Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiant

[bmcclure7]

Fullborn vs 4th ideal radiante.  Which orders can defeat a fullborn?

[+Invocation]

I don't think any of them can reliably do it. Steel Compounding takes any Radiant out without a worry and Gold Compounding erases the Shardblade advantage. The best bet would probably be giving a Stoneward, a Willshaper, a Lightweaver, or an Elsecaller some decent length of prep time to stoneshape or Soulcast some advantages into the terrain, but even that I'm not confident would do much beyond mildly inconveniencing the Fullborn.
They're just too powerful.

[+Oltux72]

These questions suffer from a lack of context.

Are we talking about an empty desert or an urban environment of an advanced civilization? Who can afford to wait? Do you care about bystanders or collateral damage?

The environment most advantageous to the Radiant: open ocean on wooden ships - a Skybreaker would win, just attacking the ship
An urban environment wit a lot of steel frame buildings: the Radiant is dead

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

These questions suffer from a lack of context.

Are we talking about an empty desert or an urban environment of an advanced civilization? Who can afford to wait? Do you care about bystanders or collateral damage?

The environment most advantageous to the Radiant: open ocean on wooden ships - a Skybreaker would win, just attacking the ship
An urban environment wit a lot of steel frame buildings: the Radiant is dead

Agreed.  The presence or lack of Atium also makes a pretty significant difference.  Does the Radiant know enough of Hemalurgy to weaponize aluminum?  Is it possible to soulcast a Block of aluminum around a fullborn fast enough to trap them, and does it's field effect interfere with internal effects like Compounding even if you do?

[NameIess]

The best bet any radiant has is to soulcast the fullborn from the cognitive realm. No radiant would win against a fullborn in open combat without a huge advantage like the fullborn being an idiot. Steel compounding is just too broken.

[HSuperLee]

Who would win, an mistborn slightly empowered by drawing upon Preservation's mists or a fullborn with 1,000 years of experience and massive metalmind stores?

Who would win, a Shard or a dying old man who just happens to be within reach of Nightblood?

Who would win, an uninvested man with a deadeye, a horse, and a big sword or twenty armed and brutal men?

 

Have I made my point?

[Proletariat]

The radiant (Edgedancer or Lightweaver) basically needs to kill a fullborn with one hit with Soulcasting, and inhale the stormlight and surgebind faster than it takes for a fullborn to tap speed. Speedsters of a sufficient level almost always win any superhuman combat scenario if you take characters out of their narrative context.

If you check out comic book forums that have similar debates you start to see that characters like the Flash just murder everything else if you get rid of the narrative constraints. An armed fullborn is simply hundreds of times faster than anything we've seen on any other Cosmere planet. Their only deficiency is that they're not very versatile as far as ranged attacks go, nor are they really capable of buffing others.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Proletariat

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Who would win, an mistborn slightly empowered by drawing upon Preservation's mists or a fullborn with 1,000 years of experience and massive metalmind stores?

Who would win, a Shard or a dying old man who just happens to be within reach of Nightblood?

Who would win, an uninvested man with a deadeye, a horse, and a big sword or twenty armed and brutal men?

 

Have I made my point?

That's like saying who would win, a guy who can warp reality by thinking or the guy who stabs him in his sleep.

Without some even more broken ability like Plot armor, and being the Protagonist, The Fullborn wins against most 4th ideal radiants 9 times out of ten.

The only real exceptions being Bondsmiths and Elsecallers.

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying who would win, a guy who can warp reality by thinking or the guy who stabs him in his sleep.

Without some even more broken ability like Plot armor, and being the Protagonist, The Fullborn wins against most 4th ideal radiants 9 times out of ten.

The only real exceptions being Bondsmiths and Elsecallers.

Elsecaller over Lightweaver, you think? Unless Elsecalling allows some quick point-to-point teleportation or an AOE realm-shift that can catch the Fullborn and shunt them entirely out of the Realm/situation, I think the deception capabilities of a Lightweaver (not to mention the potential for a semi-solid army summon, if they have the Light) would be more advantageous in the inevitably short duration fight with a speedster.  Bronze can hear Surges so it may not be as powerful as it could be, but Im curious whether Lightweaving is "quiet" enough to avoid it the way it did those alarm spren.  Or alternatively if there was a ton of it around the fullborn, could they differentiate the "sound" enough to know which of the things they see are illusions? Like if there were 100 aluminum arrow's flying but only one was real, could they find and dodge it?

Tangent: Can a lightweaving "fake" the sensory input of allomantic Bronze?

[HSuperLee]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying who would win, a guy who can warp reality by thinking or the guy who stabs him in his sleep.

Without some even more broken ability like Plot armor, and being the Protagonist, The Fullborn wins against most 4th ideal radiants 9 times out of ten.

The only real exceptions being Bondsmiths and Elsecallers.

You miss my point. I'm not saying that a fullborn shouldn't logically be able to beat virtually any radiant that could come at them, I'm just trying to make the point that fights are too complex to reduce down to the conditions and capabilities of the two fighters alone. 

Where are they fighting? Why are they fighting? Are they fighting at sunrise or sunset? Who has their back to the sun and who is facing it? Have they both had had time to prepare or did they surprise eachother. As Hoid said to Jasnah in RoW, there is no such thing as a fair fight.

Now, that said, I understand that some people find these kind of discussions fun, but I'm just trying to point out that any conclusions drawn from them are barely even theoretical. If everyone is okay with that, alright. But we've have a lot of discussions like this on the forum, and I'd be a lying if I said I don't occasionally participate in them as well. I'm just hoping everyone realizes by now that they are endless.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Elsecaller over Lightweaver, you think? Unless Elsecalling allows some quick point-to-point teleportation or an AOE realm-shift that can catch the Fullborn and shunt them entirely out of the Realm/situation, I think the deception capabilities of a Lightweaver (not to mention the potential for a semi-solid army summon, if they have the Light) would be more advantageous in the inevitably short duration fight with a speedster.  Bronze can hear Surges so it may not be as powerful as it could be, but Im curious whether Lightweaving is "quiet" enough to avoid it the way it did those alarm spren.  Or alternatively if there was a ton of it around the fullborn, could they differentiate the "sound" enough to know which of the things they see are illusions? Like if there were 100 aluminum arrow's flying but only one was real, could they find and dodge it?

Elsecallers can shift to the Cognitive realm and soulcast from there, they don't even need to soulcast the Fullborn, just soucast a decent amount of air around them to Osmium, and let them get crushed as super dense metal starts constricting on them from all sides.

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Tangent: Can a lightweaving "fake" the sensory input of allomantic Bronze?

Maybe?

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Elsecallers can shift to the Cognitive realm and soulcast from there, they don't even need to soulcast the Fullborn, just soucast a decent amount of air around them to Osmium, and let them get crushed as super dense metal starts constricting on them from all sides.

Maybe?

Ah, ok you sold me, that is a pretty solid defence and attack.  A Lightweaver could probably match it if they were already in the Cognitive but the elsecaller just has to survive long enough to transition and then the Fullborn both cannot Reach them and cannot run away*.  Unless the fullborn is clever or precognitive enough to immediately compound the crap out of something to maintain their Investments (ideally flaring their Identity) the Elsecaller might even be able to Soulcast them directly by accessing their flame.

 

*Wait.  So on Roshar everything manifest as flames and beads, and they dont have to be Co-Located.  But in Scadrial it's a misty ghost world and people appear where they are in the Physical realm, does that complicate the Targeting methods of Soulcasters? A flame couldnt outrun a soulcaster, but could a soulcaster target a misty ghost presence with Superspeed as easily?

[+Bzhydack]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Elsecallers can shift to the Cognitive realm and soulcast from there, they don't even need to soulcast the Fullborn, just soucast a decent amount of air around them to Osmium, and let them get crushed as super dense metal starts constricting on them from all sides.

Any metal-based attack agains Fullborn is pointless, he can be in gravitational sense (not atomic sense) much more dense than even Osmium thanks to Feruchemical Iron, and with this he can just Pull all this in all directions.

 

37 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Elsecaller over Lightweaver, you think? Unless Elsecalling allows some quick point-to-point teleportation or an AOE realm-shift that can catch the Fullborn and shunt them entirely out of the Realm/situation, I think the deception capabilities of a Lightweaver (not to mention the potential for a semi-solid army summon, if they have the Light) would be more advantageous in the inevitably short duration fight with a speedster.  Bronze can hear Surges so it may not be as powerful as it could be, but Im curious whether Lightweaving is "quiet" enough to avoid it the way it did those alarm spren.  Or alternatively if there was a ton of it around the fullborn, could they differentiate the "sound" enough to know which of the things they see are illusions? Like if there were 100 aluminum arrow's flying but only one was real, could they find and dodge it?

Tangent: Can a lightweaving "fake" the sensory input of allomantic Bronze?

Allomantic Bronze seems to be much more precise and sensible than anything on Roshar. Remeber, Allomancy is using relativly small amounts of Investiture compare to Rosharan Surges. And Vin was (of course she is stronger than normal due to hemalurgic spike) able to sense particular emotions soothed by Breeze, and even strengh of this, and Allomantic Brass needs even less power than other metals. Alendi was also able to hear Rythm of Preservation from miles away. 

So I dont think even Lightweaving would be subtle enough to hide from experienced Seeker.

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

So I dont think even Lightweaving would be subtle enough to hide from experienced Seeker.

I would agree with everything you say for all the other surges, but since Lightweaving has been shown to specifically resist similar detection I suspect it's going to be significantly harder to invalidate with Bronze (probably to preserve some semblance of usefulness in Era4).   

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Any metal-based attack agains Fullborn is pointless, he can be in gravitational sense (not atomic sense) much more dense than even Osmium thanks to Feruchemical Iron, and with this he can just Pull all this in all directions.

The density of Osmium only matters in that it will constrict on hin in all directions, effectivly crushing him. Even if he somehow survives, which would be a miricle unto itself pushing on it won't do anything ueful as it's one object with him inside of it, any push he does will shove him too.

Additionally he has been put on a timer as he can't breathe.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Frustration

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The density of Osmium only matters in that it will constrict on hin in all directions, effectivly crushing him. Even if he somehow survives, which would be a miricle unto itself pushing on it won't do anything ueful as it's one object with him inside of it, any push he does will shove him too.

First, Soulcasting isnt immediet. It takes time, short but noticable, to Soulcast larger amounts of matter. So Fulkborn with Allomantic Bronze would be able to sense this and react fast enough to dodge or strice back by Pulling. When Jasnah Soulcasted wall, is even mentioned that air needs to be sucked in proximity of this wall - what mean it was soulcasted rather part by part, not all at once, probably also because of much lesser density of air than metal.

Second, Pushing in all directions with being much denser than metal would simply rip out this metal ball, because I dont thint Elscaller would have enough Stormlight in the Cognitive to Soulcast throu Realms on and on. Soulcasting is simply too energy consuming.

Third, he has A-Bendaloy, he can use it to shift times of Soulcasting in two places, so with Metal in one place and air in other he can escape.

Fourth, he can see throu Reams too thanks to F-Chromium, F-Zinc, A-Electrum and A-Duralumin. Not even mentioned Atium (Elend was able to see Kelsier in Cognitive).

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Additionally he has been put on a timer as he can't breathe.

Khof, khoff, Compounded Cadmium, Khof khof Compounded Gold.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

First, Soulcasting isnt immediet. It takes time, short but noticable, to Soulcast larger amounts of matter. So Fulkborn with Allomantic Bronze would be able to sense this and react fast enough to dodge or strice back by Pulling. When Jasnah Soulcasted wall, is even mentioned that air needs to be sucked in proximity of this wall - what mean it was soulcasted rather part by part, not all at once, probably also because of much lesser density of air than metal.

No, but it's fast enough they won't get out.

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Second, Pushing in all directions with being much denser than metal would simply rip out this metal ball, because I dont thint Elscaller would have enough Stormlight in the Cognitive to Soulcast throu Realms on and on. Soulcasting is simply too energy consuming.

It's still one object, with no misplaced parts or obvious places of distiction, Unless he knows how to use Steelsight I doubt he's going to be able to push on it more than once at a time.

Additionally we have no indication that Soulcasting from the CR is more Stormlight intensive than from the Physical

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Third, he has A-Bendaloy, he can use it to shift times of Soulcasting in two places, so with Metal in one place and air in other he can escape.

Assuming he knows that it's happening and doesn't panic.

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Fourth, he can see throu Reams too thanks to F-Chromium, F-Zinc, A-Electrum and A-Duralumin. Not even mentioned Atium (Elend was able to see Kelsier in Cognitive).

F-chromium is fortune, not Cognitive realm sight, F-Zinc is mental speed, A-Electrum is seeing your future not the CR, and Elend was also about to cross into the CR anyway so I doubt we can use him as a base example.

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Khof, khoff, Compounded Cadmium, Khof khof Compounded Gold.

Unless he's a diving enthusist why would he have a massive store of Cadmium? And he only has so much gold, which the vast majority of would be used to keep himself from being crushed in the initial casting.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, but it's fast enough they won't get out.

It's still one object, with no misplaced parts or obvious places of distiction, Unless he knows how to use Steelsight I doubt he's going to be able to push on it more than once at a time.

Additionally we have no indication that Soulcasting from the CR is more Stormlight intensive than from the Physical

Assuming he knows that it's happening and doesn't panic.

F-chromium is fortune, not Cognitive realm sight, F-Zinc is mental speed, A-Electrum is seeing your future not the CR, and Elend was also about to cross into the CR anyway so I doubt we can use him as a base example.

Unless he's a diving enthusist why would he have a massive store of Cadmium? And he only has so much gold, which the vast majority of would be used to keep himself from being crushed in the initial casting.

Fullborn are basically Miles in terms of F-gold stores, and he survived being exploded at point-blank range and still had tons of healing left. They can have massive levels of allomantic power, including A-pewter so powerful that they can bend Osmium like putty. F-chromium will likely give you a feeling that you should tap steel and run away at superspeed, flare pewter, tap gold, zinc, cadmium, and whatever. Kelsier could push on multiple parts of the same object, and he didn't have steelsight. You just have to be experienced with A-steel and iron, which a fullborn probably would be.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Fullborn are basically Miles in terms of F-gold stores, and he survived being exploded at point-blank range and still had tons of healing left. They can have massive levels of allomantic power, including A-pewter so powerful that they can bend Osmium like putty.

You are going off Rashek who made himself stronger with Allomancy than a reasonable sized bead of Lerasium would give you, I don't think that should be taken as any Fullborns base strength.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

F-chromium will likely give you a feeling that you should tap steel and run away at superspeed, flare pewter, tap gold, zinc, cadmium, and whatever.

Which would require you to constantly be tapping it.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Kelsier could push on multiple parts of the same object, and he didn't have steelsight. You just have to be experienced with A-steel and iron, which a fullborn probably would be.

Rods have two distinct preceivable ends, sphere's are hard to preceive that way.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

You are going off Rashek who made himself stronger with Allomancy than a reasonable sized bead of Lerasium would give you, I don't think that should be taken as any Fullborns base strength.

F-nicrosil compounding?

Just now, Frustration said:

Which would require you to constantly be tapping it.

Why wouldn't you be?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Rods have two distinct preceivable ends, sphere's are hard to preceive that way.

That's a matter of perception. Just like sphere's have two easily perceivable halves: in front of you and behind you.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

F-nicrosil compounding?

That may work, I'll keep a lookout in LM for that.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Why wouldn't you be?

Because Chromium is expensive, and Fortune can be really good when you break through and peer directly into the SR.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That's a matter of perception. Just like sphere's have two easily perceivable halves: in front of you and behind you.

Yeah that might work.

[+Bzhydack]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, but it's fast enough they won't get out.

Not with F-Zinc and F-Steel.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's still one object, with no misplaced parts or obvious places of distiction, Unless he knows how to use Steelsight I doubt he's going to be able to push on it more than once at a time.

Additionally we have no indication that Soulcasting from the CR is more Stormlight intensive than from the Physical

Both Kelsier and Wax as able to Push different part of the same object. Is not matter of power or Stillsight, its matter of skill.

Should take more, because you need to pierce realmatic barier. And even not, is still physical limitation how much Elscaller can take with him.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Assuming he knows that it's happening and doesn't panic.

Again, F-Zinc and A-Bendalloy. Remeber how Wayne summoned Bubble to rethink how to dodge explosion? And not even mentioned A-Bronze to feel forreign Investiture, and F-Chromium for sense of danger...

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

F-chromium is fortune, not Cognitive realm sight, F-Zinc is mental speed, A-Electrum is seeing your future not the CR, and Elend was also about to cross into the CR anyway so I doubt we can use him as a base example.

F-Chromium gives you instinctive futuresight, with enough amount shoud allow to See throu Realms, what can be easily done with A-Duralumin. A-Electrum can show you how you die, and dodge, also with help of A-Duralumin, F-Zinc can help you process information fast enough.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Unless he's a diving enthusist why would he have a massive store of Cadmium? And he only has so much gold, which the vast majority of would be used to keep himself from being crushed in the initial casting.

And why Elsecaller would have so much Stormlight to Soulcast few tons of Osmium? Also, if we talking about Era 4 setings, F-Cadmium is one of the most usefull things.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Rods have two distinct preceivable ends, sphere's are hard to preceive that way.

Not if you are seing how is make from multiple particles. But this is simple physics, if we are able to Push on the Sphere from inside in every direction with enough strengh, it would burst like baloon.

Really, Frustration, we have this conversation before. You often forget about vast arsenal of Fullborn, only remember of those most obvious ones.

[NameIess]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because Chromium is expensive, and Fortune can be really good when you break through and peer directly into the SR.

You're a fullborn. You could make a killing in almost any field you wanted. Medical? Sell goldminds. Science? Compound zinc. Black market? Sell steelminds goldminds, pewterminds, medallions that give allomancy, and the like. Money is not an issue.

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Not with F-Zinc and F-Steel.

F-steel sure,

32 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Both Kelsier and Wax as able to Push different part of the same object. Is not matter of power or Stillsight, its matter of skill.

Perception also plays a part, I doubt either of them could push more than once on an infinate plain of steel

33 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Should take more, because you need to pierce realmatic barier.

You need to do that anyway.

34 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Again, F-Zinc and A-Bendalloy. Remeber how Wayne summoned Bubble to rethink how to dodge explosion? And not even mentioned A-Bronze to feel forreign Investiture, and F-Chromium for sense of danger...

Speed bubbles might work, though with the air being invested would you even be able to set one up?

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

And why Elsecaller would have so much Stormlight to Soulcast few tons of Osmium? 

Becasue their fighting a Fullborn?

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Really, Frustration, we have this conversation before. You often forget about vast arsenal of Fullborn, only remember of those most obvious ones.

Nah, I'm just running through my list of ideas on how to kill these things, trying to find something that doesn't require a small army of magic users.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

You're a fullborn. You could make a killing in almost any field you wanted. Medical? Sell goldminds. Science? Compound zinc. Black market? Sell steelminds goldminds, pewterminds, medallions that give allomancy, and the like. Money is not an issue.

That's fair.

[+Bzhydack]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

F-steel sure,

F-Zinc is also very usefull. It makes basicly the same as speed bubble, but for your thoughts. Wax was able to analyse all possible outcomes of his predicted actions, in split second between two words of his uncle. Dont underestimate that.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Perception also plays a part, I doubt either of them could push more than once on an infinate plain of steel

This also come with knowledge, we as humans are very good in dividing things into parts. There always is part with not-matching colour, or thickness, or literaly anything what doesnt match with rest.

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Speed bubbles might work, though with the air being invested would you even be able to set one up?

Thats very good question, but I think yes - because you not expanding bubnle from himself throu air, more like you isolate part of reality around you and slowing/speeding Connection of this part of reality with Spiritual Realm, and this causes time to shift. Basicly youre doing time dilatation, but without great speed or mass.

45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Becasue their fighting a Fullborn?

Probably thats fair. But if Fullborn knows someone is fighting against them, probably would have also vast reserves of metal. Other story is, of course, atepmpt of assasination.