Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

We don't even know that Marasi was making mist when she first started moving.

No we do not.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

That comparison is wrong on so many levels. We've never seen someone trying to heat up a shardblade. For all we know, it could heat up normally, but simply not melt. We don't know if shardblade mist has the same specific heat. And we don't know that Preservation's mist has the same specific heat as Shardblade mist. Seriously, what you're saying is like saying "Since titanium is really hard to melt, Helium must be really hard to heat up." Without knowing the specific heat of titatnium. Completely different forms, completely different elements, and we don't even know the specific heat of sharblades. You can't compare them like that.

I think we can excpect a high degree of similarity between Highly invested substance #1 and Highly invested substance #2.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

I think we can excpect a high degree of similarity between Highly invested substance #1 and Highly invested substance #2.

No, we can't. And we don't even know the properties of highly invested substance #1 in the first place.

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No, we can't. And we don't even know the properties of highly invested substance #1 in the first place.

Yeah that's fair.

[CryoZenith]

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the temperature of the fluid you're moving through negligible for the thermal effects of drag? I mean, sure, you are converting kinetic energy into heat through friction, and that heat will dissipate in the mist until it reaches thermal equilibrium, so the mist being colder will mean you heat up less and cool down faster, but that entire equilibration takes minutes, you're still spending enough time at a temperature that human skin cannot survive.

So either Marasi was tapping something in addition to f-steel, or Brandon used imprecise language and f-steel *does* confer some friction resistance, just not a ton. Both of those hypotheses seem more reasonable than the environment actually mattering.

Edited February 9, 2022 by CryoZenith

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

So either Marasi was tapping something in addition to f-steel

She tapped "everything". F-gold at these ridiculous levels of power is basically total invulnerability (barring investiture leeching, anti-investiture, etc.)

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

I don't debate that. However, Marasi didn't reach that speed, because 1. No fire, and 2. She didn't feel intense pain as her body ripped itself apart and then healed instantly.

It does describe what sounds like a sonic boom, but supersonic speeds aren't enough to cause any visible fire or anything. She wasn't moving at orbital-reentry speeds, granted.

I think at this ridiculous level of tapping F-gold, she wouldn't feel any pain because the healing would happen so fast there would be no time to perceive the damage.

8 hours ago, Nameless said:

Every example we see points to F-steel's speed limit being way too high for anyone to react to, and no WoB contradicts that. Just because some of the examples are a bit weird doesn't mean we should ignore them just because we think F-steel would be too powerful otherwise.

Except that Mistborn/Lurchers/Coinshots can react to coin attacks, and a coin would have to be moving at really high speeds to be a reliably effective weapon. (We don't see sonic booms mentioned, so probably subsonic, but it can't be that much less).

8 hours ago, Nameless said:

They can't react to bullets, so far as I know.

I am going to have to look for references to this in Era 2, I kind of thought there were mentions going both ways on this.

Even if they can't, that would put the limit they can react to as faster than coins but less than 1910-era firearms... probably somewhere around the speed of sound.

Really ridiculous speed like what Marasi used with the Bands can do it, but think these arguments overstate the advantage of more sane levels of super-speed vs. a Mistborn, Radiant, etc. (Vin travels at twice the speed of a horse her first time trying long distance Allomantic travel. I don't know Roshar's air pressure, but a double Lashing - about 1.4 Earth gravities - would probably have terminal velocity well over 100mph.)

8 hours ago, Nameless said:

All this said, this thread is turning into another Scadrial vs. Roshar argument. Think about this: if radiants can easily beat even a fullborn, the most powerful thing that scadrial has ever seen, why do they need power suppressors? How will any conflict between them have narrative tension if Roshar has literally every advantage?

I do think Fullborn are definitely stronger overall than Radiants, except maybe a 'Bondsmith unchained'. I just think that F-steel super-speed by itself is overrated, and Roshar has a few specific tricks that would be hard for Scadrian magic to counter.

That assumes that there will be a Scadrial vs. Roshar conflict in space age cosmere, but also, right now Scadrial has a huge tech advantage. Era 2 Scadrial is not too far off time-wise from Stormlight first arc, and Scadrial is ~1910 while Roshar seems basically High Middle Ages tech wise* - though they use magic to get around some of those limitations (spanreed communications, Soulcasters for logistics).

If Roshar follows their current path, their "tech" will be way more magic dependent, and so Scadrial might counter the magic advantage with vastly better mundane tech.

*The best mundane armor, from Dalinar's flashbacks, is "plate and mail" - they don't seem to have the metallurgy to make full articulated plate armor, even though they have an example of what it would look like from Shardplate.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

That assumes that there will be a Scadrial vs. Roshar conflict in space age cosmere, but also, right now Scadrial has a huge tech advantage. Era 2 Scadrial is not too far off time-wise from Stormlight first arc, and Scadrial is ~1910 while Roshar seems basically High Middle Ages tech wise* - though they use magic to get around some of those limitations (spanreed communications, Soulcasters for logistics).

If Roshar follows their current path, their "tech" will be way more magic dependent, and so Scadrial might counter the magic advantage with vastly better mundane tech.

*The best mundane armor, from Dalinar's flashbacks, is "plate and mail" - they don't seem to have the metallurgy to make full articulated plate armor, even though they have an example of what it would look like from Shardplate.

Roshar will use Fabrials instead of traditional technology. Which places them with or even ahead of Scadrial as they have FTL communication, transportation, they're slightly behind on powerered flight but far ahead in spacefairing.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think at this ridiculous level of tapping F-gold, she wouldn't feel any pain because the healing would happen so fast there would be no time to perceive the damage.

I think she would. Even Miles would have felt pain if he hadn't lost his sense of it. He at least noticed that he was injured briefly. 

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

That assumes that there will be a Scadrial vs. Roshar conflict in space age cosmere, but also, right now Scadrial has a huge tech advantage. Era 2 Scadrial is not too far off time-wise from Stormlight first arc, and Scadrial is ~1910 while Roshar seems basically High Middle Ages tech wise* - though they use magic to get around some of those limitations (spanreed communications, Soulcasters for logistics).

That is true, but as of BoM, north Scadrial at least has barely any weapons and is stagnating in their tech tree. South Scadrial does have city-killing bombs and seem to be fairly militaristic, or at least some of them are, and we don't know enough to know how quickly their tech is advancing, although we have no reason to assume that it is stagnating like north Scadrial. However, whatever level of technology increase they have is nothing compared to Roshar. Books one through five are about 10-20 years before Era 2 starts, and in the space of a couple of years Rosharan magictech has gone from basic modern fabrial science to flying airships and breakthroughs in science that not even Khriss had figured out. Scadrial is going to need that tech advantage, because once Rosharans figure out how to get investiture offworld, power suppressors will ensure that technology is all that they get. Or maybe not, this is all mostly baseless speculation.

However, this thread is about pitting a fullborn against a fourth ideal radiant, and I think we've mostly agreed that a radiant's only chance involves trickery, surprise, luck, deception, overwhelming numbers, or a bondsmith. Or some other similar massive advantage.

That said, theorizing about the potential power balance between Roshar and Scadrial is fun. Who's ready for Scadrial versus Roshar post TLM?

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That is true, but as of BoM, north Scadrial at least has barely any weapons and is stagnating in their tech tree. South Scadrial does have city-killing bombs and seem to be fairly militaristic, or at least some of them are, and we don't know enough to know how quickly their tech is advancing, although we have no reason to assume that it is stagnating like north Scadrial. However, whatever level of technology increase they have is nothing compared to Roshar. Books one through five are about 10-20 years before Era 2 starts, and in the space of a couple of years Rosharan magictech has gone from basic modern fabrial science to flying airships and breakthroughs in science that not even Khriss had figured out. Scadrial is going to need that tech advantage, because once Rosharans figure out how to get investiture offworld, power suppressors will ensure that technology is all that they get. Or maybe not, this is all mostly baseless speculation.

Compounders, Lerasium allomancers, and the like could realistically push through suppression, but yeah it's just a little broken.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That said, theorizing about the potential power balance between Roshar and Scadrial is fun. Who's ready for Scadrial versus Roshar post TLM?

I went through my posts from that thread just a few days ago in preparation. I simultaiously dread and anticipate the release date.

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

I think she would. Even Miles would have felt pain if he hadn't lost his sense of it. He at least noticed that he was injured briefly.

I think that is true when tapping/Compounding at halfway sane rates, but Marasi was really tapping crazy amounts of speed - if she tapped equal amounts of healing, the damage might literally heal faster than the nerves could react.

[+Bzhydack]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I am going to have to look for references to this in Era 2, I kind of thought there were mentions going both ways on this.

This was about Radiants, not Allomancers. Wax multiple times react to bullets.

 

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

That is true, but as of BoM, north Scadrial at least has barely any weapons and is stagnating in their tech tree. South Scadrial does have city-killing bombs and seem to be fairly militaristic, or at least some of them are, and we don't know enough to know how quickly their tech is advancing, although we have no reason to assume that it is stagnating like north Scadrial. However, whatever level of technology increase they have is nothing compared to Roshar. Books one through five are about 10-20 years before Era 2 starts, and in the space of a couple of years Rosharan magictech has gone from basic modern fabrial science to flying airships and breakthroughs in science that not even Khriss had figured out. Scadrial is going to need that tech advantage, because once Rosharans figure out how to get investiture offworld, power suppressors will ensure that technology is all that they get. Or maybe not, this is all mostly baseless speculation.

Scadrial is advancig faster, than most of us give them credit to. They went from Final Empire state of early medieval (with some twists) to disel engines and elecricity in 300 years, and this is still not as fast as they could, if they would have proper impulse - like rival civilzation. Or war.

Roshar, yes , is advancing very fast, but only in specific fields. Also flying ship is basicly the same technology as spanreeds, and this mean it took few dozens years to reach this level (from the first spanreed to Bridge Four) and also one Herdazian.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This was about Radiants, not Allomancers. Wax multiple times react to bullets.

 

Scadrial is advancig faster, than most of us give them credit to. They went from Final Empire state of early medieval (with some twists) to disel engines and elecricity in 300 years, and this is still not as fast as they could, if they would have proper impulse - like rival civilzation. Or war.

Roshar, yes , is advancing very fast, but only in specific fields. Also flying ship is basicly the same technology as spanreeds, and this mean it took few dozens years to reach this level (from the first spanreed to Bridge Four) and also one Herdazian.

If Wax could react to bullets, his bubble thing would be useless. He has to push before he gets shot at to block bullets.

Scadrial is where they are because they were handed tech by Harmony. He basically told them how to make just about everything that they have.

 Saying that a flying airship is just a spanreed is like saying an airplane is just an engine. Roshar is advancing very fast on multiple fronts. Fabrials have gone from exclusive to the very rich to widely available. Yes, the current major developments focus on conjoined fabrials and tones, but those are both major breakthroughs. Anti light brings the potential for high-yield explosives, and especially with the different-sized gem breakthrough, fabrial jets seem more likely than ever. Roshar is advancing very fast, even if you ignore the magical applications of their tech and look only at the mundane.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Nameless

[+Bzhydack]

51 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If Wax could react to bullets, his bubble thing would be useless. He has to push before he gets shot at to block bullets.

It was stated many times that shoting Coinshot is poitless, because they can just Push incoming bullets int shoter. And Steelbubble is not usless in this case, because allows you to do other things (like aiming) and not being constantly focused just on incoming bullets.

55 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Scadrial is where they are because they were handed tech by Harmony. He basically told them how to make just about everything that they have.

Nope, he gave them only what he have in his metalminds. It was a lot, but definitly not everything they have now. It was just the foundation of advancement. For example, it was just idea of steam engine (Khlenni were not far from it), but now they have trains and ships, and gas engines.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

 Saying that a flying airship is just a spanreed is like saying an airplane is just an engine. Roshar is advancing very fast on multiple fronts. Fabrials have gone from exclusive to the very rich to widely available. Yes, the current major developments focus on conjoined fabrials and tones, but those are both major breakthroughs. Anti light brings the potential for high-yield explosives, and especially with the different-sized gem breakthrough, fabrial jets seem more likely than ever. Roshar is advancing very fast, even if you ignore the magical applications of their tech and look only at the mundane.

Im not saying Roshar is not advancing. No, Roshar is advancig very fast, but still there are basic fields where they lack a lot, and this is stoping them. Like metalurgy for example.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Scadrial is advancig faster, than most of us give them credit to. They went from Final Empire state of early medieval (with some twists) to disel engines and elecricity in 300 years, and this is still not as fast as they could, if they would have proper impulse - like rival civilzation. Or war.

It's not desel, they don't have hydrocarbons that refined.

14 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Im not saying Roshar is not advancing. No, Roshar is advancig very fast, but still there are basic fields where they lack a lot, and this is stoping them. Like metalurgy for example.

You don't need metallurgy when you have soulcasting, they can have any metal they want.

[+Bzhydack]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's not desel, they don't have hydrocarbons that refined.

Ok, Gas, Biogas, whatever, simply forget how in English is called "Silnik spalinowy".

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You don't need metallurgy when you have soulcasting, they can have any metal they want.

Disagree. You can Soulcast only if you know what you want Soulcast, so you are stuck with metals (and literaly anything) you know. What mean you simply cant find new compositions, alloys or even elements, important for further advancment. 

[Frustration]

27 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Disagree. You can Soulcast only if you know what you want Soulcast, so you are stuck with metals (and literaly anything) you know. What mean you simply cant find new compositions, alloys or even elements, important for further advancment. 

Considering they've found multiple types of blood, which they have no way of telling apart I don't think them not knowing is enough to prevent them from making it.

[Some Random Spren]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:30 AM, Oltux72 said:

These questions suffer from a lack of context.

Are we talking about an empty desert or an urban environment of an advanced civilization? Who can afford to wait? Do you care about bystanders or collateral damage?

The environment most advantageous to the Radiant: open ocean on wooden ships - a Skybreaker would win, just attacking the ship
An urban environment wit a lot of steel frame buildings: the Radiant is dead

if they attack the ship then the fullborn can use cadmium compounding to remove the need to breath

On 2/7/2022 at 5:26 PM, Frustration said:

Which would require you to constantly be tapping it.

and you wouldn't need to until the ship sinks

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Some Random Spren said:

if they attack the ship then the fullborn can use cadmium compounding to remove the need to breath

and you wouldn't need to until the ship sinks

And they would need to continue to do so until they got back to shore, I don't think anyone other than a diving enthusiast has weeks of breath stored up.

[Some Random Spren]

Just now, Frustration said:

And they would need to continue to do so until they got back to shore, I don't think anyone other than a diving enthusiast has weeks of breath stored up.

you wouldn't need to as long as you had cadmium on you

although fair point

[+Bzhydack]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering they've found multiple types of blood, which they have no way of telling apart I don't think them not knowing is enough to prevent them from making it.

Medicine is actually very advanced on Roshar, probably due constant wars. And because of agglutinantion, you dont need to know about antibodys and complements, you just need to observe blood reaction between each other, what is actually relatvly easy to do, there are only 4 blood types after all.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Medicine is actually very advanced on Roshar, probably due constant wars. And because of agglutinantion, you dont need to know about antibodys and complements, you just need to observe blood reaction between each other, what is actually relatvly easy to do, there are only 4 blood types after all.

Not really the most standard model lists 8, but in actuallity there are hundreds of types.

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Not really the most standard model lists 8, but in actuallity there are hundreds of types.

4 standard (A, B, AB, 0) + Rh factor (+/-) are the only ones that mainly matters. But with standard your fasion, you just cling to details, but miss the point of example.

BTW, Im not sure Rosharan cant tell apart blood types. They are now experimenting with vaccines, so they should have at least basic knowledge about microorganisms (what is wierd, because they should be more resistant to infections and desiseas) so they have way to observe them.

[NameIess]

27 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

BTW, Im not sure Rosharan cant tell apart blood types. They are now experimenting with vaccines, so they should have at least basic knowledge about microorganisms (what is wierd, because they should be more resistant to infections and desiseas) so they have way to observe them.

The heralds told humans about microorganisms.

[CryoZenith]

Yep. The Heralds come from Ashyn, and anyone who spent time in Ashyn knows about microorganisms for obvious reasons.

Speaking of Rosharan technology, keep in mind that they have clocks. That's huge. And indoor non-fire lighting. They're gonna do fine technology wise. Also once more Elsecallers bond spren they will be able to go to Shadesmar and do tech trades with the worldhoppers.

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

The heralds told humans about microorganisms.

Of course. But if humans know about something at least some of them wants to see this. And considering fact that on Roshar cuting glass, crystals and gems is quite important, they also have prisms, so they probably have lenses, mirrors and everything needet for microscope.

[NameIess]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

Of course. But if humans know about something at least some of them wants to see this. And considering fact that on Roshar cuting glass, crystals and gems is quite important, they also have prisms, so they probably have lenses, mirrors and everything needet for microscope.

Yeah, they probably have microscopes, but can you even see blood types in a microscope? I don't know.