Last shard - survival shard

[phoenix2563]

I am posting this here as my theorizing mainly comes from Brandon's Q&A about Secret project #1:

_________________________________

Kellyn

The chat is very much reading into your use of "whimsy."

Brandon Sanderson

I know. They should, instead, read into something earlier I said in the stream.

Secret Project #1 Reveal and Livestream (March 8, 2022)

_________________________

So I re-watched the stream, and something popped out at me, as the word "pragmatc" was used multiple times.  In addition, the way this world is structured has a very pragmatic feel to it.  Each of the 12 moons is positioned over a different area of the planet (each with a different "proto-aether"), the moons being directly over what is likely the 12 habitable areas on the world.  The rules, at least in this realm, seem focused on keeping things working (ie very pragmatic) rather than keeping people "happy".

So I'm thinking a shard named Pragmatism is or once had influence over this system, is associated with the number 12, and is responsible for the aethers being slightly different on this world vs. the aether homeworld.  Pragmatism also fits in very well with what we know of the survival shard .  It is also in line with those who have guessed "wisdom" as a shard, of which Pragmatism is close.  To survive can be a pragmatic choice, but recall Brandon also said recently that the Survival has come to recognize that surviving may no longer be the best option.

_________________________

Paleo

In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time.

Paleo

Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Paleo

And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close?

Brandon Sanderson

Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

__________________________

What do you guys think?  Could Pragmatism be our final shard?  Unless, of course, some group has gone out and created a new one (see: Secret History)

Edited March 27, 2022 by phoenix2563
spelling

[Frustration]

While I don't find the idea of Pragmatism a bad one I'm almost certain that Invention is the survival shard.

Pragmatism could certainly work, a way to balance the other shards out when altogether.

[phoenix2563]

But how does invention lead to a desire to survive?  Invention is to me, more of a creation type shard intertwined with intelligence.  Pragmatism is more of a stability type shard with intelligence.  I would see invention trying to create unique devices to avoid destruction by Odium at the beginning of things.  I am just having a hard time seeing invention withdrawing and just trying to survive.  There is nothing creative in that.

 

Also,  Pragmatism is a really nice counter to Whimsy, just sayin'.

[phoenix2563]

Also here is a table I came up with.  Sorry if I am copying anyone's ideas, it was not intentional if so.

		Dawnshards
		Create	Change	Stabilize	Strengthen
Realms	Physical	Invention	Ruin	Autonomy	Dominion
	Cognitive	Virtuosity	Odium	Pragmatism	Valor
	Spiritual	Endowment	Mercy	Honor	Devotion
	Temporal	Whimsy	Cultivation	Preservation	Ambition

 

[CameronUluvara]

Don’t we already have all 16 names?

Honor, Odium, Cultivation, Ruin, Preservation, Dominion, Devotion, Ambition, Autonomy, Endowment, Mercy, Fortune, Valor, Whimsy, Invention, Virtuosity.

[+Bzhydack]

7 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Don’t we already have all 16 names?

Honor, Odium, Cultivation, Ruin, Preservation, Dominion, Devotion, Ambition, Autonomy, Endowment, Mercy, Fortune, Valor, Whimsy, Invention, Virtuosity.

Fortune is not Shard. Is more like function in Spiritual Realm.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, phoenix2563 said:

But how does invention lead to a desire to survive?  Invention is to me, more of a creation type shard intertwined with intelligence.  Pragmatism is more of a stability type shard with intelligence.  I would see invention trying to create unique devices to avoid destruction by Odium at the beginning of things.  I am just having a hard time seeing invention withdrawing and just trying to survive.  There is nothing creative in that.

The survival shard's intent is only tangentially related to it's desire to survive

Spoiler

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Additionally Harmony couldn't contact Invention after their first conversation, almost as if they don't want to be found.

[phoenix2563]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Additionally Harmony couldn't contact Invention after their first conversation, almost as if they don't want to be found.

I hear what you are saying, but Brandon is known for misdirecting us, which is what he could be doing with that letter.  There could be an entirely different reason Invention is not responding.  Also, I always envisioned the shard with the primariy intelligence intent (ie invention) to be behind what is going on at Silverlight.  And that just doesn't fit for me with wanting to "just survive" at any point.  Silverlight and the 17th shard have been very active in the Cosmere.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Brandon basically said in Livestream #3 that the Survival Shard is the sole remaining shard

Can I get a timestamp on that?

6 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

and what we know about Invention doesn't line up with that we know about the Survival Shard.

The only thing we know about them is that they want to get away from everything happening in the Cosmere and that their intent is only slightly related to that.

[teknopathetic]

14 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Brandon basically said in Livestream #3 that the Survival Shard is the sole remaining shard so it's definitely not Invention and what we know about Invention doesn't line up with that we know about the Survival Shard.

Pragmatism could be it, though I'd still be banking on Wisdom or something myself.

He said we knew of the last one. And we have heard of wisdom, Anguish, and maybe Survival adjacent. 

[King-A-Train]

16 hours ago, phoenix2563 said:

Also here is a table I came up with.  Sorry if I am copying anyone's ideas, it was not intentional if so.

		Dawnshards
		Create	Change	Stabilize	Strengthen
Realms	Physical	Invention	Ruin	Autonomy	Dominion
	Cognitive	Virtuosity	Odium	Pragmatism	Valor
	Spiritual	Endowment	Mercy	Honor	Devotion
	Temporal	Whimsy	Cultivation	Preservation	Ambition

 

I think you’re definitely on to something here, I’ve been playing around with a table for a while. Never got a full layout I’m happy with.

Virtuosity’s confirmation along with Invention makes me almost certain Create is a Dawnshard. (Hoid’s?)

Obviously we know about Change. 

I like Stabilise, I’ve been calling it Stasis or “Survive”. 

It’s just that final one, is Strengthen too similar to Change? I’ve also seen convincing arguments about Passion fitting in somewhere too. 

[phoenix2563]

Thanks!  I put quite a bit of thought into that table!

I see strengthen as different to change.  Change is more along the lines of transforming from what things are to something else.  "Strengthen" doesn't change anything but enhances it.  Actually, maybe "Enhance" is a better dawnshard name, now that I think of it?

Of course, if one assumes that "Unite" is a dawnshard, as some have theorized, then my table doesn't work that well   Devotion and Dominion could still work in a "Unite" column, but then Valor or Ambition don't work very well there.

[King-A-Train]

7 hours ago, phoenix2563 said:

Thanks!  I put quite a bit of thought into that table!

I see strengthen as different to change.  Change is more along the lines of transforming from what things are to something else.  "Strengthen" doesn't change anything but enhances it.  Actually, maybe "Enhance" is a better dawnshard name, now that I think of it?

Of course, if one assumes that "Unite" is a dawnshard, as some have theorized, then my table doesn't work that well   Devotion and Dominion could still work in a "Unite" column, but then Valor or Ambition don't work very well there.

I see you point about enhancing.

I’m pretty much sold on Creation and Stabilise or similarly named Commands.

Enhance, Unite, Passion? What is that fourth one. 

I tried setting up an excel spreadsheet to list the shards and what they could be under, still didn’t get anywhere. 

Devotion and Dominion are the ones that stump me as well. Probably the shard names that could have the widest scope, we know very little about those intents and aren’t likely to find much out until Dragonsteel, as they are splintered. 

[cometaryorbit]

Given the "Dawnshard, known to bind all creatures voidish or mortal" from WoR epigraphs, I think something at least like Bind or Unite is pretty solidly one of the Dawnshards. Honor would obviously fit that. Devotion and Dominion are probably under that given the emphasis on unity of love vs unity imposed in Elantris' religions... otoh those Shards might have become more paired due to their current state as the Dor than they originally were. Dominion at least would be an Unite/Bind Shard though.

Change is Rysn's Dawnshard, which surely includes Ruin and Cultivation.

Create also fits well.

And then something like Protect or Remain covering Preservation, Valor, Mercy and ???

I feel like that doesn't leave room for a mental/emotional group though.

[King-A-Train]

This is fun to theorise even though it is pure speculation until we get some more information from Brandon. 

My other thought to try and connect them is the shards we know the associated numbers of. Presumably the shards under the same Dawnshard have a numeral connection eg: 1,2,3,4 or 4,8,12,16. 

Can the ones we know or have an educated guess at the numbers be linked?: Preservation (16), Honor (10), Odium (9), Virtuosity (13?), Endowment (5?) maybe others I can’t think of right now.

 

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, now I'm thinking that Create probably shouldn't be one of the Dawnshards. Adonalsium is the Power of Creation, and the Dawnshards together were used to create the cosmere, I think.

Maybe something like Imagine/Envision/Think- Bind/Enact - Remain/Be - Change.

Used together, they would Imagine or Envision what should be created, Bind or Enact it into reality, and give the creation both persistent reality/stability and the ability to change/develop.

[Johnny Silverlight]

Two possibilities for the Intent of the Survival Shard.

1. Compassion. The Shard's Vessel may be hiding because it doesn't want harm to come to the inhabitants of another planet, so hiding out in space would protect others.

2. Knowledge. This Vessel may know enough about the situation throughout the Cosmere to understand that hiding themselves would be the best option (both for themselves and for others).

[+Child of Hodor]

On 6/18/2022 at 9:33 PM, Johnny Silverlight said:

Two possibilities for the Intent of the Survival Shard.

1. Compassion. The Shard's Vessel may be hiding because it doesn't want harm to come to the inhabitants of another planet, so hiding out in space would protect others.

2. Knowledge. This Vessel may know enough about the situation throughout the Cosmere to understand that hiding themselves would be the best option (both for themselves and for others).

Wisdom or a synonym is what I'm going with. They thought hiding and surviving was the wisest course of action. Similar to what you said for Knowledge.

Mercy and compassion are pretty close. Not exact, but I feel Mercy has it covered enough that Compassion isn't different enough. 

[bmcclure7]

On 3/27/2022 at 5:53 PM, phoenix2563 said:

I am posting this here as my theorizing mainly comes from Brandon's Q&A about Secret project #1:

_________________________________

Kellyn

The chat is very much reading into your use of "whimsy."

Brandon Sanderson

I know. They should, instead, read into something earlier I said in the stream.

Secret Project #1 Reveal and Livestream (March 8, 2022)

_________________________

So I re-watched the stream, and something popped out at me, as the word "pragmatc" was used multiple times.  In addition, the way this world is structured has a very pragmatic feel to it.  Each of the 12 moons is positioned over a different area of the planet (each with a different "proto-aether"), the moons being directly over what is likely the 12 habitable areas on the world.  The rules, at least in this realm, seem focused on keeping things working (ie very pragmatic) rather than keeping people "happy".

So I'm thinking a shard named Pragmatism is or once had influence over this system, is associated with the number 12, and is responsible for the aethers being slightly different on this world vs. the aether homeworld.  Pragmatism also fits in very well with what we know of the survival shard .  It is also in line with those who have guessed "wisdom" as a shard, of which Pragmatism is close.  To survive can be a pragmatic choice, but recall Brandon also said recently that the Survival has come to recognize that surviving may no longer be the best option.

_________________________

Paleo

In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time.

Paleo

Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Paleo

And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close?

Brandon Sanderson

Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

__________________________

What do you guys think?  Could Pragmatism be our final shard?  Unless, of course, some group has gone out and created a new one (see: Secret History)

 We were already introduced to the name of the survival shard in secret project 3

[phoenix2563]

On 7/11/2022 at 4:48 PM, bmcclure7 said:

We were already introduced to the name of the survival shard in secret project 3

You assume that is the Survival shard, the one named in SP #3.  Many, including myself, think it is not, and the Survival shard is the last to be revealed.  The intent of that named shard has almost nothing to do with survival, wisdom, prudence, etc. IMO.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, phoenix2563 said:

You assume that is the Survival shard, the one named in SP #3.  Many, including myself, think it is not, and the Survival shard is the last to be revealed.  The intent of that named shard has almost nothing to do with survival, wisdom, prudence, etc. IMO.

Bradon never said it did have anything to do with survival prudence or wisdom that just a fan assumption. Everthing he actually said fits the shard in secret project 3 exactly.  

[Frustration]

56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Bradon never said it did have anything to do with survival prudence or wisdom that just a fan assumption. Everthing he actually said fits the shard in secret project 3 exactly.  

Except that Virtuosity basically committed suicide.

[Lego Mistborn]

While I am of the opinion that the survival Shard is not Virtuosity, I don't we think we can disprove it yet despite

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Except that Virtuosity basically committed suicide.

This can't be used as proof, because, as Brandon puts it

Quote

Paleo (paraphrased)

Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important.

Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12684

 

 

 

However, the fact that Brandon says a shard with similar intent, while Virtuosity probably could be argued to fit the bill, I don't think so, especially with one more shard left.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Except that Virtuosity basically committed suicide.

  Which is why we know it was so called survival  Shard that everyone thinks Brandon Sanderson was talking about.  Brandon Sanderson clearly said that the not "survival" shard  Has discovered that survival is not desirable ( Which is why I'm confused why anyone thought this was a survival shard)  Given that it makes sense that this shard committed suicide. From What Brandon Sanderson described it sounds like she just gave up on life. 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

While I am of the opinion that the survival Shard is not Virtuosity, I don't we think we can disprove it yet despite

This can't be used as proof, because, as Brandon puts it

However, the fact that Brandon says a shard with similar intent, while Virtuosity probably could be argued to fit the bill, I don't think so, especially with one more shard left.

Are you say there are two suicidal uninvested shards?