theory Do we finaly have an answer?

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I don’t think he’s ever confirmed that Wisdom is actually a Shard name. Especially given that we only have 15 original shard names which does not include Wisdom one unnamed Shard which he said we only part of. I think that final shard is the one that has an Intent that would be similar to Wisdom but isn’t and is also the Survival shard.

You're right, I confuse it with Whimsy somehow. Still there is a Shard with similar intent to Wisdom, but it doesn't have to be survival shard as Brandon RAFO it. This Shard might simply realized that survival is not a good option, and that might be Virtuosity, so some other unknown/known shard. 

[lacrossedeamon]

Just now, alder24 said:

You're right, I confuse it with Whimsy somehow. Still there is a Shard with similar intent to Wisdom, but it doesn't have to be survival shard as Brandon RAFO it. This Shard might simply realized that survival is not a good option, and that might be Virtuosity, so some other unknown/known shard. 

No it doesn’t but unlike the original post I don’t think Virtuosity is the Shard with the Wisdom like intent especially given the WoB posted about Virtuosity and the unnamed shard and I also don’t think the mention of a Shard realizing survival not being as important means it is suicidal now/splintered itself just that it is willing to put itself in danger now for other goals.

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I don’t think Virtuosity is the Shard with the Wisdom like intent

wisdom - the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgement; the quality of being wise.

virtuosity - great skill in music or another artistic pursuit.

For me they look pretty similar by definition. Both are about experience and skill.

15 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I also don’t think the mention of a Shard realizing survival not being as important means it is suicidal now/splintered itself just that it is willing to put itself in danger now for other goals.

That is one of many possibilities.

[lacrossedeamon]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

wisdom - the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgement; the quality of being wise.

virtuosity - great skill in music or another artistic pursuit.

For me they look pretty similar by definition. Both are about experience and skill.

This just me but they don’t seem that similar. Honestly the feel more juxtaposed in a rational vs emotional or acquired vs innate sense. And again in the Virtuosity WOB Brandon states that we know the general Intent of the unnamed Shard which implies to me Wisdom because he’s only described “survival” as being tangential to the Intent.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

This just me but they don’t seem that similar. Honestly the feel more juxtaposed in a rational vs emotional or acquired vs innate sense. And again in the Virtuosity WOB Brandon states that we know the general Intent of the unnamed Shard which implies to me Wisdom because he’s only described “survival” as being tangential to the Intent.

He also said he could be wrong

[lacrossedeamon]

Just now, Frustration said:

He also said he could be wrong

True but I think he was referencing all the Wisdom shard WOBs but couldn’t remember the exact specifics so he hedged his bets.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

True but I think he was referencing all the Wisdom shard WOBs but couldn’t remember the exact specifics so he hedged his bets.

That seems to require a lot of chance. Not only is he remembering correctly that he has told us about this shards intent, he is also referring to the "Wisdom" shard rather than survical, temperance, Justice, or the dozens of others that have been proposed over the years.

[lacrossedeamon]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That seems to require a lot of chance. Not only is he remembering correctly that he has told us about this shards intent, he is also referring to the "Wisdom" shard rather than survical, temperance, Justice, or the dozens of others that have been proposed over the years.

I might be miscounting but I feel that other than maybe survival (which he states is only just tangential to the intent) Wisdom (which is states is close to the intent) has been the most commented on at least recently. And is it a lot of chance to think Brandon is remembering correctly?

[Frustration]

55 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I might be miscounting but I feel that other than maybe survival (which he states is only just tangential to the intent) Wisdom (which is states is close to the intent) has been the most commented on at least recently.

So far as I'm aware, but there are times where Brandon will post things, or mention them at signings, that don't get recorded.

56 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And is it a lot of chance to think Brandon is remembering correctly?

Well, he did once call Oathbringer an Honorblade...

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

So far as I'm aware, but there are times where Brandon will post things, or mention them at signings, that don't get recorded.

Well, he did once call Oathbringer an Honorblade...

Valid. Only time will tell… or the next spoilerstream.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

This just me but they don’t seem that similar. Honestly the feel more juxtaposed in a rational vs emotional or acquired vs innate sense. And again in the Virtuosity WOB Brandon states that we know the general Intent of the unnamed Shard which implies to me Wisdom because he’s only described “survival” as being tangential to the Intent.

Skill and experience isn't similar to you? 

He also said that Prudence sounds like a Shard name, and there are probably many WoBs asking about another names. The general intent of this Shard is most likely associated with survival. Wisdom-like shard might not be survival one, as there is nothing in the WoBs suggesting that survival is connected to its intent. 

[lacrossedeamon]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Skill and experience isn't similar to you? 

Not in the way they are expressed by Virtuosity and Wisdom as I detailed.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

He also said that Prudence sounds like a Shard name, and there are probably many WoBs asking about another names. The general intent of this Shard is most likely associated with survival. Wisdom-like shard might not be survival one, as there is nothing in the WoBs suggesting that survival is connected to its intent. 

Except that Prudence was implied to be the Wisdom shard at least in the mind of the one asking the WOB, and both of those connected WOBs do suggest Wisdom is (or was in my theorizing) was the Survival shard as well. I wonder if maybe Discretion is a better name than Prudence for the Wisdom/Survival shard. It would also be an Intent that seems at odds with Hoid’s modus operandi.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Except that Prudence was implied to be the Wisdom shard at least in the mind of the one asking the WOB, and both of those connected WOBs do suggest Wisdom is (or was in my theorizing) was the Survival shard as well. I wonder if maybe Discretion is a better name than Prudence for the Wisdom/Survival shard. It would also be an Intent that seems at odds with Hoid’s modus operandi.

Wisdom-like shard was only told to realised over time, that survival is not the best option, but nothing else was said about it being the survival shard. It doesn't need to be survival shard to realised that. And if survival shard has its intent strongly connected to survival, than coming to that conclusion is partially against its intent, but it's still possible for it to happen, as it doesn't mean that it doesn't want to survive.

5 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Not in the way they are expressed by Virtuosity and Wisdom as I detailed.

We have NOTHING to say how Virtuosity and Wisdom-like shard are expressing their intents. Odium name is all about hate, yet he values Passion not just hate.

[lacrossedeamon]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Wisdom-like shard was only told to realised over time, that survival is not the best option, but nothing else was said about it being the survival shard. It doesn't need to be survival shard to realised that. And if survival shard has its intent strongly connected to survival, than coming to that conclusion is partially against its intent, but it's still possible for it to happen, as it doesn't mean that it doesn't want to survive.

The way the questioner ask in the WOB implies they think the Wisdom shard and Survival shard is the same. And Sanderson has said that survival is only tangentially related to the Intent.

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

I guess you could assume he’s talking about Fear but I think he is connecting the Intent back to survival in the last comment.

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We have NOTHING to say how Virtuosity and Wisdom-like shard are expressing their intents. Odium name is all about hate, yet he values Passion not just hate.

In that case we can’t judge if they are similar either

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

The way the questioner ask in the WOB implies they think the Wisdom shard and Survival shard is the same.

But Brandon answered in such a way, that it doesn't imply that Wisdom-like shard and Survival shard are the same. In this case it doesn't matter what questioner asked, the answer is what matters.

19 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

In that case we can’t judge if they are similar either

We can only do it by their intents. Not how they are expressing them. And by their intents, they are similar, by definition.

[lacrossedeamon]

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But Brandon answered in such a way, that it doesn't imply that Wisdom-like shard and Survival shard are the same. In this case it doesn't matter what questioner asked, the answer is what matters.

Except he does answer in such a way that he does connect Wisdom to Survival at least in a general point in time.

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We can only do it by their intents. Not how they are expressing them. And by their intents, they are similar, by definition.

And by definition I don’t think they are that similar. Again for the reasons I gave previously. Virtuosity to me is a more naturally gifted derived skill rather than one acquired through external experiences.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

It could be either way. We have a series of WoB's that can apply to either one or two separate Shards, and Virtuosity can be one of, both, or neither. 

We know this:

• A Shard wants to hide and survive
• A Shard has an Intent similar to Wisdom
• The Survival Shard's Intent is only tangentially relevant to it's want to hide
• The Survival Shard has not settled on a planet
• The Wisdom Shard has realized that survival might not be the most important (Emphasis on has realized)
•  The Survival Shard is specifically described as smart twice: "the Shard that wants to hide, let's just say, they are quite intelligent in their decision to not get caught" and "Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there"
• We also know that Virtuosity never settled on a planet, and never stayed in one place for long.

I think it's relatively easy to conclude that the Wisdom and Survival Shards are one and the same. It could be that they aren't, but it's more likely that they are, given the wording of the statements.

On 1/9/2023 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

Virtuosity did have a planet though, two of them in fact.

No, she didn't. WoB says she never stuck to one place. The planets in Nightmare Painter are probably places where she stopped for a while, or just had enough ambient Investiture to allow for Spren-like beings to form.

On 1/9/2023 at 3:20 PM, Frustration said:

"Wisdom" was never the shard that wanted to survive.

Brandon stressed that 'Wisdom' realized that surviving was no longer a priority, so it did want to hide and survive, even if it wasn't the 'Survival' Shard

On 1/9/2023 at 4:00 PM, Frustration said:

Which they aren't. One has the sole desire of surviving, the other doesn't want to. What would the point of having a shard that just wants to live only to have them lose that desire and kill themselves off screen?

Everyone prioreties survival at one point.

You're confusing desire with Intent. The Shard is prioritizing hiding because it figured that something bad will happen if it doesn't (probably Odium). It doesn't mean that the Shard wants to do nothing else, just that it's putting everything else on hold because it fears for its life. If, after being on the run for millennia, it decides that it'd rather just risk it, it doesn't seem so outrageous to me. As for suicide offscreen, we're not arguing Virtuosity is both the Survival and Wisdom Shard, just the S and W are the same Shard. Even if Virtuosity is the Shard, it doesn't mean we won't ever see their story at all. In fact, There's a WoB that We'll see Virtuosity's story in a later book.

On 1/9/2023 at 4:18 PM, Frustration said:

Sole desire

  Hide contents

Chaos

Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before.

Brandon Sanderson

There is one who just wants to hide and survive.

General Signed Books 2011 (Nov. 8, 2011)

Just wants to, as in, that's the only thing it desires.

If I knew a serial killer was hunting my kind, I'd give up everything else to hide too. Doesnt mean I wont change my mind after doing nothing but running and hiding for thousands of years.

On 1/9/2023 at 4:28 PM, Frustration said:

Which is why it would be wierd to even include that if it were immediately thrown out.

The "Wisdom" shard and "Survivial" shard have two completely different goals, they cannot be the same

There's nothing keeping them from simply being the same Shard at different points in time. So long as it's not the Intent, and we know it isn't, a Shard's goals can change.

Does this mean Virtuosity is the Wisdom/Survival Shard? Not by far, even though there are some connections. It doesn't even definitively prove that the Wisdom and Survival Shards are the same. But its far from impossible, likely even. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper