Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[Frustration]

On living shardplate not needing light

Spoiler

"She dismissed her helm opening her face to the air-which felt cold, despite Emul's heat. She left the rest of her armor in place."  The interm is mostly talking but then it picks up "She did need a drink and some more stormlight." A little more talking followed by "The closed left gauntlet, where she held the Edgedanncer's topaz. She stared at it, then drew in the Light. That made her feel better, but not all of her fatigue was physical." -RoW page 757

So Jasnah is still wearing her armor, which is too heavy to do much of anything with without its additional strength, but doesn't have any Stormlight.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

On living shardplate not needing light

  Hide contents

"She dismissed her helm opening her face to the air-which felt cold, despite Emul's heat. She left the rest of her armor in place."  The interm is mostly talking but then it picks up "She did need a drink and some more stormlight." A little more talking followed by "The closed left gauntlet, where she held the Edgedanncer's topaz. She stared at it, then drew in the Light. That made her feel better, but not all of her fatigue was physical." -RoW page 757

So Jasnah is still wearing her armor, which is too heavy to do much of anything with without its additional strength, but doesn't have any Stormlight.

She has stormlight though. She is "running out" meaning the healing is slowing down, leading to her fatigue and need to breath, but is not entirely out.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

She has stormlight though. She is "running out" meaning the healing is slowing down, leading to her fatigue and need to breath, but is not entirely out.

She spent 2 hours fighting without refill, and everything between lines was talking to Wit, with no mention of Stormlight, she was out.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

She spent 2 hours fighting without refill, and everything between lines was talking to Wit, with no mention of Stormlight, she was out.

She literally thinks to herself two paragraphs above the Edgedancer giving her a large topaz "running out of stormlight". Look it up. page 756, chapter 64, third paragraph from the bottom, first line.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

She literally thinks to herself two paragraphs above the Edgedancer giving her a large topaz "running out of stormlight". Look it up. page 756, chapter 64, third paragraph from the bottom, first line.

You mean this one?

Quote

"After what seemed like an eternity, she found herself gasping, wiping blood from her helm to see. The helm opened vents on the side, bringing in cool fresh air, and she stumbled, standing alone on the battlefield. Wondering why she'd started breathing again. Running out of stormliht, she thought, numb." -RoW page 756

So she no longer has enough stormlight to sustain her without breathing, and she walks over to Wit and has a full conversation with him before getting more. Meaning that she's out long before she takes in more. 

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So she no longer has enough stormlight to sustain her without breathing, and she walks over to Wit and has a full conversation with him before getting more. Meaning that she's out long before she takes in more. 

The last bit of stormlight takes a lot longer to be expended, particularly if you aren't healing.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

The last bit of stormlight takes a lot longer to be expended, particularly if you aren't healing.

Source?

Once Kaladin starts breathing the last of his stormlight disipates rather quickly.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Source?

Once Kaladin starts breathing the last of his stormlight disipates rather quickly.

Kaladin. He noted that stormlight evaporated quickly at first, then slowly.

Quote

Holding Stormlight was like filling a wineskin--if you filled it to bursting and unstopped it, it would squirt out quickly then slow to a trickle. Same with the Light. WoR Ch. 2 p. 59

Kaladin also held stormlight without noticing it, and had a conversation with this stormlight in him. So Jasnah still had stormlight, just not enough to keep her exhaustion away or let her hold her breath forever.

[DiePie]

Shardplate does not innately need stormlight (the spren that make it up have enough investiture on their own to make plate usable without it), but it does need stormlight to repair.

 

However I would like to add that the only real weapon a fullborn has against a radiant is a duralumin-fuel steelpush (most likely on a coin). Fullborn wins if they can get consecutive hits on a major section of shardplate using this method, and Radiant wins if they can either trap/trick the fullborn, or get close enough to cutoff the spine/head of the fullborn with their shardblade.

Personally I think the Fullborn wins by just running a quater-mile away and launching coins like an artillery piece.

[NameIess]

26 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Shardplate does not innately need stormlight (the spren that make it up have enough investiture on their own to make plate usable without it), but it does need stormlight to repair.

 

We don't know that. We never explicitly see someone using plate without stormlight, and dead plate spren should still have enough investiture to work it on their own yeah? Unless you have some quote that I missed.

26 minutes ago, DiePie said:

However I would like to add that the only real weapon a fullborn has against a radiant is a duralumin-fuel steelpush (most likely on a coin). Fullborn wins if they can get consecutive hits on a major section of shardplate using this method, and Radiant wins if they can either trap/trick the fullborn, or get close enough to cutoff the spine/head of the fullborn with their shardblade.

F-gold can heal shardblade wounds. F-pewter can destroy shardplate. F-steel can make the Fullborn impossibly quick. They can move so fast that a radiant has no opportunity to react. With F-nicrosil compounding, they can push on the trace metals in the ground, or in the radiant's bloodstream. With F-iron they can jump on top of the radiant and crush them. With F-brass, they can superheat themselves to a million degress and burn the radiant to ash.

Seriously, at the end of BoM, Marasi got the bands of mourning, tapped speed to go faster than the speed of sound, casually pushed Suit and Telsin away from her by their hemalurgic spikes and pushed off the trace metals in the stone beneath her. Then she gave it to Wax, who used F-gold to come back from the dead and pulled an entire airship out of the sky. All that with a metalmind spearhead as large as Wayne's palm. A fourth ideal radiant will be no more of a threat to a fullborn than a flea in open combat.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Nameless

[Ookla of Colors]

Fullborn can't break a living Sprenshield. Shardblades don't break.

There are shields that are made so you can curl up under them and not be able to be gotten from the sides.

Fullborn also might not be able to Pull a Sprenshield, since they're literally made of investiture...

And traditional Atium is actually an Atium alloy iirc, so it's not an accurate data point.

 

Where does it say that living Shardplate needs stormlight to fix itself?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Tani

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Tani said:

Fullborn can't break a living Sprenshield. Shardblades don't break.

Can the shield completely surround the radiant? No. Fullborn can superspeed around the radiant and smash them to pieces before they can even blink.

[Ookla of Colors]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Can the shield completely surround the radiant? No. Fullborn can superspeed around the radiant and smash them to pieces before they can even blink.

4 minutes ago, Tani said:

There are shields that are made so you can curl up under them and not be able to be gotten from the sides.

Added benefit of it being living: The shield can literally bury its own edges.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Tani

[Frustration]

I have found a way for the Radinat to win

Step 1: Be the protagonist.

Step 2: Have the plot require you to win.

Step 3: Profit.

Jokes aside I don't see any way a 1 vs 1 ends up with a Radiant victory other than attacking unexcpectedly and hoping ot kill them before they get a chance to react. Which is already hard and kind of cheating. Once Radiants get a 2 or 3 person advantage it becomes possible, but still insanly hard.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Can the shield completely surround the radiant? No. Fullborn can superspeed around the radiant and smash them to pieces before they can even blink.

That's a bit of an overstatement, Fullborn can get to supersonic speeds but the only time we see that was with metalminds so full that they were indistinguishable from aluminum and after only a few seconds of use were being drained so fast that it surprised the user.

However the fact that it is possible should remain in consideration.

EDIT: Supersonic not Hypersonic

Edited February 9, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Sorry, didn't see your edit.

7 minutes ago, Tani said:

Fullborn can't break a living Sprenshield. Shardblades don't break.

Correct. Short of something like Nightblood, shardblades are indestructible.

7 minutes ago, Tani said:

There are shields that are made so you can curl up under them and not be able to be gotten from the sides.

The sides don't matter. The Fullborn could pull the ground out from beneath you with superpowered A-iron. Even if you completely surround yourself (Which I doubt you can, considering blades have a maximum size, you don't get close to winning, only temporarily surviving.

10 minutes ago, Tani said:

Fullborn also might not be able to Pull a Sprenshield, since they're literally made of investiture...

They can't, or at least not without extreme levels of power that even compounding F-nicrosil might be unable to achieve.

11 minutes ago, Tani said:

And traditional Atium is actually an Atium alloy iirc, so it's not an accurate data point.

Atium is different because Brandon hadn't thought up the higher levels of investiture resist investiture yet. Being an alloy would only make it slightly less resistant, as it would still be made of mostly pure investiture.

12 minutes ago, Tani said:

Where does it say that living Shardplate needs stormlight to fix itself?

Jasnah's plate "laps up" stormlight to repair itself.

9 minutes ago, Tani said:

Added benefit of it being living: The shield can literally bury its own edges.

Doesn't matter because the fullborn can push/pull on the trace metals in the rock or earth beneath you.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's a bit of an overstatement, Fullborn can get to hypersonic speeds but the only time we see that was with metalminds so full that they were indistinguishable from aluminum and after only a few seconds of use were being drained so fast that it surprised the user.

Steel's cheap. No reason not to compound tons of it, particularly given how broken it is. F-steel and F-gold are the two essentials for any Fullborn that wants to stay alive, along with F-chromium or A-electrum with F-zinc.

[Ookla of Colors]

Step 1: Curl up as small as you can

Step 2: Summon Nahel bond spren as orb surrounding you completely. (Should be possible, if you can scrunch up small enough)

Step 3: Wait until the Fullborn quits trying to kill you.

In this case, survival is a win.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Tani

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Steel's cheap. No reason not to compound tons of it, particularly given how broken it is. F-steel and F-gold are the two essentials for any Fullborn that wants to stay alive, along with F-chromium or A-electrum with F-zinc.

You would likely need to compound Nicrosil as well I don't think steel on it's own will get up to those speeds.

Just on a mechanics standpoint still completly doable.

Just now, Tani said:

Step 1: Curl up as small as you can

Step 2: Summon Nahel bond spren as orb surrounding you completely. (Should be possible, if you can scrunch up small enough)

Step 3: Wait until the Fullborn quits trying to kill you.

Fullborn Nicrosil compounds steel and then Duralumin pushes you into the stratosphere.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Tani said:

Step 1: Curl up as small as you can

Step 2: Summon Nahel bond spren as orb surrounding you completely. (Should be possible, if you can scrunch up small enough)

Step 3: Wait until the Fullborn quits trying to kill you.

Step 4: run out of stormlight and get punted three miles.

Other step 4: realize your job wasn't to survive, it was to win a fight, which you didn't do.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You would likely need to compound Nicrosil as well I don't think steel on it's own will get up to those speeds.

Just on a mechanics standpoint still completly doable.

Why would you need to compound Nicrosil? Feruchemy strength only affects how quickly you can store, right? Marasi didn't even need A-pewter to survive those speeds, as she didn't have the metals to do so.

Edit- Oh cool, 2,000 posts.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Nameless

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Why would you need to compound Nicrosil? Feruchemy strength only affects how quickly you can store, right? Marasi didn't even need A-pewter to survive those speeds, as she didn't have the metals to do so.

The main reson being A-pewter F-steel is faster and Double steel

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

This is kind of a stretch here but even TLR who is far stronger with Allomacy than anyone else we have seen would lose to Rand

Spoiler

TaeSeanDo

The Lord Ruler with all 16 metals vs Rand al'Thor. Who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Rand. The one power is far stronger than even compounding metals.

General Twitter 2015 (Oct. 30, 2015)

Which I mean isn't saying much because you know... Rand. But moving at unbealivable speeds to try and kill him still wouldn't work.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The main reson being A-pewter F-steel is faster and Double steel

Right, but Marasi didn't have A-pewter. She didn't have any metals at all, so she could go supersonic without needing A-pewter to keep her together.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

This is kind of a stretch here but even TLR who is far stronger with Allomacy than anyone else we have seen would lose to Rand

That's probably because Rand is a Ta'Veren *cough* plot armor *cough*, but disregarding that, TLR could still sneak up behind him for the strike. Rand just has a natural advantage if they are on an even playing field. (Disregarding plot armor, of course Rand would win with that). Similarly, a Fullborn has a (much larger) natural advantage against any Radiant besides maybe a Bondsmith, and as such, although it is of course possible for the radiant to win, they would need a significant advantage such as complete surprise soulcasting from the cognitive realm, murdering a Fullborn while he's been dumb enough to fall asleep, or power suppressors to completely shut down all the metallic arts would grant them.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Right, but Marasi didn't have A-pewter. She didn't have any metals at all, so she could go supersonic without needing A-pewter to keep her together.

So something else is going on, it's not just steel, it's more powerful than it should be.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

So something else is going on, it's not just steel, it's more powerful than it should be.

Or maybe nothing's going on that's abnormal. Brandon doesn't say how fast normal steelrunners can go, or how long an A-pewter F-steel twinborn would have to store in order to win a race, just that A-pewter lets you go faster than normal.

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Or maybe nothing's going on that's abnormal. Brandon doesn't say how fast normal steelrunners can go, or how long an A-pewter F-steel twinborn would have to store in order to win a race, just that A-pewter lets you go faster than normal.

I won't say that's impossible, but I feel that's outside steel's normal limit.

Edit: @Nameless Steel/steel would obviously have more speed to compress therefore steel has a reasonable limit otherwise the steel compounder would blow past the Steel/pewter as the mild boost pewter gives in comparison would not be able to overcome it.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Frustration

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, Tani said:

Step 1: Curl up as small as you can

Step 2: Summon Nahel bond spren as orb surrounding you completely. (Should be possible, if you can scrunch up small enough)

Step 3: Wait until the Fullborn quits trying to kill you.

In this case, survival is a win.

Fullborn has yet another ace.

A-Chromium. 

He probably would not be able to destroy Spren, but maybe can hurt Spren, maybe damage Plate, and also can burn away Radiant's Stormlight Reserve.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I won't say that's impossible, but I feel that's outside steel's normal limit.

Paalm was able to run so fast that she shot four bullets from four places, but they were heared as one (what also means F-steel is affecting your equipment too, because weapon had to have speeded up trigger and hammer)

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Paalm was able to run so fast that she shot four bullets from four places, but they were heared as one (what also means F-steel is affecting your equipment too, because weapon had to have speeded up trigger and hammer)

Or you have four guns.

And on top of that Palm had acess to some strange magic so I don't think using her as an example is fair.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Fullborn has yet another ace.

A-Chromium. 

He probably would not be able to destroy Spren, but maybe can hurt Spren, maybe damage Plate, and also can burn away Radiant's Stormlight Reserve.

EDIT: Yo I just figured out how to quote people in an edit. The mods are going to come get me now, because no man whould have this much power.

I don't think it would work on spren, as Chromium doesn't seem to be able to affect souls. Now it might be possible as a chromium equivalent to pushing on trace metals, but with Spren's additional investiture adding resistance I don't know if it will be a reasonable accomplishment.

Additionally Plate would resist having it's stormlight drained, and assuming it only needs to use light to repair will insulate the Radiant as well.

Spoiler

ProfessorWC

Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy.

General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

An invested object resists any attempt to put additional investment into it. Just like you can't pull metal that's inside a person's body. When the Shardplate cracks, the streams of Stormlight that you're seeing are actually the plate doing what it's supposed to: healing itself. So, theoretically, you could maybe pull a tiny fraction of that Stormlight out, but you can't just stick your hand up to the outside of the plate and retrieve it. However, if you have the plate open with the gem exposed and you were to touch the gem, then you could pull the Stormlight from it."

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

FirstRyder

Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

havoc_mayhem

Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection?

Brandon Sanderson

Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)

Starfishpr1me

Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible?

Brandon Sanderson

So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else.

You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult.

If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016)

 

4 hours ago, Nameless said:

Kaladin. He noted that stormlight evaporated quickly at first, then slowly.

Stormlight will leak through your skin just by holding it, the more you hold the faster it will leak, however once you start breathing your stormlight is exhaled increadibly quickly.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Frustration