Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Dalinar was able to easily connect himself to other people in order to do understand their language, even before swearing the third ideal.

And has there been anything he struggled to Connect?

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And Gavilar was on the road to becoming a Bondsmith. He had connection to the Stormfather, and Ishar had connection to the Stormfather.

That's a secondhand Connection at best.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

And has there been anything he struggled to Connect?

Yes. summoning the perpendicularity, connecting all three realms together, tires him.

Just now, Frustration said:

That's a secondhand Connection at best.

Yes. But a Bondsmith could strengthen it.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes. summoning the perpendicularity, connecting all three realms together, tires him.

It tires him, but it isn't hard.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes. But a Bondsmith could strengthen it.

That's not a Connection he has, it's a Connection someone else has.

In order to do what you claim he would have to take the Connection from someone else and give it to himself, and then strengthen it.

All without touching them.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

That's not a Connection he has, it's a Connection someone else has.

In order to do what you claim he would have to take the Connection from someone else and give it to himself, and then strengthen it.

All without touching them.

It's possible that he could strengthen the connection through his connection to the Stormfather, without needing to touch him. However, I will admit that this theory is extremely tenuous at best, and my entire reason for looking for alternatives is based on me feeling that the Stormfather is acting out of character, based on the first draft of the prologue. So I don't exactly think it's a very likely theory. Just something that could be possible.

[teknopathetic]

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It's possible that he could strengthen the connection through his connection to the Stormfather, without needing to touch him. However, I will admit that this theory is extremely tenuous at best, and my entire reason for looking for alternatives is based on me feeling that the Stormfather is acting out of character, based on the first draft of the prologue. So I don't exactly think it's a very likely theory. Just something that could be possible.

I support you Nameless!

If we have Odium using Moash to make a connection bridge to Kaladin, then we know there are some fun things people can do with connection. Even SP4 shows us some things people can do with connection that we didnt know about. I really dont think we know enough about what Heralds are, how the Oathpact works, or what ancient fabrials are out there, what Nightwatcher/Cultivation boons might do (Lift), what Cultivation wants, what Offworld magics might be around (seons), what Spren can do, how potential bondsmiths are found (the potter), or what Honour's death did to really discount anything here. Connection is something we are learning about bit by bit, and is not something we understand. No one has ever explained it to us, so I dont think we are in a position to say "that isnt possible". We are just not knowledgable enough to say what is possible with connection. We have examples of connection in other worlds not requiring touch but instead physical location, so let's not close the door on what is possible just yet. 

However, I do think we have enough hints with Odium, Moash, Noadon, "Unite them", Hoid-Kaladin, and Lift to say that there are many more options concerning the visions that we currently understand. The visions are demonstrably something other people have access too, and connection-lines are demonstrably something people can manipulate and utilize in various ways. "We haven't seen it yet" is not good counter evidence when our main Bondsmith has learned barely anything about his powers and when we know there are things being done with bonds well beyond our understanding so far. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Dreamwa1ker]

On Chana - major props to @teknopathetic it was already a really interesting theory and now it seems pretty likely. So timeline would be: Shallan kills her, she goes to Braize and after 5 years breaks (Taln never broke) - that means she has likely returned to Roshar somewhere as well around the time of WoK. This SCREAMS for Shallan to come face-to-face with her mother in Stormlight 5 - I get chills thinking about it. WOW.

On Stormfaker vs Stormfather: I'm not 100% in either camp but am really enjoying the theorizing because it's fun. The Stormfather did feel a little off to me but there are potential reasons for that.

For Ishar theory specifically, I can see where people are going here, and the timeline. The thing that doesn't fit for me though is this - wasn't Ishar the one that proposed what the Heralds did in leaving Taln behind? And it seemed to be working, Taln wasn't breaking. So why now would he be trying to replace him? I guess Ishar wanting to be able to die and not be immortal anymore might work as a motive.

For it actually being the Stormfather theory, I'm ok with slight personality shift, maybe even the lying (though it seems counter to his obsession with oaths, but the really big thing that threw me were the words. Gavilar says something very close to the first ideal and it gets rebuffed as "not even close." The thing that he does say is close "give it to me. Now. I need it" sounds almost Odium Passion-y to me to be quite honest. 

I think a candidate for Stormfaker that is getting discounted too much is Odium. Motive: Odium probably would want someone to replace Taln - Taln is like the last piece of the Oathpact still holding, and he isn't breaking. Means: He would have the power of a Shard which makes him likely to be able to pull the impersonation off. And he seems able to give people visions. He is also bound there by the Oathpact so I think it is not unlikely that he could tell when a Herald returns to Braize. And he would have future-sight which would explain the moment where he seems to look ahead and know Gavilar is about to die and says he won't stop it.

I think the main evidence against Odium as Stormfaker would be the moment where Gavilar says he would just give up on Braize immediately, that there would just be endless war, and the Stormfather pauses and says this was a mistake. Wouldn't Odium want that? I think he might not mind endless war, but wasn't Odium's main goal to escape the system so he could Splinter more Shards? Having the desolation continue forever would not further that goal, he would still be stuck in the system. He wants to break the loop.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Dreamwa1ker

[KaladinWorldsinger]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And has there been anything he struggled to Connect?

Ishar struggled with ripping the stormfather bond, but easily connected sigzil to the ground. 

Quote

Nothing Ishar does indicates that different Connections are more or less difficult to manipulate than any other.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I support you Nameless!

If we have Odium using Moash to make a connection bridge to Kaladin, then we know there are some fun things people can do with connection. Even SP4 shows us some things people can do with connection that we didnt know about. I really dont think we know enough about what Heralds are, how the Oathpact works, or what ancient fabrials are out there, what Nightwatcher/Cultivation boons might do (Lift), or what Offworld magics might be around (seons), what Spren can do, or what Honour's death did to really discount anything here. Connection is something we are learning about bit by bit, and is not something we understand. No one has ever explained it to us, so I dont think we are in a position to say "that isnt possible". We are just not knowledgable enough to say what is possible with connection. We have examples of connection in other worlds not requiring touch but instead physical location, so let's not close the door on what is possible just yet. 

However, I do think we have enough hints with Odium, Moash, Noadon, "Unite them", and Lift to say that there are many more options concerning the visions that we currently understand. The visions are demonstrably something other people have access too, and connection-lines are demonstrably something people can manipulate and utilize in various ways. "We haven't seen it yet" is not good counter evidence when our main Bondsmith has learned barely anything about his powers yet and when we know there are things being done with bonds well beyond our understanding so far. 

If Ishar could do that why did he wait for Dalinar to come to him instead of taking the bond himself? And how was he sane enough to impersonate the Stormfather?

We saw what he was like Ishar is far too full of himself to ever listen to someone else.

5 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I think a candidate for Stormfaker that is getting discounted too much is Odium. Motive: Odium probably would want someone to replace Taln - Taln is like the last piece of the Oathpact still holding, and he isn't breaking. Means: He would have the power of a Shard which makes him likely to be able to pull the impersonation off. He is also bound there by the Oathpact so I think it is not unlikely that he could tell when a Herald returns to Braize. And he would have future-sight which would explain the moment where he seems to look ahead and know Gavilar is about to die and says he won't stop it.

I think the main evidence against Odium as Stormfaker would be the moment where Gavilar says he would just give up on Braize immediately, that there would just be endless war, and the Stormfather pauses and says this was a mistake. Wouldn't Odium want that? I think he might not mind endless war, but wasn't Odium's main goal to escape the system so he could Splinter more Shards? Having the desolation continue forever would not further that goal, he would still be stuck in the system. He wants to break the loop.

Odium is not bound by the Oathpact, and if it was him: Why is he making sure that Gavilar is the perfect candidate? Why is he upset that a Herald died? Why does he listen to Gavilar?

Just now, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Ishar struggled with ripping the stormfather bond, but easily connected sigzil to the ground. 

Um, no he didn't.

He touched Dalinar who hurt because of it, but Ishar didn't notice a thing.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Just now, Frustration said:

Um, no he didn't.

He touched Dalinar who hurt because of it, but Ishar didn't notice a thing.

It did take him time enough for szeth to save Dalinar, and Dalinar could feel the process in real time, instead of an instant.

We know connections have different levels of strength. Manipulating different types and strenghts of connections would be different, obviously

[teknopathetic]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If Ishar could do that why did he wait for Dalinar to come to him instead of taking the bond himself? And how was he sane enough to impersonate the Stormfather?

 

We don't know what happened, Frustration. We simply don't. Maybe Ishar did touch Gavilar once to make a connection. Maybe Ishar changed his plans and didn't put in the work to build the bond. Maybe ishar was in the Cognitive realm standing right next to Gavilar. Perhaps Dalinar being actually bonded changed something. Until we KNOW what happened, we cant discount these things. Or maybe it is another deity or force at work. But we dont have enough information to disprove Ishar. 

But I think I need to stop interacting with you on this forum, Frustration. I don't think we see eye to eye on how to theorycraft or what constitutes proof or counter-evidence. From now on I think I need to step away.

Enjoy the journey! If you are correct, good work =) 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

Just now, KaladinWorldsinger said:

It did take him time enough for szeth to save Dalinar, and Dalinar could feel the process in real time, instead of an instant.

Szeth was right next to Dalinar.

1 minute ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

We know connections have different levels of strength. Manipulating different types and strenghts of connections would be different, obviously

Obviously not as you seem to have read an entire different set of information to me.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Obviously not as you seem to have read an entire different set of information to me

We do know that connections have different levels of strength in the cosmere? I don't get what you are talking about

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Obviously not as you seem to have read an entire different set of information to me.

There is a difference between the connection between Kaladin and Moash, and the connection between Moash and the ruler of Azir.

[Infinity Sliver]

I have a question

If Gavilar was so far into his oaths that the SF(whoever he was) thought he was one oath short of been a Herald,how was Gavilar able to hold a shardblade in his fight with Szeth when he was in full armor and plate? Why wasnt he able to able to breathe in some of the stormlight in the room where he and Szeth fought?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Infinity Sliver said:

I have a question

If Gavilar was so far into his oaths that the SF(whoever he was) thought he was one oath short of been a Herald,how was Gavilar able to hold a shardblade in his fight with Szeth when he was in full armor and plate? Why wasnt he able to able to breathe in some of the stormlight in the room where he and Szeth fought?

Gavilar was one oath short of bonding the SF. He hadn't sworn any ideals.

[FiliusHonoris]

4 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said:

I have a question

If Gavilar was so far into his oaths that the SF(whoever he was) thought he was one oath short of been a Herald,how was Gavilar able to hold a shardblade in his fight with Szeth when he was in full armor and plate? Why wasnt he able to able to breathe in some of the stormlight in the room where he and Szeth fought?

Radiants came after the Heralds and the Oathpact.  I would assume being Radiant is not a requirement to become a Herald.

[twenty second of the sun]

5 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said:

I have a question

If Gavilar was so far into his oaths that the SF(whoever he was) thought he was one oath short of been a Herald,how was Gavilar able to hold a shardblade in his fight with Szeth when he was in full armor and plate? Why wasnt he able to able to breathe in some of the stormlight in the room where he and Szeth fought?

the stormfather did say that he would do nothing to save gavilar .

[Infinity Sliver]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Gavilar was one oath short of bonding the SF. He hadn't sworn any ideals.

Even before Oaths are spoken,haven't we seen cases where they still absorb stormlight? Elhokar with the gemstones in his shardplate,kaladin with spheres Teft gave him...I can't recall any others but I could be wrong nonetheless

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Infinity Sliver said:

Even before Oaths are spoken,haven't we seen cases where they still absorb stormlight? Elhokar with the gemstones in his shardplate,kaladin with spheres Teft gave him...I can't recall any others but I could be wrong nonetheless

I don't think Elhokar breathed in stormlight from his Shardplate. And Gavilar wasn't a very good match for the Stormfather.

[teknopathetic]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

I don't think Elhokar breathed in stormlight from his Shardplate. And Gavilar wasn't a very good match for the Stormfather.

I hope we one day learn more about the Potter who also was receiving visions from someone. The poor guy got death-rattled, but I wonder if there is more to his story, 

[FiliusHonoris]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It tires him, but it isn't hard.

That's not a Connection he has, it's a Connection someone else has.

In order to do what you claim he would have to take the Connection from someone else and give it to himself, and then strengthen it.

All without touching them.

I'm a firm believer that it was the real Stormfather but I was thinking and wouldn't the mere existence of Squires be an example of Connection by proxy?  The Radiant's bond/connection to their spren gives them access to the surges, but it's not like Squires have bonds to their Radiant's spren.

Could totally be off-base, just thought I'd throw that out there.

[mathiau]

15 hours ago, Dannnex said:

omg this was amazing

i completely freaked out when we got to see kelsier
might've squealed 

correct me if i'm wrong but this is the first time we've seen him on-screen since secret history right?

Depends whether you count the vision at the end of BoM

14 hours ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

true, true. Gavilar might be the fourth most idiotic cremling in SA. (current alignment is. Moash, ROdium, Amaram, Gavilar, Mraize.)

Considering Mraize says Thaidakar doesn't find him important enough to send him his avatar but he did so with Gav, you might want to place him a bit higher

3 hours ago, Friendshipspren said:

I think stormfaker is actually one of the Unmade , possibly Dai-Gonarthis.

I don't see why you're saying Dai in particular, I think it'd make more sense for him do be in the Davar estate

Quote

I think it's an Unmade trying to be god , like BAM 2.0 . It wanted gav to become a new Herald and hold off Odium for atleast a few centuries  or such ( perhaps it thought taln was almost gonna give up ) during which time it's power could wax. It was afraid that now Odium would see it trying to usurp him and crush him.

About that, Sja? Or an Enlighten Truespren?

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Moash had a strong enough connection to Kaladin for Odium to use his connection to Moash to give Kal visions. 

(SP #4)

  Hide contents

In secret project #4, Sigzil's knight forges enough of a connection to Hoid to do the VR thing.

It seems like the connection needed to do VR calls is fairly easy to get, even possible to get naturally. Straight up taking a bond from a Knight Radiant, particularly a Bondsmith, is obviously far more difficult.

And while it is true that Ishar needed to touch the Windrunners to connect them to the ground, he had to forge an entirely new connection for that, and he didn't have any prior connection to them. It stands to reason that simply enhancing a connection would be much easier.

Er... Hoid is a Duralumin Compounder

[Infinity Sliver]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't think Elhokar breathed in stormlight from his Shardplate. And Gavilar wasn't a very good match for the Stormfather.

ok,maye not elhokar,but kaladin right? And even if he wasn't a good match,apparently he close enough to be able to soon bond him,so breathing stormlight isnt too farfetched

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Infinity Sliver said:

ok,maye not elhokar,but kaladin right? And even if he wasn't a good match,apparently he close enough to be able to soon bond him,so breathing stormlight isnt too farfetched

Jaxlim too

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Er... Hoid is a Duralumin Compounder

Spoiler

Sigzil's knight was the one that forged the connection. Yes, they had a pre-existing connection, but my point was that it is possible to strengthen a pre-existing bond without physically touching someone.