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Apprentice speculation


Serack

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So in the commentary for SP4 Brandon drops that Hoid had 3 apprentices, "of which Sigzil is the one you know the best."  He also says "...I started working on what is the story of Wit’s apprentices and their explorations of the Cosmere."

I want to do some speculation on the nature of the other 2 apprentices.  I think the above 2 quotes potentially imply 2 important things. 

  1. "Know best" implies that we know something about and have probably even seen on screen, one or both of the others, just nowhere near as much as for Sig.  
  2. "Their explorations" imply that more than one of them are worldhoppers that influence more than one cosmere world.  I.E. they are still kicking around and relevant.  

Here are my guesses

Worldbringers 

It has long been speculated that the Wordbringers were founded by Hoid much like the Worldsingers.  Some even theorize Feruchemy was a result of his influence on the Terris people when he founded them.  I don't think it's much of a leap from this supposition to theorize that one of Hoid's apprentices was a Worldbringer.  However, it's realllly difficult to come up with someone from pre-The-Lord-Ruler times who is still kicking around.

Khriss

It dawned on me that Bandon has said that Khriss knows more about the Cosmere than Hoid, which resonates with the "their explorations" part of #2 above, and meshes really well with why Hoid says he recruited Sigzil:

Quote

“You always wanted the answers,” Wit said to him.  “That’s why I took you on.  You thought you could find them, tease them out, write them down and catalogue the world.  So certain you could find every one, if you just tried hard enough…”

Speculative possibilities:

Hoid has been around in pretty much all our stories so it's remotely possible he mucked around in any of those worlds and made an apprentice.  

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I'm not sure if she's disqualified, since we may know her better than Sigzil, but Shai seems like a strong candidate of a character in the same vein of potentially becoming one of Hoid's worldhopping apprentices after her standalone story has completed. We know she did track down Hoid eventually, whether off on Sel or off, and Brandon has had plans for her outside of a planned Emperor's Soul sequel and that we will see more of her , even if he doesn't write the sequel.

I do like the Worldbringers idea, potentially giving Hoid a kandra apprentice out there (if the Worldbringer in question was one of the First Generation Feruchemists). Although a regular, boring old Feruchemist also has pretty good story potential, I guess.

EDIT: Forgot to link the "really cool kandra character" Brandon's waiting to fit into a book, which would be my candidate for Hoid's apprentice #3.

Edited by Pagerunner
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2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

I'm not sure if she's disqualified, since we may know her better than Sigzil, but Shai seems like a strong candidate of a character in the same vein of potentially becoming one of Hoid's worldhopping apprentices after her standalone story has completed. We know she did track down Hoid eventually, whether off on Sel or off, and Brandon has had plans for her outside of a planned Emperor's Soul sequel and that we will see more of her , even if he doesn't write the sequel.

I do like the Worldbringers idea, potentially giving Hoid a kandra apprentice out there (if the Worldbringer in question was one of the First Generation Feruchemists). Although a regular, boring old Feruchemist also has pretty good story potential, I guess.

Wow, I was proud of my Khriss idea, but you really brought a lot to the discussion! 

Thanks in particular for sharing the WoB's about Shai

I had forgotten that the original Kandra were pre TLR ascension.  Did they make it through the catacandre?  They seem too disengaged for the role.

edit to add:  @Pagerunner I just saw your edit, thanks for the additional WoBs.  I'll add that "one you know best" may refer to knowing the apprenticeship the best.  We may know Shai better than Sigzil, but not what happened between her and Hoid after she tracked him down.  So I don't consider her disqualified.  

Edited by Serack
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Nikki Savage is my guess for one of them. Toward the end of the New Ascendancy broadsheet story in BoM, she mentions that, after her confrontation with the Haunted Man (Nazh) she was approached by a young white-haired man who offered to tell her a story. She declined, but I doubt Hoid would give up after just one attempt. She also fits as someone that we know, but don't know as well as Sigzil.

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8 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Nikki Savage is my guess for one of them. Toward the end of the New Ascendancy broadsheet story in BoM, she mentions that, after her confrontation with the Haunted Man (Nazh) she was approached by a young white-haired man who offered to tell her a story. She declined, but I doubt Hoid would give up after just one attempt. She also fits as someone that we know, but don't know as well as Sigzil.

that would probably happen in a boat load of mummies.

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5 hours ago, Serack said:

I had forgotten that the original Kandra were pre TLR ascension.  Did they make it through the catacandre?  They seem too disengaged for the role.

I always thought they weren't disengaged, but that the Seconds had basically locked them away and blocked their engagement.

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Any chance one could be Sixth of the Dusk? We know from the Sixth 2 reading that he’s going to be stepping into a perpendicularity, so there’s a chance that he meets Hoid. If one is Kriss, and two is Sigzil, then we have one from quite a long time ago, one from generally current events, and one from the furthest future we have so far. Also, Sixth is amazing, and I think that would be cool. 

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Brandon SP4 Spoiler stream

 

Spoiler

Hoid looks for ineffable qualities in apprentices or their potential.

Hoid has taught may people in the Cosmere but has 3 main apprentices

Hoid was considering strongly Shallan for an apprentice

Hoid tried to teach Kaladin, but Kaladin refused to listen. He is highly competent in some areas but lacks in others

The 17th shard considers what Hoid did to Nomad an example that he's amonster and needs to be stopped.

Hoid and Nomad held the same Dawnshard.

We have only seen one apprentice so far, meaning Khriss/Shallan/Any major character is not an apprentice

 

 

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4 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Brandon SP4 Spoiler stream

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Hoid looks for ineffable qualities in apprentices or their potential.

Hoid has taught may people in the Cosmere but has 3 main apprentices

Hoid was considering strongly Shallan for an apprentice

Hoid tried to teach Kaladin, but Kaladin refused to listen. He is highly competent in some areas but lacks in others

The 17th shard considers what Hoid did to Nomad an example that he's amonster and needs to be stopped.

Hoid and Nomad held the same Dawnshard.

We have only seen one apprentice so far, meaning Khriss/Shallan/Any major character is not an apprentice

 

 

Does this mean Hoid still has access to the dawnshard he held? Cause it kinda seems like he was able to give him the dawnshard

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Apprentice theories have been pretty much quashed by the stream. Of the remaining two, one we haven't met, and one Brandon couldn't remember if we met. So that eliminates all the major characters we'd been discussing.

23 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said:

Does this mean Hoid still has access to the dawnshard he held? Cause it kinda seems like he was able to give him the dawnshard

I suspect that Rysn's Dawnshard is the same as Hoid's/Sigzil's, and it's been passing hands recently. The very interesting thing was Brandon's particular phrasing about whether Hoid/Sigzil had the same Dawnshard. We'll need to wait for the transcription, but in the moment, it made me think that Hoid has his old Dawnshard back. So I'm thinking the chain of ownership was something like: Hoid, one of the original Sixteen (who used it for the Shattering), someone on Ashyn, the mural, Rysn, Sigzil, and finally back to Hoid. The Night Brigade is chasing Sigzil since they think he has the Dawnshard; but if they catch him, they'll realize he doesn't have it, and then they'll realize Hoid has had it the whole time. That's why Sigzil has saved "the cosmere" or "just Wit"; by taking the heat off Hoid so he can hide the Dawnshard.

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10 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said:

Does this mean Hoid still has access to the dawnshard he held? Cause it kinda seems like he was able to give him the dawnshard

Quote

Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin - WOK Letter to Frost

Quote

Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead? - WOR letter to Hoid

Sigzil claims that Hoid did this to him, and Hoid doesn't deny it so I'd hazard a guess that Hoid had some form of access to the Dawnshard to give to Sigzil but that he can no longer use it himself therefore he facilitated Sigzil to use it. I think When Sigzil suggests once the Dust Brigade gets hold of him they can trace the dawnshard back to Hoid it is more due due to the fact that they are Connected and that the Dust Brigade can somehow trace that connection.



 

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12 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Apprentice theories have been pretty much quashed by the stream. Of the remaining two, one we haven't met, and one Brandon couldn't remember if we met. So that eliminates all the major characters we'd been discussing.

I suspect that Rysn's Dawnshard is the same as Hoid's/Sigzil's, and it's been passing hands recently. The very interesting thing was Brandon's particular phrasing about whether Hoid/Sigzil had the same Dawnshard. We'll need to wait for the transcription, but in the moment, it made me think that Hoid has his old Dawnshard back. So I'm thinking the chain of ownership was something like: Hoid, one of the original Sixteen (who used it for the Shattering), someone on Ashyn, the mural, Rysn, Sigzil, and finally back to Hoid. The Night Brigade is chasing Sigzil since they think he has the Dawnshard; but if they catch him, they'll realize he doesn't have it, and then they'll realize Hoid has had it the whole time. That's why Sigzil has saved "the cosmere" or "just Wit"; by taking the heat off Hoid so he can hide the Dawnshard.

That makes sense because it’s the Only Dawnshard we can I firm was actually on Roshar. But I always felt Hoid carried around his Dawnshard as the ‘DeadGem’ from the Letter but was unable to use it. @AerionBFII just jogged my memory but with this new information.. it seems plausible 
 

Do you think Rysn has the same Dawnshard as Sigzil and Hoid? Hoids Dawnshard is said to be different.. somehow. Any idea what’s different about ‘Change’?

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17 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The Night Brigade is chasing Sigzil since they think he has the Dawnshard; but if they catch him, they'll realize he doesn't have it, and then they'll realize Hoid has had it the whole time. That's why Sigzil has saved "the cosmere" or "just Wit"; by taking the heat off Hoid so he can hide the Dawnshard.

This is what immediately sprung to mind for me.

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I thought "the element" was Hoid's lerasium, and he protects it like his own skin because he ate it and it became part of him, making him a Mistborn?

Honor refers to plural Dawnshards, implying they were available in the past but aren't now, so I think at least two must be or once have been on Roshar or in the Rosharan System at least.

The inability to do violence or eat meat makes me think that Hoid's/Sigzil's Dawnshard is different from Change. Perhaps something like Protect or Persist, associated with the Shards of Preservation, Mercy, Valor? and maybe Autonomy?

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On 3/25/2022 at 0:14 PM, Procrastination Shard said:

Might Design be one? Feels like a tricky answer Brandon would throw out there.

 She has a human ish body now so maybe. Not sure how she managed to keep her mind in the physical realm away from hoid way from  but,  If anyone could figure it out it's probably hoid. 

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