Long Game 84: A Sel United

[Kasimir]

37 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Inb4 E!TJ V!Devo xD

If he's Evil, I have a sacred duty to execute him swiftly.

Bros don't let bros suffer being Evil.

If he's Village though :sob:

I'm legit at the point where I will/have happily throw(n) out all my TJ thoughts into the thread for discussion/insight but I can't bear to vote him out :sob:

Sorry Devo I'm not saying I don't like you or I like you less than I like TJ

You're awesome and best IM

I just

My heart has irrationally attached itself to the idea of chilling with TJ and I don't know if I can stand MLing him :/

At this current point I don't think I want to help anyone kill him. I guess I could be persuaded to if the circumstances change. Or if I rethink this yet again and go back to paranoiding hard on him I guess.

Like. I get it. But. That's not how I want to play this game I legit signed up because my bros were gonna be in there. If not why am I putting myself through this again.

Can any of Baker's doc mates confirm if that Thaid vote was a 'wth' vote?

Am aware V!Devo has a tell and that it was operative from MR42 through QF59, not sure if I still see it now, but Devo also made an effort to mask one Evil tell she had, so at this point I'm just going to shrug and reiterate that I know nothing apparently.

[Amanuensis]

I'm too lazy to do it myself. Anyone got a vote count on hand or willing to muster one?

[Kasimir]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Vote Count:

• Illwei (2): The Baker, Tani
• |TJ| (2): Kasimir, Amanuensis
• StrikerEZ (1): Araris Valerian
• Araris Valerian (1): StrikerEZ

 

That seem right to everyone?

Theoretically it's this, just with myself and Aman on Devo. Whom I'm now unvoting because looking at the thread, want to put pressure here. May go back to Devo later.

@Matrim's Dice — I feel like when I look at the thread, you're being really passive. It's rich coming from me but: Mat, who do you suspect most right now? You've been noncommittal and more focused on defending players this Turn.

[---]

mat

[shadow1]

This post will be a critical reading of the thread on night 1 and day 2 so far, grouped by topic so it is not awful to read.

THOUGHTS INSPIRED BY NIGHT 1:

Kas Townread

I've seen a decent amount of suspicion directed towards kas. I have him a townread. This may be influenced by me seeing him post more in our empire chat, but I fundamentally do not think a wolf gets so invested in reads as he is. I would be shocked if he is faking this kind of frustration. In some cases, scum frustration can be channelled to look like town frustration (such as when a player is going to get eliminated and act frustrated on that), but given the specificity of his frustration on a specific read, I think it is very genuine in a necessarily town direction.

For example, these posts:

Quote

 

My point is that simply put, to condense everything I have said in late D1 in this game and would like even one goddamn player to please bloody read it and tell me if I'm trippin' because I'm this freakin' done being ignored yelling about my suspicions goddamnit! into a single sentence: it was a tainted set up, and you're overselling it's utility and looking the wrong way at the analysis. Or I might be tunneling...nice Vietcong grade tunnel here, of the sort I unleashed on Orlok in AG7.

 

Quote

And I do the one thing I should never do which is return to the Shard while still angry and suggest this:

I'm happy to do this. We lynch me tomorrow, or the Dakhor shoots me tonight. When I flip Village, then I want at least one player to at least entertain the thought that your response is an anomaly that doesn't make sense. 

I want at least one player to entertain the thought that the set up was fundamentally flawed from the goddamn get go and at least one player to consider the possibility that the analysis posted on it is off. 

I am happy to open up voting on myself if that is what it takes. 

Just consider an E!Devo world. Just consider an E!Bort world. 

Literally so much of my EoD has been about this. If dying is what it takes for my goddamned voice to be heard even a little, so be it. 

A small price to pay for my salvation.

He also was planning a self vote for a while - scum can do things like that, true, but everything in our chat and the thread shows a very complicated progression around trying to deal with his frustration in that way. I think he's town.

Baker Townread

Scum are cowards. They think they need to fake engagement to look like villagers, that they need to torture themselves over contriving fake reads. It really messes with their heads.

The Baker doesn't care about looking like a villager. He cares about his bread.

Also, I may be biased by the fact that the marble rye he made me is absolutely delicious. If we elim the baker, who will supply us with delicious loaves of bread? He seems to be the only person in this village actually contributing to our subsistence needs, it's a very villagery thing to do.

My general views on aman's play

What can I say. Aman is a very helpful townsperson, and posts sharper inquiries than anyone else in this game. I also get the feeling aman would be a formidable scum, and he told me last game that he pockets people effectively. We haven't pocketed each other this time (probably healthy) and while I have no current interest in eliminating aman, it's not a strong townread due to aman undoubtedly being capable of being a nice-manipulative. I can see instances of aman pocketing different players in the game - which hey, I do too, as both factions, just when I vibe with someone. But I suspect being friendly is not a reason to townread aman. This is like a meta read of aman's scum play I'm completely guessing at based on us having similar playstyles.

 

THOUGHTS INSPIRED BY DAY 2:

Araris voting for Striker

I find this interaction very interesting.

12 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

Okay, let’s start with the votes on Thaidakar.

Kas: Leaning village, stacking 2 elim votes early is odd, creating pressure is good

Mat: This vote would be elimmy if Thaidakar was elim, but he wasn’t. So it’s just null. He does later make a comment that Archer/Thaid is not e/e, which seems like a village call. Vote on Bort feels weird.

Aman: Same as Mat. Later Archer vote on him makes him look villageish, wouldn’t put it past Archer/Aman to distance/bus though.

Striker: Same, except he mentions disagreeing with Mat and Aman, which seems off when voting alongside them. I sort of like his move to Mat after. Not sure an elim would place a 4th (or whatever it was) vote on someone and then retract quickly, saying it was a joke. Not sure why he switched to Devo. Seems undercommitted to votes?

Okay, then there is the Bort/Tani thing. Like I said, my gut is slightly on village Bort, and I’m not a fan of how Tani had an opportunity to engage but didn’t. I know Tani lives in the lurker zone, but at the very least that is unhelpful to the village.

TJ doesn’t look great, especially if Striker is elim.

I like that Shadow agrees with me about poke votes not doing anything .

I’m thinking if Devotary were elim she would have followed Mat onto Thaid. Unless Mat is also elim.

So for now I’ll go on Striker. Not only is he suspicious in his own right, he has interactions with Mat, Devo, TJ, and Aman that are all interesting.

I haven't gone through and verified all the inferences here but at any rate, this is a good analysis to be doing and not a bad vote.

9 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Araris Valerian. I have been waiting for someone to come up with faulty reasoning on me, and he fits the bill. I’ve been trying to act weird to see if I could get someone to bite for the “easy exe” that is me at all times.

Striker's response is just... premeditated omgus? Striker doesn't suggest Araris' read is weak on its analytical merits. Araris' followup to this is correct. The engagement continues:

7 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Okay maybe I phrased it in a weird way. It wasn’t that I was just trying to look suspicious, it’s that I was trying to do it in specific ways that I thought only elims would bite. Things that others could see and not necessarily think suspicious while elims might see it and see me as an easy target.

This sounds impossible. The wolves have an objective of trying to look like villagers and think like villagers, so you can't act like bait to wolves without being bait to villagers. A little siren will go in their wolfy heads... "this would look suspicious if I piled on, I'd better not!"

Quite frankly I find this hard to believe is a genuine distinction you believe you can make, it seems counter to fundamental features of the game.

Tani's silly suspicions

7 hours ago, Tani said:

Ok. Araris. Sri.

People in the Rose Empire: Striker, Araris, Baker, Illwei, me. Striker and Araris gave vocal support Baker said lots of bread. Illwei hasn't said anything about it yet. Baker has previously used the wrong color and was corrected. I think it was probably Baker who misused Araris's color. @The Baker ?

Are you seriously contending that this was malicious?

For 'misusing a colour' to be scum motivated, e!baker, who thus far has been focused on operating a bakery, would have to actually think this will somehow create a permanent sort of misunderstanding. It can obviously be easily clarified. There is also a very obvious counternarrative that it's, oh, an accident. If true at all. I also don't know why you're jumping to the conclusion that it would be the Baker who did this... if deliberate, could it not be a frame? Would e!baker really do it once in play daylight first, just to make it obvious when they do it maliciously?

This is a horrible line of reasoning and about the least likely explanation for these events.

Oh, and then this:

7 hours ago, Tani said:

Illwei Baker

Thanks for telling that it was you

@Tani Scum illwei would not tell you this if it was scummy! Obviously! Since when is the game so easy?

It's something not indicative you're reading into, and the read is even worse directed towards illwei than it was as a vague suspicion.

Also, does the fact that you almost just falsely used this 'evidence' against the baker give you any pause about its reliability?

Questions to Aman

Aman, since you ask lots of questions I figure you might like to answer some too. As much as I say you're probably a sneaky scum, you know, I might like to catch you if you are

@Amanuensis

On 2022-04-04 at 4:53 PM, Amanuensis said:

Kasimir

Bros don't let bros suffer being evil. I hear your cries.

Spoken like a true psycho killer 

How is this helpful to support someone voting themselves? What do you get out of this?

On 2022-04-04 at 9:02 PM, Amanuensis said:

 

@Matrim's Dice are you assuming you doc has no elims in it or do you think the 3rd person in your doc is more likely elim than Devo?

 

You sometimes ask questions like this. I don't really see how they are useful, or how a player can do anything but speculate on the answers. Curious what the point is?

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

TBH more than the Disruptor thing, I appreciate TJ going though his process in doc a lot; it's more than I've seen in thread and that's the main reason he's in my PoE

Devo currently the better yeet by far.

Why devo? Genuinely want to know where this case is at.

Also

7 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Orlok is Malkier #3, who I policy Village read for now and who I'm worried has pocketed me with some AoE discussion (and it turns out that Shadow is really into AoE2 too, so she's amazing  )

I am quite thrilled that I've found a community that loves brandon sanderson, mafia, and now AOE2. How can all these people share all my specific nerdy interests? Thanks for the invite aman

[Mat]

32 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

@Matrim's Dice — I feel like when I look at the thread, you're being really passive. It's rich coming from me but: Mat, who do you suspect most right now? You've been noncommittal and more focused on defending players this Turn.

All true statements.

I am playing more passively than usual, I’ll own that. I’ve been wanting to change that, get more involved- I think I’ve done better this cycle, even if I’ve been defending more than accusing- but when getting involved requires lots of backreading, and I don’t have a huge amount of free time, it kind of just keeps… not happening.

My highest suspicion is probably Bort or Bread, but I’m noncommittal and haven’t voted because I don’t like how little those are. I’m hoping to solidify something during the reread that hasn’t happened yet  I do know though that I generally disagree with the Devo read and to a lesser extent the TJ read, I don’t think a bus is the most likely option.

I could see e!Illwei but also eh

[shadow1]

Also I feel a little scorned that this site has decided my social status is now 'darkeyes'... like at least I'm not skaa anymore but jeez, can't I at least be a low dahn lighteyes?

[JNV]

Hi hi hi sorry for not being on yesterdya I had like a million things to do sadness but Im here now yay now thoughts on people cause people exist 

• Matrim they had a weird empire position then were swayed by Shadow even though Shadow said basicaly what I said with fancier words and prettier grammar which isnt really hmm just grr cause I had words and you didnt listen it kinda feels like 'evil person realizing controversial opinion jumping ship' especially with how  combative they were with Amanuensis askin gfor reasons and then like they instantly knew the plan was devised in the empire doc even though the only public info was Experience and Amanuensis were both Teo and that late Thaidakar vote 
  • I used to want to vote you but Illwei just ninjad with a no reason vote on you even though they said they agreed with me about no reeason votes being grrr so that looks worse on them so maybe I wont vote you just for that
• Striker well they did try to vote Thaidakar which of course is hmmmm and a lot of their early posts just ping wrong for some reason specially the one where hteyre saying why Matrim and Amanuensis seem suspiciious 
• Illwei they feel kinda different from other games usually theyre around more and such but havent seen too much of them tentative  they feel hmm this game tonally kinda weird also against empire sharing which I think is scummy in a 3 or 4 infiltrated empires world cause in that case hiding empire lists only hurts village plus  they seem to have the same opnion matrim had about tmi in different words which is kinda wierd honestly not really sus but weird solid grrr questio nmark on Illwei with a side of hmm
• Baker Im kinda reading them postiively cause theyre actually using the bread to talk a bit more but that might be the simple happiness of not talking to a brick (bread) wall also the constraints of not beingable to give any explanation and writing it off as 'oh I can only talk in bread pics' is kinda inherently grrr and somewhat hmm even if its not sus necessarily cause that just kinda hurts us ya know like I appreciate the effort but I can think of lots of ways bread pictures could be turned into something informative you could have little menus or recipe cards for bread that actually have reasons in lines and stuff you could do morse code with bread slices and loaves for dot and dash you could do moodboards of bread theres just a lot of ways to help that you arent giving so youre not realky hmm but you are grrrrrrrr
• Sibling theyve shown up a few times and just off thread stuff Id be a bit hm but they have decent doc interactions some positive vibs there solid nullish
• Bort so the case against them is based on past behavior poke vote something theyve done as evil in the past lots plus that really weird Araris vote and such I can dfeinitely see it but kinda less willing on that cause I wasnt around for that definitely an option to keep in mind if my current stronger suspicion falls through
• Tani  honestly forgot they were in this game before looking at the player list oh they revealed an empire list without getting clear consent from every member on that list thats pretty hmmmmm like I dont really know why an elim would want to do that and I think in a distro where elims do know all the empires cause 3 or 4 infiltrated ones theyd want to keep it on the down low so not really sus just kinda grrrr plus eyebrow raise also they said Baker used the wrong color how did baker use color when theyre only posting bread do they dye the bread different colors thats kinda wierd could you elaborate or someone else in the same doc corroborate or something also also the vote on Araris was cause they thought Araris didnt say why but whne Illwei fessed up they said why they didnt want sharing and Tani still voted seems a little too convenient honestly seems a bit hmm but maybe this is me being annoyed that they didnt get clear cosnent and projecting that on their character in a fit of accidntal slander 
• Kasimir the whole thing about being willin to die for people to listen to them rang really village to me plus they had really good thorough poist about Devotary and bort really appreciate it friendo
• Amanuensis has good doc vibes or at least had good doc vibes how am I supposed to feel out your doc vibes if you wont get on the doc please Im lonely  I have a ghost and a barely there sibling for company but overall v positive v nice love you friendo but also 
• Devotary ok so the Devotary case is founded on that Experience vote while saying its hard to believe an elim would do this like I said earlier its not a case of 'this is bad villae play so its evil' its a case of 'this is bad play so its not really indicative of anything' but the kicker here is they voted Archer why would they do that with a perfectly good Thaidakar right there but also theres a thing where if the village dies the immediate choice is the other wagon so like Kasimir said if Devotary has a role suddenly best move is to kill Archer and be like 'oh no evil here couldnt be me' and I just feel like that vote on Experience is evil or in the best case not thought out very well bad plays are not necessarily evil honestly Id say theyre slightly less likely to be evil honestly cause evil people try to be careful and less um how do I say this less... careless? with their actions and reputation and such and I just dont get that vote it bugs me 
• Orlok have they posted yet not sure on that let me check ok they havent posted yet but Baker said they were 'bread' but then again they did sort of do everyone alive might be doing some sort of innocent til proven guilty policy hope to see you soon
• Shadow so i agree with a lot of what they said in that D1 post that was cool lots of good thoughts positive vibes from them they just ninjad me with good thoughts 
• TJ so the main (only?) case against them is their confusion in their emprie doc and Im a bit hesitant to trust paraphrasings of things I cnat see very easy to misportray especially accidentally and bsides I can imagine somene making that mistake so Im not going to say this clears or ocndemns them its just a thing maybe either alingmnet thing and I dont think its a big deal just carry on then again Kasimir did say they were trimming some illegla speculation so maybe its a bit worse than I think it is I dont really think its a big deal 
  • Um also I kinda think this whole thing is cause Kasimir got stuck in the idea that one of their bros is evil as a doomsday scenario and with the slightest hint of weird stuff going on is like 'oh no its true theyre evil now Im sad' which fair but also theres better cases for evil people ones just take what TJ said as something not really alignment bound just an oh whoops thing
  • Oh ok reading back again they did vote Thaidakar I guess that combined with doc stuff does make a recipe for evil double double toil and trouble I can see it Im comfy with it not going to pursue it with other cases that I can interact with more

If I forgot someone or left someones thing in the middle of a sentence let me know I had to stop halfway through and eat dinner this took like four hours gah 

EDIT Im an idiot forgot to actually vote that one suspicion this is what I get for posting late at night grr Devotary 

Edited April 6, 2022 by JNV

[Amanuensis]

50 minutes ago, shadow1 said:

Questions to Aman

Aman, since you ask lots of questions I figure you might like to answer some too. As much as I say you're probably a sneaky scum, you know, I might like to catch you if you are

@Amanuensis

1) How is this helpful to support someone voting themselves? What do you get out of this?

2) You sometimes ask questions like this. I don't really see how they are useful, or how a player can do anything but speculate on the answers. Curious what the point is?

3) Why devo? Genuinely want to know where this case is at.

1) That was more of a joke with Kas. We both hate being wolves. We have a kind of pact going where if we believe the other is a wolf, we will do whatever we can to put the other out of their misery. I was half referencing that pact, half trying to see if he'd react in a way that might tell me his alignment. I'm still uncertain, which is part of the problem

2) This kinda connects to answer 1, but I'll often ask people things or say things not because the question itself is important, but just to see how people answer / react the question / statement in a general sense. I like to think about it like casting out a net, except instead of fish I'm looking for microreads. Kinda like my (albeit sometimes off) soul reads, I'm pretty good at getting accurate microreads / tone reads. For that question in particular, I want to understand the mindset behind the player. I suspect that most wolves, for example, will be very wary about casting suspicion on their doc mates - especially after the D1 push Archer tried to do on me - because it's a form of communication outside the thread they can use to pocket other players, sway their votes, and gather information.

3) I mostly work by negative space hunting tbh, which is basically "find as many townreads as I can and start yeeting in the null category" until I find someone I very specifically feel is a wolf. Devo in particular is a player I always feel like I have trouble reading, but I also feel like when she is Town, it becomes clear after a certain amount of initiative and activity, whereas when she's not-Town aligned, I don't ever find anything overtly suspicious, but I just fail to find that certain je nais se quoise, if that makes sense. As of right now I'm not getting that town-aligned feeling, and I'm not feeling specifically worse about any other slot, so that's where I'm sitting atm with hopes of v!Devotary coming in and giving that feeling.

ED1T:

7 minutes ago, JNV said:

Amanuensis has good doc vibes or at least had good doc vibes how am I supposed to feel out your doc vibes if you wont get on the doc please Im lonely  I have a ghost and a barely there sibling for company but overall v positive v nice love you friendo but also 

Oh right sorry will get in now my WIM for this game has been unusually low and I keep getting distracted by other things (doesn't help I'm in two other games at the same time + I've played a lot of mafia lately, so I'm a little burned out).

Edited April 6, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir]

10 minutes ago, JNV said:

TJ so the main (only?) case against them is their confusion in their emprie doc

Hey JNV - to be clear, the confusion in our Empire doc actually looks good for TJ, in my view, not the other way around. It's the Thaid vote I've been side-eying him for. And thanks for doing that reads list, I enjoy your bullet formatting!  

Edited to add:

5 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

1) That was more of a joke with Kas. We both hate being wolves. We have a kind of pact going where if we believe the other is a wolf, we will do whatever we can to put the other out of their misery. I was half referencing that pact, half trying to see if he'd react in a way that might tell me his alignment. I'm still uncertain, which is part of the problem

Tbh that's me @ TJ and Orlok this game too. I'm committed to make sure my bros are having fun, and sometimes my bros give me kas for concern.

We really need to talk about this after the game, or when one of us is dead, because boy is your reaction throwing me hard. I'm in the position now where I'm really wondering if you're Evil and I'm a convenient set-up for eventually, or if for some reason, I've given you more cause for paranoia than Shadow has, which is deeply confusing to me and my worldview

Seriously, have thought I've been pretty good about telegraphing my alignment this time, but what do I know  I'm aware we both work with emotion but unlike you and Shadow, I can't method act - I stick more with choosing to show things or concealing them.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Kasimir

[Mat]

8 minutes ago, JNV said:

Matrim they had a weird empire position then were swayed by Shadow even though Shadow said basicaly what I said with fancier words and prettier grammar which isnt really hmm just grr cause I had words and you didnt listen it kinda feels like 'evil person realizing controversial opinion jumping ship' especially with how  combative they were with Amanuensis askin gfor reasons and then like they instantly knew the plan was devised in the empire doc even though the only public info was Experience and Amanuensis were both Teo and that late Thaidakar vote 

I don’t think you can cite my stance on Empires as suspicious unless you’re also willing to elim read Illwei and TJ. Saying that I only changed because of shadow is misrepresenting my though process, even if unintentionally- enough people had said something similar, you included, but shadow’s happened to be the one I quoted and responded to.

[shadow1]

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

1) That was more of a joke with Kas. We both hate being wolves. We have a kind of pact going where if we believe the other is a wolf, we will do whatever we can to put the other out of their misery. I was half referencing that pact, half trying to see if he'd react in a way that might tell me his alignment. I'm still uncertain, which is part of the problem

2) This kinda connects to answer 1, but I'll often ask people things or say things not because the question itself is important, but just to see how people answer / react the question / statement in a general sense. I like to think about it like casting out a net, except instead of fish I'm looking for microreads. Kinda like my (albeit sometimes off) soul reads, I'm pretty good at getting accurate microreads / tone reads. For that question in particular, I want to understand the mindset behind the player. I suspect that most wolves, for example, will be very wary about casting suspicion on their doc mates - especially after the D1 push Archer tried to do on me - because it's a form of communication outside the thread they can use to pocket other players, sway their votes, and gather information.

3) I mostly work by negative space hunting tbh, which is basically "find as many townreads as I can and start yeeting in the null category" until I find someone I very specifically feel is a wolf. Devo in particular is a player I always feel like I have trouble reading, but I also feel like when she is Town, it becomes clear after a certain amount of initiative and activity, whereas when she's not-Town aligned, I don't ever find anything overtly suspicious, but I just fail to find that certain je nais se quoise, if that makes sense. As of right now I'm not getting that town-aligned feeling, and I'm not feeling specifically worse about any other slot, so that's where I'm sitting atm with hopes of v!Devotary coming in and giving that feeling.

Okay, this is all very fair. Not sure I can relate to 3) without the meta but I can imagine that makes sense to you.

Also I'm not entirely sure (2) works but I'm certainly not against trying I used to have quite a similar style. Do you always play like this (specifically with the style of questioning)? I didn't notice you doing it as much in the last game we played.

10 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I don’t think you can cite my stance on Empires as suspicious unless you’re also willing to elim read Illwei and TJ. Saying that I only changed because of shadow is misrepresenting my though process, even if unintentionally- enough people had said something similar, you included, but shadow’s happened to be the one I quoted and responded to.

Also, like, even if he's saying something brilliant, if there is no organization or punctuation to the comment, people will likely not really understand it or find it convincing. Like saying something more clearly is actually a very standard way to change someone's mind.

[Elbereth]

1 hour ago, shadow1 said:

For 'misusing a colour' to be scum motivated, e!baker, who thus far has been focused on operating a bakery, would have to actually think this will somehow create a permanent sort of misunderstanding. It can obviously be easily clarified. There is also a very obvious counternarrative that it's, oh, an accident. If true at all. I also don't know why you're jumping to the conclusion that it would be the Baker who did this... if deliberate, could it not be a frame? Would e!baker really do it once in play daylight first, just to make it obvious when they do it maliciously?

Note that intentionally using someone else’s color in an Empire doc (or any doc in general, really) would also be very much not allowed. Please do not use another person’s color to impersonate them, for any reason.  

21 minutes ago, JNV said:

EDIT Im an idiot forgot to actually vote that one suspicion this is what I get for posting late at night grr Devotary 

This is a friendly reminder to everyone that you should not edit votes into posts ever please! This particular instance was harmless (the vote is already  marked in the spreadsheet), but editing a vote in is a great way to get it missed, and we’ve already seen once this game how much of a problem that can cause.  

Anyway, this is your friendly IM, checking in to remind you that I’m here and happy to talk! 

[Kasimir]

3 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

This is a friendly reminder to everyone that you should not edit votes into posts ever please! This particular instance was harmless (the vote is already  marked in the spreadsheet), but editing a vote in is a great way to get it missed, and we’ve already seen once this game how much of a problem that can cause.  

Let's clarify this one because I know we both had a conversation about it in private after the BT, but:

For the past year, I've been unthinkingly adopting what seems to have become an informal (if widespread) policy - if you edit votes in, please @ the GM so they know. I notice the rules prefer a double post to editing in votes, even with the @. Both for this game and going forwards, is it possible to secure some sense of what to do? Thanks  

[Amanuensis]

51 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

We really need to talk about this after the game, or when one of us is dead, because boy is your reaction throwing me hard. I'm in the position now where I'm really wondering if you're Evil and I'm a convenient set-up for eventually, or if for some reason, I've given you more cause for paranoia than Shadow has, which is deeply confusing to me and my worldview

Seriously, have thought I've been pretty good about telegraphing my alignment this time, but what do I know  I'm aware we both work with emotion but unlike you and Shadow, I can't method act - I stick more with choosing to show things or concealing them.

I will say that I would never try to misyeet you as a wolf, I would just NK you or try to pocket you, even if I was sure it would fail, just for the fun of it. If you've telegraphed you're Village this game, that's a me problem rather than a you problem, so don't sweat it  I just am not super invested in the game rn. Doesn't help that I'm sad Experience got NK'd before me =\ he definitely was more into this game than I am presently feeling and that makes me feel bad for not scaring the elims enough - or scaring them too much that they think I'd get protected - to go for him instead

15 minutes ago, shadow1 said:

Also I'm not entirely sure (2) works but I'm certainly not against trying I used to have quite a similar style. Do you always play like this (specifically with the style of questioning)? I didn't notice you doing it as much in the last game we played.

The style of question is me 100%, I just usually do more with it. The neighborhood game was a lil different because I basically didn't know any player but Illwei and Schweppes, whereas here I can rely on past interactions with players to sway my vibes. I also had a lot more WIM then, but I'm presently burned out on mafia + feel a bit of survivor's guilt - especially because of the aforementioned lack of WIM.

ED1T:

All in all I'm just trying to have fun and mutedly solve along the way at my own pace. Don't feel like being a town leader this game especially, and I'd not mind getting killed tonight if the elims are down to shoot me

Edited April 6, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

I will say that I would never try to misyeet you as a wolf, I would just NK you or try to pocket you, even if I was sure it would fail, just for the fun of it.

Not even for the fun of both of us going head to head in a threadbrawl? :eyes:

I admit it's more paranoia than anything - but as I said, I'm really being badly thrown off, and would probably ask after the game or after one of us is dead

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

If you've telegraphed you're Village this game, that's a me problem rather than a you problem, so don't sweat it 

Not sweating it; more confused than anything but determined to stick to my plan of chilling with my bros  

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Doesn't help that I'm sad Experience got NK'd before me =\ he definitely was more into this game than I am presently feeling and that makes me feel bad for not scaring the elims enough - or scaring them too much that they think I'd get protected - to go for him instead

Tbh, I'm not sure that's true. Given the current meta, I think it's quite likely players would try not to N1 V!Aman (sorry >>) from the desire to give you some time to enjoy the game, which has less to do with the amount of scaring you're doing. I think it's a good/healthy meta shift, but RIP Exp :/ (Though huh. That's interesting, seeing as I've been used to seeing N1 low info kills from Team Evil. Someone's switching up...)

[The Baker]

16 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

I'm bored and your schitck amuses me so I'm going to ask you a few things:

1) If you had to describe your alignment (Diplomat or Disruptor) with a picture of bread, what would that picture be?

Spoiler

16 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

2) Is the bread (or how you use bread) capable of lying or misleading us?

Spoiler

 

16 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

3) Do you bake anything other than bread? Will your pictures in this game always be plain bread? How do you feel about bagels, croissants, and english muffins? How about naan?

 

Spoiler

 

16 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

4) How much should we realistically be reading into your bread pictures?

Spoiler

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by The Baker
bread.

[Amanuensis]

NGL I believe the Honest Abe Toast, Baker lock town.

Also naan ftw.

ED1T:

On a more serious note re:Baker, I actually do think he's just Town. He's being more forthright than I'd expect with this kind of schtick - the bread/bad buckets - and even without knowing his reasons, I don't find myself disagreeing with most of his takes.

Still would prefer him to give more detailed thoughts eventually - especially near the endgame - but I do find his posts entertaining / feel they break up the monotony in a fun way.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir]

19 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

All in all I'm just trying to have fun and mutedly solve along the way at my own pace. Don't feel like being a town leader this game especially, and I'd not mind getting killed tonight if the elims are down to shoot me

This is one sentiment I'm echoing. The trap I fell to in LG83 was getting concerned and proactively stepping forward to drive Village discussion when I really wanted a quiet, RPful chill game. If I don't learn to say no to those feelings or to any sense of obligation to the Village in a game when I get to chill and banter and talk AoE2 with Orlok and Shadow and hang out in the F.R.I.E.N.D.S doc (I may have redecorated it extensively...) with memes, song parodies, and some light solving—when will I?

Then I get what I did which was a damned year and four months of Village anchor even when I don't want to be doing that.

When I opened the doc to discover I was with Shadow, Orlok, and TJ, it felt like a sign from the SE gods.

Chill, some solving/discussion/as much as I feel like doing, and keep my bros happy, healthy, and sane.

You count too, ThreadPMBro, even if you have a bad choice of empire  

F.R.I.E.N.D.S clearly superior  

[StrikerEZ]

@Amanuensis Because I still don't know how to quote and switch pages and all that. I don't think I understand the way you were using openwolf about me on page 3. Isn't open wolfing openly admitting to being an elim? Unless I missed something, I definitely didn't do that. Unless you're mixing me up with Experience (and even then he turned out village, so that doesn't feel like an accurate use of the word openwolf to me)

Here's some quick and dirty reads based off of vague impressions I remember so far:

Conf town, clearly:

Spoiler

JNV, The Baker, Tani, Amanuensis, shadow1

Totally wolf:

Spoiler

Illwei, Devotary of Spontaneity, Araris Valerian

????

Spoiler

The Sibling, Matrim's Dice, Bort, Orlok Tsubodai, TJ

Kasimir:

Spoiler

Kasimir, because I can no longer easily read him since I have seen both of his recent elim games on the teammate side of things

First two categories are pretty self explanatory for what they mean. The ???? category is for any players where I have no opinion on them or didn't feel confident enough to put them in either of the other categories, but still have thoughts on (Think Bort is leaning village, leaning elim on Mat). And then there's Kas

Also, here's a new VC, since the one I got from Ash awhile ago is now outdated:

Matrim's Dice (2): Kasimir, Illwei
StrikerEZ (2): Araris Valerian, StrikerEZ
Devotary of Spontaneity (2): Amanuensis, JNV
Illwei (2): The Baker, Tani

Yes, this is a vote on myself to create a 4 way tie

Edited April 6, 2022 by StrikerEZ
removed the list formatting in the Kasimir category because I didn't mean to have it there

[Amanuensis]

Oh right, ties are a problem we need to deal with now. Hm.

7 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I don't think I understand the way you were using openwolf about me on page 3. Isn't open wolfing openly admitting to being an elim?

Oh yeah so like, that definition of openwolf is how we've used it historically in SE. But the true definition is a wolf that doesn't even bother obscuring their alignment in how they push agenda.

You can read this "guide" to openwolfing if you want to know more

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/20826-18-A-Practical-Guide-to-Open-Wolfing-(by-Mantichora)

And technically, villagers can "openwolf" this way, it's more of a very direct playstyle kinda thing.

Illwei probably knows more about openwolfing than I do tbh

Edited April 6, 2022 by Amanuensis

[StrikerEZ]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Oh right, ties are a problem we need to deal with now. Hm.

By problem do you mean incredible feature that I am very glad has been added to this game?

[Amanuensis]

5 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

By problem do you mean incredible feature that I am very glad has been added to this game?

I do actually prefer multi-death ties versus RNG ties. Very high risk, high reward feature that can greatly benefit the Village and Elims both.

But the problem is basically that no one has talked about it (at least that I've seen) while I'm 100% sure the elims have been already thinking and strategizing with this in mind.

So yeah. We could theoretically collectively decide to clear multiple slots at once if we decide the information gain is worth the risk of hastening parity.

I am very much not opposed to Matrim/Devo/Illwei all dying today, FWIW.

[StrikerEZ]

9 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I do actually prefer multi-death ties versus RNG ties. Very high risk, high reward feature that can greatly benefit the Village and Elims both.

But the problem is basically that no one has talked about it (at least that I've seen) while I'm 100% sure the elims have been already thinking and strategizing with this in mind.

So yeah. We could theoretically collectively decide to clear multiple slots at once if we decide the information gain is worth the risk of hastening parity.

I am very much not opposed to Matrim/Devo/Illwei all dying today, FWIW.

I've mentioned it a few times, but no real discussion has happened about it, as far as I'm aware.

But yeah, definitely agreed about the usefulness of multi-kill ties. There is a danger of getting closer to parity. But at the same time, the wider a net we cast, the more likely we get an elim. And the elims either all have to go on one train to make sure none of them end up in the tie, or spread out their votes on multiple trains, and risk a tie happening anyway. I'm personally a big fan of going for as big of a tie as possible.

[Amanuensis]

If y'all want a quick win, we could just 1 vote every player but me