Let us Discuss the Iriali [Discuss]

[Kandrafish]

Goal: Gain a vague timeline of the Iriali people's travels.

(Full Cosmere Spoilers)

 

I would like to focus in on the Iriali and specifically speculate about their lands (including Lumar)

 

1 We know that Roshar is the 4th land.

2 The Iriali follow the "Long Trail"

3 People from Rira (Evi) have sayings that reflect the planets of Nalthis and Taldain

4 A queen in Iriali responds to Dalinar with comments about the tides

5 Rirans are different from the Iriali. 

6 Autonomy's isolation principal has locked Kriss out of her homeland during the time she is writing her essays.

7 Nalthis and Roshar have a lot of interaction and linguistic similarities.

 

New Secret Project Info

1 The Iri have been on Lumar.

2 A cup written in "their language", old Iriali, is written from up to down, not left to right. And made entirely of tin. (not Rosharan writing)

3 Disappeared 300 years prior to Secret Project 1 story.

4 Hoid does not appear to have Design at this time 300 years past their disappearance.

5 Iriali had at least one "king" on Lumar. (Probably three monarchs, though.)

 

Assumptions

1 Evi's idioms can be traced to Taldain "Sun at night" quote and Nalthis from some color related quotes. And these quotes come from her partial Iriali heritage (golden hair, but not true golden hair)

2 Autonomy has isolated Taldain from the Cosmere for a significant amount of time.

3 There is only one group of Iriali roming the Cosmere.

 

Speculation and Proto-Theorizing

1. With near certainty, we can say that the Iriali must have been to Lumar prior to Roshar, through abundant circumstantial evidence. 

a. Hoid makes no mention of Design.

b. Rosharan and Scadrial references not present.

c. Iriali have tide readers. "The Iriali religion may involve fortune-telling with ocean waves, as a member of the Iriali court is the court tidereader. A spanreed meeting between the Iriali queen and Dalinar was moved up because of something seen in the waves." -from a stormlight archive fandom wiki.  Tide implies some sea-faring history and considering the importance of paying attention to the fluids on Lumar, it would be wise to have a tide reader.

 

2. Now, it gets interesting. We conclude that if Roshar is the 4th land,

Lands 1-3 must be Nalthis, Taldain and Lumar

My suggestion for order is 

0th Before the beginning of the "Long Trail". (Perhaps destroyed in the shattering.)

1st Lumar --- Ancient Iriali writing that goes up to down must predate their visit to Taldain because on the Dayside of Taldain they write from left to write based on the current comics (papers on Heelis' desk).

2nd Taldain --- At some point travel to and from Taldain is blocked, but in early times of Kriss and Kenton, it is not blocked, so earlier is more likely for Taldain (additionally, I can only remember the one Evi expression).

3rd Nalthis --- There is a lot of interconnectedness between Roshar and Nalthis. Therefore, I think it seems logical that the last leg of the Long Trail, so far is from Nalthis to Roshar.

4th Roshar --- Confirmed.

7th Final land (Yolen?)

3. The question remains whether the golden Aether sea provided the Iriali with their golden hair, or, and I think this more likely, there is a 0th land. This stands to reason, based on how Charlie seemed to think the golden hair was something noteworthy, and we haven't seen anyone around with green hair or heard any mention of new inhabitants having golden hair. Hopefully this can be answered when we have the full book for

Secret Project 1:

Spoiler

Tress and the Emerald Sea

Please add your own observations and theories. I am sure I missed some data and I have been unable to confirm the fact that I think that the Iriali on Roshar write from left to right.

 

[Zibus]

A good point I have seen that's slightly different from your theory above is that Aons are also written top-down on Elantris, and that metallic colored skin/hair is the primary physical marker of Elantrians. Together these may suggest that the Iriali were on Sel before Lumar, and even that Sel is "land 0" and the Iriali's homeworld.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Ummm, why are we discussing the iriali in cosmere secret projects thread? Shouldn't this be in the cosmere discussion thread?

[iceblade44]

11 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Ummm, why are we discussing the iriali in cosmere secret projects thread? Shouldn't this be in the cosmere discussion thread?

Info about that was revealed in sp1

[KaladinWorldsinger]

8 minutes ago, iceblade44 said:

Info about that was revealed in sp1

I know that, but iriali are a cosmere topic right? There could be spoilers for people who haven't read specific series

[Kandrafish]

21 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I know that, but iriali are a cosmere topic right? There could be spoilers for people who haven't read specific series

I figured that unpublished work spoilers would have precedent over cosmere spoilers. Lumar is not canon or even published, so I didn't want it in another section.

I figured that most people here would have full knowledge of the cosmere and I figured that a quick warning should be good for stopping anyone who had not read one book and didn't want to be spoiled. This is a group that cares less about that stuff, though, I think.

[Kandrafish]

1 hour ago, Zibus said:

A good point I have seen that's slightly different from your theory above is that Aons are also written top-down on Elantris, and that metallic colored skin/hair is the primary physical marker of Elantrians. Together these may suggest that the Iriali were on Sel before Lumar, and even that Sel is "land 0" and the Iriali's homeworld.

That is a good point

We know

8 Aons are written top down and Ancient Iriali is written top down.

We can speculate

Ok... So the idea is that their skin and hair is golden because they predate the Reod and Aona and Skai's death. They could use Aon Dor differently, perhaps and thus it affected them differently.  Similarly, this could explain why they aren't immortal like the IRE.

If the Iriali could access Fortune and the ability to travel with Aon Tia, they could evacuate the planet in a way that the invested shards could not...

[Frustration]

50 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I know that, but iriali are a cosmere topic right? There could be spoilers for people who haven't read specific series

25 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

I figured that unpublished work spoilers would have precedent over cosmere spoilers. Lumar is not canon or even published, so I didn't want it in another section.

I figured that most people here would have full knowledge of the cosmere and I figured that a quick warning should be good for stopping anyone who had not read one book and didn't want to be spoiled. This is a group that cares less about that stuff, though, I think.

Kandrafish is correct Secret Project spoilers take precedent here.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Frustration

[apepi]

Don't they worship some god called the 'One'?

I also have a feeling that the cup will end up being magical, ancient old artifact is definitely a cliche that should come up with this kind of story. We also see a cup in the book cover.

[Kandrafish]

1 hour ago, apepi said:

Don't they worship some god called the 'One'?

I also have a feeling that the cup will end up being magical, ancient old artifact is definitely a cliche that should come up with this kind of story. We also see a cup in the book cover.

They do whorship the "One" which has some Adonalsium roots, according to some WoBs. Supposedly the One split apart and when the Iriali reach the 7th land on the "Long Trail" the One will become One again (also, all humans are part of the One (Adonalsium, perhaps, also lives on in the hearts of men)).

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

3 People from Rira (Evi) have sayings that reflect the planets of Nalthis and Taldain

Highly debatable. That "black on white" thing could just as well mean that they descend from people who had printing presses. That would point to Scadrial. Not that I am advocating that. But I am saying that the examples are cherry-picked.

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

4 A queen in Iriali responds to Dalinar with comments about the tides

What do you expect from people living on a peninsula?

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

2 A cup written in "their language", old Iriali, is written from up to down, not left to right. And made entirely of tin. (not Rosharan writing)

That is basically meaningless. Both Chinese and Japanese have writing styles that are horizontal and vertical. The usage is a stylistic choice. In fact some writing systems switch from line to line. (column to column seems not to be done)

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Assumptions

1 Evi's idioms can be traced to Taldain "Sun at night" quote and Nalthis from some color related quotes. And these quotes come from her partial Iriali heritage (golden hair, but not true golden hair)

Again, you can read this stuff that way. But you do not need to. "sun at night" for example may refer to something nonsensical. In the Edda you find "made from the breath of a fish" to indicate the impossible.

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

1. With near certainty, we can say that the Iriali must have been to Lumar prior to Roshar, through abundant circumstantial evidence. 

Yes

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

a. Hoid makes no mention of Design.

b. Rosharan and Scadrial references not present.

Seals, whales, horses, ...

7 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

c. Iriali have tide readers. "The Iriali religion may involve fortune-telling with ocean waves, as a member of the Iriali court is the court tidereader. A spanreed meeting between the Iriali queen and Dalinar was moved up because of something seen in the waves." -from a stormlight archive fandom wiki.  Tide implies some sea-faring history and considering the importance of paying attention to the fluids on Lumar, it would be wise to have a tide reader.

 

Lumar would have at most solar tides (just as Roshar) depending on how fluid the spores are without a ship passing. It may have none. And yes, they live on the coast more suited to navigation on Roshar and have major trade cities. Just because the Thaylens are shown more you cannot conclude that nobody else is as naval as them in other regions.
And, of course, lower gravity -> higher tides. A world wide ocean -> higher tides.

 

[Zibus]

Also, do we know their origin point is not counted in the 7 land path? Is there specific evidence for that in the text or WoBs somewhere? I had kind of assumed it was included.

 

[Kandrafish]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

Highly debatable. That "black on white" thing could just as well mean that they descend from people who had printing presses.

I am sorry I really do not know what you are referring to with the "black on white" thing.

If there is actually an Evi quote on that, that would be super useful! I think that is exactly what Zahel says.

(Also, that is a unique idea. I have thought about the Catzi people from Sazed's religions, but didn't think about printing presses. I ultimately ruled out the Catzi  as being a sign of the Iriali. There is too little talk of metal in the west and too little talk about a people with gold colored hair on Scadrial or in Sazed's religions. )

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

That would point to Scadrial. Not that I am advocating that. But I am saying that the examples are cherry-picked.

 

 

Here is everything I have on this point (not cherry picked, just anything weird that Evi said). I will agree that I picked out points that support my idea 

 The Blackness from old stories that “live only by taking life from others” -Evi referring to Nightblood (probably)(372 in Oathbreaker hardcover)

 

“A mystery sent by ShiShi” -Evi Flamespren with Shardblade (373)  -Ambiguous

 

“It isn’t healthy to have a stone curdling in your stomach still wet with moss” Evi meaning “you must not think such strange thoughts, who put them in your head”  -Rosharan?

 

“Joy of your own sensation”-seems Nalthis related or at least potentially breath related, as Nalthians can feel each others presence

 

Evi uses tiny glyphwards and incense

“Life will be as white as the sun at night”--nearly confirms Taldain as a world of the Iri

The sun is referred to as white because of how bright it is. 

 

If we really want to get into the Nalthis connection we can talk about Drehy (a second blond haired individual from the west) referring to "Brightcaller". Of course, as specified, this is a lot of circumstantial evidence.

There are, as you can see, a lot of little things that point to a connection between the west and Nalthis. This would not make sense if the perpendicularity is in the Horneater peaks, unless former Nalthians settled in the west.

The Taldain piece is only confirmed by one quote, but the quote is so clear that it makes me confident.

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

What do you expect from people living on a peninsula?

 

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

That is basically meaningless. Both Chinese and Japanese have writing styles that are horizontal and vertical. The usage is a stylistic choice. In fact some writing systems switch from line to line. (column to column seems not to be done)

I don't think so, a culture does not easily forget a writing style, that takes lots of time. Therefore it is relevant.

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

Again, you can read this stuff that way. But you do not need to. "sun at night" for example may refer to something nonsensical. In the Edda you find "made from the breath of a fish" to indicate the impossible.

The problem here is that she would be using the idiom wrong. She is not using it to mean non-sense. She is using it to mean it is true. We also know that Brandon is a fan of knowing the origin of meanings. In one of his works, he explains the origin of "the skin of your teeth". 

It fits too perfectly. Not just the sun at night, the white sun at night.  We call our sun yellow. Scadrians

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

Yes

Seals, whales, horses, ...

The point is that he makes specific reference in one book and almost none in another. Perhaps it is writing style, perhaps it is Wit tricking us, or perhaps it is a less experienced Wit with less time spent around the cosmere.

On 3/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

Lumar would have at most solar tides (just as Roshar) depending on how fluid the spores are without a ship passing. It may have none. And yes, they live on the coast more suited to navigation on Roshar and have major trade cities. Just because the Thaylens are shown more you cannot conclude that nobody else is as naval as them in other regions.
And, of course, lower gravity -> higher tides. A world wide ocean -> higher tides.

 

This is a great point. I suppose you could look at it this way. You could also look at is as the fact that these people settled here because they have past experience (Lumar).

 

I appreciate you holding me to an explanation and definitely would appreciate any more nit picking. What do you agree with with the extra info. What is still not fitting and should be retheorized?

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my ideas.

[Kandrafish]

On 3/20/2022 at 10:55 AM, Zibus said:

Also, do we know their origin point is not counted in the 7 land path? Is there specific evidence for that in the text or WoBs somewhere? I had kind of assumed it was included.

 

I do not have any confirmation on this. I chose that interpretation because it best represented the conclusion that I had drawn from the data.