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Secret Project 3 reactions


Honorless

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Was hoping it was Taldain - single dark star, perpetual night, glowing lights? That all sounded like Darkside but...  it's a new Shardworld!

Also a new Shard - Virtuosity! Who... Splintered herself.... uh... because she thought it was virtuous to sacrifice herself or felt she was undeserving of the power maybe?

It's possible that we're seeing the Cognitive Realm of the planet, where the Nightmare Painter lives. That single star could be the sun of the Cognitive Realm, which is distant here? (Also, look at the term: Nightmare Painter, perhaps nightmares manifesting in the Cognitive). It's about time we went on a planet where people live on the other side! Could also just be that their star is very distant from the planet, in which case those magic lines are the only thing keeping them alive.

I have no idea what's going on with the darkness though - even Hoid doesn't!

Hoid is narrating this story to a Rosharan, probably Jasnah, I think

Hmm... so on the same planet, on the other side is a star that's far too close. Sounds like a red dwarf. Another Taldain situation, it seems. Interesting reasoning for weird Japanese wooden sandals, haha, I always boggled whenever I saw those depicted in anime. Hmm spirits huh, so these people also have spren like entities, makes sense, a Shard was Splintered here, after all. Roshar has its spren and Sel its Seons and Skaze for the same reason, as well as Threnody its Shades. Huh, another location where the local flora uses Investiture, they're floating in the air - ...taking nutrients from the air? What the hell, how does that work?

Oh - nightmares manifesting, so it is on the Cognitive! Huh, this effect reminds me of the titular Aether of Night.

"on Painter's world"? Hmm are these two different planets, seeing the same star but from a distance? I hope my dreams of a world whose inhabitants... inhabit both the Physical and the Cognitive aren't going to go up in flames (not counting Roshar, spren and humans & Parsh are different)

Not a star! That's a planet! Okay then... two planets. Hmm why is the Painter's world completely starless - oh right, the shroud, the darkness thingy, I forgot, ugh, so and this other planet, on which the Chosen girl lives, which looked like a star from the distance to the people of the Painter's world, it is the only celestial body whose light cuts through the veil of darkness. Is it more Invested?

Also, the... ley lines? linear auroras? magic neon lighting? *checks term* ah, the hion lines, they stretch all the way to space!?

Nightmares are being described as predators that feed on the mind, Hoid is grouping them with the predators on First of the Sun and the Shades of Threnody, seems logical, even the spren of Roshar technically count (well the emotion spren, not the nature spren). Never thought to group them like that before! So simple in hindsight.

I was curious what exactly a Nightmare Painter would do. I was expecting something like Sai from Naruto, creating living paintings (I forgot Rithmatist was a thing, lol). I was wondering if he'd use the hion lines or the shroud as paint, but he's just using normal paint. Hmm sealing? Or... this might not be an Invested Art at all. It might just be... how Nightmares are, and the Painters are just turning their own nature against them.

"prospective rivers", lol. I was wondering about how they got water on a baking planet... no I was not - where was she bathing again? Wasn't that a lake? Ah, a cold spring. So there are cold springs and hot springs on this planet whose surface is scalding, because of too much heat as it is too close to a red dwarf (and sound like they can see its solar flares, iirc, red dwarfs have bigger flares and more frequently). I'm not sure if all that works under normal physics, it sounds like it can but I'm not sure? Ooh, migratory flora and tree herders, I like that idea! Uh... these trees and some of those houses have to be riding more than the thermals though?

Fay? Is Hoid just using that word in a superstitious sense, or is that actually a type of entity. Also, what kind of creativity do Seons respond to? We really need that Elantris sequel and more details about that world. I think that's a joke about Radiants inhaling Stormlight from spheres and Jasnah hasn't literally started eating marbles...

Huh, she is attracting the spirits and... temporarily binding them... its kinda like temporary Soulcasters.

Should probably list down the types:

Pair of light orbs: bright and dim

Pair of repelling, takes the the form of grimacing statues

Flyers, which sound like drones (also they've domesticated crows!)

Spirit saw (wonder how they compare to Shardblades)

Sounds like the process does take Investiture, so its not just using the Spirit's nature and training oneself in art to attract them, then asking them for help. The spirits are bound by... sympathetic magic in rock Jenga art, and its quite reminiscent of the Surge of Adhesion. (Low power Bondsmith?)

Also, sounds like Investiture is distributed by heat here?

Painter's world uses the lines for light, and for heat, this is also how their plants grow (though the people do also have mundane science). Wonder why the lights repel the shroud though. Do they not come from the same Shard?

Hoid... owns the restaurant, well, in part. And Design is working there? Wonder how much time it took for them to crack taking spren off-world. Looking forward to seeing Kelsier elsewhere, maybe perhaps in Secret Project #4 itself, who knows!

"A complicated wireframe Lightweaving with force projections attached directly to her cognitive element as it manifested in the physical realm." oh. my. god. Solid-ish illusions huh, like Shallan displayed in OB, so... that Surge is a bit wide on the electromagnetism manipulation huh. This is... getting crazy... Lightweaver best Order.

Oh, Hoid can see things through Design, makes sense, I guess. Huh, guess chopsticks are just gonna be called MaiPon sticks in the Cosmere. Sel is going to become influential in the future, I assume.

Oh look: " I suggest, if you have the option, that you avoid trying to meet a Cryptic’s gaze. Their features—when undisguised—bend space and time, and have been known to lead to acute bouts of madness in those who try to make sense of them. Then again, who hasn’t wanted to flip off linear continuity now and then, eh?" Lightweavers have the best spren too. Aww, I love Design! Did I mention that Lightweavers have the best spren?

?!?! Hoid is frozen in time like a statue?! Well, he got better, apparently. But. What. How? What! Wait... is this how his time skipping works?

Rose petals and starlight, bruh this girl lives like how TV show heroines are shown to be living, lol. Mention of Scadrial!

Ah what Yumi's planet refers to as the Daystar is the other planet. Also uh-oh that wish. This... might turn into a Your Name situation! They both want what the other has. Interesting that this spirit says they're imprisoned.

Huh, she can Connect to spirits, I get that, but how did she reach this one then? Especially if they're really on the Painter's world? Does she naturally project her thoughts in the Cognitive Realm?

Boy, I sure do hope she isn't going to free some terrible bound Nightmare. Hopefully, she instead frees the planet from the Shroud.

Oh no, please write down what you encountered with your brush! And too late, the switcheroo has happened. You know, this story kinda has a reworked Aether of Night feeling, now that I think about it. Wait, not a switch, he got summoned to Yumi. He's in her body and she's incorporeal.

Ah, Brandon said "one another’s magic systems", so that binding / sealing via painting thing is an Invested Art too, not just tricking the Nightmares. Or we didn't see the Invested version of what Painter was doing - we didn't get to see the Dreamwatch, who we're told handled stable Nightmares

 

Oh, I should've mentioned this at the beginning, I was reacting as I was listening (and later reading)

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1 minute ago, Honorless said:

Also a new Shard - Virtuosity! Who... Splintered herself.... uh... because she thought it was virtuous to sacrifice herself or felt she was undeserving of the power maybe.

The Shard is Virtuosity, not Virtue - Virtuosity means being especially skilled in the arts.

Quote

It's possible that we're seeing the Cognitive Realm of the planet, where the Nightmare Painter lives.

I mentioned this on another post, I believe Painter and Yumi are on different planets in the same system. They're definitely in the Physical Realm, given the scene with Design.

 

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16 minutes ago, phraps said:

I mentioned this on another post, I believe Painter and Yumi are on different planets in the same system. They're definitely in the Physical Realm, given the scene with Design.

Yeah it seemed to me to be that the "star" Painter sees and then says they've recently discovered is a planet was probably Yumi's

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I don't think I'm going to be a big fan of this book, stylistically. The storytelling style is a little drawn-out and obtuse for me, and the body-swapping premise (which Brandon elaborates on at the end) doesn't really intrigue me, either. But these previews have a good bit of cosmere lore in them that will be making up for it.

Let's start with the target audience. The first clue immediately points straight to Roshar, describing Rosharan nationalities. But things quickly fall apart; Hoid is referencing apartment buildings and power poles and firefighters and other anachronisms to current Roshar. So did that mean that Hoid is talking to future Rosharans? But then it starts to get even more difficult to reconcile: eating "marbles" instead of eating "spheres," and a straight-up reference to Scadrial. But why would Hoid use the Rosharan opening if the listener was Scadrian? To solve it, I had to go back to the marble line: "we're all going to laugh at you." Hoid isn't just talking to a single person; he's got a group, a cosmopolitan mixture of worldhoppers all gathered around. Apprentices? Friends? Hoid's Twelve Disciples? Who knows; but I think he's directing some of these comments to different individuals in the group, so I'll go out on a limb and predict that we'll get some allusions to Nalthis and Taldain as the story continues. (We've got a potential one to Sel in the "seon" reference.)

The magics on both worlds feel very much like what we see on Roshar, in terms of Cognitive entities influenced by perception and Intent. I'm going to fine-tune my question for the livestream, but it's going to be something about the extent Yumi would be able to manipulate spren in imitation of fabrials on Roshar.

The splitting the spirits in two, while that's what first turned me on to the fabrial comparisons, actually has much bigger thematic component, I think, in foreshadowing. Spirits are splitting into two opposite halves: the light sphere and the dark sphere, the up pusher statue and the down pusher statue. I'm seeing that dichotomy in the two worlds, as well: light and bright for Yumi, dark and cold for Painter. (Hate that name, by the way.) An inbuilt dichotomy in the hion lines, blue and pink, on the other planet, too. Obviously, since the two planets are in the same solar system, they're going to be pretty tightly connected in worldbuilding, and I expect them being opposites will come up more in the worldbuilding. (And, hey, I've got a half-written fanfic about a cosmere dual-planet star system which was each impacted in opposite ways by the local Shard. Good job on not writing that, me.)

Speaking of the local Shard... obviously, we got a new one, Virtuosity, and learned that she already Splintered herself. Which prompts questions in its own right: is Virtuosity the Wisdom Shard (using Wisdom as King Solomon does throughout the book of Proverbs)? Is her self-Splintering related to her Intent, or was it the Vessel acting in opposition to her Intent? But I'm focusing more on the Shard's impact on this system and the worldbuilding. Why are the two planets like this? Is Virtuosity the "dying god" from the histories? (A phrase which, oddly enough, I want to say is very similar to how Khriss described Ambition in her Threnodite essay.) I don't think that's consistent with the tone of Hoid's throwaway line; he'll know that the shroud is due to Virtuosity's Splintering, he won't have to speculate about how it lets light from the neighbor planet break through. It almost seems like Virtuosity's Splintering is a completely separate phenomenon than whatever came upon Painter's world.

Oh, and let's talk timeline. Design's there, obviously, without Hoid. So it's at least after Stormlight Five, potentially after Stormlight Ten (since I assume Hoid and Design will be hanging out throughout the series). (More parentheses; this satisfies a lot of worries about Design due to her lack of appearance in Era 2 Mistborn alongside Hoid, since it looks like they figure out a way to split up just fine.) But the catastrophe on Painter's world happened seventeen hundred years ago, which puts it suspiciously close to the time of the Recreance on Roshar, if I'm remembering it right. Which raises some more questions about Virtuosity's Splintering; did she last this long? Or was it an event that had occurred long before the body of the dying god started raining down?

Oh, and one more to ride out on "fay, seon, or spirit." Why not use "spren" here? And also, who the heck calls them "fay"? (Notably not "fey," which is how I'm used to seeing fairies referred to.)

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5 minutes ago, phraps said:

Small note, Hoid is there, just "frozen in time". He's the coatrack, poor guy. 

Ah, I see it. My first reading, I'd thought she'd made a copy of him while he was frozen, but you're right, it looks like he was the actual coatrock.

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Overall thoughts:

Virtuosity Shard name-drop was awesome, but I'll admit I'm still not entirely convinced that is the Shard's name.

Design was hilarious and totally inappropriate.

The Your Name inspiration became clear to me when the spirit offered Yumi a boon, but it became abundantly clear by the final chapter. However, I did feel it was going to be more of a Prince and the Pauper situation.

When I saw Design, there was a moment I thought that Painter's world may have been in the Cognitive Realm while Yumi's was the Physical Realm, and they're doing this sort of push-pull with each other's magic. (I have no idea how that would work, please don't ask me.)

I believe this takes place at or around Era 4 of Mistborn, or at least near Era 3. Hoid is talking to someone with technology roughly around our time (fighter fighters, nurses (so no magical healing but good enough technology), keys and apartments, electricity, etc) who is also very Cosmere-aware, so that limits when he's talking to whoever he's talking to IMO.

Brandon mentioned that the book was going to be Yumi and Painter learning about each other's magic system (and probably appreciation for each other's lives); knowing this makes me feel like Brandon could be less info-heavy on the front-end of the book. The beginning of this book made me feel like Szeth's info-dump at the beginning of TWOK. I think maybe at least for Painter, stating that using Bamboo was easier for him without stating why could be a good way to open up the conversation later on. But Brandon's the writer and he knows this story best. I'm just going off of what we've been given and what he's saying.

If Yumi and Painter don't meet by the end of the book, I would like a sequel where they travel to meet up please and thank you very much.

The switching between characters reminded me of Elantris, where it's always three characters in a distinct order. (I think. It's been a long time since I read Elantris.)

I can easily see this being animated and being beautiful.

Lastly, if this is inspired by Japanese culture, I think maybe having a Japanese American (or at least Asian-American) reader for either Yumi or Painter, or ideally both, would be greatly appreciated.

 

Overall, I'm 110% onboard with this story and on the hype train. I'm now a little sad we have to wait until next year to read it, but I look forward to reading it all the same!

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My current thoughts on Hoid's story audience is that it is either taking place on Scadrial with a Cosmere familiar audience or that it is taking place on another planet but to a primarily Scadrian audience. The "as you'd say on Scadrial" as opposed to "as they'd say on Scadrial" just makes me think that the audience is either on Scadrial or calls it home. That being said, I think it's far enough into the future that there's a lot more cultural exchange—the mix of references—Seons, MaiPon, Nimi, etc—seems like it's talking to a group that's very familiar with the Cosmere in general, but also maybe thinks of the various cultures of the Cosmere as something familiar and part of life. 

 

As for when the story events take place, I think it has to be after Era 2/Stormlight since coatrack Hoid appears to be a long-term thing. My guess is either in the 50-100 year gap between Era 2 and 3 or in the gap between Era 3 and 4. 

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5 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

Wait wait wait.

So time dilution techniques that Hoid uses are him being frozen in time and used as a coatrack? XD

If this is the normal time dilation method, it also tells us that Design doesn't skip forward with him. I'd wondered about that...

 

It is also kind of sad to me, that she has to live through years and centuries disguised as a human without her Knight Radiant. 

 

4 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I think it is a Scadrian on silverlight who has learned about all that kind of stuff and has visited Roshar.

We know there are a few people since Hoid addresses them as "Some of you" but this is a possibility. 

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So this one's a lot clearer than SP1, in terms of both timeline and Hoid's audience. Design alone makes it very obviously in the future, and we get references to lots of Cosmere things, but primarily Rosharan stuff used as touchstones- he at one point refers to money as 'Sphere'- in ways that wouldn't happen unless that's where the audience was from. But definitely not Roshar as we know it- he wouldn't casually refer to Scadrial or Virtuosity or light bulbs with anyone living there now. And he's presumably telling this story sometime post-coatrack. 

So the overall picture I'm getting is that he's talking to a Rosharan during Era 4

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Hey who remembers this WoB from last year?

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I just outlined a non-genetic magic system that I think is kind of interesting. I don't know if I'll ever get to write this book; I outline a lot of books that I don't get to write. But it was a really interesting idea for a magic system where a child was chosen by society when they were a newborn to gain the powers. You know, kind of for the good of society. And being one of these people, instead, I thought... Like I said, the implications are really interesting for that narrative story, is that you're forced, even from childhood you were chosen by everybody. You weren't born to it; but how do you choose a newborn? They just chose one, and now you've gotta live the rest of your life (Hope you picked a good one!) dealing with these implications. That's been very interesting to outline and think about, the effects on the character.

Questioner

Is that Cosmere or non-Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

That one is Cosmere.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Compare that with lines from the story about the Chosen:

Quote

A powerful sign, if you believed in such things. There’s an old joke that notes lost items tend to be in the last place one looks. By converse, omens tend to appear in the first place people look for them.

Yumi did believe in signs. She had to—as though she rarely spent time thinking about them these days, an omen had been the single most important event in her life. The one that had appeared right after her birth. The one that had marked her as Chosen by the spirits.

...

Yumi was one of the Chosen, picked at birth by omen, granted the ability to influence the hijo, the spirits. It was an enormous honor among her people. And they never let her forget it.

...

Liyun snapped her book closed, watching Yumi. “Surely,” she said, “that is what you want. You wouldn’t actively desire to do something that would embarrass your station. To imply you regret your place. Would you, Chosen?”

“Never,” Yumi whispered.

“You were honored,” Liyun said, “of all the children born that year to be given this calling, these powers. One of only fourteen currently living.”

“I know.”

“You are special.”

She would have preferred to be less special—but she felt guilty the moment she thought it. Why would she second guess the spirits?

...

You have already blessed me, she said. With the greatest gift a mortal can have. I accept my burden. It is for the best of my people. Forgive my idle thoughts earlier.

Looks to me like there are no actual omens; I'm sure that's going to be a big turning point for Yumi's character arc once she realizes she isn't inherently special and that the spirits didn't choose her.

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11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Looks like these two worlds are going to be powerhouses. Unless there are more restrictions we don't know about they could rival even Roshar and Scadrial.

Their tech base relies on materialized Invested entities. It is most likely that it cannot be taken out of the star system.

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3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What makes you say that?

The spiritbinding Yumi does.

If you can make investiture tech limited only by population and effort then you are poised to be powerful. From the looks of it they could probably make shardblades and probably some version of plate as well.

@Oltux72 well neither can Spren, or Sel's magic, but that hasn't stopped them.

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Just now, Frustration said:

The spiritbinding Yumi does.

If you can make investiture tech limited only by population and effort then you are poised to be powerful. From the looks of it they could probably make shardblades and probably some version of plate as well.

That is possible, but I'm guessing they're a bit too late in the timeline. They're probably around MB era 3-4, meaning they're greatly underdeveloped compared to Roshar/Scadrial.

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Just now, Nameless said:

That is possible, but I'm guessing they're a bit too late in the timeline. They're probably around MB era 3-4, meaning they're greatly underdeveloped compared to Roshar/Scadrial.

Given that they were partially based on Japan which went from an isolated preindustrial society to a military powerhouse in a remarkably short period of time I don't think that will be a huge problem.

Introduction to other worlds, particularly ones with ways to use investiture to get food and water will quickly advance their civilization. Especially since they are already capable of spacefaring.

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Just now, Frustration said:

Given that they were partially based on Japan which went from an isolated preindustrial society to a military powerhouse in a remarkably short period of time I don't think that will be a huge problem.

I don't think they have anywhere near the technology to get that far, and they're a lot more isolated than Japan. They have to figure out consistent cognitive realm travel, how to get investiture out of their system, and they have to weaponize their investiture. That'll take a while, and it's much more likely that their high-potential magic system will be manipulated by more advanced civilisations.

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Giant. Crows.

Plus all that other stuff already mentioned. But giant crows xD In all seriousness, the cosmere infodumps were kind of insane, a Shard name, proof that Design can get off world (which we already guessed was possible but I don't think we knew?) and just general world stuff. I'm thinking the Nightmares and the Spirits are definitely connected in some way, like the Spirits are trapped as Nightmares until they're drawn by the Chosen or something. 

To me it doesn't really matter who Hoid's talking to since they're obviously extremely cosmere aware- someone mentioned Era 4 Rosharan and I like that idea but it easily could just be Era 4 anybody. This one probably takes the spot for my favorite of the secret projects (barely edging out Tress) but I think Four will inevitably end up being my favorite :P. I don't love body swap as a concept in general but this is different enough and most of my experience with the trope is bad movies, so I trust that Brandon can do better :P

Edited by Matrim's Dice
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