Amira

I'm reading The Stormlight Archive for the first time

333 posts in this topic

There turn out to be some other reasons that make rejecting the blade a good idea.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Amira said:

Do we ever find out why Rosharians say such weird stuff on their deathbed?

yes. between the end of this book and better clarified in the next

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Amira said:

Chapter 47, Kaladin's past:

We skip over Tien's death for a retelling of chapter 1, this time from Kaladin's pov. Do we ever find out why Rosharians say such weird stuff on their deathbed? As expected, the Shardbearer kills Cenn and then Kaladin kills the Shardbearer. But then he turns the Blade down?! Look, I understand that it sickens him, of course it does, it just killed all his friends, but picking up a sword won't change him into the men he hates. With a Shardblade, he could *prevent* his men from dying next time! Sorry, but I just lost some of my respect for Kaladin. Then again, I suppose giving it to one of his men is also okay, but instead of walking away, he should have stayed put a few more seconds to ensure the man actually picked it up! Do you guys think Kaladin did the right thing here?

I never actually thought of it that way... You know what, i agree with you. Future context nothwitstanding, this was a dumb and cowardly move from Kal at that time. He is just running away from his responsibilities here. Fantasy always has the theme of good people always reject power. It's a theme i don't fully agree with, and i had not noticed here.When you reject power, you also reject influence. Kal is a soldier and there really isn't a difference between a spear and a shardblade. They are just weapons. You changed my mind. Total wrong move.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always saw it as more of a rejection of the lighteyes, which he associates with shardblades. To him, refusing the shardblade is a refusal to treat life with callousness, not about rejecting power.

9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

That kind of bothered me too. I wouldn't call it cowardly - Kaladin would see accepting the Blade as basically a betrayal of who he is - but I would call it foolish given what he knows.

But then I tend to be more "with great power comes great responsibility" than "power corrupts" philosophically.

Edited by cometaryorbit
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I never actually thought of it that way... You know what, i agree with you. Future context nothwitstanding, this was a dumb and cowardly move from Kal at that time. He is just running away from his responsibilities here. Fantasy always has the theme of good people always reject power. It's a theme i don't fully agree with, and i had not noticed here.When you reject power, you also reject influence. Kal is a soldier and there really isn't a difference between a spear and a shardblade. They are just weapons. You changed my mind. Total wrong move.

Spoilered for the OP, since it is a WoR Reference

Spoiler

Don't forget, he already is forming the connection with Syl - and very likely influenced his decision(s) - even if only subconsciously.

Coppermind:

Quote

However, she didn't forget her desire to accompany Kaladin, and followed him closly throughout his time in Amaram's army, during his battle with Helaran Davar, and, later, as he was a slave.

WoR Ch 52:

Quote

 

“I’ve been trying to get you to do this for a while now,” Syl said.

“It’s like when I first picked up a spear,” Kaladin whispered. “I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?”

“No,” Syl said, “and yes.”

“It can’t be both.”

“It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you.”

 

Because Connection exists in the SR (without time and space) sometimes Connection effects can come before the cause (such as Syl impersonating Shallan before she or Kal ever meets her). If you re-read the fight with Heleran, it seems apparent that Kal already has some of the increased reflexes of the bond (and was possibly using Stormlight in small quantities).

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Spoilered for the OP, since it is a WoR Reference

  Hide contents

Don't forget, he already is forming the connection with Syl - and very likely influenced his decision(s) - even if only subconsciously.

Coppermind:

WoR Ch 52:

Because Connection exists in the SR (without time and space) sometimes Connection effects can come before the cause (such as Syl impersonating Shallan before she or Kal ever meets her). If you re-read the fight with Heleran, it seems apparent that Kal already has some of the increased reflexes of the bond (and was possibly using Stormlight in small quantities).

 

Quote

I mean, sure, you could say that, but that's boring. Kal making his own decisions is more interesting, so I prefer to read it that way. It's not like it's set in stone that syl was influencing kal to take the 'right' decisions.

Kal not choosing the shardblade is him not taking responsibility. Even if syl influenced him, he chose to do it. So still wrong move.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:
Spoiler

I mean, sure, you could say that, but that's boring. Kal making his own decisions is more interesting, so I prefer to read it that way. It's not like it's set in stone that syl was influencing kal to take the 'right' decisions.

Kal not choosing the shardblade is him not taking responsibility. Even if syl influenced him, he chose to do it. So still wrong move.

 

I think you accidentally clicked quote instead of spoiler.

Spoiler

I'm sorry I was unclear.

I didn't mean to imply Syl chose for him; I just wanted to point out that there was likely more to the decision than what even Kal was aware of at the time.

I disagree on the avoidance of responsibility though. I think Kal was absolutely right to walk away from those shards. To me, it's about living your principles. Knowing how he felt long before he fought and defeated the shardbearer (even if it was all internal and he shared those feelings and beliefs with nobody else); I think if he had picked up the shards he would have been a hypocrite - no matter how he justified it as duty or responsibility to himself or others.

Spoiler

Not to mention that this scene is foreshadowing for at least two different things, in two quite different ways is Fridge Brilliance IMO.

 

Edited by Treamayne
FSPAG
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Knowing how he felt long before he fought and defeated the shardbearer (even if it was all internal and he shared those feelings and beliefs with nobody else); I think if he had picked up the shards he would have been a hypocrite

What would he be a hypocrite about? What internal feelings are you talking about? I don't remember

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

It's hard to approach the question of whether or not what Kaladin chose was right without drawing from material to OP hasn't read yet. But with what's covered so far in the book I do agree with Kaladin's choice, even though I think it would have been a defensible choice for him to have accepted the Shards. His decision is definitely consistent with his character (certainly at that point in time), and additional sections of the books may influence your thinking down the line.

The benefits Kaladin could have made use of, had he accepted the Shards, would also have represented a wholesale acceptance of the society which he increasingly dislikes and also undermined the balance he's trying to maintain between soldiering and healing. Things like lighteyes being right to rule over everyone regardless of what that rule actually does to the people who are ruled. Or becoming a peerless killing machine with Plate and Blade when he's just demonstrated that he doesn't need those things to be able to oppose a Shardbearer. Slaughter isn't Kaladin's preferred method of action.

The Shards would certainly have elevated him above many people (socially, politically, and on the battlefield) but would not have been enough to let him just do what he wants-- he would still have to pledge fealty to someone else, and do what that person said just because they said it. And at least at that point in the story and location there aren't many (or any) brightlords that would help, or allow, Kaladin to accomplish things he might have wanted to do. It's not like Sadeas would have stopped using bridgemen at Kaladin's request, for example, nor would he have allowed Kaladin to protect them on plateau runs.

Kaladin doesn't follow an "ends justify the means" philosophy, and even if he did it's not really clear what ends he might be able to achieve with the Shards that he couldn't otherwise. Taking them would mainly have resulted in vastly more corpses to lay at his feet and more deeply embedded him in (and reinforced) a political and social system he deeply disagreed with and viewed as the primary mechanism that destroyed his life.

Spoiler

There are many subsequent events and quotes which touch on all of this explicitly. Whether or not you agree with Kaladin's choice I don't think that it makes sense to make a judgement based so narrowly on this scenario, alone.

 

Edited by Returned
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

yes. between the end of this book and better clarified in the next

Cool, I'll look forward to that.

20 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

There turn out to be some other reasons that make rejecting the blade a good idea.

I feel like I'm missing half of the debate as it is under spoiler tags, but I'll put my thoughts based on what I know of the story so far. If Kaladin had a shardblade, he could have just cut the bars of the cage he and the other slaves were in. There are practical advantages to having that blade even if he swears never to use it against humans. Not to mention he wouldn't have been made a slave in the first place if his eyes had turned light. He also could have taken the blade for the sole purpose of preventing anyone else from using it.

18 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I never actually thought of it that way... You know what, i agree with you. Future context nothwitstanding, this was a dumb and cowardly move from Kal at that time. He is just running away from his responsibilities here. Fantasy always has the theme of good people always reject power. It's a theme i don't fully agree with, and i had not noticed here.When you reject power, you also reject influence. Kal is a soldier and there really isn't a difference between a spear and a shardblade. They are just weapons. You changed my mind. Total wrong move.

I know, that theme of good guys rejecting power frustrates me! I think the idea that power corrupts comes from our world where the most power comes from money, and money is something you can only get by taking it from someone else (or being given rather, but my point is that someone else has to give up the amount that they give you), so people get rewarded for exploiting others e.g. overworking one's employees. But I might be wrong; there might be more to it.

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

  I think if he had picked up the shards he would have been a hypocrite

 

6 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What would he be a hypocrite about?

I also don't see any hypocrisy. At that point in the story he still believed that some lighteyes are good and honorable. He counts Amaram as one, and he expresses his desire to go fight on the Shattered Plains because the thinks the lighteyes there are better people.

All this being said, though... Kaladin just saw like, 10? 20? 30 of his friends being slaughtered? It's not like he's stopping to think, level headed, if he should take the blade or not. He's going through total shock, trauma, rage, so I guess while his actions of not picking up the blade seem to me like a bad move, I can't claim his reaction isn't realistic.

ANYWAY, chapter 48, Shallan:

Kabsal tried to poison Shallan?? But if that was his goal, why did he eat the jam too? Now everything has fallen apart for Shallan, because she pulled the stolen Soulcaster out of her safepouch. Have I mentioned yet my suspicion that maybe Shallan's original Soulcaster wasn't broken in the first place, her family just didn't know how to use it, or someone lied about it no longer working? Maybe Shallan swapped a working Soulcaster with a working Soulcaster!

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Amira said:

All this being said, though... Kaladin just saw like, 10? 20? 30 of his friends being slaughtered? It's not like he's stopping to think, level headed, if he should take the blade or not. He's going through total shock, trauma, rage, so I guess while his actions of not picking up the blade seem to me like a bad move, I can't claim his reaction isn't realistic.

I agree. This and the fact that those Shards were the things that slaughtered those friends. Taking the Shards would have been painful. Owning the things that killed almost ALL of the people you loved? That sounds awful. 

More spoiler tags, sorry Amira!

Spoiler

I wonder if he had touched the Shardblade, would it have screamed in his head? I doubt his and Syl's bond was that developed...

Just my two cents.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

More spoiler tags, sorry Amira!

Haha, no worries!

Chapter 49, Kaladin: Why is Teft beating around the bush??? Just tell Kaladin he has powers, stormit! On the bright side, I got the training sequence I was looking forward to! I love reading about training, it's one of my favorite things. I could really feel it, and I wanted so much to be down there with them, in those murky, keep chasms, training stances until I was exhausted. I always find myself jealous of book characters even though they are in so much danger. My own adventure consists of way to much sitting in front of the computer and not nearly enough doing physical things out in the wild.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What would he be a hypocrite about? What internal feelings are you talking about? I don't remember

3 hours ago, Amira said:

I also don't see any hypocrisy. At that point in the story he still believed that some lighteyes are good and honorable. He counts Amaram as one, and he expresses his desire to go fight on the Shattered Plains because the thinks the lighteyes there are better people.

All this being said, though... Kaladin just saw like, 10? 20? 30 of his friends being slaughtered? It's not like he's stopping to think, level headed, if he should take the blade or not. He's going through total shock, trauma, rage, so I guess while his actions of not picking up the blade seem to me like a bad move, I can't claim his reaction isn't realistic.

Granted it is all perception and opinion, but here was my thinking:

Based on what Kal knows and thinks to this point (before turning them down), and knowing that because of what happened to Tien (WoK Ch 67) we see part of the massive psychological shift that led him to collecting "his squad" and trying to protect young soldiers like Cenn. He is firmly in the role and mindset of a protector. He's doing his soldier's duty to train recruits, hold ground and protect his people and his Companylord (Amaram). Then he sees the Shardbearer. . .

So his only impression of Shards, aside from myths/legends/stories - likely exaggerated (as he discussed with Laral), is their use in utter destruction. Not just being a soldier or warrior, but randomly cutting down unarmed kids that are running away - just because they are within reach. To pick up the Shards would have been to turn his back on his past, his brother, and his role as protector. Basically to sell himself for fame and position to become a destroyer.

That's why I said picking them up would be hypocrisy
EDIT: Here's the mindset reference from WoK Ch 47 (snipped for length)

Spoiler

Kaladin’s confusion lasted right up until the moment the Shardbearer trampled Cenn, Shardblade dropping and cutting through Dallet’s head in a single, easy stroke.
“No!” Kaladin bellowed. “No!”
. . .
No! said the part of his mind trained by his father. Save the ones you can!

He turned to Cenn. The boy had taken a hoof to the chest, cracking his sternum and shattering ribs. The boy gasped, eyes upward, struggling for breath. Kaladin pulled out a bandage. Then he paused, looking at it. A bandage? To mend a smashed chest?
. . .
This isn’t possible. I…I…

Screaming.

Kaladin looked up. Amaram’s banner of green and burgundy flew just to the south. The Shardbearer had cut through Kaladin’s squad heading straight for that banner. Spearmen fled in disarray, screaming, scattering before the Shardbearer.

Anger boiled inside of Kaladin.
. . .

Kaladin redoubled his speed. Was he running to get vengeance, or was he trying to protect his highmarshal? The only lighteyes who had ever shown a modicum of humanity? Did it matter?
. . .

The Shardblade swept out in a broad sweeping series of deadly strokes, cutting through ten of the spearmen.

Kaladin was paralyzed in horror as Toorim, Acis, Hamel, and seven others fell to the ground, eyes burning, their armor and weapons sheared completely through. The remaining spearmen stumbled back, aghast.
. . .
No, Kaladin thought. No, no, NO! Something drove him forward, against all logic, against all sense. Sickened, agonized, enraged.
. . .
Kaladin skidded to a stop, spinning, regarding the Shardbearer. This creature wasn’t a god. It was everything the most petty of lighteyes represented. The ability to kill people like Kaladin with impunity.

Every suit of armor had a chink. Every man had a flaw.
. . .
Everything felt wrong.

If he took that Blade, he’d become one of them. His eyes would even change, if the stories were right. Though the Blade glistened in the light, clean of the murders it had performed, for a moment it seemed red to him. Stained with Dallet’s blood. Toorim’s blood. The blood of the men who had been alive just moments before.

It was a treasure. Men traded kingdoms for Shardblades. The handful of darkeyed men who had won them lived forever in song and story.

But the thought of touching that Blade sickened him. It represented everything he’d come to hate about the lighteyes, and it had just slaughtered men he loved dearly. He could not become a legend because of something like that. He looked at his reflection in the Blade’s pitiless metal, then lowered his hand and turned away.

Quote

ANYWAY, chapter 48, Shallan:

Kabsal tried to poison Shallan?? But if that was his goal, why did he eat the jam too? Now everything has fallen apart for Shallan, because she pulled the stolen Soulcaster out of her safepouch. Have I mentioned yet my suspicion that maybe Shallan's original Soulcaster wasn't broken in the first place, her family just didn't know how to use it, or someone lied about it no longer working? Maybe Shallan swapped a working Soulcaster with a working Soulcaster!

I can't wait until you get these answers. . . soon

2 hours ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:
  Reveal hidden contents

I wonder if he had touched the Shardblade, would it have screamed in his head? I doubt his and Syl's bond was that developed...

 

Spoiler

Concur - otherwise Dalinar would have heard screaming when he bonded/summoned the Shardblade in the confrontation with Amaram before marching into the Shattered Plains.

They were both pre-first-ideal proto-Radiants (and Dalinar was likely much closer to the first Ideal than Kaladin at this point)

Sorry Amira. . .

Edited by Treamayne
Reference
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fun fact: If you're looking for joy, you ain't gonna find it in the next two chapters.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

Fun fact: If you're looking for joy, you ain't gonna find it in the next two chapters.

Oh no

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Amira said:

Oh no

Oh yes. :evilgrin:

Edited by Shallan Stormblessed
unitalicizing
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chapter 50, Shallan: Shallan's world is falling apart. Honestly, I was more surprised that she lasted as long as she did. But wait, I thought Jasnah did eat some bread this time. And Kabsal died because someone swapped the strawberry jam with something else? I'm very confused.

Chapter 51, Kaladin's past: Kaladin himself admits how stupid it was to not take the Shards, although he doesn't regret his decision. Then Amaram decides to be a bad guy, but seeing as this is in the past, and present day Kaladin hints about it, I already knew something like this was coming.

End of part 3! Next up is the interludes, and we get SZETH again, yay!!

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Amira said:

Chapter 50, Shallan: Shallan's world is falling apart. Honestly, I was more surprised that she lasted as long as she did. But wait, I thought Jasnah did eat some bread this time. And Kabsal died because someone swapped the strawberry jam with something else? I'm very confused.

 

good job spotting that, i missed it the first time. when you'll get there, it will blow your mind. I didn't care much for the whole shallan plot at first, until I got at the conclusion.

 

regarding kaladin, i do think his decision is stupid. right where he was before being enslaved, he wasn't really helping anyone. he was saving a bunch of innocent people by killing a bunch of equally innocent people, in insignificant battles for minor border disputes that mattered nothing. for all his efforts, kaladin't net good was low. take a shard, become someone important, and he can make a difference instead. he would get assigned some land to rule, and he could try to enforce a better system there, improving the lives of thousands and potentially setting precedents.

in the immortal words of someone with a better grasp of leadership, you're not going to change the system by raving like a lunatic.

however, the decisiion is also very in character for kaladin. it's who he is. if kaladin didn't do something stupid every once in a while, he'd be a boring invincible hero.

also, that moment is a key point for brandon's writing. brandon wrote a first version of that book, back when he still hadn't published anything and he doubted he ever would; and in that version (way of kings prime, which brandon shared online somewhere) kaladin took the shards. and he was a generic fantasy hero. brandon thought the idea of the hero taking the wrong decision made for a better story, leading to the current plot.

 

ultimately, though, none of this would have mattered; amaram would have taken the shards anyway.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, does Amaram take the Blade from Kaladin in Prime? I thought once someone picked up a Shardblade, that Blade was magically theirs (I mean, it can disappear and such and they're the only ones who can summon it).

My rep says I'm a misting. I hope my power is the one that lets you push on metals and fly.:)

Interlude 7, Baxil: Why is this woman destroying art? That's arguably worse than stealing! And why does Baxil want to get a boon from the Nightwatcher if it means getting cursed? Totally doesn't seem worth it.

Interlude 8, Geranid: Spren are like Schrodinger's cat??? Is this true for all spren? Is this true for Syl? Mind blown.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Amira said:

Wait, does Amaram take the Blade from Kaladin in Prime? I thought once someone picked up a Shardblade, that Blade was magically theirs

One of the main differences between Way of Kings and WoK Prime is that in the original Prime Merin (the character who became Kaladin) took the blade. I don't think Amaram was in that story.

As for bonding a blade, you will get more information on that in Words of Radiance.

4 minutes ago, Amira said:

My rep says I'm a misting. I hope my power is the one that lets you push on metals and fly.

I think there's a quiz for that

4 minutes ago, Amira said:

Interlude 7, Baxil: Why is this woman destroying art?

Why indeed? Might be important. . .

4 minutes ago, Amira said:

Interlude 8, Geranid: Spren are like Schrodinger's cat??? Is this true for all spren?

We are still learning implications from this.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think there's a quiz for that

I got a Seeker, lame...

Interlude 9, Szeth: Somehow I had thought previously that the king of Ja Keved was Shallan's father, not sure why I thought that. Poor Szeth. I'm waiting to find out why he has to do whatever the person with his Oathstone tells him, what it means to be Truthless. I am ALSO looking forward to reading about Kaladin learning to Lash! In terms of storytelling, I think having an OP character who has to do whatever his arbitrary master tells him was brilliant.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/19/2022 at 0:27 PM, Returned said:

Kaladin doesn't follow an "ends justify the means" philosophy, and even if he did it's not really clear what ends he might be able to achieve with the Shards that he couldn't otherwise.

 

Eh, a Shardbearer is a fourth dahn lighteyes, which means lordship over land. So Kaladin could have tried to set an example of lordship with genuine concern for the common people.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chapter 52, Dalinar/Adolin: Thank goodness. Dalinar isn't stepping down yet; they're going to try and prove or disprove that the visions are real. Good idea. Gosh, that voice in the visions is kind of a jerk, repeating the same message that he already gave but refusing to give more info or answer questions.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Amira said:

Chapter 52, Dalinar/Adolin: Thank goodness. Dalinar isn't stepping down yet; they're going to try and prove or disprove that the visions are real. Good idea. Gosh, that voice in the visions is kind of a jerk, repeating the same message that he already gave but refusing to give more info or answer questions.

Continue that line of thinking. . .

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.