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Okay okay I'm here omg, you know I do tend to get detached from games at times till D3 >>

@Amanuensis and @Kasimir, with regards to my Devotary read, I'd like to be clear because it wasn't hedging or the sorts. Elim!Devotary has a very clear meta - be quite, don't gain attention, coast along the game by chipping in interesting seemingly-helpful tidbits now and then, which often ends up resulting in Devotary being the last standing member of her team. Bussing (especially D1) is also not a part of e!Devotary meta. Devotary busses only when the elimination is a foregone conclusion. In D1, she particularly saved e!Illwei when there was a tie in a fairly recent game. So, by hopping onto the elim claim, she immediately brought attention to herself - which is why I said it's a weird thing for e!Devotary to do. This means two things - either she's village or she's playing this evil game very different to her usual meta. And because I think it's latter rather than former, I placed her in my evil list. 

And I came here to vote on Mat, but then see he's defending me in last page smh >> I do think Mat's been suspicious because I've not seen him defending players like this before, and there seems to be no one he solidly suspects. Usually he'd be a bit more firm about his suspicions by now, but he does seem self-aware that he's been defending more than accusing. More self-awareness is a possible elim alignment indicative, I think. Mainly though, this is what triggered me in the first place - 

This re-affirmation looks very bad to me, like he was caught making a suspicious statement and when Devotary asked him in a way that it showed how ridiculous the statement was, he knew backing down would make it even more suspicious and he doubled down on it. Matrim's Dice

Some other thoughts -

I no longer v-read Striker. There's something weird going on between Striker/Araris/Tani and I'm not sure what. @StrikerEZ, why is Tani in your conf-V tier?

And Kas, I really can't say why I wanted to take more time to read Archer without mentioning it in conjunction with MR57. 

Edited by |TJ|
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Openwolfing and power wolfing are of the same blood or something

Base openwolfing is things like claiming elim 

Then you have anti-town things like lying or votes without reasoning things like that.

Then you have just big game overall agenda apparent openwolf which gets close to power wolfing. 

Then we take a left and arrive at embracing your inner wolf and being unapologetically wolfy

 

Striker buddy your tmi is showing

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Hm, I have my own reasons to suspect Mat, but that very specifically is... not really a point against him?

Like, Mat was 100% right. That's more or less exactly how it went down. Experience said he wanted to April Fool's Day claim elim as a joke, I encouraged him to do it but don't reveal it was a joke until there's some time for me to see how people react, and no one else said "lol that's dumb" so Experience went through with it.

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I think that Exp’s claim is NAI since it was likely was devised in their Empire doc and Aman is in that Empire doc :P But disregarding that I’ve gotten a village feel from his explanations on this page.

That's what he originally said, and I don't think it's as bad as TJ is painting it to be rn.

BUT

There was this exchange that happened yesterday:

Devo: 

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Alarm on Mat for speculating out of the blue that Exp's elim claim was pre-planned and voted on in the empire doc when apparently that's what happened.

Mat:

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I'm just perceptive and know Exp and Aman like their gambits :(

Me:

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Me? Like gambits? :ph34r:

TBF to Mat (who I suspect for completely separate reasons), Experience did claim Teoish in the same post he claimed Disruptor.

TBLF to Mat, I'm surprised he just chalked it up to "I know they like their gambits" and not "Experience claimed to be the same Empire as Aman before my post."

But yeah, if I live to D2 y'all already know where my vote is going regardless :P

I basically find it ironic that Mat was cautioning against us revealing doc mates to see if any elims would slip only to immediately figure out what me/Exp were up to. I almost think Archer reported it to the Disruptors immediately so Mat knew ahead of time (or at least that Archer told the Disruptors who was in his doc, and Mat quickly put 2 and 2 together); though if true, I'm extremely surprised he would let that info slip so easily?

It almost reminds me of like... how I instantly knew Meerkat was a Tineye after the fake Meerkat claim thing in AN8? Really suspicious information turnaround?

So... Matrim. I guess past me did tell present me to vote here today :P

ED1T:

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

Matrim's Dice (4): Kasimir, Illwei, |TJ|, Amanuensis
StrikerEZ (2): Araris Valerian, StrikerEZ
Illwei (2): The Baker, Tani
Devotary of Spontaneity (1): JNV

@StrikerEZ if you really want a tie, I'd recommend Devo.

Edited by Amanuensis
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39 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Like, Mat was 100% right. That's more or less exactly how it went down. Experience said he wanted to April Fool's Day claim elim as a joke, I encouraged him to do it but don't reveal it was a joke until there's some time for me to see how people react, and no one else said "lol that's dumb" so Experience went through with it.

Okay huh, I did not know this. Probably missed this reveal somewhere but till now I was thinking Exp claimed elim without the knowledge of his doc-mates. Because point of reaction-testing is that no one knows as they don't manufacture reactions. Which... is a point for e!Matrim (because the logical assumption for anyone to make was that the point of reaction-testing was that no one knew, but the fact that he guessed it was a voted thing hints at TMI from Archer, like Aman is saying). But it also points at e!Devotary because she puts in a slam-dunk-no-questioned-asked vote on Exp after the reveal which hints at the wanting to generate a similar reaction to what Kas expected villagers to react to his AG8 gambit, which further shows she knew Exp claim was incoming, again hinting at TMI from Archer. And now I'm unsure because this shows Devotary and Mat to be e/e but their on-thread interactions are very much not e/e and now I'm just confused. xD

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47 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

Okay huh, I did not know this. Probably missed this reveal somewhere but till now I was thinking Exp claimed elim without the knowledge of his doc-mates. Because point of reaction-testing is that no one knows as they don't manufacture reactions. Which... is a point for e!Matrim (because the logical assumption for anyone to make was that the point of reaction-testing was that no one knew, but the fact that he guessed it was a voted thing hints at TMI from Archer, like Aman is saying). But it also points at e!Devotary because she puts in a slam-dunk-no-questioned-asked vote on Exp after the reveal which hints at the wanting to generate a similar reaction to what Kas expected villagers to react to his AG8 gambit, which further shows she knew Exp claim was incoming, again hinting at TMI from Archer. And now I'm unsure because this shows Devotary and Mat to be e/e but their on-thread interactions are very much not e/e and now I'm just confused. xD

Yeah this is basically where I've been at :P both Devo and Mat's responses were sus for completely different reasons, and they've interacted on the topic enough that it feels not E/E so... safest call imo is to yeet them both

ED1T:

TBH, Illwei's response was very weird too in a way that makes me want to kill her?

Like, she basically told people not to react at all, which could be e!motivated to stop me from getting accurate village reads.

I also find her stances this game to be wildly different than the game @shadow1 and I played with 2 person neighborhoods.

In that, she was encouraging neighborhood reveals and she even did a reaction test by claiming to be neighbors with me.

So idk... pretty weird if you ask me.

Edited by Amanuensis
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2 hours ago, |TJ| said:

And now I'm unsure because this shows Devotary and Mat to be e/e but their on-thread interactions are very much not e/e

This is one of the reasons I didn't go gung-ho on Devo. Because she did make that Mat catch.

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

But the problem is basically that no one has talked about it (at least that I've seen) while I'm 100% sure the elims have been already thinking and strategizing with this in mind.

Felt like a moot point to me, since my immediate determination was to have enough padding in the immediate hours to rollover to avoid ties (I still like mid-cycle ties as they're great decision points) and I will side-eye anyone who last minute ties and MLs Villagers, even if that person is Striker who infamously has a mania for ties. I don't really give a damn if you love ties or if you think it's a great strategy if you end up actively hurting the Village that way, I am going for you.

If it's discussed, sure, maybe. Since we'd pretty much see the Elims having to take a hand in that discussion, which means that contact will leave a trace.

Or to put it another way: if I'm a Coinshot and I see that you are hurting the Village, I'm filing reckless endangerment charges against you and shooting you without giving a damn either. (This is where everyone reminds me Coinshots only exist in Tyrian, and the Dakhor gets one shot and that's it.)

But I play more conservatively where risk is concerned than Orlok, so that's more or less where I'm at.

2 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Which... is a point for e!Matrim (because the logical assumption for anyone to make was that the point of reaction-testing was that no one knew, but the fact that he guessed it was a voted thing hints at TMI from Archer, like Aman is saying). But it also points at e!Devotary because she puts in a slam-dunk-no-questioned-asked vote on Exp after the reveal which hints at the wanting to generate a similar reaction to what Kas expected villagers to react to his AG8 gambit, which further shows she knew Exp claim was incoming, again hinting at TMI from Archer.

Current state of my thoughts:

Devo:

  • Not sure I see her Village tell; have seen it in operation both in MR42 and QF59, has been absent in a few of her Evil games. (-)
    Counterpoint: Devo spent QF59 doing RP in order to throw some sand on her Elim tell where she's more invested in RP. I don't believe or expect Devo to not make some attempt to mask that tell, even if I am surprised it has lasted that long.
    Rejoinder: It's a Village tell though. Feels like masking would be E!Devo learning to produce it?

     
  • Reaction was anomalous; not sure I buy Devo's response on that being necessary to elicit Village or revealing reactions from others. (-)
    Counterpoint: An anomaly doesn't mean Evil. Illwei and TJ had an anomalous response to Meerkat, but that didn't entail they were Evil. There is often a spread of responses, so this could be an insufficient data problem - perhaps with more data points, this would be another Village response type.
    Rejoinder: What know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean. We can't do anything about the lack of further data, but the issue does remain that I find it odd that the set-up reeked of bait and gave me pause but not Devo. And that response is so textbook I almost find it implausible given the implausibility of the set-up itself.
     
  • Voted on Archer though, even in self-pres. (+)
    Counterpoint: If Devo has a role that's valuable to her team, E!Devo would likely need to self-pres on Archer anyway. (Or was Thaid a live option? Surely E!Devo would know that she could go on Thaid? Unless Devo was not expecting the Mat vote...which brings me back to the not E/E problem.)
     
  • Still like that Mat point. (+)
     
  • Archer potentially shielding her by suggesting the Elim responses were compromised via foreknowledge. (-/+)
    Counterpoint: I don't know though. I feel that sort of compromise is more likely to result in Devo immediately voting Exp to generate the textbook response. Which could mean that Archer was setting Devo up for a ML. Which is the point at which my brain just wants to identify the best place to collapse the superposition and then LAFO.

Mat:

  • More disengaged from the game than I've seen him - not interested in making pushes, only in defending players (-)
    Counterpoint: E!Mat doesn't play like that either, though. And he's explained he's short on time IRL.
    Rejoinder: I still find it odd. Strange time to develop a conscience about voting, while he did put in the effort to defend or at least do some amount of re-reading.

     
  • Dgaf about voting - feels like E!Mat could have easily just dropped a few suspicions and a vote in order to try to placate (+)
    Counterpoint: Didn't want to seem too eager-to-please? IDK, doesn't feel right.
     
  • Sudden late Thaid switch (-)
     
  • Specificity of bait response - claiming that it was developed in the Teo doc. (-)
    Counterpoint: Given that Elim TMI was on his mind - odd/ironic slip to make?
    Rejoinder: Odd/ironic but slips happen anyway. Just ask LG20!Kas...
     
  • Feels like he's trying to set me up for a ML if V!Devo dies if V!Devo (?!)
    Counterpoint: Kas, Gamma would be proud of your paranoia...

Agree that Mat and Devo don't seem E/E which is why I'm being thrown quite a bit by having to decide which of them is more likely to be Evil. My gut currently prefers Mat to Devo, which is wild given how badly I wanted Devo to die last Turn.

I'm sure I won't hold my breath about whether I'd change my mind again. As T.S. Eliot says:

Quote
There will be time to murder and create,
And time for all the works and days of hands
That lift and drop a question on your plate;
Time for you and time for me,
And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
And for a hundred visions and revisions,
Before the taking of a toast and tea. [...]
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

So how should I presume?

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4 hours ago, Illwei said:

Openwolfing and power wolfing are of the same blood or something

Base openwolfing is things like claiming elim 

Then you have anti-town things like lying or votes without reasoning things like that.

Then you have just big game overall agenda apparent openwolf which gets close to power wolfing. 

Then we take a left and arrive at embracing your inner wolf and being unapologetically wolfy

 

Striker buddy your tmi is showing

Open wolfing = openly claiming elim, and it’s clear it’s not a joke. Usually done when an elim feels it’s apparent that they have lost, or when there is no point in continuing the facade.

Everything else you mentioned is not open wolfing, it’s just accusing someone of acting like an elim.

And could you explain why you think I’m acting with TMI? Hard to argue against an argument with no reasoning stated.

Also, Devotary.

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14 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Open wolfing = openly claiming elim, and it’s clear it’s not a joke. Usually done when an elim feels it’s apparent that they have lost, or when there is no point in continuing the facade.

Everything else you mentioned is not open wolfing, it’s just accusing someone of acting like an elim.

And could you explain why you think I’m acting with TMI? Hard to argue against an argument with no reasoning stated.

Also, Devotary.

9 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Again, that's our used definition of open wolfing, but the original term doesn't necessarily require claiming elim; it just means not acting overtly village.

This is the part where you need to remember that Illwei and Aman are promiscuous unlike us one-forum bois and understand that they will do their best to import their MU terminology here and get us using it :eyes:

I suggest we maintain linguistic hegemony :eyes:

But the point stands, my joke aside. You're talking past each other.

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Yeah not a big deal, just want to clarify since Striker asked why I said he was doing it when he didn't claim :P

But there is an important distinction since in the manner I'm referring to, villagers can totally open wolf in the sense that they're not overtly village.

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Just now, Amanuensis said:

Yeah not a big deal, just want to clarify since Striker asked why I said he was doing it when he didn't claim :P

But there is an important distinction since in the manner I'm referring to, villagers can totally open wolf in the sense that they're not overtly village.

I would agree with this; just a bit 'why' that this is even happening in the first place :P

Quote

Matrim's Dice (4): Kasimir, Illwei, |TJ|, Amanuensis
StrikerEZ (1): Araris Valerian
Illwei (2): The Baker, Tani
Devotary of Spontaneity (2): JNV, StrikerEZ

For now >>

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Devotary

Quote

Matrim's Dice (3): Kasimir, Illwei, |TJ|
Devotary of Spontaneity (3): JNV, StrikerEZ, Amanuensis
Illwei (2): The Baker, Tani
StrikerEZ (1): Araris Valerian

Might as well see if anyone has a preference

Edited by Amanuensis
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15 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Now you've done it. Striker's going to have to lurk at EoD to ensure no one tries to break the tie! :o 

Alas, I won't actually be on at rollover. I've got rehearsal until ten minutes after, at least assuming the schedule of pieces stays the same as it has in the past.

36 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Again, that's our used definition of open wolfing, but the original term doesn't necessarily require claiming elim; it just means not acting overtly village.

Well, the original term doesn't make any sense to me, then. :P

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18 hours ago, Illwei said:

Tani choosing to focus in on this today is most likely E!indicative.

17 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Idk, my instincts say Tani is Village for it, but it depends if she felt like she had to bring it up to shield a teammate.\

Honestly, I just have no clue what's going on or what to do.

Illwei for now. I'll see what's happening and do stuff later.

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35 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Devotary (Going with my gut.)

Any reason why your gut is going with Devotary? Gut reads come with reason too, because rn it looks awful lot like a Mat-protection vote because it's unprompted, sudden, and without a reason. 

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