Stormlight Book 5: Kaladin and Moash Theory

[Prince Du Pain Spearman]

Hello, everyone!

This is my first post here on the 17th Shard, so please excuse if I mark anything wrong on here.

I do not know if this has been said anywhere else, but while listening to one of the Shardcast episodes theorizing about who would die in Stormlight book 5 and who would survive to make it to the back half, I had this thought come to me. It is a common theory that Kaladin will not make it to the back half of the Stormlight Archives since so much of the front half has centered around him, and so much of his character arc has already been completed. Thinking about how complete Kaladin's character arc feels made me realize how incomplete Moash's character arc has seemed to me. I do not know if anyone else has felt this way, but throughout all of the books it has felt like Moash should be an important character, but comes across more as a side character that sometimes is heavily involved with the plot. In theory, Moash's character and story arc seem really important and impactful, but I remember not feeling that way completely while reading the books, like I was waiting for more to be done with his character.

Spoiler

Part of me wonders if this is the case because he is an "antagonist" but is largely overshadowed by other antagonists in the series. 

In short, if Moash's charcter arc ended anywhere near where it is currently, I feel like I would be left with the impression that he was not used to his fullest extent. In addition, Kaladin cannot just die in book five. If he does, he needs to go out in a big and important way. He is too important of a character for anything else. This leads me to my theory. I am not sure to what extent spoilers need to be marked, so I am just going to mark the entire thing as a spoiler.

Spoiler

Moash, AKA Vyre, is currently the person and antagonist that is most intimately tied to Kaladin. In fact, it often feels like Moash's antagonism only exists for Kaladin's sake. This means that his resolution and Kaladin's are going to be closely tied together. In addition, during RoW Moash's sole goal is to get Kaladin to either join Odium or commit suicide. Here is where the theory comes in. What if in book 5 Moash ends up regretting his choices and reevaluating his decisions? We have already seen him do this to some extent, and many of the decisions he has made have been based on honor in some way, albeit usually twisted in a way where it is no longer actually good. The final thing that could drive him to switching to joining the good side could then be Kaladin dying to save him in some way. At this point Moash would probably realize that he does not actually want Kaladin to commit suicide, so there would almost be a poetic justice to the fact that Kaladin only died (and kind of by choice because it was to save Moash) once Moash no longer was trying to get him to. In addition, Moash would probably feel very unworthy of having Kaladin die for him, and this could easily become the motivation behind why he fights for the good side (more so fighting out of duty for Kaladin, then for anything else). This could then lead to him being a more important character in the back half of the series, which would also then allow Kaladin's legacy to continue on, even though his character arc is finished and he is dead. It would also allow for Moash's charcter arc to have time to feel more fleshed out and complete. It also seems to line up with Brandon's tendency for redemption whenever it is possible within a character, and the potential definitely seems like it could be there with Moash if the right situations aligned. I am not sure how his current blindness would fit into this, however.

Thoughts?

[Matrim's Dice Most Ancient]

38 minutes ago, Prince Du Pain said:

Thoughts?

Definitely possible, but imo Moash is past the redemption stage, at least for me. If in RoW he had gone down a *cough* better path, I'd have bought the redemption arc, but at the stage he's at now, redeeming him would feel... cheap to me, I guess. I'd rather have him continue to spiral down and down until he just completely crashes and burns, and hey, he deserves it, but I think that'd be a more realistic way to end his story. You are right in that he feels sidelined for how important he is.

The problem with my idea is, like you mentioned, his blindness. I don't really see how he could do much of anything in his current state :P. Or what Taravodium will think of him, if it's possible to heal his eyes and if Taravodium would. As much as I'd be disappointed if Moash suddenly wanted to be good, I'd be even more disappointed if he just wandered off and died at the start of book five  I'm not sure how Kaladin would tie into any of this either, but I'm sure Brandon has a plan and I'd probably be sold on anything he wrote, even if it was a redemption arc.

45 minutes ago, Prince Du Pain said:

I am not sure to what extent spoilers need to be marked, so I am just going to mark the entire thing as a spoiler.

As far as I know spoilers are fine to be left unmarked in their appropriate book forums, maybe even outside of those. Provided it's been long enough after the book's release, which for RoW it has. It's always nice to be safe, so spoiling anything isn't a problem  There's a spoiler policy page somewhere you can check out if you're interested.

Welcome to the Shard!

[Olmund High Prelan]

There was a similar discussion a couple months ago; I'll repost my response from that topic as it's fairly relevant to your thoughts: 

Spoiler

I wouldn't mind if Moash had a redemption arc (I think Brandon could pull it off, though I also think he might not pull it off). That said, there have been several despicable characters who have been (at least partially) redeemed: Venli, Gaz, etc., -- and there were other interesting candidates for redemption that were killed off, i.e., Amaram (prior to the end of Oathbringer), Ialai Sadeas (prior to RoW), etc. I don't think we need to have every villainous character either redeemed or dead by the end of the story -- that would be too contrived and tidy. If Moash continues to be alive but irreparably broken (at least through the end of the first half), that would likely be more believable than trying to shoehorn him into a heroic (or semi-heroic) role.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Olmund
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[worldwithinworld Bridgeman]

I don't think Kaladin is anywhere close to finishing his story. He just took on a new challenge. He's inventing mental healthcare, starting a medical revolution. 

And you know who could really use some therapy? Moash.

[Letryx13 High Prelan]

If Moash had been able to express remorse over what he did to Teft at the end of RoW, then I could maybe see a Moash redemption story. Maybe. But he couldn't bring himself to say it.  Which, interestingly, I wonder if that had something to do with the Honorblade he carries. Maybe someone can't lie while holding one (wild theory).  

But anyway, the problem is, there's never really been much nobility in Moash to start with.  In TWoK, we find that his main motivation for staying alive is revenge.  He showed some small loyalty to Bridge four, but tossed that aside as soon as he got something better in the shards from Kaladin. Then, when he meets up with the caravans after being caught by the fused, he only sees the absolute worst in the people there, disgusted that the dark eyes are still beneath the light eyes.  All of which leads him to blaming everyone else for what he did. Redemption requires taking responsibility for your actions, like Dalinar did at the end of Oathbringer (one of my favorites parts of the story).  Moash has had several chances to admit his wrongdoings and start fresh, but he's always taken the easier route of denying responsibility. Unless he owns up to his mistakes, there's no hope for him.

As for Kaladin, I agree that he probably won't be a big character in the second half, if he survives.  Personally, I'd love to see him being a driving force in the field of mental health care, but as someone who's work affects the rest of the story.  Maybe he is directly in the main story a little, but he'd be better as a side character, if he survives. 

 

 

[Prince Du Pain Spearman]

6 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Definitely possible, but imo Moash is past the redemption stage, at least for me. If in RoW he had gone down a *cough* better path, I'd have bought the redemption arc, but at the stage he's at now, redeeming him would feel... cheap to me, I guess. I'd rather have him continue to spiral down and down until he just completely crashes and burns, and hey, he deserves it, but I think that'd be a more realistic way to end his story. You are right in that he feels sidelined for how important he is.

The problem with my idea is, like you mentioned, his blindness. I don't really see how he could do much of anything in his current state :P. Or what Taravodium will think of him, if it's possible to heal his eyes and if Taravodium would. As much as I'd be disappointed if Moash suddenly wanted to be good, I'd be even more disappointed if he just wandered off and died at the start of book five  I'm not sure how Kaladin would tie into any of this either, but I'm sure Brandon has a plan and I'd probably be sold on anything he wrote, even if it was a redemption arc.

As far as I know spoilers are fine to be left unmarked in their appropriate book forums, maybe even outside of those. Provided it's been long enough after the book's release, which for RoW it has. It's always nice to be safe, so spoiling anything isn't a problem  There's a spoiler policy page somewhere you can check out if you're interested.

Welcome to the Shard!

I agree that Moash definitely seems past the point of traditional redemption now. I think in my head it would be more like a breaking of ties from Odium, leading to him being more of a "I do whatever I think is right" (kind of lawful neutral) character that just generally opposes Odium because he feels that he was used by him, and maybe does things that he thinks that Kaladin would think was good, not necessarily because he feels any conviction for the actions themselves, but because he feels indebted to Kaladin to do so if that makes sense.

Or maybe it just ends up being a "Kaladin dies to save Moash, and then Moash has just enough change of heart in one specific important moment to do the thing that stops Odium but also ends up killing himself in the process" kind of thing  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Who knows. Like you said, I'm sure Brandon has a plan and I'll be completely sold on whatever it is .

The blindness thing seems too out of the ordinary to not end up being an important part of it though, so I am curious to see how it factors in, since I'm sure it will end up being important for some reason.

Thanks for the welcome!

[Prince Du Pain Spearman]

4 hours ago, worldwithinworld said:

I don't think Kaladin is anywhere close to finishing his story. He just took on a new challenge. He's inventing mental healthcare, starting a medical revolution. 

And you know who could really use some therapy? Moash.

The back half is actually just Moash being a general menace in his group therapy sessions that he is forced to go to by Kaladin