Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Additionally he has been put on a timer as he can't breathe

compound breath

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

compound breath

How much breath does he have?

Even assuming he had some, he has to use that up constantly, and he can't make any more.

And breath is one of the attributes he's almost certain to not have in large amounts unless he really likes deep sea diving.

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How much breath does he have?

Even assuming he had some, he has to use that up constantly, and he can't make any more.

And breath is one of the attributes he's almost certain to not have in large amounts unless he really likes deep sea diving.

You're right that he wouldn't have large amounts of breath stored, because F-gold replaces it. And F-gold (along with F-steel) is the attribute that a smart fullborn will have a ton of.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You're right that he wouldn't have large amounts of breath stored, because F-gold replaces it. And F-gold (along with F-steel) is the attribute that a smart fullborn will have a ton of.

Air has a density of 1.225*10^-3g/cm^3

Osmium has a density of 22.59g/cm^3

The air around his body will get ~2000 times more constricted, I doubt he survives in the first place, and even if he does, what little gold is left won't be enough to sustain him.

Now whether he could escape before the casting took place is another question. 

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Air has a density of 1.225*10^-3g/cm^3

Osmium has a density of 22.59g/cm^3

The air around his body will get ~2000 times more constricted, I doubt he survives in the first place, and even if he does, what little gold is left won't be enough to sustain him.

Now whether he could escape before the casting took place is another question.

Again, Miles survived being point-blank exploded without a problem. Wax had just about his entire body completely crushed. Neither of them got close to running out of healing. A smart fullborn will have the equivalent of decades to centuries of healing stored. Healing from being completely crushed won't be a problem.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Again, Miles survived being point-blank exploded without a problem. Wax had just about his entire body completely crushed. Neither of them got close to running out of healing. A smart fullborn will have the equivalent of decades to centuries of healing stored. Healing from being completely crushed won't be a problem.

His head is likely going to be separated from his neck, and then liquidated, any metalminds he has will be on his arms, which will also be separated and pulverized.

I don't see how he survives. Now if he can get out before the soulcasting takes effect that would be a different story, but if he stays inside I think he's dead.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

His head is likely going to be separated from his neck, and then liquidated, any metalminds he has will be on his arms, which will also be separated and pulverized.

I don't see how he survives. Now if he can get out before the soulcasting takes effect that would be a different story, but if he stays inside I think he's dead.

Flaring pewter will let him survive. Obviously he would have to be tapping gold heavily to survive, but either burning electrum (you would see your mangled corpse at least briefly) or tapping chromium (giving you the intuition to survive) would warn you in time. (Also, why is the osmium going to constrict? wouldn't it just absorb tons of air from around itself?)

Anyways, this entire argument is kinda moot. A fullborn will always have a massive advantage in almost any encounter. A smart fullborn that constantly taps chromium might even be immune to assassination from the cognitive realm. In the end though, the best method of beating a fullborn is going to be hitting them with an extremely powerful power dampener, (you might need an effect as powerful as Urithiru at full power) and then killing them. Either that or getting an Elsecaller of the fifth ideal or a herald with soulcasting in the cognitive realm with a ton of stormlight and soulcasting the fullborn or the fullborn's metalminds. Assassination is the best method, and no magic system we've seen besides elantrians at full power or heralds back in the directly fueled by Honor days could even begin to match a fullborn in open combat.

[+Bzhydack]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Air has a density of 1.225*10^-3g/cm^3

Osmium has a density of 22.59g/cm^3

The air around his body will get ~2000 times more constricted, I doubt he survives in the first place, and even if he does, what little gold is left won't be enough to sustain him.

Now whether he could escape before the casting took place is another question. 

Why you constantly sais "He will be crushed"?

Soulcasting is not conversion atom to atom. Is conversion mass to mass (with some oddities, like preserving shape). So to build the amount of osmium, he would need to physicaly suck air from around - to have 6 m^3 of osmium (brick of 2x2x2 m with space inside) is needet to have 112500 m^3 of air - it is whole soccer stadion (with stands) and even then, it would not compress space inside untill gravity make all that fall. Maybe it will take less, because of mentioned earlier oddities, but still you need A LOT. And Fullborn still can simply Push all this away from him, with help of F-Iron.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

4 hours ago, Nameless said:

Again, Miles survived being point-blank exploded without a problem. Wax had just about his entire body completely crushed. Neither of them got close to running out of healing. A smart fullborn will have the equivalent of decades to centuries of healing stored. Healing from being completely crushed won't be a problem

I still think strait beheading where your head is completely separated from your body by the metal(ideally aluminum) is a guaranteed death for a F-gold

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

I still think strait beheading where your head is completely separated from your body by the metal(ideally aluminum) is a guaranteed death for a F-gold

Not if you're tapping healing when your head is cut off. Otherwise Wax's plan against Miles would've been "sneak up behind him and cut his head off" instead of "wrap him up in nets so that he can't escape"

[Kandrafish]

In general, I'd say the Fullborn wins in most circumstances, except against a Bondsmith. I don't know how powerful Bondsmith's are, but the first thing that comes to mind is the Bondsmith connecting the Fullborn to the ground and the Fullborn Feruchemically healing the ground... If a Soulcasting Radiant catches the Fullborn off guard maybe he can be killed. I think surprise would be key. (Assuming no human error, the the Fullborn doesn't need to sleep so could be vigilant the whole time.)

The biggest incongruency in my mind is that the Fullborn is so much faster than the Radiant. If we assume that they have prepared to compound Speed and Mental Speed and we also assume that they have Bendalloy, the Fullborn can think so much faster that any split second decision the Radiant makes can be scrutinized by the Fullborn. 

[Kandrafish]

Hmmm... Suppose the Fullborn has no metal and the Radiant has no Stormlight, who would win?

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

Hmmm... Suppose the Fullborn has no metal and the Radiant has no Stormlight, who would win?

Radiant. Plate and Blade are too much for an ordinary guy to do anything about.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Radiant. Plate and Blade are too much for an ordinary guy to do anything about.

Well plate doesn't work without stormlight, but yeah, normal person versus shardbearer? shardbearer.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Well plate doesn't work without stormlight, but yeah, normal person versus shardbearer? shardbearer.

Dead plate doesn't, Living plate might.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Dead plate doesn't, Living plate might.

No way. Sure it'll be super durable, but for shardplate to give superstrength without stormlight would be absolutely broken, and wouldn't make sense at all. Dead shardblades don't need stormlight to function same as live ones and are functionally identical in every other way besides the shapeshifting and summoning, (just like dead plate to live plate) so I don't see any reason that dead shardplate would have such a major difference.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

No way. Sure it'll be super durable, but for shardplate to give superstrength without stormlight would be absolutely broken, and wouldn't make sense at all. Dead shardblades don't need stormlight to function same as live ones and are functionally identical in every other way besides the shapeshifting and summoning, (just like dead plate to live plate) so I don't see any reason that dead shardplate would have such a major difference.

Deadblades can't be dismissed without gems, Deadplate can't be used without stormlight.

Living blades can be dismissed without gems, I see no reason Deadplate can't be used without Stormlight.

And Jasnah fought for hours on a battlefeild, and (I think) without stormlight still used and moved her plate. though I'll check later.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Deadblades can't be dismissed without gems, Deadplate can't be used without stormlight.

Living blades can be dismissed without gems, I see no reason Deadplate can't be used without Stormlight.

Deadblades can't be dismissed without investiture to forge a bond, deadplate can't be dismissed at all because bonding a ton of lesser spren is way harder.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Living blades can be dismissed without gems, I see no reason Deadplate can't be used without Stormlight.

Dead blades can be dismissed without stormlight. You only need stormlight during the initial bonding process. So they still function identically in everything with or without stormlight, once you bond them.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And Jasnah fought for hours on a battlefeild, and (I think) without stormlight still used and moved her plate. though I'll check later.

Nope. She was running out of stormlight, but didn't fight without it, and was given a large gemstone before she ran out, then refilled on stormlight before going back into battle.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Deadblades can't be dismissed without investiture to forge a bond, deadplate can't be dismissed at all because bonding a ton of lesser spren is way harder.

Dead blades can be dismissed without stormlight. You only need stormlight during the initial bonding process. So they still function identically in everything with or without stormlight, once you bond them.

The gems in blades don't need light, and the gem itself is what matters not the investiture in it.

Spoiler

Adontis

I've always wondered, how do you determine where the line between "Word of Brandon" and "Read and Find Out" is? Has it ever caused issues where you've said something, but later that thing changed when it went into a book making your first statement now false?

Thanks so much for writing as much as you do, I'm looking forward to all your upcoming books, keep up the great work!

Brandon Sanderson

Boy, this one is an art, not a science.

I've several times said something that I later decided to change in a book. I've always got this idea in the back of my head that the books are canon, and things I say at signing aren't 100% canon. This is part because of a habit I have of falling back on things I decided years ago, then revised in notes after I realized they didn't work. My off-the-cuff instinct is still to go with what I had in my head for years, even when it's no longer canon.

An example of this are Shardblades. In the first draft of TWoK in 2002, I had the mechanics of the weapons work in a specific way. (If you wanted to steal one from someone, you knock off the bonding gemstone, and it breaks the bond.) I later decided it was more dramatic if you couldn't steal a Shardblade that way--you had to kill the person or force them to relinquish the bond. It worked far better.

But in Oathbringer, Peter had to remind me of that change, as I just kind of nonchalantly wrote into a scene a comment about knocking off a gemstone to steal a Shardblade. These things leak back in, as you might expect for a series I've been working on for some twenty years now--with lore being revised all along.

So...short answer...yes, I've contradicted myself a number of times. I try very, very hard to let the books be the canon however. So you can default to them.

As for what I answer and what I RAFO...it depends on how much I want to reveal at the moment, if I'm trying to preserve specific surprises, or if I just want people to focus on other things at the moment. Like I said, art and not science.

damenleeturks

In WoR, Navani muses to Dalinar about how the gemstones in the Blades could be the focus that allows the bond with the Blade to exist. If this theory is correct, it would follow that someone could damage that gemstone and thus be able to steal the Blade with it then having no intact bonding mechanism, right?

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how the example you describe isn't possible.

Peter Ahlstrom

The gemstone is needed to create the bond and operate the bond's functions. If you remove the gemstone, the person the sword is bonded to can't summon it or dismiss it to mist. But neither can anyone else. If they eventually pop another gemstone in and try to bond it themselves, they will fail, and the original person can then resummon their Blade. The bond is with the dead spren of the Blade, not with the gemstone. The stone facilitates the bond.

So, you can haul around a de-gemstoned Blade with you all the time and successfully steal it that way. But this makes it very easy to steal back. You'd have to kill the holder of the bond in order to rebond it. Which is no different from usual.

And in general, if you can get close enough to a Shardbearer to steal their Blade, you are also close enough to kill them anyway.

Phantine

So that scene where Dalinar crushes the gemstone and hands the Shardblade over, he's also doing some sort of mystical de-bonding?

Or is it just 'if you WANT to give it up, you gave it up'?

Peter Ahlstrom

Yes, if you want to give it up, you gave it up.

Phantine

If nobody is currently bonded to it, does the attuning still take a week?

Otherwise it seems weird people would figure out putting a gemstone in hilt lets you summon it, since nothing would happen without a week of bonding time.

ricree

Not that weird. One of the books (WoK, I think) mentions that many years passed before the gemstone bonding was discovered. Shardblades were still really valuable, though, and even more vulnerable to theft, so it makes sense that people would have kept them close at hand long enough for the bonding process.

Other than that, all you need is someone to accidentally decorate the blade correctly, which is something that took a long time to happen, but was probably bound to happen eventually considering how key infused gemstones are to the world.

Peter Ahlstrom

Well said.

/r/fantasy AMA 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

 

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Nope. She was running out of stormlight, but didn't fight without it, and was given a large gemstone before she ran out, then refilled on stormlight before going back into battle.

At the end, when she stops fighting, she needs to breathe because she doesn't have stormlight anymore so her plate opens up ventilation slits.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The gems in blades don't need light, and the gem itself is what matters not the investiture in it.

That's what I said.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

At the end, when she stops fighting, she needs to breathe because she doesn't have stormlight anymore so her plate opens up ventilation slits.

She didn't start breathing because she ran out, she starting breathing, then realized she was running out of stormlight. Even if she had run out of stormlight, plate being able to change form does not necessarily need stormlight. Living blades do so. The only thing that needs stormlight is the super strength. (and the regeneration, but we saw that it requires stormlight on page.)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

She didn't start breathing because she ran out, she starting breathing, then realized she was running out of stormlight. Even if she had run out of stormlight, plate being able to change form does not necessarily need stormlight. Living blades do so. The only thing that needs stormlight is the super strength. (and the regeneration, but we saw that it requires stormlight on page.)

Healing sure, but I don't think Strength does, it has to plate is too heavy to wear without the strength it gives.

And Adin kicked a stormform 20 feet with it and he can't hold stormlight.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Healing sure, but I don't think Strength does, it has to plate is too heavy to wear without the strength it gives.

And Adin kicked a stormform 20 feet with it and he can't hold stormlight.

That's the whole point. Once you run out of stormlight, plate becomes too heavy to use.

Well, there are three possible explanations for that. 1. Adin had some spheres on him. 2. Living plate can hold stormlight. 3. Brandon didn't think about it and thought it made for a cool scene.

But yeah, that does put a hole in my argument. My gut says it's way too overpowered, but we'll have to wait for later books or ask Brandon to find out for sure.

[Wandering Shade]

4th Ideal Radiant. So they have Shardblade, Shardplate, and both surges for all orders.

It would take extraordinary circumstances for a Radiant to beat a Fullborn.

The Fullborn would need to be a huge disadvantage for it to become a fair fight and even then the Radiant really has to get a headshot a few times in quick succession to drain the F-Gold reserves. Fullborn are really powerful, its unfair hahahhaha.

But this does give me an idea...

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Well, there are three possible explanations for that. 1. Adin had some spheres on him. 2. Living plate can hold stormlight. 3. Brandon didn't think about it and thought it made for a cool scene.

But yeah, that does put a hole in my argument. My gut says it's way too overpowered, but we'll have to wait for later books or ask Brandon to find out for sure.

4. It was Kaladin's Plate, so was charged by Kaladin in Highstorm, so was running on Kaladin's Stormlight.

I think Shardplate can hold some Stormlight. It glows on joints so should at least have a little in gasous form.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

4. It was Kaladin's Plate, so was charged by Kaladin in Highstorm, so was running on Kaladin's Stormlight.

I think Shardplate can hold some Stormlight. It glows on joints so should at least have a little in gasous form.

Yeah, but it isn't noted to be glowing until Kaladin wears it. and that would fall under #2.