Feb 7/22-Ace of Hearts-Red Angel ch 4 (4029 words, L, S)

[Ace of Hearts Misting]

No real sex in the chapter but talk about sexuality does tranlsate into talk about sex. 

 

Hi everyone,

 

The feedback I got on the first three chapters is basically the same: that it's unclear what the story actually is and what's getting it rolling. So I do want to say that I will try not to blindly rush ahead if I think the story hasn't solved any of the issues brought up. That being said, I am hoping that this chapter in particular gives us a better idea of what the story wants to be.

 

My main question after reading is: Do you think there's an interesting story here with S and Z's dynamic as the central focus and the rest of the themes/subplots branching off it? I'm honestly less concerned with whether or not this chapter nails it (though of course that's useful to know too) and more interested if this shows the potential of a real story to work with here. Because it seems like the earlier chapters didn't even have that. 

 

Thanks!

[kais Scadrian Waffle Cook]

Overall

Because your writing seems to primarily move through dialogue, I think you should consider writing entirely in epistolary style. You could then tell the story in memories and emotions and move the plot that way, which seems to be almost what you're trying to do, but through dialogue. As it stands now the format just isn't working. We keep being told about things but never getting to see them and that makes the reader feel really removed from the story.

We got about a page of plot total in this chapter, and it didn't move the plot so much as explain the theory of the plot. I'm still not sure what the inciting incident is, and from the writing you may not be sure, either. Might be time to go through and figure out where the plot movement actually starts, make that chapter one, and go from there.

16 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:

Do you think there's an interesting story here with S and Z's dynamic as the central focus and the rest of the themes/subplots branching off it?

Not as it stands, no. I need more concrete details. Less talking and more experiencing. If you really do want it to just be S and Z, then again, I think epistolary is the way to go. See The Tiger's Daughter for a modern take on this style. An older comp would be Dear Mr. Henshaw (middle grade, but a good example nonetheless).

 

As I go

- that first sentence is way too long and needs to be cut down

- I'm not sure what purpose the first page served

- pg 3: this interlude up through the top of page three doesn't seem to really add anything to the narrative. If it's a character building exercise, it should be much shorter and have a clear arc. It doesn't arc, so I don't see what it contributes to the plot

- pg 4: more talking about events and people and not actually getting to see them do anything

- pg 6: they're still just talking

- the memory on page 7 is very engaging and is the first time I've connected with a character

- the bottom of page 10 is a nice way to introduce ace/aro into the narrative

- pg 13: too much interiority through here. The plot is not moving

- pg 14: here is the plot finally 

 

[shatteredsmooth Son of Honor]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:

My main question after reading is: Do you think there's an interesting story here with S and Z's dynamic as the central focus and the rest of the themes/subplots branching off it? I'm honestly less concerned with whether or not this chapter nails it (though of course that's useful to know too) and more interested if this shows the potential of a real story to work with here. Because it seems like the earlier chapters didn't even have that. 

 

The dynamic between Z and S seemed very buried under all Z's internal thoughts and reflection on the past. I didn't notice much dynamic and am having a hard time pulling the real story out of all of that. 

I feel like there are two threads waring for attention:

Z wanting to know why her brother fought that fight he couldn't win. 

Z trying to figure out who the red angel assassin is. 

I think one needs to be more in the front than the other and really drive Z's actions. I want to see more forward progress on the plot and less looking back. 

As I go:

p.1

“Is this an idea from one of those books you read? Why don’t you practice with me like we used to?” This reaction seems off topic from what she was just told. Later, having a character call this out didn't make it less jarring. 

calico Every time I see this I think of cats.

"got stern gazes,, " Double comma

2

"...picking on her baby brother" Interesting bit of background

3

Cute little flashback vignette, but I'm not sure how it connects to the plot. I’m still not 100% sure of the plot. I think this would be fine if there was a stronger plot, but without a clearer sense of where things are going, I’m not too sure you should keep it.

4

“Do you think,” S said, “That her knowledge is dangerous enough to bring down H?”[CSA1]  Interesting. Now there is more plot. Although, it is a different thread than the other two plots I mentioned in my answer to your other question. Maybe the issue with Z's chapter is that there are so many different things she wants that it could go in too many different directions and doesn't have enough focus. 

10

Just like him, I’m not attracted to women... Format-wise looked like this was Z's thought but content-wise it sounded more like her remembering something her bother said. 

11

“If she shows up, he shows up" Two different pronouns for S in this sentence. Not sure if that was intentional or not but I thought S just he/him. Probably a typo? 

12

"slipped back into her own mind" Starting loose interest in all the backstory.

"N’s death was they key to everything, and it was making less and less sense to her." I’m not sure I understand what it is the key too. And I think they should be the.

13

"For one reason or another, N wanted to kill J. And it had something to do with the Red Angel." So is figuring why he did this the plot?

14

"shed more light on what the Red Angel was doing" Or is figuring out who this RA is and catching them the plot. And figuring out hat happened to the brother the secondary thing? There is too much reflection and backstory muddling it.

 

Overall, I think Z needs to have one clear objective / plot and the others need to be made subplots of that. I also would like to see less time in the past and more time in the present trying to achieve one of her goals. The moments I was the most engaged were the ones that happened in the present.

I think the scene with S was engaging because it had lots of tension and emotion, and that is the part where I made the least comments. However, it still doesn't have a ton of forward plot movement. 

Still, I'm curious to see where this goes next. 

[Mandamon Midnight Essence]

Similar thoughts to @kais on this. We're told a lot about the plot, but there's nothing really happening to move it forward. Figuring out where things start is a really good idea. There have been a lot of mentions of N getting killed, and it seem like that's a pivotal point we never see (which could be a prologue). After that...I'm not really sure what the aim is. How important is the red angel vs. the plot to ??? the ruler (I'm still not sure if it's to depose or to kill him).

On 2/6/2022 at 11:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:

Do you think there's an interesting story here with S and Z's dynamic as the central focus

Not really. I'm less connected with them after this chapter because part of it sounds like they're just getting to know each other, when they're siblings and have been around each other their whole lives. There's not a strong line of what holds them together. Z resents S being loved more, and S is sort of ambivalent to her? They're not thrown together, they choose to be, which makes me wonder why they bother if they don't have a lot in common. What is the plot thread that meas they have to work together? That would be a good place to start.

 

Notes while reading:

pg 1: The first sentence is pretty long. I had to read it a few times.

pg 1: Have we met N before? I'm not sure who he is what his condition is.
--edit: this is 5 years before. Got it.

pg 1: "She wanted to reject him just to see that smug grin drop off his face..."
--oh, wait, this is in N's POV isn't it. I'm not sure how connected I am to S and Z yet, let alone a third POV.

pg 2: "I’m not trying to make you miserable, Z.”
--I don't understand enough of the connections yet. I thought Z and S had a decent relationship?

pg 2: "As the days passed, she..."
--this reads like a POV switch in this paragraph.

pg 2: "I always wanted to learn how to draw..."
--they're all siblings, right? Don't they know each other very well?

pg 3: "They all shared a laugh at how different they all looked"
--same thing here. This is very expository

I'm not sure how much the "5 years previous" adds. It's sort of confusing me right now as to why the information can't be included in the rest of the text.

pg 4: "Your lover knows too much.”
--A lot of this seems very out in the open for some sort of plot against the royalty.

pg 5: "this ‘Spark’ of yours"
--I'm not sure I understand the plot they're talking about and who's doing what.

pg 6: “Please stop shouting, Z. We don’t want people to watch.”
--yeah, they're not very good at this whole "secret plan" thing.

pg 7: "his condition"
--Can this just be said rather than dancing around it?

pg 8: "and N followed her five minutes later."
--Ooooooh. they're twins. This would have been useful information earlier.

pg 9: the whole ordering food thing is not really pertinent to the rest of the conversation. I'm sort of struggling with what this chapter is conveying.

pg 10: Also not sure how necessary the discussion about sexuality and procreating is. It's fine for character description, but I'm not sure what it adds here.

pg 12: "Z realized that she knew next to nothing about D"
--what, just now? How long have they been working together?

pg 13: The goals of this chapter still seem pretty vague. They were talking about overthrowing the government, but that seems to be dependent on why N died? I'm not sure of the connection.

pg 14: I'm not really sure what this chapter has added. Is anyone closer to their goal? We were told a lot about the siblings, but I'm not sure how it adds to the story. We already knew about the investigation and the rebellion, and there isn't really any new information on that either.
 

[Ace of Hearts Misting]

Thanks @kais @Mandamon and @shatteredsmooth (for some reason the site won't let me tag you) for your thoughts! In some ways it's nice to have a consensus like this (even if it's that the story isn't working) because it provides a clear path forward. This is enough evidence at this point that I think I need to take a good hard look at the story and see how I want to rework the beginning, given that nothing here is really catching people's interest. Given that, I'll hold off on subbing until I feel like I've found a new path forward.  

Based on the feedback, it sounds like the big issue here with the dynamic between S and Z is that it doesn't go anywhere. Which means I do think there's still potential for a story that revolves around their dynamic (with their personalities more or less staying intact) if I connect it better to plot motion. Unless people disagree with that statement I think I'm going to focus on that and think about how to accomplish it in the next write-up. 

On 2/7/2022 at 4:04 PM, kais said:

Because your writing seems to primarily move through dialogue, I think you should consider writing entirely in epistolary style. You could then tell the story in memories and emotions and move the plot that way, which seems to be almost what you're trying to do, but through dialogue. As it stands now the format just isn't working. We keep being told about things but never getting to see them and that makes the reader feel really removed from the story.

I'll keep this in mind! I've never gotten this suggestion actually despite everyone commenting that I like dialogue so thanks. I think I'm going to try to take this framework in a different direction. Every chapter I'll ask myself "Is there any reason why this couldn't be done better in epistolary style?" And if the answer's no, I know I need to add more focus on in the moment actions rather than dialogue. But for the future I'll definitely keep an epistolary style in mind. 

On 2/8/2022 at 2:42 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I feel like there are two threads waring for attention:

Z wanting to know why her brother fought that fight he couldn't win. 

Z trying to figure out who the red angel assassin is. 

I think one needs to be more in the front than the other and really drive Z's actions. I want to see more forward progress on the plot and less looking back. 

That's a good point! It makes sense that these would feel disconnected right now. The problem that I need to solve is that the first is the real problem here but the second is the only one she has any way to make progress on. I think that Z's story might have to start later on when these two points become more connected. 

On 2/9/2022 at 1:14 PM, Mandamon said:

There's not a strong line of what holds them together. Z resents S being loved more, and S is sort of ambivalent to her? They're not thrown together, they choose to be, which makes me wonder why they bother if they don't have a lot in common. What is the plot thread that meas they have to work together? That would be a good place to start.

This is a great comment and I think it will really help me in thinking about their dynamic. It actually lines up pretty much exactly with what I learned when I researched romance plots (after writing this current draft): that for an interpersonal relationship to be interesting, characters must have something that pulls them together and something that pulls them away. Right now I think we have something that pulls them away (their different ideas on how to approach this tense situation), but nothing about their dynamic is pulling them together (like you identified, it's just the fact that they're siblings which is *very* nonspecific). My first thought is to focus more on how both of them are outcasts in some way who need to stick together, but we'll see how that changes with more thinking and more writing.            

Thanks again, everyone! Again, I appreciate people slogging through writing that has some core issues; I've never really gone through this editing process for a fantasy novel before so there's a lot for me to learn. 

[Silk Svrakiss]

As I read:

p1 “Is this an idea from one of those books you read?” Not sure this follows from the topic being discussed?

“while she got stern gazes,,” extra comma here

p2 “The stars faded from his eyes” also not sure what’s being said here? Is this literal? Or starry-eyed like admiration?

I wonder if you can bring the information from this flashback scene into the present, or at least roll some of the memory into a current scene? It seems to exist only to establish the relationship between the characters and the detail about the mats. If it were a more significant moment I might be more inclined to give it its own dedicated scene, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

So… Z ran away from home to join a resistance cell, but can still come and go as she pleases…?

P6 “in his sunset eyes” great turn of phrase, but did S not do the eyedrops thingy this time?

“Did you ever really care about either of us?” This seems like a leap on S’s part.

It seems odd to me that the “why aren’t you mad” is the only discussion of Z’s apparently well-known participation in an a rebellion against the monarchy, or the break-in at the palace. I would expect that break-in and the capture of Z’s girlfriend, both, to be driving the story a lot more than they seem to be.

P9 “...fine with a standard communal pot for two” feels a little as-you-know-Bob.

P10 “he could create a solution of—” Hah. You kind of deserved that one, Z.

“If I figure out what happened to N…” This isn’t working for me as a motivator for either character, because we know what happened to N; both Z and S saw it happen and have told us about it multiple times. I know there’s a link to the RA somehow, but it feels like a very tenuous connection, enough so that I don’t know why the characters are basing their thinking or actions on it so definitively.

So D is Z’s … handler, yes? That relationship isn’t at all apparent in this chapter; it reads much more like D is a friend. Neither is the fact that Z has to this point been kind of rebellious even within her own organization. I keep expecting to see some consequences for that and it hasn’t happened.

Bottom of p11 “if she shows up, he shows up” I think the first “she” is a typo (though at first I thought it was D misgendering S)

Z has been acting a lot more conciliatory over this chapter than previous chapters would have led me to expect.

P13 “dilapidated enough to the point…” So they’re squatting?

And wordsmithing, I’d probably say either “dilapidated enough” or “dilapidated to the point that…” as the two communicate different things.

“Like she needed another reminder of how she was the one…” in the last chapter she seemed very willing to be part of this revolution. Why the change of heart?

This note from Z’s leader… was it written in code? Sealed? Any sort of security measures at all to keep the wrong person from reading it, or assure Z of its authenticity?

Another point of confusion… Is Z just being allowed to wander around? J seemed to want to have her captured in one of the previous chapters, I think, given her relationship to some of the revolutionary elements, but with the possible exception of the fight in the street she’s run into no opposition from that corner.

Overall: This chapter gave a better sense of where Z and S stand with each other, in a way that actually feels like a significant shift from previous chapters. I think some stronger emotion would help us get a feel for where the relationship stands as it's obvoiusly complicated, but it's hard to pick up the nuance when the characters are both pretty calm throughout this conversation. Still, I think it gave me a better sense overall of where their relationship is at.

I don’t, however, have a good understanding of how to place this chapter within the overall story, because I don’t have a good grasp on the story itself yet – which of course is a problem four chapters in.

This letter revealing that J is somehow working with the RA feels important, maybe even understated. Given the way the story’s been circling the RA so far, I wonder if this letter should be moved waaaaaaaay up front. It could kick off the story by giving Z and S a more compelling and concrete reason to start pursing the RA to begin with, with that initial search leading them to the inciting incident somehow and the rebellion/break-in thing being a B-plot or complicating factor, since that seems to be very much a secondary thread.

 

[Ace of Hearts Misting]

Thanks for your thoughts @Silk! I've been mulling around ideas today that I think might help deal with some of the logical issues you're pointing out with what Z is doing. Which is mostly that she's been out of town entirely for the past year, which also gives more weight to her getting involved with this stuff now. 

14 minutes ago, Silk said:

This chapter gave a better sense of where Z and S stand with each other, in a way that actually feels like a significant shift from previous chapters. I think some stronger emotion would help us get a feel for where the relationship stands as it's obvoiusly complicated, but it's hard to pick up the nuance when the characters are both pretty calm throughout this conversation. Still, I think it gave me a better sense overall of where their relationship is at.

 

This is good to know! And was honestly mostly what I was hoping for. I think it's pretty clear that this chapter is far from perfect but I'm glad that it feels like there's something there. 

15 minutes ago, Silk said:

I don’t, however, have a good understanding of how to place this chapter within the overall story, because I don’t have a good grasp on the story itself yet – which of course is a problem four chapters in.

This letter revealing that J is somehow working with the RA feels important, maybe even understated. Given the way the story’s been circling the RA so far, I wonder if this letter should be moved waaaaaaaay up front. It could kick off the story by giving Z and S a more compelling and concrete reason to start pursing the RA to begin with, with that initial search leading them to the inciting incident somehow and the rebellion/break-in thing being a B-plot or complicating factor, since that seems to be very much a secondary thread.

Yep, regardless of how this chapter on its own was received I was pretty sure I was going to have to rework key elements of the story to feel more cohesive. A lot of what I've been thinking over today is how the RA is the mystery here but we don't get to see them do anything. I think connecting Z to that from the moment she appears is key to having her character work. The suggestion to move up J working with RA is good, and I think I need to go even further and have the RA do something rather than just kind stand around menacingly so that there's a reason to care. 

[Silk Svrakiss]

1 hour ago, Ace of Hearts said:

The suggestion to move up J working with RA is good, and I think I need to go even further and have the RA do something rather than just kind stand around menacingly so that there's a reason to care. 

100 percent agree.

[C_Vallion Gyorn]

Sorry for the delay in critiquing!

Pg 1:

General note (because it’s something I am working on catching myself at): Phrases like “the soldiers used” and “he was reading” as they’re used here are repetitive or unneeded.  We don’t need to know who usually uses the practice rooms, and we can assume N was reading the novel if he's holding it.  

“an idea from one of those books…” I feel like this usually implies some ridiculous idea that the person wouldn’t have thought of otherwise.  Is inviting their brother along so strange?

How old are they here? The jealousy from Z seems a little petty.

“Both he and Z had been slow…”  Several tense issues in this paragraph.

Pg 2:

How normal is vegetarianism in the culture?  I wonder how odd it would seem to restaurant staff to deal with that sort of special dietary request, when many make a big fuss about it even in the modern era, when we all know the meat processing industry is a horrible mess and most people whine about making adjustments for food allergies.

Pg 4:

“…don’t trust your organization.” I’m with S on this. I’m still not clear on how Z got involved with the organization, what she hopes to achieve by being part of it, or what they expect her to be doing for them.

Pg 5:

There are a few pronoun shifts regarding the leader of the organization. “He wouldn’t.” “She’s going to give…”

Pg 6-8

A lot of talking in these pages, some of which could probably be trimmed back.

Also, aren’t they concerned about being overheard, when Z is clearly quite upset?  Do the people there know who they are? I feel like several parts of the conversation would give their identities away. And wasn’t their brother trying to capture Z in one of the previous chapters? How has he missed that she and S meet up once a week?

Pg 9:

Probably don’t need the last part of this page discussing what to order.

Pg 10:

Also, using the term “aromantic” above, but going into roundabout explanation here in regards to her father seems odd. Especially since I’d expect more comparable cultures to have terms for homosexuality, while they probably wouldn’t have a term for aromantic

The talking to herself seems odd enough at the end of the page (we haven’t seen any tendency to do that before now), but that being a slip-up that gives away information she’d guarded for several years makes it just seem plot-convenient.

It also feels a little strange after having this big argument (which seems to have really affected her) with S for her to sit down and ponder about her family’s sexuality.

Pg 13:

I still have no idea what J has given as the reason for keeping refugees out of the city. It’s clear that Z disagrees with those reasons, but we don’t really have a why for that either.  

I think I’d need to know more about the details at the center of the current conflicts (The refugees. The insurgents. Why Z is living off by herself. Etc.) to see how the conflict between them plays into it.

I didn’t really get the impression that the end of their conversation was a “That’s it, we’re through” until Z talked about S probably not coming back next week. Z wants S to be more active, but it doesn’t seem like he has any real responsibilities in the palace.  What does she actually expect him to do without J shutting him down.  

Ultimately, I don’t know a ton at this point about what their individual goals are. We get that they both want to find the RA, but if that’s their main goal, how are they so at odds here, if they share a common top priority?   Beyond that, I don’t think we know enough about where they stand in the political/social setting of the story (what power/influence do they have, and what do they plan to do with it?) at this point to fully understand the tension of their argument here.
Z wants S to step up and act, but is that something he’s actually capable of doing?
Z also wants to help the refugees, but we don’t know anything about why they’re even there or why J is  so opposed to their very existence.

I also don’t get super excited about supposedly pure-evil antagonists (shocking, I’m sure, considering PoP). So there’s still part of me that wonders why we hate J so much, and if I trust Z’s opinion about him.

All of that being said, the basic idea of the conflict between a level-headed person trying to accomplish political change within the bounds of the laws while clashing with people who would rather overthrow the system and start from scratch is always intriguing to me (again: shocking, I’m sure, considering PoP). I just don’t think we have all of the details in place to make it work like it needs to. Which I fully sympathize with, having run into similar issues in all those early chapters of PoP that got cut.  Because when the subtleties of the political situation are extremely important to the plot, they need to come across early, but we also need to be really engaged with the characters to care at all about the politics.

I think your early chapters are trying to do too many things at once at the moment, and that while doing that, the important things are getting bogged down in things that could be introduced later.

[Ace of Hearts Misting]

2 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

All of that being said, the basic idea of the conflict between a level-headed person trying to accomplish political change within the bounds of the laws while clashing with people who would rather overthrow the system and start from scratch is always intriguing to me (again: shocking, I’m sure, considering PoP). I just don’t think we have all of the details in place to make it work like it needs to. Which I fully sympathize with, having run into similar issues in all those early chapters of PoP that got cut.  Because when the subtleties of the political situation are extremely important to the plot, they need to come across early, but we also need to be really engaged with the characters to care at all about the politics.

I think your early chapters are trying to do too many things at once at the moment, and that while doing that, the important things are getting bogged down in things that could be introduced later.

Agreed! And yeah you can probably see why I like PoP and was telling you to keep all of the political stuff in.

My current plan is to rewrite a good deal of the story oriented around the antagonists doing stuff immediately instead of all of these pieces that feel difficult to put together. 

Thanks for your thoughts!