Why Silver AND Salt?

[Bort]

Silver is also referenced in Mistborn as being "that useless metal" - Vin's shackles and the screws in her prison in Hero of Ages. I don't think it'll destroy Investiture though. I think the Inquisitors would have already known about that, instead of having to use Aluminium.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, iceblade44 said:

And? That doesn't really tell us much. All the Shards have a similar relationship so its unclear whether the Evil was made by Adonalsium or by Ambition, since it is technically the same

The argument was that silver is effective on stuff that is separate from Adonalsium. The Evil is not separate from Adonalsium, and neither are the shades:

Quote

danimalod

I just read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?

Brandon Sanderson

Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.

Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

They have Investiture that keeps them alive, and all Investiture comes from Adonalsium:

Quote

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[+Oltux72]

44 minutes ago, Bort said:

Silver is also referenced in Mistborn as being "that useless metal" - Vin's shackles and the screws in her prison in Hero of Ages. I don't think it'll destroy Investiture though. I think the Inquisitors would have already known about that, instead of having to use Aluminium.

Neither does alumium destroy Investiture. It blocks it. Scadrial does not have Cognitive Shadows in great numbers. We do not know what it would do to Kelsier. We know three effects

• It harms Threnodite Shades
• It undoes the withering effect of injuries by Shades
• It kills spores of Lumaran aether

What it does not do is far less clear. It does not do Allomancy. I think we must assume that it does not work against the Fused or the Returned. But that is an assumption.

Now, prior to TOTES the theory that silver specifically works against Ambition's Investiture was parsimonous.
Now that would require that the aethers of Lumar at least were influenced by Ambition. When, where, how?

[+Bzhydack]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Now that would require that the aethers of Lumar at least were influenced by Ambition. When, where, how?

We know Ambition fled from Threnody to unspecified location and was killed there. Why this cant be Lumar?

[iceblade44]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

The argument was that silver is effective on stuff that is separate from Adonalsium. The Evil is not separate from Adonalsium, and neither are the shades:

Gotcha, sorry for the confusion then

[CryoZenith]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What it does not do is far less clear. It does not do Allomancy. I think we must assume that it does not work against the Fused or the Returned. But that is an assumption.

We just need Vasher or Leshwy to sustain a shallow cut from a silver blade in SA 5 and we'll be able to put that to rest. My guess is most cogshadows don't care.

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

We know Ambition fled from Threnody to unspecified location and was killed there. Why this cant be Lumar?

I cannot absolutely rule it out, but

• quite some coincidence
• Is this system close to Threnody?
• We then need to find a separate reason for these core aethers to come to Lumar

[Bort]

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Neither does alumium destroy Investiture. It blocks it. Scadrial does not have Cognitive Shadows in great numbers. We do not know what it would do to Kelsier. We know three effects

• It harms Threnodite Shades
• It undoes the withering effect of injuries by Shades
• It kills spores of Lumaran aether

What it does not do is far less clear. It does not do Allomancy. I think we must assume that it does not work against the Fused or the Returned. But that is an assumption.

Now, prior to TOTES the theory that silver specifically works against Ambition's Investiture was parsimonous.
Now that would require that the aethers of Lumar at least were influenced by Ambition. When, where, how?

Take a look at Coppermind. Aluminium, when burned by a Mistborn, destroys their metal reserves.

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Bort said:

Take a look at Coppermind. Aluminium, when burned by a Mistborn, destroys their metal reserves.

Yes, but it does nor depower a fabrial. The effect in allomancy is specific to allomancy, because the metal is the connection to Preservation.

[Bort]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but it does nor depower a fabrial. The effect in allomancy is specific to allomancy, because the metal is the connection to Preservation.

I have to disagree with you on this. Preservation did something to Scadrial's metals, true, however, the "Fabrial Mechanics" lecture Navani gives in RoW (early book epigraphs) shows a definite link between the metals used in fabrials, and the effects they have as being very similar to Allomancy.

What we definitely know aluminium does on Roshar is block emanations from soulcasters and fabrials. It's this technology which allows the Fourth Bridge to fly properly.

From Coppermind:

Aluminum has been confirmed to have strange effects to all magic systems, is magically inert, and will act as an Investiture sink.

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Bort said:

I have to disagree with you on this. Preservation did something to Scadrial's metals, true, however, the "Fabrial Mechanics" lecture Navani gives in RoW (early book epigraphs) shows a definite link between the metals used in fabrials, and the effects they have as being very similar to Allomancy.

Yes, but a fabrial is not powered by the metal. And that is a very big difference.

1 minute ago, Bort said:

What we definitely know aluminium does on Roshar is block emanations from soulcasters and fabrials. It's this technology which allows the Fourth Bridge to fly properly.

It does so everywhere. Hence the aluminium shielding in soothing parlours.

1 minute ago, Bort said:

From Coppermind:

Aluminum has been confirmed to have strange effects to all magic systems, is magically inert, and will act as an Investiture sink.

That is not the full story. It has a role in feruchemy and hemalurgy. There is a link to Identity.

[Bort]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but a fabrial is not powered by the metal. And that is a very big difference.

How is it a big difference? The effects the metals are having is exactly the same.

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It does so everywhere. Hence the aluminium shielding in soothing parlours.

Exactly, meaning that it couldn't be down to Preservation, as this effect happens all over the Cosmere.

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is not the full story. It has a role in feruchemy and hemalurgy. There is a link to Identity.

It has a link to Identity in Feruchemy, which it seems no-one understands. In Hemalurgy it acts just like it does in every other magic system. It prevents the use of power, by removing ANY Investiture the person being spiked has. It removes their ability to access Cosmere magic systems entirely, by the looks of it.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

How is it a big difference? The effects the metals are having is exactly the same.

Tin?

2 hours ago, Bort said:

Exactly, meaning that it couldn't be down to Preservation, as this effect happens all over the Cosmere.

1. That line of reasoning depends on aluminium being different from other metals in the Cosmere. It is not. Metals work in fabrials.
2. It is not clear how different the effect of aluminium is from other systems in allomancy. It removes alien Investiture. It does not remove all Investiture. Spikes stay.

2 hours ago, Bort said:

It has a link to Identity in Feruchemy, which it seems no-one understands. In Hemalurgy it acts just like it does in every other magic system. It prevents the use of power, by removing ANY Investiture the person being spiked has. It removes their ability to access Cosmere magic systems entirely, by the looks of it.

Well, no. It does not affect metalminds. It does not affect spikes. And, it does not destroy your spirit web, which is made from Investiture. The effect on an allomancer's store of metal can be explained that way. They hold Preservation's Investiture, which is alien to the allomancer.

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Tin?

To in-universe scholars, Tin seems to have the opposite effect when used in a fabrial compared to when an allomancer burns it, but I think the effects are actually kind of similar. Whenever I think about it, I always come back to what Spook told Vin about Tin. "It's not what you see with it, it's what you DON'T see." - To paraphrase him.

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

1. That line of reasoning depends on aluminium being different from other metals in the Cosmere. It is not. Metals work in fabrials.
2. It is not clear how different the effect of aluminium is from other systems in allomancy. It removes alien Investiture. It does not remove all Investiture. Spikes stay.

Spikes may stay, the powers granted by those spikes, not so much.

From Coppermind's page on aluminium, emphasis mine:

Quote

When used as a Hemalurgic spike, aluminum removes all powers, such as Allomancy or sand mastery.

 

23 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. It does not affect metalminds. It does not affect spikes. And, it does not destroy your spirit web, which is made from Investiture. The effect on an allomancer's store of metal can be explained that way. They hold Preservation's Investiture, which is alien to the allomancer.

Doesn't affect metalminds? You mean apart from being the deciding factor on if someone can use a metalmind or not, and being the only way an unkeyed metalmind can be created?

And once again, when used in hemalurgy, it destroy all other powers the spiked one may possess. I see nothing at all saying that other hemalurgic spikes would be immune to this effect. In my last post, I should have used the word powers instead of Investiture.

And while you're right in that it doesn't destroy your spirit web, I wonder what effect an aluminium spike would have on someone from Nalthis. Would it steal their Breath?

[IndigoAjah]

On 14/03/2022 at 5:36 AM, Oltux72 said:

• The Evil made them evavuate the main continent
• Nazh knows the rituals to become a Shadow abd he calls Kelsir a Shadow, not a Shade. People in Silence's time so not.
• Nazh cannot describe the Evil. He did not operate under the Evil.

We'd know. Shardbearers and some Radiants were surely rich. As are the Returned. And the Fused are elite. Of they have a problem with fine cutlery oe jewelery we'd know. If defeating a Fused were as easy as stabbing them with a silver dinner knife, that would have been discovered.

 

Well, that rather depends on silver being existent or seen the same way as it is in our world.

 

Do we have any insight into the day to day use or value of silver on Roshar? 

 

 

Interestingly Silver must have some properties of interest on Scadrial:. 

Quote

 

Kenzal

 

Would it make an Allomancer sick if they tried to burn pure silver?

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

As it stands right now, nothing would happen, because they would know if it did. Good question. Silver has some weird properties, but on Scadrial they are largely undiscovered.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by IndigoAjah
Avoid double post

[+Oltux72]

9 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Well, that rather depends on silver being existent or seen the same way as it is in our world.

 

Do we have any insight into the day to day use or value of silver on Roshar?

They did not name the Silver Kingdoms after the metal out of disdain, did they?

[Humble_Knight]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They did not name the Silver Kingdoms after the metal out of disdain, did they?

I took it as kingdoms run by people in silvery armor, Radiants. All shards seem to be silvery, with various colors changing by order

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Humble_Knight said:

I took it as kingdoms run by people in silvery armor, Radiants. All shards seem to be silvery, with various colors changing by order

Interesting notion. But you need to explain why they kept the name. Later Roshar had a much dimmer view of the Knights Radiant.

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Interestingly Silver must have some properties of interest on Scadrial:. 

I take that WoB as meaning that silver is useful for things like Shades and the aethers, but people on Scadrial haven't found that out. It doesn't say that it has uses that are specific to Scadrial.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

I don't think the "salt" it mentions is table salt, sodium chloride, as we think of it. The book mentions the salt rocks being *black* if i remember correctly. So here's my proposition:

Quote

Silver chloride is a chemical compound with the chemical formula AgCl. This white crystalline solid is well known for its low solubility in water. Upon illumination or heating, silver chloride converts to silver, which is signaled by grey to black or purplish coloration to some samples. AgCl occurs naturally as a mineral chlorargyrite.

 

[Adonalsium's Eigenbasis]

My current theory on silver is one of two things: 

 

1. Silver kills corrupted investiture (implying the spores are corrupted)

2. Silver kills fainlife-related investiture (not sure this even makes sense). Given Uli Da was Sho Del, this partially explains the effects on Threndoite Shades. The assumption here is then that the Aethers are somehow related to fainlife which is not backed up by any evidence as far as I'm aware.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

1 minute ago, Adonalsium's Eigenbasis said:

The assumption here is then that the Aethers are somehow related to fainlife which is not backed up by any evidence as far as I'm aware.

This definitely isn't "evidence" but I do think that metanarratively it would make sense if this were the case. I know brandon's said that aethers are the last of the main magic systems for the cosmere that we haven't seen. And it would make sense for at least one of the major magic systems to originate from Yolen imo, since that was the planet where everything started.

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

Do you think anything in the future would change [Isaac Stewart and Steve Argyle's] minds [on Lightweaving being the magic system they would want to have]?

Brandon Sanderson

No. I mean, there will be other magics. But we have hit all of the core cosmere magics, except for the aethers. And I don't think aethers will be enough to tempt them away. Possibly. That would be my guess. I mean, there will be other little magics, because I always have things like that that I'm writing. But there's only one major magic system that hasn't been used extensively on-screen.

 

Additionally, originally aethers were going to be pre-shattering though it's unclear whether that's still the case.

 

Spoiler

 

Pagerunner

Are the Aethers from one of the Shards that we know? Or are they of a Shard we haven't learned about?

Brandon Sanderson

Right now they are pre-Shattering.

But I will probably change that.

 

 

[Adonalsium's Eigenbasis]

Yeah, my understanding is that the Aethers are pre-Shattering still given that Brandon recently mentioned (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/490-secret-project-1-reveal-and-livestream/#e15429) that the Aethers don't consider themselves to have been created by Adonalsium. In the Liar of Partinel draft, Brandon was trying to bring the Aethers (in a different form I think) to Yolen's magic system, and it wasn't connected w/fainlife there (at least it didn't appear to be). So it is very plausible that if he kept going down that route, the Aethers are pre-Shattering magic that aren't fain-related. But who knows if things have changed.

 

Of course, a third possibility is that the spores are fain-related, and are somehow combined with the Aethers...

Edited March 19, 2022 by Adonalsium's Eigenbasis

[CryoZenith]

On 18.03.2022 at 6:29 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I don't think the "salt" it mentions is table salt, sodium chloride, as we think of it. The book mentions the salt rocks being *black* if i remember correctly. So here's my proposition:

 

Oooh. This sounds right

[Zibus]

18 hours ago, Adonalsium's Eigenbasis said:

Of course, a third possibility is that the spores are fain-related, and are somehow combined with the Aethers...

Now that would be a fun twist. Fain aethers vs "norm" aethers.