Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[NameIess]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

And I'm not saying it affects the level of Investiture exactly, so much as whether that Investiture is "active". I mean, investiture can be converted into matter or energy, but if Harmony created a block of iron out of Investiture I don't think it would be any harder to Push or Pull on or Soulcast than regular iron (all matter on Scadrial might have been created that way originally?)

Harmony can't make iron out of investiture. he can convert investiture into iron.

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think a full metalmind has more mass than an empty one - the Investiture is kind of in another Realm (which is why Ruin's metal blindness didn't prevent him from changing the contents of copperminds - the Investiture isn't really within the metal, just linked/keyed to it).

So the Investiture stored using a metalmind makes it count as Invested, but the Investiture equivalent of its physical mass doesn't.

So I don't think there is a necessary relationship between the Investiture level of a completely full metalmind and the Investiture level of the same mass of godmetal. (Which is why, IMO, you can use godmetals in Feruchemy/Hemalurgy at all - they don't count as "already 100% full" since the investiture is stored in a different way).

That explanation of metalminds makes sense, but if Sprenblades are hard to soulcast, then Atium is too. Also there's this WoB:

Quote

Phantine

Could you soulcast atium from god-metal into god-wood?

Brandon Sanderson

Soulcasting atium would take a heap-ton of Investiture. You'd need a huge source to power that. 

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)

5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I doubt they're exactly equal. If anything, the Honorblades are possibly less Invested - they're not sapient Splinters, and they are at least sometimes smaller.

Now the Honorblades give Surgebinding powers and a dead-blade doesn't, but that involves drawing in extra Investiture (Stormlight). And anyway that dead-blade would have given Surgebinding back when it was a live Radiant spren.

Ishar's Honorblade is definitely more invested than any non-bondsmith sprenblade.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I'd say that the threshold of being a shardblade is being as invested as a godmetal. A completely full metalmind cannot become that invested, as metal cannot normally hold enough investiture to equal something made of investiture. Nightblood is of course the exception to this, as he is so full of investiture that it leaks out of him unless he has his sheath.

The problem with that is that Atium resists shardblades but is not a shardblade itself.

Spoiler

Andrassy

If atium is a metal that is relevant throughout the Cosmere, which seems to be the case from your comment, then it could have special properties that go beyond its use in allomancy, so that this metal that is relevant to everything doesn't only feel useful in Mistborn.

I'd be interested to know, for instance, if it's at all useful in the forging of weapons or whatever. Anyway I dunno I'm just a very early reader and I'm already trying to give the author ideas, but from my perspective I don't see why atium not being used by all allomancers is a big problem. The usefulness of atium could go way beyond allomancy perhaps.

Brandon Sanderson

It does! And yes, atium weapons would be very useful (even atium alloy) for doing things like resisting Shardblades. So there is quite a bit of application.

General Reddit 2020 (June 23, 2020)

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

The problem with that is that Atium resists shardblades but is not a shardblade itself.

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Andrassy

If atium is a metal that is relevant throughout the Cosmere, which seems to be the case from your comment, then it could have special properties that go beyond its use in allomancy, so that this metal that is relevant to everything doesn't only feel useful in Mistborn.

I'd be interested to know, for instance, if it's at all useful in the forging of weapons or whatever. Anyway I dunno I'm just a very early reader and I'm already trying to give the author ideas, but from my perspective I don't see why atium not being used by all allomancers is a big problem. The usefulness of atium could go way beyond allomancy perhaps.

Brandon Sanderson

It does! And yes, atium weapons would be very useful (even atium alloy) for doing things like resisting Shardblades. So there is quite a bit of application.

General Reddit 2020 (June 23, 2020)

 

Well, the God King isn't a shardblade. Shardblades aren't just something with a certain level of investiture.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Harmony can't make iron out of investiture. he can convert investiture into iron.

That explanation of metalminds makes sense, but if Sprenblades are hard to soulcast, then Atium is too. Also there's this WoB:

Ishar's Honorblade is definitely more invested than any non-bondsmith sprenblade.

I don't see the difference between "make iron out of Investiture" and "convert Investiture to iron". Either way he starts with X amount of Investiture and ends with Y mass of iron.

How do we know Ishar's Honorblade is necessarily more Invested, vs just granting more impressive/useful powers? The Surges themselves are powered by Stormlight, not by Investiture in the spren or Honorblade - otherwise Szeth in WOK wouldn't need to inhale Stormlight.

I don't think a Pewter Misting is necessarily more Invested than a Gold Misting, though the power is way more useful.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't see the difference between "make iron out of Investiture" and "convert Investiture to iron". Either way he starts with X amount of Investiture and ends with Y mass of iron.

I was emphasizing the difference between normal matter and godmetals. A godmetal is investiture made manifest in the physical realm, normal matter on Scadrial is investiture converted into matter.

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

How do we know Ishar's Honorblade is necessarily more Invested, vs just granting more impressive/useful powers? The Surges themselves are powered by Stormlight, not by Investiture in the spren or Honorblade - otherwise Szeth in WOK wouldn't need to inhale Stormlight.

Bondsmiths have the power of gods. If the powers of a Bondsmith could be granted by a normal-power spren, then there'd be hundreds of bondsmiths and Roshar would be Ashyn 2.0. And Ishar can use his powers without stormlight. If he needed stormlight to use them, he'd never be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity anywhere besides a highstorm.

8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think a Pewter Misting is necessarily more Invested than a Gold Misting, though the power is way more useful.

I agree. However, the difference between a Bondsmith and a Skybreaker is very very different from the difference between two types of misting. One wields the power of a god without restrictions, causing the Shards of Adonalsium to fear him, the other can fly and make stuff break.

[cometaryorbit]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I was emphasizing the difference between normal matter and godmetals. A godmetal is investiture made manifest in the physical realm, normal matter on Scadrial is investiture converted into matter.

Bondsmiths have the power of gods. If the powers of a Bondsmith could be granted by a normal-power spren, then there'd be hundreds of bondsmiths and Roshar would be Ashyn 2.0. And Ishar can use his powers without stormlight. If he needed stormlight to use them, he'd never be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity anywhere besides a highstorm.

I agree. However, the difference between a Bondsmith and a Skybreaker is very very different from the difference between two types of misting. One wields the power of a god without restrictions, causing the Shards of Adonalsium to fear him, the other can fly and make stuff break.

Hmm, ok... though the HoA epigraphs imply that atium is different since it's all-Ruin whereas random rocks on Scadrial are half Ruin, half Preservation.

Though I don't know how that would apply to one-Shard worlds like Taldain or Nalthis (though, maybe those Shards didn't create those planets? But still, if raysium exists, there's probably a theoretical edglium or bavadinium that would be distinct from any random matter made by those Shards...)

I remain unconvinced that the impressiveness of an end-positive power (fueled by external Investiture) is related to how Invested the thing is that gives you that power. Bondsmiths only come from the three largest spren, true, but then Honor was specifically interested in limiting Surgebinding.

*Ishar* may be able to use his powers without Stormlight, but I think that's a Herald plus Honorblade thing, not a pure Honorblade thing. If Lirin picked up Ishar's Honorblade, I think he'd need to inhale Stormlight.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I remain unconvinced that the impressiveness of an end-positive power (fueled by external Investiture) is related to how Invested the thing is that gives you that power. Bondsmiths only come from the three largest spren, true, but then Honor was specifically interested in limiting Surgebinding.

Bondsmiths can manipulate shards. Dalinar can summon Honor's perpendicularity without stormlight. Bondsmiths are expressly stated to be beyond all other orders. Unchained Bondsmiths terrify shards. The level of power that they wield is way beyond that of normal orders.

11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

*Ishar* may be able to use his powers without Stormlight, but I think that's a Herald plus Honorblade thing, not a pure Honorblade thing. If Lirin picked up Ishar's Honorblade, I think he'd need to inhale Stormlight.

If Ishar could use his powers without stormlight, then why couldn't Nale? And anyways, even when Honor was alive the heralds couldn't use their powers without Stormlight, they just got infinite Stormlight from Honor.

[cometaryorbit]

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If Ishar could use his powers without stormlight, then why couldn't Nale? And anyways, even when Honor was alive the heralds couldn't use their powers without Stormlight, they just got infinite Stormlight from Honor.

Maybe it's some Bondsmith Connection or Spiritual Realm thing making Ishar's powers work like they did pre Splintering of Honor (time is less relevant in the Spiritual).

And I totally agree that Bondsmiths are crazy powerful. But I don't think that's all Investiture in the Bondsmith Radiant or Ishar's Honorblade.

Although, I do think Bondsmiths aren't necessarily using/manipulating as much Investiture as all that - nowhere near Shard levels. They're scary even to Shards because they manipulate fundamental Spiritual mechanisms that all magic, even Shards, rely on. Even a Shard needs Connection to interact with people in most ways.

[NameIess]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

Maybe it's some Bondsmith Connection or Spiritual Realm thing making Ishar's powers work like they did pre Splintering of Honor (time is less relevant in the Spiritual).

We don't see Ishar bursting alight with tons of stormlight to glow brighter than the sun before he summons Honor's perpendicularity.

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Although, I do think Bondsmiths aren't necessarily using/manipulating as much Investiture as all that - nowhere near Shard levels. They're scary even to Shards because they manipulate fundamental Spiritual mechanisms that all magic, even Shards, rely on. Even a Shard needs Connection to interact with people in most ways.

Shards fear Bondsmiths because they can manipulate connections as well as (or maybe even better than) shards can, but have no restrictions on that power.

If Bondsmiths could be made from normal power spren, then why are there only three Bondsmith spren? Why didn't Bondsmith squires have power?

[cometaryorbit]

24 minutes ago, Nameless said:

We don't see Ishar bursting alight with tons of stormlight to glow brighter than the sun before he summons Honor's perpendicularity.

Shards fear Bondsmiths because they can manipulate connections as well as (or maybe even better than) shards can, but have no restrictions on that power.

If Bondsmiths could be made from normal power spren, then why are there only three Bondsmith spren? Why didn't Bondsmith squires have power?

I'm not convinced that a Herald using the direct Investiture draw from Honor to power a Surge would necessarily glow - the Herald might not be "holding" the Investiture in the way a regular Radiant holds Stormlight. It might be more like Allomancy, the power going straight through from the Spiritual to the effect.

Bondsmiths are unrestricted by Intent, yeah.

I'm not arguing that any random spren can make a Bondsmith, clearly they can't. The system of (KR-style) Surgebinding requires specific types of spren for specific Surge pairs/Orders.

But I do think that if you understood medallions/fabrials/magitech at a really high level, a device to give you Bondsmith powers wouldn't necessarily contain more Investiture than one to give you any other Order's powers. (Though using the Surges at extreme levels - Binder of Gods stuff vs speaking languages or fixing statues- would likely need more Investiture as 'fuel' than anything a Windrunner or Stoneward could do.)

Also, we don't know what the upper end of Duralumin Feruchemy/Compounding can do. All we've seen is speaking languages, which is also a Bondsmith power, but I think there's more to it.

Edited March 9, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not convinced that a Herald using the direct Investiture draw from Honor to power a Surge would necessarily glow - the Herald might not be "holding" the Investiture in the way a regular Radiant holds Stormlight. It might be more like Allomancy, the power going straight through from the Spiritual to the effect.

If that were the case, then where did all the stories of heralds glowing like the sun come from?

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But I do think that if you understood medallions/fabrials/magitech at a really high level, a device to give you Bondsmith powers wouldn't necessarily contain more Investiture than one to give you any other Order's powers. (Though using the Surges at extreme levels - Binder of Gods stuff vs speaking languages or fixing statues- would likely need more Investiture as 'fuel' than anything a Windrunner or Stoneward could do.)

Doing extreme Bondsmith stuff would take tons of investiture? Extreme Bondsmith stuff like... stealing the Stormfather's bond to Dalinar and manipulating Odium's connections? Cause Ishar could do that.

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Bondsmiths have the power of gods. If the powers of a Bondsmith could be granted by a normal-power spren, then there'd be hundreds of bondsmiths and Roshar would be Ashyn 2.0. And Ishar can use his powers without stormlight. If he needed stormlight to use them, he'd never be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity anywhere besides a highstorm.

I think that's a Perpendicularity only thing, as Dalinar can do that without Stormlight but he needs it for his other surges.

[cometaryorbit]

30 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If that were the case, then where did all the stories of heralds glowing like the sun come from?

Doing extreme Bondsmith stuff would take tons of investiture? Extreme Bondsmith stuff like... stealing the Stormfather's bond to Dalinar and manipulating Odium's connections? Cause Ishar could do that.

 

Even if my ideas are right, they'd definitely still glow when holding Light/Investiture for physical enhancement, healing, etc. But if they just go from "not holding any Light" to "using Investiture direct from Honor to power Surge X" they might not go through a stage where the Investiture is held within the Herald - just as TLR or Marasi using the Bands don't glow. The power goes straight from the Shard or metalmind to the effect, and isn't ever held as Light within the person.

Oh Ishar was using tons of power, sure, but if he can still draw from (what was once) Honor...

Edited March 9, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Even if my ideas are right, they'd definitely still glow when holding Light/Investiture for physical enhancement, healing, etc. But if they just go from "not holding any Light" to "using Investiture direct from Honor to power Surge X" they might not go through a stage where the Investiture is held within the Herald - just as TLR or Marasi using the Bands don't glow. The power goes straight from the Shard or metalmind to the effect, and isn't ever held as Light within the person.

Marasi leaked mists, and allomancers don't normally glow.

23 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Oh Ishar was using tons of power, sure, but if he can still draw from (what was once) Honor...

I highly doubt that he can still draw power from Honor, and if he can, he had to have reforged that connection without access to Honor's power.

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Marasi leaked mists, and allomancers don't normally glow.

I highly doubt that he can still draw power from Honor, and if he can, he had to have reforged that connection without access to Honor's power.

My argument is that Allomancers don't glow, or have other obvious manifestations like BioChromatic aura, precisely because they don't really hold Investiture within themselves - it just goes straight from Preservation in the Spiritual Realm and is shaped into the effect immediately.

They also don't have "passive" benefits like Stormlight physical enhancement or Heightenings or Elantrians' boosts.

Marasi did emit mists, but I think she was still only getting the actual powers, not extra "passive" benefits.

Sure, if he reforged the Connection, that would have needed Stormlight - but who knows how much Investiture this kind of stuff actually takes.

I still tend to think that Bondsmiths aren't so much insanely powerful in the "quantity of Investiture" sense*, as they are using meta-powers that can kind of invalidate/bypass others' powers (like being Connected to the ground so that Stormlight healing heals the ground itself). A qualitative difference, not a quantitative one.

*At least originally - Dalinar post-Shattering of Honor may get access to much of Honor's power. But I think Melishi during the False Desolation, and Ishar in ROW, have the limiters on their Surges removed but don't get access to significant-fraction-of-a-Shard power.

[Valigus]

Pretty much no 4th ideal radiant besides a bondsmith and probably kaladin, but kaladin and whatever is going on with him is comparable to vin in terms of bypassing the normal scaling 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Valigus

[NameIess]

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

My argument is that Allomancers don't glow, or have other obvious manifestations like BioChromatic aura, precisely because they don't really hold Investiture within themselves - it just goes straight from Preservation in the Spiritual Realm and is shaped into the effect immediately.

They also don't have "passive" benefits like Stormlight physical enhancement or Heightenings or Elantrians' boosts.

Marasi did emit mists, but I think she was still only getting the actual powers, not extra "passive" benefits.

Sure, if he reforged the Connection, that would have needed Stormlight - but who knows how much Investiture this kind of stuff actually takes.

I still tend to think that Bondsmiths aren't so much insanely powerful in the "quantity of Investiture" sense*, as they are using meta-powers that can kind of invalidate/bypass others' powers (like being Connected to the ground so that Stormlight healing heals the ground itself). A qualitative difference, not a quantitative one.

*At least originally - Dalinar post-Shattering of Honor may get access to much of Honor's power. But I think Melishi during the False Desolation, and Ishar in ROW, have the limiters on their Surges removed but don't get access to significant-fraction-of-a-Shard power.

I think we're at a standstill in this argument. I think that making a Bondsmith should take an extremely large amount of investiture, and that they will never be copied on a large scale. They way they've been shown as special and the fact that Bondsmith squires did not get any powers despite swearing oaths is to me evidence that being a Bondsmith requires a ton of Investiture. You disagree, and I don't think we're making any progress in this argument. So let's move on, this argument was only tangentially related anyways.

Your original argument was that Atium would be fairly easy to soulcast, here's a WoB that says it wouldn't be:

Quote

Phantine

Could you soulcast atium from god-metal into god-wood?

Brandon Sanderson

Soulcasting atium would take a heap-ton of Investiture. You'd need a huge source to power that. 

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)

In addition, here's a WoB that says that making Atium with soulcasting would be possible, but it would take more power than you would get from Dalinar's perpendicularity:

Quote

Haylo_Alex

You've said before that Soulcasting can't create Atium or Lerasium which makes sense since they're made of Investiture from other Shards. But could a Soulcaster, perhaps in the proximity of Dalinar's perpendicularity, provide enough Stormlight to Soulcast something into Honor's Godmetal (Tanavastium)? What about Cultivation's metal, or an alloy of both, like Shardblade metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So, creating a God Metal is not something that's done easily in the Cosmere. HOWEVER, it is possible. You'd need a ton of Investiture, and being near Dalinar's perpendicularity is unlikely to be enough. I'd say Soulcasting, or something akin to it, has the means to do this if it could obtain the proper power charge.

Footnote: The questioner is mentioning this WoB.
General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 4, 2020)

Even accounting for inefficiency in the investiture conversion, I think these WoB's confirm that Atium is extremely invested, and even the small amount that was in TLR's bands would be nigh-impossible to soulcast.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

Pretty much no 4th ideal radiant besides a bondsmith and probably kaladin, but kaladin and whatever is going on with him is comparable to vin in terms of bypassing the normal scaling 

I mean, what can Kaladin realistically do to a Fullborn using F-steel? I know his plot armor would probably save him, but unless he gets the fullborn with a power suppressor, I really doubt he would be able to win in a straight-up fight.

[Valigus]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

 

I mean, what can Kaladin realistically do to a Fullborn using F-steel? I know his plot armor would probably save him, but unless he gets the fullborn with a power suppressor, I really doubt he would be able to win in a straight-up fight.

The thing with kaladin is he has managed to defeat a lot of enemies he really should not be able to and has a lot of abilities that we do not understand, including an ability that appears to be quite comparable to atium he displays most prominently in the due in WoR.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Valigus said:

The thing with kaladin is he has managed to defeat a lot of enemies he really should not be able to and has a lot of abilities that we do not understand, including an ability that appears to be quite comparable to atium he displays most prominently in the due in WoR.

Kaladin can't beat something he can't react to. Even if he straight up had Atium, he wouldn't be able to react to a Fullborn fast enough. I'm a huge fan of Kaladin, but there's no way for him to win in a straight up fight if the Fullborn uses their powers to the fullest.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

The thing with kaladin is he has managed to defeat a lot of enemies he really should not be able to and has a lot of abilities that we do not understand, including an ability that appears to be quite comparable to atium he displays most prominently in the due in WoR.

I have to heavily disagree with the atium comparison. Neither powerwise nor realmatically does that make sense.

[Valigus]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have to heavily disagree with the atium comparison. Neither powerwise nor realmatically does that make sense.

He actively displayed this ability in the fight in WoR where he is surrounded by the wind and claims to be able to have dodged as well with his eyes closed. Ishar later displays a similar ability, it appears to be functionally similar to atium.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Valigus said:

He actively displayed this ability in the fight in WoR where he is surrounded by the wind and claims to be able to have dodged as well with his eyes closed. Ishar later displays a similar ability, it appears to be functionally similar to atium.

Kaladin being able to fight with his eyes closed is not Atium. At most it'll be a spider-sense kind of thing that comes from being able to sense the wind around him. Ishar has 7,000 years of combat experience and an enhanced body. And let me repeat myself: even if Kaladin had Atium, he would not be able to beat a Fullborn. Fullborn have too many powers, and their F-steel is simply too powerful for any normal person to beat. Marasi literally went faster than the speed of sound.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nameless

[Valigus]

Just now, Nameless said:

Kaladin being able to fight with his eyes closed is not Atium. At most it'll be a spider-sense kind of thing that comes from being able to sense the wind around him. Ishar has 7,000 years of combat experience and an enhanced body. And let me repeat myself even if Kaladin had Atium, he would not be able to beat a Fullborn. Fullborn have too many powers, and their F-steel is simply too powerful for any normal person to beat. Marasi literally went faster than the speed of sound.

But my point is kaladin is not a normal person, I agree normally he cannot but we don’t know the extent of whatever being the “son of tanavast” does and he also has power armor on top of superhuman combat feats, it is entirely possible that the full extent of his weird powers could allow him to win is my point.

[NameIess]

Just now, Valigus said:

But my point is kaladin is not a normal person, I agree normally he cannot but we don’t know the extent of whatever being the “son of tanavast” does and he also has power armor on top of superhuman combat feats, it is entirely possible that the full extent of his weird powers could allow him to win is my point.

No. As Kaladin currently is, he would have zero chance of winning. We can't give Kaladin powers that he might have in the future without even having an inkling as to what those powers are.

[Valigus]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

No. As Kaladin currently is, he would have zero chance of winning. We can't give Kaladin powers that he might have in the future without even having an inkling as to what those powers are.

That’s fair, my point isn’t that he can win but that we need to be aware that future develops with kaladin specifically could change the outcome of this fight.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Valigus