Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[cometaryorbit]

21 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

That sounds more like any Radiant holding Stormlight to me. Too much magic in too flawed a container.

Probably so.

Also, the Bands - at the tapping rate Wax and Marasi use - seem way more powerful than even what TLR demonstrated. TLR moved far faster than Vin with flared pewter, but he doesn't cause a sonic boom like Marasi, and she's able to keep track of his movement.

If TLR used his powers at that level, he'd probably have emitted mist too - but I'm not sure he could get to that power level without Nicrosil Compounding, which he probably didn't have access to (no nicrosil in Era 1). Elend used duralumin as a Lerasium Mistborn, and I don't think he emitted mist when he did so.

I think the fact that Radiants "leak" Investiture normally, while the only times we see it on Scadrial are the Bands, dead Shard-vessels (Ati and Vin right before Sazed takes the power), and maybe Vin right during her taking up Preservation, is because Scadrial is relatively low-Investiture among major Shardworlds, whereas Roshar is very high Investiture.

(The basic healing effect of holding Stormlight is about as good as a Gold Ferring with lots of healing stored up, and that's basically a side effect on Roshar, not related to the actual Surges.)

[Pathfinder]

So just a few things:

1. Assuming "generic" full born that has metal minds and metals to burn 

2. Metalminds are not as invested as shardblades and shardplate (WoB)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299

3. A full metal mind can be soulcast by someone using a fabrial (WoB)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681

4. Shardplate can be soulcasted and destroyed (WoB)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6254

5. Compounding works by storing in a metal, turning it into a metal mind. You then burn the metal mind getting out more investiture that you can then store into more metal minds. That does not change the nature of the metal mind itself. It is acting as a key to the power. So the metal mind itself is no more invested than the amount that is stored in it and metalminds have a limit to how much can be stored inside it.

 

So, a soulcaster can soulcast a fullborn's metalminds. Nothing about a fullborn changes how invested a metal mind is. A metal mind is a metal mind. Just wanted to clarify that point. Not coming in to argue who would win or what. Just and only on the function. 

 

 

 

Edit: two more thoughts:

 

1. The Lord Ruler's metal minds are no different than any other. Atium as a godmetal would be problematic to soulcast, but the only power that bestows to TLR is age. All the other metals could be soulcast to wood without issue. 

 

2. The Bands of Mourning, I could see the nicrosil possibly being problematic to soulcast but not all the other metals. Those could all be turned to wood. The only power the user would be left with is the potential to tap and the potential to burn but without anything to tap or anything to burn, the user would be "normal". The reason for this is two fold

         a. The metals cannot be "mixed" when forged into the spear head, otherwise the metals would cease to be individual metals and therefore could not be used. For instance you have to have steel still be steel otherwise it could not be stored in nor burned.

         b. The metals further cannot be "hidden" because they must be able to be touched to tap.

 

So each striation of metal on the spear head is still only that metal, thereby is a normal metalmind of that metal and still able to be soulcasted to wood.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Pathfinder

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/26/2022 at 10:35 PM, Pathfinder said:

3. A full metal mind can be soulcast by someone using a fabrial (WoB)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681

 

Huh. Well that is pretty definitive, even a normal Rosharan Soulcaster could do it. So yeah Feruchemists/Fullborn could potentially be vulnerable to someone capable of ranged Soulcasting like Jasnah.

[Duxredux]

I'm probably late to the party, but I read the other 7 pages and have my 2 cents.

What Marasi did with the Bands of Mourning is weird, and I don't know if that weirdness is unique to them or if it's something a Fullborn could do with preparation and separate metalminds. If Marasi really did tap everything and was using 16 Feruchemical abilities simultaneously, then the effect of the whole seems to be different than the sum of the parts, since it didn't do what I would expect from the component powers. We didn't see her become immensely muscular, heavy enough to crush stone, incredibly hot, or experience effects of hyperventilation. We didn't see her senses do whacky disorienting things, other than the fact that somehow she could see the vacuum caused by waving her hand, and I'm not sure what that even means in terms of visual acuity. I don't think those attributes were empty either, since at least senses and strength are totally things that Kelsier would have made sure to keep charged if he kept speed.

Then there's Wax's conversation with Harmony. I don't know what that space really was (Cognitive realm? Spiritual realm?), and if Harmony was letting him see stuff that you couldn't otherwise, which we know by the representation of Trell, but Wax could see a bright light from whatever Marasi was doing from space. The discussion has had quite a bit of stuff with jumping in and out of the Cognitive realm, but I don't really know if/how Shadesmar or the Scadrian Cognitive realm would be affected by a Fullborn or user of the Bands of Mourning in the height of using their power, because I suspect it wouldn't be what we currently have on our tables.

This probably doesn't actually help the conversation, but I feel like we've only gotten a glimpses of what a Fullborn, 4th Ideal Radiant, or Bondsmith could do, and that Brandon probably kept some of the coolest stuff off the table for later books. With what we know now, it might come down to a level of preparation. If the Fullborn is someone that can mass produce the Bands of Mourning... if the Bondsmith can hack the system and steal bonds from other orders and gain access to multiple Radiant Order powers or build their own army of Radiants without constraints... there's huge ways this could go either way. Do they care about collateral damage, or is blowing up a planet okay? I don't know if we know enough to say conclusively, except it would end up being whatever Brandon thought was cool.

In the end, I agree with what a lot of people have said. In the immortal words of Wayne, "you can beat anybody, so long as you don't let them fight back properly".

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

What Marasi did with the Bands of Mourning is weird, and I don't know if that weirdness is unique to them or if it's something a Fullborn could do with preparation and separate metalminds. If Marasi really did tap everything and was using 16 Feruchemical abilities simultaneously, then the effect of the whole seems to be different than the sum of the parts, since it didn't do what I would expect from the component powers. We didn't see her become immensely muscular, heavy enough to crush stone, incredibly hot, or experience effects of hyperventilation. We didn't see her senses do whacky disorienting things, other than the fact that somehow she could see the vacuum caused by waving her hand, and I'm not sure what that even means in terms of visual acuity. I don't think those attributes were empty either, since at least senses and strength are totally things that Kelsier would have made sure to keep charged if he kept speed.

It's possible she just didn't remark on the changes besides the speed. The F-pewter could be explained by whoever filled the metalminds storing the extra strength from A-pewter (which doesn't cause increased muscle mass).

10 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Then there's Wax's conversation with Harmony. I don't know what that space really was (Cognitive realm? Spiritual realm?), and if Harmony was letting him see stuff that you couldn't otherwise, which we know by the representation of Trell, but Wax could see a bright light from whatever Marasi was doing from space. The discussion has had quite a bit of stuff with jumping in and out of the Cognitive realm, but I don't really know if/how Shadesmar or the Scadrian Cognitive realm would be affected by a Fullborn or user of the Bands of Mourning in the height of using their power, because I suspect it wouldn't be what we currently have on our tables.

It was the Cognitive realm. And it's been established that invested people in the physical realm glow in the cognitive realm.

12 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

This probably doesn't actually help the conversation, but I feel like we've only gotten a glimpses of what a Fullborn, 4th Ideal Radiant, or Bondsmith could do, and that Brandon probably kept some of the coolest stuff off the table for later books. With what we know now, it might come down to a level of preparation. If the Fullborn is someone that can mass produce the Bands of Mourning... if the Bondsmith can hack the system and steal bonds from other orders and gain access to multiple Radiant Order powers or build their own army of Radiants without constraints... there's huge ways this could go either way. Do they care about collateral damage, or is blowing up a planet okay? I don't know if we know enough to say conclusively, except it would end up being whatever Brandon thought was cool.

Yeah. Unless there's something about Fullborn that we don't know, they should be able to mass produce Bands of Mourning. And Bondsmiths can steal bonds, and could probably make unoathed fifth ideal power leve radiants. Ishar was the one who bound surgebinding to oaths in the first place, after all.

26 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

In the end, I agree with what a lot of people have said. In the immortal words of Wayne, "you can beat anybody, so long as you don't let them fight back properly".

I'll save that quote for the post-TLM thread.

[StanLemon]

On 2/26/2022 at 9:35 PM, Pathfinder said:

3. A full metal mind can be soulcast by someone using a fabrial (WoB)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681

4. Shardplate can be soulcasted and destroyed (WoB)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6254

One thing to keep in mind, Brandon says lots of things are technically possible but that doesn't mean they are practical or feasible.

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

One thing to keep in mind, Brandon says lots of things are technically possible but that doesn't mean they are practical or feasible.

True in many cases, but the one on Soulcasting a metalmind specifically says that a regular Rosharan soulcaster can do that.

Which really isn't surprising, since a metalmind is probably less Invested than a human soul* and we've seen Jasnah soulcast humans.

*Steelpushing on metalminds is noticeably harder (per Wax), but possible. Wax is good, with resonance and maybe a bit of savant stuff going on, but he's also Era 2 Misting strength. Vin (who was unusually strong  for an Era 1 Mistborn, though not full lerasium Mistborn strength) couldn't even see lines to metals inside the body (without burning mists).

 

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

True in many cases, but the one on Soulcasting a metalmind specifically says that a regular Rosharan soulcaster can do that.

Which really isn't surprising, since a metalmind is probably less Invested than a human soul* and we've seen Jasnah soulcast humans.

*Steelpushing on metalminds is noticeably harder (per Wax), but possible. Wax is good, with resonance and maybe a bit of savant stuff going on, but he's also Era 2 Misting strength. Vin (who was unusually strong  for an Era 1 Mistborn, though not full lerasium Mistborn strength) couldn't even see lines to metals inside the body (without burning mists).

 

I'd say that "filled" doesn't necessarily mean "completely full". Not that a radiant couldn't soulcast a full metalmind, it could just be harder to do so.

[cometaryorbit]

Just now, Nameless said:

I'd say that "filled" doesn't necessarily mean "completely full".

Quite possible, I think we rarely see metalminds that are actually 100% full, but it probably does mean 'at the usual level of fullness at which Feruchemists carry them around'.

TLR's atiumminds are specifically fairly small, so I do think they should totally be Soulcastable (Depending on the time that would take, of course, TLR might be able to react with compounded speed. OTOH, a Stormlight filled Radiant won't be killed with one hit even with F-Pewter strength... more and more, I'm thinking Jasnah could actually have defeated TLR *if* she knew of his metalmind dependency.)

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

TLR's atiumminds are specifically fairly small, so I do think they should totally be Soulcastable (Depending on the time that would take, of course, TLR might be able to react with compounded speed. OTOH, a Stormlight filled Radiant won't be killed with one hit even with F-Pewter strength... more and more, I'm thinking Jasnah could actually have defeated TLR *if* she knew of his metalmind dependency.)

Atium minds are more invested than a shardblade. Atium itself is just as invested as a shardblade even without any age stored in it. And TLR would be able to kill Jasnah very quickly with F-steel and A-pewter if he didn't do the whole "monologue while slowly killing person" thing.

[cometaryorbit]

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Atium minds are more invested than a shardblade. Atium itself is just as invested as a shardblade even without any age stored in it.

I don't think we can assume that to be true, Shardblades are actual spren manifested, not sure that is quite the same as a chunk of atium 'disconnected' from Ruin.

But even if it is true, a Shardblade is still going to have way more total Investiture since it is vastly larger. A ridiculously big sword vs. a pair of thin bracelets (which may not even be 100% metalmind - Vin says in WoA they turned out to have not that much atium when they broke them up and sold them, so they might have been just beads of atium set in a bracelet of another metal).

Re: quickly killing a Radiant- I disagree that Radiants' Stormlight healing works that way. I think being full of Stormlight is going to keep you alive for at least a few seconds from basically anything that doesn't block/drain/destroy/etc Investiture (larkin, aluminum or raysium weapon,  anti-Light, etc.) ... the Stormlight has to be used up first.

Even if TLR is moving at Bands of Mourning sonic-boom speed, I don't think it would kill Jasnah before she could finish Soulcasting. (Though potentially she'd run out of Light and die of her wounds right afterward.)

Edited March 9, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think we can assume that to be true, Shardblades are actual spren manifested, not sure that is quite the same as a chunk of atium 'disconnected' from Ruin.

It's not disconnected from Ruin anymore than a spren is disconnected from Honor. It's made of Ruin's pure essence.

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But even if it is true, a Shardblade is still going to have way more total Investiture since it is vastly larger. A ridiculously big sword vs. a pair of thin bracelets (which may not even be 100% metalmind - Vin says in WoA they turned out to have not that much atium when they broke them up and sold them, so they might have been just beads of atium set in a bracelet of another metal).

It's still going to be ridiculously difficult, and TLR probably keeps his Atium minds very full. Jasnah might be able to do it with access to the infinite Stormlight from a perpendicularity, but otherwise she'd have little or no chance.

[cometaryorbit]

Atium in Era 1 is specifically disconnected from Ruin (intentionally so by Preservation, stealing a part of his power) though it is also his essence. It's basically a severed body part.

Spren and Honor are a bit different case, since Honor made some of them willingly, but then was Splintered. I would argue they are separated now (post Splintering) but weren't before. (At least for Honorspren that were willingly created by Honor... pre-Shattering Spren of Adonalsium that were kind-of 'of Honor' post Shattering, who knows.)

TLR's atium minds are so small that I just don't think they are that Invested even if they were at 100%.

Edited March 9, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[StanLemon]

The biggest problem these debates have is they assume both sides know how each other's powers work. I'd agree that an Elsecaller could theoretically beat a Fullborn if they were able to get the jump on them and knew enough about how the Metallic Arts worked. Both sides going in blind though? As long as the Fullborn isn't arrogant like TLR, the Fullborn would win

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Atium in Era 1 is specifically disconnected from Ruin (intentionally so by Preservation, stealing a part of his power) though it is also his essence. It's basically a severed body part.

The atium in era 1 is an atium-electrum alloy, not pure atium.

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The biggest problem these debates have is they assume both sides know how each other's powers work. I'd agree that an Elsecaller could theoretically beat a Fullborn if they were able to get the jump on them and knew enough about how the Metallic Arts worked. Both sides going in blind though? As long as the Fullborn isn't arrogant like TLR, the Fullborn would win

Oh yeah, with no prior knowledge (so no idea to target the metalminds) Fullborn would win.

Assuming *equal* good knowledge on both sides, though, I'm not sure that there is anything TLR could do to protect against soulcasting a metalmind (or Bondsmith connection stealing tricks???) - coating them in aluminum might block his own ability to use them.  

It also matters if the Fullborn is beyond max normal age like TLR, or not. TLR died without his metalminds- a say 40 year old Fullborn would lose whatever attribute was in that particular metalmind, but wouldn't be taken out of the fight completely, they'd still be a Mistborn plus all the remaining feruchemical attributes.

[cometaryorbit]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The atium in era 1 is an atium-electrum alloy, not pure atium.

Yeah, apparently... but it was still made from power Preservation stole/separated from Ruin and set up to accumulate in the Pits.

And that Era 1 impure/alloyed atium is what TLR was using for his metalminds. (If anything, that would probably make it less Invested and more easily Soulcast than refined/pure atium.)

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Atium in Era 1 is specifically disconnected from Ruin (intentionally so by Preservation, stealing a part of his power) though it is also his essence. It's basically a severed body part.

TLR's atium minds are so small that I just don't think they are that Invested even if they were at 100%.

Whether or not a body part is severed does not change the mass of said body part. Being disconnected from Ruin does not make Atium less invested. The Bands of Mourning were only slightly less invested than a shardblade, and they were nowhere near the size of one. I don't think size necessarily matters when godmetals are involved, unless you think spren become less invested when they are summoned as a Shardfork. Or at least size doesn't necessarily matter how we think it does.

[cometaryorbit]

Just now, Nameless said:

Whether or not a body part is severed does not change the mass of said body part. Being disconnected from Ruin does not make Atium less invested. The Bands of Mourning were only slightly less invested than a shardblade, and they were nowhere near the size of one. I don't think size necessarily matters when godmetals are involved, unless you think spren become less invested when they are summoned as a Shardfork. Or at least size doesn't necessarily matter how we think it does.

I disagree, but don't think this is provable yet.

I think that atium (as we see it in Era 1, slightly alloyed or whatever) certainly *acts* less Invested - it's Pushed and Pulled, etc. So it can probably be Soulcast - that is better at dealing with investiture interference than Pushes and Pulls, after all.

I read that WoB as "the Bands are slightly less Invested than the threshold to qualify as a Shardblade" - Shardblade isn't a single Investiture level. I don't think they are that close to a spren blade.

I think, from Brandon's E=MC^2 and thermodynamics analogies, there has to be a consistent conversion factor between Investiture and the mass of its solid form. I think that would imply a spren manifesting smaller than its full Shardblade form isn't 100% in the Physical Realm.

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I disagree, but don't think this is provable yet.

Even if it did affect the level of investiture, Spren are just as cut off from Honor as Atium was cut off from Ruin.

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

I think that atium (as we see it in Era 1, slightly alloyed or whatever) certainly *acts* less Invested - it's Pushed and Pulled, etc. So it can probably be Soulcast - that is better at dealing with investiture interference than Pushes and Pulls, after all.

That's because Brandon hadn't decided that highly invested stuff would be hard to push and pull on yet:

Quote

Chaos

Is atium Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it--

Chaos

Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle.

Brandon Sanderson

Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness.

The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I read that WoB as "the Bands are slightly less Invested than the threshold to qualify as a Shardblade" - Shardblade isn't a single Investiture level. I don't think they are that close to a spren blade.

I'd say that the threshold of being a shardblade is being as invested as a godmetal. A completely full metalmind cannot become that invested, as metal cannot normally hold enough investiture to equal something made of investiture. Nightblood is of course the exception to this, as he is so full of investiture that it leaks out of him unless he has his sheath.

11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think, from Brandon's E=MC^2 and thermodynamics analogies, there has to be a consistent conversion factor between Investiture and the mass of its solid form. I think that would imply a spren manifesting smaller than its full Shardblade form isn't 100% in the Physical Realm.

So do you think the Honorblades are just as invested as a normal Shardblade? Why is Ishar's honorblade the same size as all the others?

[Pathfinder]

1. The atium  minds would not need to be soulcasted. The only power they provide is age. Soulcast the other metal minds and the full born is powerless

2. Brandon specifically states  in another WoB that I will pull up later that Scadrials magic system is lower investiture than Roshars. So just because an average allomancer cannot see the bands with steel sight does not mean it equates to a shard blade. Brandon specifically mentions in the WoB that metal minds are less invested than shardblades

3. the bands of mourning are multiple metal minds. Each metal has to be individualistic otherwise it would cease to be its metal. So all metals except possibly nicrosil could be soulcasted without issue

4. I believe the WoB rather plainly states that a full metal mind can be soulcasted by an average soulcaster. Further Brandon stresses it would be within reason for that to work. 
 

At the end of the day, this whole concept is conjecture. People are certainly entitled to interpret as they see fit.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. The atium  minds would not need to be soulcasted. The only power they provide is age. Soulcast the other metal minds and the full born is powerless

Powerless unless they eat the Atium, at least. unless they're TLR, who couldn't eat his Atium without dying.

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

2. Brandon specifically states  in another WoB that I will pull up later that Scadrials magic system is lower investiture than Roshars. So just because an average allomancer cannot see the bands with steel sight does not mean it equates to a shard blade. Brandon specifically mentions in the WoB that metal minds are less invested than shardblades

3. the bands of mourning are multiple metal minds. Each metal has to be individualistic otherwise it would cease to be its metal. So all metals except possibly nicrosil could be soulcasted without issue

4. I believe the WoB rather plainly states that a full metal mind can be soulcasted by an average soulcaster. Further Brandon stresses it would be within reason for that to work. 

I agree that a Radiant soulcaster would be able to soulcast filled metalminds (except for atium). All I'm saying is that the question was just vague enough that Brandon may have been thinking of a metalmind that was only partially filled.

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Powerless unless they eat the Atium, at least. unless they're TLR, who couldn't eat his Atium without dying.

Sure, though trying to shove a metal armband down one’s throat might be more liable to cause choking especially when one’s goldminds and etc are now wood.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I agree that a Radiant soulcaster would be able to soulcast filled metalminds (except for atium). All I'm saying is that the question was just vague enough that Brandon may have been thinking of a metalmind that was only partially filled.

That’s been argued before by others. Personally I think it was pretty clear that the question stated “full”, but to each their own.

[NameIess]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Sure, though trying to shove a metal armband down one’s throat might be more liable to cause choking especially when one’s goldminds and etc are now wood.

Now I'm imagining Jasnah soulcasting a fullborns metalminds, then staring in horror as they choke themselves to death trying to eat them.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Even if it did affect the level of investiture, Spren are just as cut off from Honor as Atium was cut off from Ruin.

Sure...  but the Spren is a Splinter in and of itself. Atium isn't.

And I'm not saying it affects the level of Investiture exactly, so much as whether that Investiture is "active". I mean, investiture can be converted into matter or energy, but if Harmony created a block of iron out of Investiture I don't think it would be any harder to Push or Pull on or Soulcast than regular iron (all matter on Scadrial might have been created that way originally?)

I don't think a full metalmind has more mass than an empty one - the Investiture is kind of in another Realm (which is why Ruin's metal blindness didn't prevent him from changing the contents of copperminds - the Investiture isn't really within the metal, just linked/keyed to it).

So the Investiture stored using a metalmind makes it count as Invested, but the Investiture equivalent of its physical mass doesn't.

So I don't think there is a necessary relationship between the Investiture level of a completely full metalmind and the Investiture level of the same mass of godmetal. (Which is why, IMO, you can use godmetals in Feruchemy/Hemalurgy at all - they don't count as "already 100% full" since the investiture is stored in a different way).

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

So do you think the Honorblades are just as invested as a normal Shardblade?

I doubt they're exactly equal. If anything, the Honorblades are possibly less Invested - they're not sapient Splinters, and they are at least sometimes smaller.

Now the Honorblades give Surgebinding powers and a dead-blade doesn't, but that involves drawing in extra Investiture (Stormlight). And anyway that dead-blade would have given Surgebinding back when it was a live Radiant spren.