Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, CryoZenith said:

Yep. The Heralds come from Ashyn, and anyone who spent time in Ashyn knows about microorganisms for obvious reasons.

Magic worked differently on Ashyn when Heralds where there.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, they probably have microscopes, but can you even see blood types in a microscope? I don't know.

In fact, you dont even need microscope to tell apart blood types.

[NameIess]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

In fact, you dont even need microscope to tell apart blood types.

What do you need?

[CryoZenith]

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Magic worked differently on Ashyn when Heralds where there.

It'd be weird for it to have been so different that microbes weren't involved at all. But I guess it's plausible, so I'll cede here.

Quote

In fact, you dont even need microscope to tell apart blood types.

This goes back to scientific progress being a hard problem and things not necessarily being discovered in the most likely order.

Like, if we're considering real life. Blood types were discovered in the 20th century, *way* after microscopes were invented. Even though, yes, their discovery doesn't require microscopes. You can do the ABO test pretty easily without much tech.

[Frustration]

56 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

4 standard (A, B, AB, 0) + Rh factor (+/-) are the only ones that mainly matters. But with standard your fasion, you just cling to details, but miss the point of example.

If your example is flawed I'm going to point it out.

 

Also relevant WoB's

Spoiler

ccstat

When Jasnah talks about soulcasting the 8 different types of blood, is she referring to transfusion typing within humans (e.g. ABO+/- on Earth) or to different kinds of blood between species (e.g. human vs axehound vs greatshell vs Aimian, etc)?

Brandon Sanderson

Both, though people on Roshar haven't hit upon the levels of complexity in blood types that we know.

KingSloth

Did these arise naturally on Roshar, or did Honor/Cultivation get lazy on templating humanity and copying existing?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (Sorry.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 31, 2015)

 

[cometaryorbit]

13 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

This goes back to scientific progress being a hard problem and things not necessarily being discovered in the most likely order.

Like, if we're considering real life. Blood types were discovered in the 20th century, *way* after microscopes were invented. Even though, yes, their discovery doesn't require microscopes. You can do the ABO test pretty easily without much tech.

Yeah, there's a ton of this stuff in history of science/technology.

Mendel's experiments on genetics could have been done as early as selective breeding of plants started, thousands of years ago -- why did that have to wait until the 19th century? And even after they were done, they were forgotten for several decades until rediscovered independently...

A simple form of steam engine was built in the first century AD (it's described in a book by Heron of Alexandria), but it was never developed into anything beyond a curiosity.

Gunpowder was discovered by accident, 700+ years before chemistry had the ability to figure out explosives systematically. If not for that "out of order" discovery, history would be completely and utterly different (imagine if guns weren't invented until the late 18th century - when the first non-gunpowder explosive was discovered).

The problem the Rosharans will have is lack of theoretical basis. They can use magic to bypass the lack of tech (e.g. Soulcasting metals hard to make by conventional means) but there are a lot of things that they won't even think of trying, since they don't have the base knowledge to suggest that they are possible.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

The problem the Rosharans will have is lack of theoretical basis. They can use magic to bypass the lack of tech (e.g. Soulcasting metals hard to make by conventional means) but there are a lot of things that they won't even think of trying, since they don't have the base knowledge to suggest that they are possible.

Well that could also be a blessing as they will try things we never would think of.

[CryoZenith]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The problem the Rosharans will have is lack of theoretical basis. They can use magic to bypass the lack of tech (e.g. Soulcasting metals hard to make by conventional means) but there are a lot of things that they won't even think of trying, since they don't have the base knowledge to suggest that they are possible.

As I said, I think this is a problem that fixes itself over time (and by "over time" I mean in the mid term, not in the long term). Because eventually more spren will bond people (potentially even lots of them if the BAM plotline is resolved and they fix deadeye-ism) and more Elsecallers will pop up, and more tech-trade with worldhoppers will happen.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:01 AM, CryoZenith said:

As I said, I think this is a problem that fixes itself over time (and by "over time" I mean in the mid term, not in the long term). Because eventually more spren will bond people (potentially even lots of them if the BAM plotline is resolved and they fix deadeye-ism) and more Elsecallers will pop up, and more tech-trade with worldhoppers will happen.

I think spren know less about the Physical world than humans, so I don't think they'll help in terms of science/mundane tech (Syl talks about natural laws not really being a thing, so if anything, too much interaction with spren could actually stifle the development of physical science.

Worldhoppers, yeah, in the long term... otoh its not just knowledge, it's infrastructure, and Roshar's weird geology (lack of some natural resources) + ability to "cheat" with Soulcasting removing motivation to build some of those early but necessary steps... eh, I don't think Roshar is a good prospect for conventional tech.

[CryoZenith]

I'm not saying the spren will help by being scientists. I'm saying the spren will help by enabling more people to use Transportation, which will expose them to worldhoppers from more scientifically developed planets, which will accelerate Roshar's scientific development through trade.

I do agree that there are infrastructural hurdles, but soulcasting helps rather than hurts there. For example, on Roshar you can't mine uranium (because there aren't uranium mines) but once an Elsecaller learns from a Taldain darksider about nuclear power plants and uranium, he will be able to soulcast a bunch of uranium and "get there" anyway.

[Frustration]

Ok, a possible Idea that may or may not work.

Step 1: Have an Elsecaller make several boulders of obsidean, SiO2 when pure, and thus free of all metals.

Step 2: Have a Windrunner and Bondsmith work together, to lash the obsidean at the fullborn, so that it will continuously accelerate towards them.

Step 3: Link the lashing to the windrunner so that it can draw on their stormlight.

Step 4: retreat to the CR, and feed windrunners stormlight to maintain the lashings on the obsidean

Step 5: repeat steps 1-4 until the Fullborn dies.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Frustration

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:38 AM, CryoZenith said:

I'm not saying the spren will help by being scientists. I'm saying the spren will help by enabling more people to use Transportation, which will expose them to worldhoppers from more scientifically developed planets, which will accelerate Roshar's scientific development through trade.

Ah, ok. That makes more sense.

I am still not totally sure that will work that way, though, depending on how Roshar's intellectual climate evolves. The question is whether Roshar's scholarly community will have the tools to understand and use bits of advanced knowledge they might get from worldhoppers.

Once we get to full-on large-scale interplanetary trade, with "offshoring" of whole industries to other planets, that would be different, but even Sixth of the Dusk era seems to be pretty limited information flow.

[NameIess]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Ok, a possible Idea that may or may not work.

Step 1: Have an Elsecaller make several boulders of obsidean, SiO2 when pure, and thus free of all metals.

Step 2: Have a Windrunner and Bondsmith work together, to lash the obsidean at the fullborn, so that it will continuously accelerate towards them.

Step 3: Link the lashing to the windrunner so that it can draw on their stormlight.

Step 4: retreat to the CR, and feed windrunners stormlight to maintain the lashings on the obsidean

Step 5: repeat steps 1-4 until the Fullborn dies.

It might work. It does take a bondsmith, and puts them at risk, and it would probably take a very long time, but it is a way that would work eventually. There are probably far less clunky methods of killing a fullborn if you have a bondsmith, like cutting off their connection to their metalminds or something like that.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

It might work. It does take a bondsmith, and puts them at risk, and it would probably take a very long time, but it is a way that would work eventually. There are probably far less clunky methods of killing a fullborn if you have a bondsmith, like cutting off their connection to their metalminds or something like that.

That's true but I feel most of theose methods fall under the same category as jumping them while they are asleep.

Could you use Connection to separate them from their Metalminds? Or would that be an Identity thing?

Edited February 17, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Could you use Connection to separate them from their Metalminds? Or would that be an Identity thing?

Touching a metalmind is required to use it. If you remove the spiritual connection of touching it, they can't use it anymore.

[CryoZenith]

On 17.02.2022 at 6:51 PM, Nameless said:

 like cutting off their connection to their metalminds

I've been skeptical all this time, but I'm willing to admit when I am wrong, and this specific argument convinced me. Yes, a radiant would win against a fullborn (at least if the radiant is a bondsmith). I kept thinking about radiant powers in terms of normal surges and superhealing but completely forgot about spiritual adhesion. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by CryoZenith

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, CryoZenith said:

I've been skeptical all this time, but I'm willing to admit when I am wrong, and this specific argument convinced me. Yes, a radiant would win against a fullborn (at least if the radiant is a bondsmith). I kept thinking about radiant powers in terms of normal surges and superhealing but completely forgot about spiritual adhesion. 

Yeah, bondsmith is the only order that could beat a fullborn semi-consistently.

[+Bzhydack]

But I need to remind you that Fullborn also have Connection Manipulation Powers in some degree. Im almost sure he should be able to restore Connection to his metalminds pretty quicly. And what if he Connects himself to the Spren stronger than Radinat is Connected? Can he became Radiant himself?

[Frustration]

20 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But I need to remind you that Fullborn also have Connection Manipulation Powers in some degree. Im almost sure he should be able to restore Connection to his metalminds pretty quicly. And what if he Connects himself to the Spren stronger than Radinat is Connected? Can he became Radiant himself?

Fullborn cannot make Connection only manipuate theirs.

They can't form a bond with the spren as the only connections to the spren they would have is a relationship. Likewise restoring connection to something would only be possible if they had stored that connection beforehand.

[+Bzhydack]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Fullborn cannot make Connection only manipuate theirs.

They can't form a bond with the spren as the only connections to the spren they would have is a relationship. Likewise restoring connection to something would only be possible if they had stored that connection beforehand.

Cannot?

You know, talking in language of land youve never been before, or being friend with Kolloss youve (also) never meet before looks to me exactly how "making Connections" should look like. And this is just normal Connector Ferring stuff, not even compounder.

Connection work both ways, you know.

BTW, Connector is not good name for this awsome power.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

You know, talking in language of land youve never been before,

Which is blank connection that all life has

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

or being friend with Kolloss youve (also) never meet before looks to me exactly how "making Connections" should look like. And this is just normal Connector Ferring stuff, not even compounder.

How would a feruchemy make new things, you store what you have and then make it stronger, so the Connecter was simply strengthening already existing connections that he had, not making new ones.

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Connection work both ways, you know.

Yes, but if my friend has a connection to a book, I cannot store that connection with feruchemy, nor can I connect him to a different book.

[NameIess]

A Fullborn trying to manipulate connections to beat a Bondsmith would be like trying to drown a shark with water. And I don't think it would be easy to connect yourself to a spren more strongly than it's radiant. Their souls are merged together. I don't think that will be easy to replicate, especially if the spren didn't want you to. And since you haven't sworn oaths, I don't think you could do it anyways. Connection is different from a Nahel bond, I think.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Nameless

[+Bzhydack]

58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Which is blank connection that all life has

There is no such thing as blank Connection, Connection is always to something. And work both ways.

59 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How would a feruchemy make new things, you store what you have and then make it stronger, so the Connecter was simply strengthening already existing connections that he had, not making new ones.

Everyone is making new Connections ;-) Literally in moment you see something, you are making Connection to this thing. No matter how small it is. So in this way, yes, he can - strenghten Connection from negligible to relevant. Or even super-powerfull.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but if my friend has a connection to a book, I cannot store that connection with feruchemy, nor can I connect him to a different book.

We were talking about Connection between Fullborn and his metalminds. And every Connection witch is involving Fullborn himself, he can manipulate.

45 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Connection is different from a Nahel bond, I think.

So why Ishar was able to steal it, then? He can "only" manipulate Connections.

And yes, I also think that Nahel Bond is more Connection-Identity merged spiritual thing, but still Connection is very important part of it.

49 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A Fullborn trying to manipulate connections to beat a Bondsmith would be like trying to drown a shark with water.

Is not about attacking Bondsmith with Connection manipulation, is more about defending himself. And FUllborn should be able to negate all wierd Connection stuff what Bondsmith can throw at him, by remaking wanted or cuting unwanted Connections.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

And I don't think it would be easy to connect yourself to a spren more strongly than it's radiant. Their souls are merged together. I don't think that will be easy to replicate, especially if the spren didn't want you to. And since you haven't sworn oaths, I don't think you could do it anyways.

Im not talking it would be easy. But I think it is possible, especially for Compounder. If Spren would find himself suddenly very VERY closly Connected to Fullborn maybe he could simply speedrun throu Oaths and became 5th level Radiant himself. As we know, you dont need to know Oaths before swearing them. Also, if you can become Shard Vessel by simply Connecting to the Shard, why not Radiant?

[NameIess]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

So why Ishar was able to steal it, then? He can "only" manipulate Connections.

And yes, I also think that Nahel Bond is more Connection-Identity merged spiritual thing, but still Connection is very important part of it.

A Nahel bond is more than blank connection. A spren can be friends with someone without beginning to form a Nahel bond with them, and you can't force a spren into a bond against their will unless you have complete mastery over connection like Ishar. F-duraluminum affects how fast you can form connections, it doesn't let you break existing ones.

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Is not about attacking Bondsmith with Connection manipulation, is more about defending himself. And FUllborn should be able to negate all wierd Connection stuff what Bondsmith can throw at him, by remaking wanted or cuting unwanted Connections.

You can't do anything permanent with F-duraluminum, just temporarily alleviate the effects. And I don't think it makes sense for any duraluminum compounder to be able to easily counter someone with planet-destroying power that makes Shards afraid.

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Im not talking it would be easy. But I think it is possible, especially for Compounder. If Spren would find himself suddenly very VERY closly Connected to Fullborn maybe he could simply speedrun throu Oaths and became 5th level Radiant himself. As we know, you dont need to know Oaths before swearing them. Also, if you can become Shard Vessel by simply Connecting to the Shard, why not Radiant?

The Stormfather or some other bondsmith spren would have to accept the oaths, the spren would have to accept the bond, and you can't say the ideals until you're ready for them. It's not dependent on connection to the spren. Either that, or when Ishar bound the radiants to oaths he implemented some sort of system that ties oath level to spren connection.

And you can't steal a shard by being more connected, you can only make yourself a better candidate for a shard with no vessel.

[+Bzhydack]

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

F-duraluminum affects how fast you can form connections, it doesn't let you break existing ones.

Disagree. This is exactly how storing Connections works - just store 100% of Connection and you dont have it.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You can't do anything permanent with F-duraluminum, just temporarily alleviate the effects. And I don't think it makes sense for any duraluminum compounder to be able to easily counter someone with planet-destroying power that makes Shards afraid.

Dont need to be permanent. Just long enough until Bonsmith would be dead.

It make sense for me. From reader point of view, it should be something able to counter Bondsmith powers. And Duralumin Compounder seems to be literally designed to do exactly this.

19 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A Nahel bond is more than blank connection.

There is no such thing as "Blank Connection". Never.

21 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Stormfather or some other bondsmith spren would have to accept the oaths, the spren would have to accept the bond, and you can't say the ideals until you're ready for them. It's not dependent on connection to the spren. Either that, or when Ishar bound the radiants to oaths he implemented some sort of system that ties oath level to spren connection.

Question is, what is cause, and what effect? And can be cause and effect tricked, as sometimes happeend with humans? Oaths are supose to reflect progress and caused with stronger Bond, but can we switch cause and effect and force swearing Oaths by tricking "system" with very strong Bond to Spren?

This is very interesting question...

[Frustration]

51 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

There is no such thing as blank Connection, Connection is always to something. And work both ways.

That's litterally what the southerners call it.

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Disagree. This is exactly how storing Connections works - just store 100% of Connection and you dont have it.

Feruchemy has a limit on how much you can store, which is less than 100%

Spoiler

Thoughtful Spurts

If there's really no upper limit to Feruchemy for practical reasons* , why didn't Sazed just fill steel at ridiculous levels for a few minutes in [Well of Ascension], and then go back to running instead of leaving his steelminds there? Say, being some 100,000 times slower than he would normally be for about a minute. Meaning that a Feruchemist should be able to fill a given metalmind in very short periods of time if you fill at a high enough rate.

*(yes, you have the limit of how much you can store in a given metalmind and for how many metalminds you can carry on your person, but those are probably too high to really be taken into account in more "normal" circumstances)

Brandon Sanderson

The low end is bounded. You can pull out tons--but in filling, you can only go so far. I didn't ever explicitly talk about this in the series, but the implications are there. Not all have the same bounds, but in your example, the body just can't slow beyond a certain point. Think of it this way--you can only fill a weight metalmind with as much weight as you have to give. So you can become very, very light--but you only add to a time for doubling your weight. You can't make yourself 100,000 times slower and gain 100,000 times multiplication. You can give up all of your normal speed, and so when you tap that speed out you are at 200% for an equal period. (And that's a theoretical maximum; realistically, you can only go to down around 75% slower or the like.)

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

It make sense for me. From reader point of view, it should be something able to counter Bondsmith powers. And Duralumin Compounder seems to be literally designed to do exactly this.

Brandon hasn't done anything to balance the systems against each other and considers Roshar to be stronger.

Spoiler

Questioner

What’s the hardest power you've created to find a balance for?

Brandon Sanderson

Hardest power to create a balance for? I'd say first is Wheel of Time, but I didn't create that... Hardest to balance… They've all been fairly easy so far. My guess is that it will end up being Stormlight just because I am doing so many books in that world, and I'm not resetting characters as much as I am in Mistborn, that I'm going to have to be careful about power creep... That's an excellent question.

Firefight Atlanta signing (Jan. 24, 2015)

Questioner

Just in the cosmere alone, are there any--Do you believe there are any specific magic systems that are stronger than the others, or have an advantage? Or do they kind of even out?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, do-- Yeah. Do any of the magics have advantages or stronger-- Definitely some are stronger than others. Definitely. There is no attempt made on my part to power balance between magic systems and things. Power balancing is for RPGs where it's very important, it's not for storytelling.

A lot of people like to ask the "Who would win, X or Y?" sort of thing, and I don't get into a lot of that, I usually say, "Well, what's the situation?" I'm not big on the-- I will, if people clash, or if different powers clash, I will write the situation, but it's so conditional. So I have a hard time with these cage match things that people really like to do and things like that, because they're fun, but as an author I'm like, "I can come up with a dozen situations where either one of them wins or someone else does". Right? That's what you do, in writing. You say, what is the context of this?

But that's a tangent from your question, which is the powers are not equal. The Shards were generally equal. Some have given up more power than others.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

8 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

There is no such thing as "Blank Connection". Never.

Then why does Allik refer to it as such?