think that last comment about being "so far" was a response to Gavilar calling it a demand and it was close because of him saying "I need it". My point is that I think the words have to do with being in need, almost pleading. 

This scene reminded me of when Dalinar almost released Odium from his bonds. Just the part where Odium turns his head around and explains what Dalinar is about to do.

Hmmm,one thought,could this be Odium? And him ascending to Herald status would just be him becoming his Champion? And Gavilar almost saying the words were like,Gavilar giving in to Odium? Meh,long stretch. was fun while it lasted

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1 minute ago, Infinity Sliver said:

This scene reminded me of when Dalinar almost released Odium from his bonds. Just the part where Odium turns his head around and explains what Dalinar is about to do.

Hmmm,one thought,could this be Odium? And him ascending to Herald status would just be him becoming his Champion? And Gavilar almost saying the words were like,Gavilar giving in to Odium? Meh,long stretch. was fun while it lasted

If I remember correctly in the same scene Odium said that you can't be tricked into an agreement like this. That you have to say it with Intent. 

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2 minutes ago, SirWerebear said:

If I remember correctly in the same scene Odium said that you can't be tricked into an agreement like this. That you have to say it with Intent. 

That could be why he's so far. Because those words would work, but Gavilar doesn't know what they would actually do.

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3 minutes ago, SirWerebear said:

If I remember correctly in the same scene Odium said that you can't be tricked into an agreement like this. That you have to say it with Intent. 

It wouldn't really be tricking him. Gavilar wants to be immortal and "replacing" a Herald been a second part that isn't important to him,Odious SF could pull it off without trickery. Again,long stretch here

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13 minutes ago, FiliusHonoris said:

I've always been intrigued by the fact that the Stormfather doesn't seem to have much of Tanavast's personality/memories as I would expect from his cognitive shadow.  I'm sure I'm far from the first to suggest this, but it seems reasonable to me that it could manifest as a split personality.  Perhaps this is the Tanavast personality surfacing? Or maybe it's the other way around.

The Stormfather is not Tanavast's cognitive shadow. He is Honor's. Tanavast is dead:

Quote

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

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On 3/30/2022 at 1:38 PM, CROSSENuUP said:

Confirmed now?

It is an interesting idea but it has several problems.  A herald loosing in a fight to an eight year old girl and an ordinary man is pretty hard to get your head around.  Also I have a hard time understanding how physical death would matter.  Wouldn't it just send them to braize?  If Channah broke right afterwards wouldn't that start the desolation instantly?

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Just now, Karger said:

It is an interesting idea but it has several problems.  A herald loosing in a fight to an eight year old girl and an ordinary man is pretty hard to get your head around.  Also I have a hard time understanding how physical death would matter.  Wouldn't it just send them to braize?  If Channah broke right afterwards wouldn't that start the desolation instantly?

If it was actually Odium not the SF, would he actually have had a way to know if one of the Heralds died? I guess they would be Connected through the Oathpact maybe?

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Stormfather is not Tanavast's cognitive shadow. He is Honor's. Tanavast is dead:

The Shard itself doesn't have a consciousness so how could he be Honor's cognitive shadow and not Tanavast's?  My understanding was that the names are just used interchangeably.

Edited by FiliusHonoris
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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

It is an interesting idea but it has several problems.  A herald loosing in a fight to an eight year old girl and an ordinary man is pretty hard to get your head around.  Also I have a hard time understanding how physical death would matter.  Wouldn't it just send them to braize?  If Channah broke right afterwards wouldn't that start the desolation instantly?

Shallan sniped an unprepared Herald with a Shardblade. We dont know what can kill a herald, but we do know that the heralds did often lose members each desolation. A shardblade to the heart might make sense. We also dont know if heralds are easier to kill without their blades on them or not, or if or how a herald can draw in stormlight or remain invested on their own. 

And in terms of physical death, Chana would have returned to Braize. We know the herlads dont go directly to Odium because the heralds talked about being able to hide on Braize for a time before being caught. We dont know what the "hide and seek" event looks like on Braize , but maybe her return was unexpected and she managed to hide from Odium longer than usual? As well, we dont know how strong Chana's will was. It is possible she took some time to break after being caught. 

The other thing from my theory was that Shallan claims Lin put her mother's soul into a Safe, and that the Safe continued to glow for about 5 years. In my original theory, the glowing soul in the safe was my #1 interesting item. I think the glowing soul and Lin's rush to shove it into a safe are still important aspects to whatever happened on the day Shallan's mother died. Many people discounted this as Shallan's delusions, but i very strong believe that unexplained glowing lights pulled out of corpses  are likely important in a book series all about lights, gems, and souls. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Just now, FiliusHonoris said:

The Shard itself doesn't have a consciousness so how could he be Honor's cognitive shadow and not Tanavast's?  My understanding was that the names are just used interchangably.

The Stormfather is the largest remnant of Honor that is unsplintered. Additionally, he seems to have absorbed pieces of Honor after his death, or perhaps pieces of Honor's connection:

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Brandon seems to use the term 'Cognitive Shadow' somewhat loosely:

Quote

WeiryWriter

Could you explain a little more about Cognitive Shadows? When you first mentioned the name and gave the examples of Kelsier and the Shades from Threnody you kind of gave the impression that they were kind of like ghosts. But this past December at the Orem signing you mentioned that the Stormfather and the mist were also Cognitive Shadows. The first makes sense to me, I had an [entire theory about that (although I argued he was specifically Tanavast’s and not Honor’s). The second however really doesn’t make sense to me, unless it was actually the mist spirit that is the shadow and that got missed in the report (it wasn’t verbatim), but even still Preservation is still alive at that point so how can he have a “ghost”? (Unless him sacrificing his mind to form Ruin’s prison counts as “death” in this situation?)

Brandon Sanderson

On the first question, I did not say the mists themselves were a Cognitive Shadow. That must have been a misunderstanding. The Stormfather totally is, though. Cognitive Shadows are basically ghosts, which can take a lot of different forms in the Cosmere, but follow general rules.

WeiryWriter

Is the mist /spirit/ a Cognitive Shadow then?

Brandon Sanderson

The mist spirit is a little more complicated than that. That was actually Leras, kind of. He was in the process of dying. But other things are involved there that, unfortunately, must be RAFOd.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

 

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5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

We dont know what the "hide and seek" event looks like on Braize

I'm so sad that we're probably going to have to wait like 10 years still for Herald flashbacks that might shed some light on this.

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4 hours ago, Nameless said:

And while it is true that Ishar needed to touch the Windrunners to connect them to the ground, he had to forge an entirely new connection for that, and he didn't have any prior connection to them. It stands to reason that simply enhancing a connection would be much easier.

Surely you do have a Connection to the ground of the planet you have lived and walked on your entire life?

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1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Shallan sniped an unprepared Herald with a Shardblade

A Herald would know a radiant could summon a shardblade.  Ishar(an average fighter by radiant standards) is able to fight off multiple windrunners using mostly just blade skills.  Channah is a fighter probably in the top three.  I find if slightly difficult to believe that she cannot handle an attack on that level even if she is taken by surprise.

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The other thing from my theory was that Shallan claims Lin put her mother's soul into a Safe, and that the Safe continued to glow. In my original theory, the glowing soul in the safe was my #1 interesting item. I think the glowing soul and Lin's rush to shove it into a safe are still important aspects to whatever happened on the day Shallan's mother died. 

That is a potentially more important point.  Locking a soul in a box is actually how one kills Heralds.  However you need Raysium to make that work.

A different point.

If you are wondering why the stormfather is acting a bit different then with Dalinar it is because of how Gavilar views him.  Spren take on different shapes based on the perception of those they interact with.  Gavilar often saw the stormfather as an opponent(human) to be overcome.  Dalinar sees him more as an abstract force.

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2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The other thing from my theory was that Shallan claims Lin put her mother's soul into a Safe, and that the Safe continued to glow. In my original theory, the glowing soul in the safe was my #1 interesting item. I think the glowing soul and Lin's rush to shove it into a safe are still important aspects to whatever happened on the day Shallan's mother died. 

If her soul was locked up it would have decayed like Jezrien, I don't think Lin did anything to her, he just tried to lock Testiment away.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Stormfather is the largest remnant of Honor that is unsplintered. Additionally, he seems to have absorbed pieces of Honor after his death, or perhaps pieces of Honor's connection:

Brandon seems to use the term 'Cognitive Shadow' somewhat loosely:

 

He also seems to have gotten at least something from Tanavast

Spoiler

WeiryWriter

What are Cultivation's feelings with regards to the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Cultivation's feelings... Cultivation is, *long pause* I just have to decide how I can say things that are not spoilers. Cultivation-- The Stormfather reminds her of certain things about someone else she knew, and she feels the same way about the Stormfather in some ways as this person that she knew.

JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014)

 

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3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Surely you do have a Connection to the ground of the planet you have lived and walked on your entire life?

Well, yes. But you don't have a connection in that way. Windrunners have a connection to their spren that is far stronger than the connection Ishar gave them to the ground, but they don't fill their spren with stormlight.

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

If you are wondering why the stormfather is acting a bit different then with Dalinar it is because of how Gavilar views him.  Spren take on different shapes based on the perception of those they interact with.  Gavilar often saw the stormfather as an opponent(human) to be overcome.  Dalinar sees him more as an abstract force.

But the SF doesnt act differently to everyone else. He's the same regardless in the books. He speaks to Syl,the same,Kaladin etc. The SF seems...way too grand to talk to someone differently just because of how they view him. 

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I haven't seen this in the thread yet but is it possible the death of the Herald the stormfather saw was in the future?  Gavilar's death was Connected to Jes's death in the future.  You might even say it was directly responsible for it.  Without him around and the highprinces off at the shattered plains the fused easily took out what had once been some of their greatest enemies.  If Alethkar had not fallen Jes would have remained alive after all.  The stormfather even says that he is having a glimpse of the future and that he cannot let anyone know what is going on.

Quote

“What?” Gavilar said, backing up. “What happened?”

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

 

What are you?” Gavilar whispered, hoarse.

The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it.

“What?” Gavilar demanded, stepping forward. “What is coming?”

Your legacy.

Gavilar's legacy is the fall of Alethkar and the death of mankind's greatest defender.  It all happened because he could not trust any of the brilliant people in his life who loved him.  Meanwhile while the fused thought they could capture Jes they ended up killing him instead.  Almost like what was really going on with his connection to Honor had been hidden by someone.

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3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Considering Mraize says Thaidakar doesn't find him important enough to send him his avatar but he did so with Gav, you might want to place him a bit higher

maybe.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

A Herald would know a radiant could summon a shardblade.  Ishar(an average fighter by radiant standards) is able to fight off multiple windrunners using mostly just blade skills.  Channah is a fighter probably in the top three.  I find if slightly difficult to believe that she cannot handle an attack on that level even if she is taken by surprise.

Ishar wasn't a fighter when he was a Herald. So the madman that is Ishar can learn those skills and use them without hesitation. It's been 10,000 years. Channah's thing was fighting. Mad Channah wouldn't be a fighter, wouldn't be able to use those skills anymore than Jezrien could use his leadership skills.

They aren't Heralds anymore, they're broken Cognitive Shadows that have been given Physical form way too long.

Edited by Leuthie
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Just now, Leuthie said:

Ishar wasn't a fighter when he was a Herald. So the madman that is Ishar can learn those skills and use them without hesitation. It's been 10,000 years. Channah's thing was fighting. Mad Channah wouldn't be a fighter, wouldn't be able to use those skills anymore than Jezrien could use his leadership skills.

All of the Herald's were fighters.  The restrictions are on their attitudes not their abilities.  Ash can figure out Hoid's drawing style, Nale still has excellent legal knowledge and Taln's combat skill are still ludicrous.  Channah might avoid fighting but she would still know how to fight.

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Just now, Karger said:

All of the Herald's were fighters.  The restrictions are on their attitudes not their abilities.  Ash can figure out Hoid's drawing style, Nale still has excellent legal knowledge and Taln's combat skill are still ludicrous.  Channah might avoid fighting but she would still know how to fight.

But the madness interferes specifically with their "thing", the aspect they represented as Heralds. Sure, she knows how, but the madness would specifically interfere with her ability to fight.

And the best fighter in the history of any universe at the top of their game could be killed by their young daughter wielding a shardblade. There's surprise, then there's your own young daughter killing you with a shardblade.

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2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

And the best fighter in the history of any universe at the top of their game could be killed by their young daughter wielding a shardblade. There's surprise, then there's your own young daughter killing you with a shardblade.

But it wouldn't be a surprise.  If you know all about radiants you know she has one don't you?

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Wow, I only just read this Prologue to KoW this morning via an emailed newsletter and it did not disappoint!

Ever since seeing Gavilar's depiction in RoW I thought he exhibited a mentality very similar to what we saw from Shallan's father - I have guessed that to be the influence of an Unmade - and the way this Prologue ended, suggested maybe the Stormfather had someone been taken over, compromised, or outright in cahoots with that same Unmade (!!)

But no, at the end, it talks in italics to Gavilar referring to Odium as "the enemy" and how "this is my failure as much as yours". And says how he would turn away from Dalinar...

Could it be another Shard?!  Cultivation? Seems too dodgy to introduce a fourth Shard to Events on Roshar like that, after all.

Chanarach being described as a redheaded woman, combined with the timing of the death of a Herald that the SF felt, plus earlier WoBs that Taln had not broken to spark the Final Desolation (it was another Herald), it all fits too perfectly to be a coincidence... But then why was she moving to attack Shallan? (I guess the answer is: "All of the Heralds are insane...")

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