Ixthos Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) What if ...? Expansion on "Hypothetical Magic Systems" topic Brief intro - I recently posted a topic about hypothetical magic systems that the four recently revealed but not shown Shards (plus the hypothetical Wisdom Shard) may produce, see here, giving a bare bones description of how the magic may be accessed or used in line with the Shards' intents. It wasn't intended to be a full description of intricate Cosmere magic systems, and we also know Brandon has said only Aethers remain of the more complex and powerful systems so far not yet shown, so all other systems are likely to be relatively minor. With that said, @DiePie mentioned they weren't that impressed with the descriptions I gave. Fair enough - here are some more slighty fleshed out magic systems, using the following ideas: Magic systems based on the five above mentioned Shards (Invention, Mercy, Valour, Whimsy, and Wisdom), How the power is initiated and what is needed to use it, and some restrictions on it, are based on the Shards, but what the power can do is not No longer being restricted to just a single Shard, but allowing multiple ones to power the system Set on existing Cosmere planets, but assuming that the Shards originally there are now gone, so it is just the above five  So, lets look at some possible magic systems. Here are a list of the planets and the nature of their focus or their influence:  Scadrial - metals must be involved, with different metals having different properties Spoiler Invention and Valour - Using the right metals, in the right combination, makes machines that produce particular effect, but making the device requires risking explosions and other trials, as the metals, when interacting, are extremely dangerous. Mercy and Wisdom - As someone is dying in pain they may quickly be put out of their misery with a metal spike. The spike will kill them instantly, but must remain in their bodies - the precise location depends on how the person is dying. Killing someone this way causes their body to produce an effect on the environment, and their Cognitive shadow remains behind to offer advice to anyone who comes near to the body to witness the effect. Whimsy - Touching a metal may or may not produce an effect on the person touching it - and the effect may or may not be beneficial. So touching pewter may make someone strong, or increase their weight, or cause them to fly into the sky. Those who risk touching metal are seen as both mad and powerful. They often have to come up with techniques to accommodate the seemingly random effects of the metals, but they also may understand the likelihood that a metal will produce a given effect, seeing the logic in the seeming randomness.  Sel - shapes Spoiler Note - may or may not involve the Cognitive Realm or an alternative form of the Dor, with one or more of the above Shards splintered and turned into a pseudo-Dor. Assuming shapes to be part of Sel's native magic, rather than because of Devotion and Dominion being splintered and their power locked in the Selish Cognitive Realm.  Invention and Mercy - Making new designs around existing symbols produces a magical effect, each effect unique and on-time only, and drawing these symbols as a last rite over an enemy both provides them peace in the Cognitive Realm - turning them into a Cognitive shadow - and produces an effect. The symbols must ultimately tell a story and eulogise the fallen enemy, who had to be someone you were enemies with. Valour and Wisdom - Those who undertake a quest to find hidden ruins may find the writings of a previous civilisation, and those shapes have power. Bringing stones back from those ruins and using them as the centre of the symbols allows for the effects to be produced. The effects mainly are related to providing protection to others and caring for one's people and seeing to their needs as is one's duty. Whimsy - Sometimes, when you draw certain shapes, they may have an effect, especially if they somehow relate to the land. The precise effect depends on how you are feeling at the time you draw it, and children often discover this power accidentally.  Roshar - spren Spoiler Invention - those who make something particularly interesting or make something with a great deal of skill allow the bead in the Cognitive Realm of the object to become a spren, the spren able to manifest physically to the inventor and bond with them. The bond allows the inventor to control the item remotely and power it, while the spren can travel a short distance away from the item it is the spren of. The spren may survive the item being destroyed, and may also merge with something new the inventor makes, and if so the powers the spren grants may change based on the new item made that it merges with - a crude helicopter may allow the spren to grant the inventor gravitation, while a music box may let them use Soothing, and a printing press may let them perform telepathy. If the inventor produces multiple items they may produce more spren, but there could be interference as the spren compete with each other, or the one interferes with the powers of the other, unless they can agree with each other. Mercy and Valour - Following a code of conduct, being brave in battle and showing mercy to your enemies, can draw a spren to you. So long as you remain brave and merciful the spren will remain with you, granting you abilities, but the bond can't become stronger or weaker, it can only be broken by cruelty or cowardice. Until that happens, the spren will loyally empower the user. Whimsy - Spren can randomly appear, made by someone's random actions, and then do something before disappearing, their life only a few minutes long. Wisdom - books and other sources of information will form a spren, and that spren knows everything recorded in the book. Those who learn the contents automatically bond with that spren, which has iterations across every copy of the book, though printing errors can cause ... interesting interactions. The spren will remain bonded to the person as long as they remember the contents of the book, and one can dump memories into the spren like with a coppermind.  Nalthis - command and colour Spoiler Valour - if a commander gives an order, especially a difficult order, to their soldiers, and their soldiers follow it, they gain the power to do it. The harder they try the more power they gain, though they may not be able to actually achieve their goal, such as if the enemy commander gives a command to their troops to stop them. The move vibrant the battlefield, the more spilt blood, the more burnt the ground, the stronger their abilities. This also applies for non-combat commands from a superior ("you will work overtime, and complete the project under budget!") Whimsy - Painting, and art, produces magical effects, and if painting something one can see and adding a random change to the picture, the actual world may change. Wisdom - Study of certain words which, when uttered at the right time, produce an effect. Studying those words is vital, and one must understand why the words work and the situations that are requires, and how to combine them to produce the effect desired. So it is a combination of the command and the situation and understanding why it would work in that situation.  Taldain - the sand and the lichen living on it Spoiler Valour - the sand remembers famous battles, and any new battle fought where the last one took place may be coaxed into producing constructs made of sand in the form of the original warriors, so the side with those who can command the most sand can have the most other warriors of sand join them. The warriors of sand last only as long as the battle, but some can be spoken to and are implied to actually somehow contain the memories and personality of the fallen warriors Whimsy and Wisdom - the sand moves randomly and can take various forms, and those with the correct insights and a strong enough mind can cause the sand to perminently lock into a single shape, so making solid permanent objects from the sand.  Threnody - being turned into a Shade Spoiler Invention - Making something innovative draws in Shades, which may try to destroy the invention. Mercy - Being turned into a Shade is a mercy - they congregate near where people suffer and transform them into Shades, who my often appear to those suffering to provide comfort, often by Soothing their negative emotions, or hiding those being hunted. Valour - Those who die in battle become Shades, who haunt the battlefield and may interfere in other battles, to slay the cowardly or aid the brave - depending on how they died in battle they may have different abilities, such as a Shade who died from a spear wound being able to manifest a spear or push and pull on the enemies spears, one who fell to their death after being driven off a cliff can manipulate gravity like a Windrunner, and so on.  First of the Sun - Aviar and their symbiotic worms Spoiler Invention and Wisdom - Aviar are like someone's muse, if one is bonded to you you gain insights into different fields, each field depending on the Aviar that has bonded you. Those who can attract multiple Aviar of the same type become even more insightful in that particular area, the Aviar acting like secondary minds for the person, and some Aviar can also be bonded to machines remotely, becoming processors for them - the Aviar like a mobile organic computer. Mercy - if you find an Aviar that is wounded and spare its life, it will bond to you and follow you, using its abilities to protect you, though possibly only once. Alternatively, if you show mercy to anyone, or are merciful in general an Aviar may choose to follow you. Valour - Aviar flock to places where people display great courage or skill despite the odds, the Aviars' presence causing magical effects to occur around them - so for example in the middle of an intense battle Aviar may fly overhead, and those who then lead the desperate last charge may find their strength enhanced, or their swords bursting to flame. Whimsy - Aviar appear randomly and may bond someone randomly, then move on later. The bonded ability is random. Aviar can also use their own abilities themselves, and do so to amuse themselves  Ashyn - diseases Spoiler  Invention - the diseases infect the mind of the individual, filling them with different ideas, some of which may or may not work. Each disease brings with it different ideas on different topics, so one may give someone inspired city planning ideas, while another may teach one about the fundamentals of nuclear physics. Thousands of mad inventors, some bed ridden and almost unable to move, while others stumble into workshops and drive themselves further into exhaustion, all raving of the ideas that fill their minds - just as their bodies are wracked with illness, so to are their minds, as they can't think of anything other than what the disease inspires them to think on. Mercy - as one is dying from the sickness they begin to gain abilities; the mercy is that, in the end as they die from the sickness, they can use its gifts. As the saying goes, it is a small mercy, but a mercy non-the-less. Some can use this to heal others who are sick, and some can use the disease to ease another's pain. Valour - if you are sick but don't let it deter you, you gain access to incredible abilities - those who should be confined to bed but force themselves out, even if it risks death, can do amazing things, but those who try to save themselves and just get well have no power.  Edited February 6, 2022 by Ixthos Formatting 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benkinsky Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 47 minutes ago, Ixthos said: the powers the spren grants may change based on the new item made that it merges with reminds me of Rotom (the Pokémon). Sounds like a fun parallel to Fabrial Spren Tech.  My favourite picks from your ideas are the following: 49 minutes ago, Ixthos said: Those who die in battle become Shades, who haunt the battlefield and may interfere in other battles My favourite, I think. The idea of valor-shades reminds me of Ghost Armies like in LotR or MBotF, and those are cool. Recieving not a Knight-Radiants-type-Buff for being valorous but more a Valhallah-Situation, being provided the opportunity to serve Valor in the afterlife, that would be cool. 50 minutes ago, Ixthos said: Whimsy - Painting, and art, produces magical effects I personally dislike "you randomly get powers" for Whimsy, we kind of already have that with the Shaod, and I feel like a random, but occuring, element like the wind or birth might work for Whimsy. This one I like though. Not sure on how the magic would work, but the idea of art and colours matching to whimsy, especially if the art is more free form and wild. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 15 hours ago, Ixthos said: What if ...? Expansion on "Hypothetical Magic Systems" topic Brief intro - I recently posted a topic about hypothetical magic systems that the four recently revealed but not shown Shards (plus the hypothetical Wisdom Shard) may produce, see here, giving a bare bones description of how the magic may be accessed or used in line with the Shards' intents. It wasn't intended to be a full description of intricate Cosmere magic systems, and we also know Brandon has said only Aethers remain of the more complex and powerful systems so far not yet shown, so all other systems are likely to be relatively minor. With that said, @DiePie mentioned they weren't that impressed with the descriptions I gave. Fair enough - here are some more slighty fleshed out magic systems, using the following ideas: Magic systems based on the five above mentioned Shards (Invention, Mercy, Valour, Whimsy, and Wisdom), How the power is initiated and what is needed to use it, and some restrictions on it, are based on the Shards, but what the power can do is not No longer being restricted to just a single Shard, but allowing multiple ones to power the system Set on existing Cosmere planets, but assuming that the Shards originally there are now gone, so it is just the above five  So, lets look at some possible magic systems. Here are a list of the planets and the nature of their focus or their influence:  Scadrial - metals must be involved, with different metals having different properties  Reveal hidden contents Invention and Valour - Using the right metals, in the right combination, makes machines that produce particular effect, but making the device requires risking explosions and other trials, as the metals, when interacting, are extremely dangerous. Mercy and Wisdom - As someone is dying in pain they may quickly be put out of their misery with a metal spike. The spike will kill them instantly, but must remain in their bodies - the precise location depends on how the person is dying. Killing someone this way causes their body to produce an effect on the environment, and their Cognitive shadow remains behind to offer advice to anyone who comes near to the body to witness the effect. Whimsy - Touching a metal may or may not produce an effect on the person touching it - and the effect may or may not be beneficial. So touching pewter may make someone strong, or increase their weight, or cause them to fly into the sky. Those who risk touching metal are seen as both mad and powerful. They often have to come up with techniques to accommodate the seemingly random effects of the metals, but they also may understand the likelihood that a metal will produce a given effect, seeing the logic in the seeming randomness.  Sel - shapes  Reveal hidden contents Note - may or may not involve the Cognitive Realm or an alternative form of the Dor, with one or more of the above Shards splintered and turned into a pseudo-Dor. Assuming shapes to be part of Sel's native magic, rather than because of Devotion and Dominion being splintered and their power locked in the Selish Cognitive Realm.  Invention and Mercy - Making new designs around existing symbols produces a magical effect, each effect unique and on-time only, and drawing these symbols as a last rite over an enemy both provides them peace in the Cognitive Realm - turning them into a Cognitive shadow - and produces an effect. The symbols must ultimately tell a story and eulogise the fallen enemy, who had to be someone you were enemies with. Valour and Wisdom - Those who undertake a quest to find hidden ruins may find the writings of a previous civilisation, and those shapes have power. Bringing stones back from those ruins and using them as the centre of the symbols allows for the effects to be produced. The effects mainly are related to providing protection to others and caring for one's people and seeing to their needs as is one's duty. Whimsy - Sometimes, when you draw certain shapes, they may have an effect, especially if they somehow relate to the land. The precise effect depends on how you are feeling at the time you draw it, and children often discover this power accidentally.  Roshar - spren  Reveal hidden contents Invention - those who make something particularly interesting or make something with a great deal of skill allow the bead in the Cognitive Realm of the object to become a spren, the spren able to manifest physically to the inventor and bond with them. The bond allows the inventor to control the item remotely and power it, while the spren can travel a short distance away from the item it is the spren of. The spren may survive the item being destroyed, and may also merge with something new the inventor makes, and if so the powers the spren grants may change based on the new item made that it merges with - a crude helicopter may allow the spren to grant the inventor gravitation, while a music box may let them use Soothing, and a printing press may let them perform telepathy. If the inventor produces multiple items they may produce more spren, but there could be interference as the spren compete with each other, or the one interferes with the powers of the other, unless they can agree with each other. Mercy and Valour - Following a code of conduct, being brave in battle and showing mercy to your enemies, can draw a spren to you. So long as you remain brave and merciful the spren will remain with you, granting you abilities, but the bond can't become stronger or weaker, it can only be broken by cruelty or cowardice. Until that happens, the spren will loyally empower the user. Whimsy - Spren can randomly appear, made by someone's random actions, and then do something before disappearing, their life only a few minutes long. Wisdom - books and other sources of information will form a spren, and that spren knows everything recorded in the book. Those who learn the contents automatically bond with that spren, which has iterations across every copy of the book, though printing errors can cause ... interesting interactions. The spren will remain bonded to the person as long as they remember the contents of the book, and one can dump memories into the spren like with a coppermind.  Nalthis - command and colour  Reveal hidden contents Valour - if a commander gives an order, especially a difficult order, to their soldiers, and their soldiers follow it, they gain the power to do it. The harder they try the more power they gain, though they may not be able to actually achieve their goal, such as if the enemy commander gives a command to their troops to stop them. The move vibrant the battlefield, the more spilt blood, the more burnt the ground, the stronger their abilities. This also applies for non-combat commands from a superior ("you will work overtime, and complete the project under budget!") Whimsy - Painting, and art, produces magical effects, and if painting something one can see and adding a random change to the picture, the actual world may change. Wisdom - Study of certain words which, when uttered at the right time, produce an effect. Studying those words is vital, and one must understand why the words work and the situations that are requires, and how to combine them to produce the effect desired. So it is a combination of the command and the situation and understanding why it would work in that situation.  Taldain - the sand and the lichen living on it  Reveal hidden contents Valour - the sand remembers famous battles, and any new battle fought where the last one took place may be coaxed into producing constructs made of sand in the form of the original warriors, so the side with those who can command the most sand can have the most other warriors of sand join them. The warriors of sand last only as long as the battle, but some can be spoken to and are implied to actually somehow contain the memories and personality of the fallen warriors Whimsy and Wisdom - the sand moves randomly and can take various forms, and those with the correct insights and a strong enough mind can cause the sand to perminently lock into a single shape, so making solid permanent objects from the sand.  Threnody - being turned into a Shade  Reveal hidden contents Invention - Making something innovative draws in Shades, which may try to destroy the invention. Mercy - Being turned into a Shade is a mercy - they congregate near where people suffer and transform them into Shades, who my often appear to those suffering to provide comfort, often by Soothing their negative emotions, or hiding those being hunted. Valour - Those who die in battle become Shades, who haunt the battlefield and may interfere in other battles, to slay the cowardly or aid the brave - depending on how they died in battle they may have different abilities, such as a Shade who died from a spear wound being able to manifest a spear or push and pull on the enemies spears, one who fell to their death after being driven off a cliff can manipulate gravity like a Windrunner, and so on.  First of the Sun - Aviar and their symbiotic worms  Reveal hidden contents Invention and Wisdom - Aviar are like someone's muse, if one is bonded to you you gain insights into different fields, each field depending on the Aviar that has bonded you. Those who can attract multiple Aviar of the same type become even more insightful in that particular area, the Aviar acting like secondary minds for the person, and some Aviar can also be bonded to machines remotely, becoming processors for them - the Aviar like a mobile organic computer. Mercy - if you find an Aviar that is wounded and spare its life, it will bond to you and follow you, using its abilities to protect you, though possibly only once. Alternatively, if you show mercy to anyone, or are merciful in general an Aviar may choose to follow you. Valour - Aviar flock to places where people display great courage or skill despite the odds, the Aviars' presence causing magical effects to occur around them - so for example in the middle of an intense battle Aviar may fly overhead, and those who then lead the desperate last charge may find their strength enhanced, or their swords bursting to flame. Whimsy - Aviar appear randomly and may bond someone randomly, then move on later. The bonded ability is random. Aviar can also use their own abilities themselves, and do so to amuse themselves  Ashyn - diseases  Reveal hidden contents  Invention - the diseases infect the mind of the individual, filling them with different ideas, some of which may or may not work. Each disease brings with it different ideas on different topics, so one may give someone inspired city planning ideas, while another may teach one about the fundamentals of nuclear physics. Thousands of mad inventors, some bed ridden and almost unable to move, while others stumble into workshops and drive themselves further into exhaustion, all raving of the ideas that fill their minds - just as their bodies are wracked with illness, so to are their minds, as they can't think of anything other than what the disease inspires them to think on. Mercy - as one is dying from the sickness they begin to gain abilities; the mercy is that, in the end as they die from the sickness, they can use its gifts. As the saying goes, it is a small mercy, but a mercy non-the-less. Some can use this to heal others who are sick, and some can use the disease to ease another's pain. Valour - if you are sick but don't let it deter you, you gain access to incredible abilities - those who should be confined to bed but force themselves out, even if it risks death, can do amazing things, but those who try to save themselves and just get well have no power.  Sel system Elantris Mercy. Those with a high level of empathy and generosity get eventually chosen to become Elentrians . ( Assuming of course they have the right connection to land) Wisdom, Valor: the brave and the wise are chosen. Whimsy just random and can last for days or decades.  Invention Only those Who have studied and memorized all the aons will become Elentrians.  Dachor : mercy you have something up to someone else (simular to how dachor works now but in reverse)  Wisdom : not sure  Valor: Instead of sacrificing someone you have to Go through a ritual where you face your fears every time you use the magic.  Invention: You have to come up with a new dachor shape.  Whsmy : The cost changes every time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 On 2/6/2022 at 1:55 PM, Benkinsky said: reminds me of Rotom (the Pokémon). Sounds like a fun parallel to Fabrial Spren Tech. I remember that one - it also has a cool design, though if I remember correctly in Platinum it's type didn't change based on the appliance, but in Heart Gold / Soul Silver it did.  On 2/6/2022 at 1:55 PM, Benkinsky said: My favourite picks from your ideas are the following: My favourite, I think. The idea of valor-shades reminds me of Ghost Armies like in LotR or MBotF, and those are cool. Recieving not a Knight-Radiants-type-Buff for being valorous but more a Valhallah-Situation, being provided the opportunity to serve Valor in the afterlife, that would be cool. Thanks  part of me naturally thinks of Valour as a twin to Honour, but I think mentally viewing Valour more as a "barbarian" Norse type of warrior focus - if warrior focused - would differentiate it from Honour's knights.  On 2/6/2022 at 1:55 PM, Benkinsky said: I personally dislike "you randomly get powers" for Whimsy, we kind of already have that with the Shaod, and I feel like a random, but occuring, element like the wind or birth might work for Whimsy. This one I like though. Not sure on how the magic would work, but the idea of art and colours matching to whimsy, especially if the art is more free form and wild. Whimsy is a little hard to come up with without random being a part of it - though it isn't clear if Whimsy fully embraces randomness and the erratic or is more about just general novelty. I'm going with random for the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if Whimsy is more about something "consistent", but amazing - each system associated with it, if several, being extremely odd, but still logical, much like looking at different ecosystems on Earth, with very odd things, seemingly designed to be whimsical, but still consistent and a stable system.   @bmcclure7 nice ideas  I especially like the Dakhor-mercy idea, the interesting twist on sacrificing oneself, and the Valour requiring manifesting valour each time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benkinsky Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 14 hours ago, Ixthos said: part of me naturally thinks of Valour as a twin to Honour, but I think mentally viewing Valour more as a "barbarian" Norse type of warrior focus - if warrior focused - would differentiate it from Honour's knights. we think very similar then. Makes me think Valor and Mercy would make a good Dishardic planet together, probably. My idea of a Valor-magic-system is something kind of like the Honorblades too, Mjölnir-type imbued artifacts/weapons/tools that grant their weilder abilities if they are worthy. (Makes me think of the "Never Cruel, nor cowardly. Never Give up, never give in" from Doctor Who). Those could obviously be weapons like Swords, Hammers, Battleaxes, whatever, but they could also easily be other artefacts of bravery, like cartography tools for exploration or something like that. Would definitely be close to the Knights Radiants, though without Cultivation it might not have the whole personal-growth-thing. (And it would make Dalinars "why aren't there Shard-tools" question foreshadowing for what they might eventually face in the cosmere. If there are Valor-shields for protection and Kaladin is still alive then he would 100% be worthy of wielding one) Squire to a wielder and get some minor abilities too. If the wielder dies, you might be worthy of wielding the artefact next. Extra points if your Valor-shade idea would fit in too. Sadly, the tranquiline halls already remind me of an afterlife, but maybe not a fully Valhallah-type one. Warriors and explorers and heroes so valorous they stay bound to their artefacts or return as Cognitive Shadows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 4 hours ago, Benkinsky said: we think very similar then. Makes me think Valor and Mercy would make a good Dishardic planet together, probably. Agreed, though unfortuanitly it's implied that there are very few planets that have multiple Shards, and I think only Sel, Roshar, and Scadrial have multiple Shards, ignoring Avatars. The rest likely are only on single worlds. Though if Avatars can power systems, Mercy and Valour would be a brilliant system.  4 hours ago, Benkinsky said: My idea of a Valor-magic-system is something kind of like the Honorblades too, Mjölnir-type imbued artifacts/weapons/tools that grant their weilder abilities if they are worthy. (Makes me think of the "Never Cruel, nor cowardly. Never Give up, never give in" from Doctor Who). Those could obviously be weapons like Swords, Hammers, Battleaxes, whatever, but they could also easily be other artefacts of bravery, like cartography tools for exploration or something like that. Would definitely be close to the Knights Radiants, though without Cultivation it might not have the whole personal-growth-thing. (And it would make Dalinars "why aren't there Shard-tools" question foreshadowing for what they might eventually face in the cosmere. If there are Valor-shields for protection and Kaladin is still alive then he would 100% be worthy of wielding one) Squire to a wielder and get some minor abilities too. If the wielder dies, you might be worthy of wielding the artefact next. Extra points if your Valor-shade idea would fit in too. Sadly, the tranquiline halls already remind me of an afterlife, but maybe not a fully Valhallah-type one. Warriors and explorers and heroes so valorous they stay bound to their artefacts or return as Cognitive Shadows. That would be so cool! Expanding on your last point, it could also be that the previous wielders of the weapons who become Cognitive Shadows attached to the weapon can be summoned forth to fight with the current wielder, or to offer them advice. Their "Valhalla" isn't in some other world, but right in the present, fighting the people their people have fought for generations. Combining ideas could let there be multiple systems on the planet, or the weapons are one system with associated Cognitive Shadows, and near to the Perpendicularity there is an effect that produces the Valour Shadows from the battles that took place near it. Maybe even those who drink from the Perpendicularity - who brave its dangers - can gain powers, but at the risk of dying from the liquid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benkinsky Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: near to the Perpendicularity there is an effect that produces the Valour Shadows from the battles that took place near it. oh, that would be really cool. You can reach the Perpendicularity - if you can. Maybe wielding one of the tools lets you pass easily though, as the Valor shadows recognize it. And oh, yeah. It would be really cool for one or even more of the last wielders to stick around as shadows, bound to the Weapons, and you can either summon them or they're just part of the tool. 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: Their "Valhalla" isn't in some other world, but right in the present oh HELL yeah. 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: Maybe even those who drink from the Perpendicularity - who brave its dangers - can gain powers, but at the risk of dying from the liquid. oh, cool! or maybe similar to Atium, Valorium (or whatever the Vessels Name is-ium) is found near the Perpendicularity, so if you want to forge a new weapon, you have to brave those dangers. Generations ago, one of the first people went through the difficulty of fighting through nature to find it, and made a cartograph or machete or something from the metal, and since then, some times new artefacts get made. Though it's become more and more difficult, since there's more and more Valor Shades there that you have to pass. Or, maybe wielders can go there to get the metal to forge smaller weapons/tools for their followers to become Squires. 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: Though if Avatars can power systems, Mercy and Valour would be a brilliant system. God, yes. Maybe Mercy put an Avatar there who is revered as a minor god or a second god to the people of the planet. It gives the necessary counterweight to "pure" bravery, it's what makes it so throughout the history of the planet, ruthlessness and cruelty kept being bested by noble people. And why when they meet off-worlders or a space fairing group, they'll be more open to contact than otherwise. Who knows, maybe they were one of the past places of the Iriali's Long Trail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 34 minutes ago, Benkinsky said: oh, that would be really cool. You can reach the Perpendicularity - if you can. Maybe wielding one of the tools lets you pass easily though, as the Valor shadows recognize it. And oh, yeah. It would be really cool for one or even more of the last wielders to stick around as shadows, bound to the Weapons, and you can either summon them or they're just part of the tool. Yup  it would also add a nice sense of thoughtfulness as well to the mix, that it isn't just mindless bravado or combat, but real people with real insights and beliefs, and being honoured among one's peers, the wisdom of former generations.  36 minutes ago, Benkinsky said: oh, cool! or maybe similar to Atium, Valorium (or whatever the Vessels Name is-ium) is found near the Perpendicularity, so if you want to forge a new weapon, you have to brave those dangers. Generations ago, one of the first people went through the difficulty of fighting through nature to find it, and made a cartograph or machete or something from the metal, and since then, some times new artefacts get made. Though it's become more and more difficult, since there's more and more Valor Shades there that you have to pass. Or, maybe wielders can go there to get the metal to forge smaller weapons/tools for their followers to become Squires. Yes! This also adds to the idea of it being a cultural thing, that there is depth to the people who use the items, and a lore behind the construction of the weapons - it could even add in some Odin parallels with having lost of limb or an eye to gain the material needed, but also respect from the Valour Shades when you do it.  38 minutes ago, Benkinsky said: God, yes. Maybe Mercy put an Avatar there who is revered as a minor god or a second god to the people of the planet. It gives the necessary counterweight to "pure" bravery, it's what makes it so throughout the history of the planet, ruthlessness and cruelty kept being bested by noble people. And why when they meet off-worlders or a space fairing group, they'll be more open to contact than otherwise. Who knows, maybe they were one of the past places of the Iriali's Long Trail. That would be so cool! And again, it builds towards the idea of the people having a complex culture, that they know they need to mix their love of combat with the need to value life, even the life of the enemy, and that there is strength in being both brave and merciful. I like the idea of tying the Iriali into it too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSuperLee Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 Man, y'all have given me nostalgia for first books in Cosmere series and the excitement that comes in a brand new magic system. I love it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 8 hours ago, HSuperLee said: Man, y'all have given me nostalgia for first books in Cosmere series and the excitement that comes in a brand new magic system. I love it. Glad to hear it!  Do you have any suggestions to modify any of the above, or a suggested system you'd like to make? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benkinsky Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: Yes! This also adds to the idea of it being a cultural thing, that there is depth to the people who use the items, and a lore behind the construction of the weapons - it could even add in some Odin parallels with having lost of limb or an eye to gain the material needed, but also respect from the Valour Shades when you do it. oh, that's cool!! I had another thought before going to bed, or multiple to be honest, that could fit this. If we have at our base a Valor-Mercy planet, or I guess a Valor-Planet with Mercy-Avatar or the other way round, maybe it's either as we said, you need to go to the perpendicularity to get the metal, OR that's just how the first artefacts were made, with Valorium, and now it's that - Sometimes, especially Valorous People become Cognitive Shadows, typically staying near to the Perpendicularity, the "gate to heaven" or whatever in many cultures. - Those can imbue an artefact. If you pass some tests/quest and manage to get to the Perpendicularity, one of the Ghosts (Cognitive Shadows) might consider you worthy/aligned to what they embody and imbue the artefact, granting its wielder abilities by establishing a connection to Valors Investiture. - The "easiest" way to get there is to sacrifice something of yours or be hurt, which sometimes gets the attention of Mercy/Mercys Avatar, who would help you But again, Mercy and Valor is kinda such a cool combo, it could work both ways. Are the abilities a reward for your bravery or a gift from mercy? Which one are the shades of? Valor-Shades sound very dangerous, and test your own Valor (if anyone has listened to TMA, think of Hunt Avatars and Hunt Monsters), possibly with Mercy mercifully helping you through. If Shades are a thing on that planet in this form, maybe Mercy Shades also exist, most of them harmless. (SH Spoiler:) Spoiler Leras couldn't kill Elend or destroy Ruin because of being Preservation so I wouldn't be surprised if Mercy Shades couldn't kill. Apart from, for some cool Plot or challenge for people, Shades that are of the interpretation/thought that is Mercy-killing. Which, now that I think of it, sacrificing parts of your own body would be a risk if those shades were around. If you're lucky, Mercy takes mercy on you or Valors shades commend it. If you're unlucky, one of those shades senses you as hurt and decides it would be a mercy to put you out of your misery. Man, Mercy and Valor are a cool combo. 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: that it isn't just mindless bravado or combat, but real people with real insights and beliefs, and being honoured among one's peers, the wisdom of former generations. Â 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: That would be so cool! And again, it builds towards the idea of the people having a complex culture, that they know they need to mix their love of combat with the need to value life, even the life of the enemy, and that there is strength in being both brave and merciful. yes! yes! Exactly! It really gives the kind of checks and balances that would be cool to see. It takes bravery to spare a life too, sometimes. It would maybe make it difficult for Tyrant-Type-Bad-Guys to become Lord Ruler or Godking types too. As in, you're probably a lot less brave when you're already the best and strongest. Then again, if the artefact they have (or artefacts) is imbued with a particularly nasty Shadow, who knows. Man I enjoy thinking about this if i were talented in art I'd make art now. Maybe I'll write a short story or something once my exams are over. Â 12 hours ago, HSuperLee said: Man, y'all have given me nostalgia for first books in Cosmere series and the excitement that comes in a brand new magic system. I love it. aww, hehe, thanks! Adding to @Ixthos if you got suggestions or ideas feel free to add them It's a ) not like any of this will be canon and b ) not like there couldn't be a more magic going on too. Sounds like we have the artefacts-that-are-connected-to-Valor-give-you-powers as a base idea, with the specifics unsure. But if Mercy has an avatar there or is present themselves, they're probably powering another magic system. And we'd for sure get some kind of Cultivation-Instead-Of-The-Nightwatcher / Compounding shenanigans where someone gets a Shield blessed, but not just by Valor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 6 hours ago, Benkinsky said: oh, that's cool!! I had another thought before going to bed, or multiple to be honest, that could fit this. If we have at our base a Valor-Mercy planet, or I guess a Valor-Planet with Mercy-Avatar or the other way round, maybe it's either as we said, you need to go to the perpendicularity to get the metal, OR that's just how the first artefacts were made, with Valorium, and now it's that - Sometimes, especially Valorous People become Cognitive Shadows, typically staying near to the Perpendicularity, the "gate to heaven" or whatever in many cultures. Ahhh, nice, the axis mundi of the world, like how the Greeks say Mount Olympus, a place the culture or culture's know is sacred, and which actually has spirits waiting there.  6 hours ago, Benkinsky said: - Those can imbue an artefact. If you pass some tests/quest and manage to get to the Perpendicularity, one of the Ghosts (Cognitive Shadows) might consider you worthy/aligned to what they embody and imbue the artefact, granting its wielder abilities by establishing a connection to Valors Investiture. Oh, sweet! A bit like how a spren becomes a Shardblade, but rather than an abstract concept this is an actual cultural hero actually takes possession of the weapon, becoming it. Your sword actually has the soul of this hero your people know, who died in battle, and has deemed you worthy to wield him in combat, to lend you his strength.  6 hours ago, Benkinsky said: - The "easiest" way to get there is to sacrifice something of yours or be hurt, which sometimes gets the attention of Mercy/Mercys Avatar, who would help you Nice - there are multiple routes one could take to engage with the power, and one is actually getting one of the local deities to help you, like the patronage some heroes gained in several classical myths. And again tying in a potential Odin analogy, the sacrifice of a limb or suffering a wound to gain what you need.  6 hours ago, Benkinsky said: But again, Mercy and Valor is kinda such a cool combo, it could work both ways. Are the abilities a reward for your bravery or a gift from mercy? Which one are the shades of? Valor-Shades sound very dangerous, and test your own Valor (if anyone has listened to TMA, think of Hunt Avatars and Hunt Monsters), possibly with Mercy mercifully helping you through. If Shades are a thing on that planet in this form, maybe Mercy Shades also exist, most of them harmless. (SH Spoiler:)  Hide contents Leras couldn't kill Elend or destroy Ruin because of being Preservation so I wouldn't be surprised if Mercy Shades couldn't kill. Apart from, for some cool Plot or challenge for people, Shades that are of the interpretation/thought that is Mercy-killing. Which, now that I think of it, sacrificing parts of your own body would be a risk if those shades were around. If you're lucky, Mercy takes mercy on you or Valors shades commend it. If you're unlucky, one of those shades senses you as hurt and decides it would be a mercy to put you out of your misery. Man, Mercy and Valor are a cool combo. Oh yes! And during battles they could function almost like valkyries, being of both Valour and Mercy, having mercy on the valorous who die, so that not everyone becomes a shade automatically, but rather when one of them helps - those dying but not yet dead taken by them. Or those who die outright become one type and those who survive but are dying become another. And those who are cowards are simply eased into death.  8 hours ago, Benkinsky said: yes! yes! Exactly! It really gives the kind of checks and balances that would be cool to see. It takes bravery to spare a life too, sometimes. It would maybe make it difficult for Tyrant-Type-Bad-Guys to become Lord Ruler or Godking types too. As in, you're probably a lot less brave when you're already the best and strongest. Then again, if the artefact they have (or artefacts) is imbued with a particularly nasty Shadow, who knows. Man I enjoy thinking about this if i were talented in art I'd make art now. Maybe I'll write a short story or something once my exams are over. It certainly has a lot of storytelling potential  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Using the right metals, in the right combination, makes machines that produce particular effect Why? Does it have to involve Intent? Is the effect triggered or always on? How is this different from Fabrials? Presumably the "right metals" would be the sixteen. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: but making the device requires risking explosions and other trials, as the metals, when interacting, are extremely dangerous. I don't think valour is the same as endangering the self needlessly, which reads more like idiocy to me. Gambling with your extremities just seems like a bad idea. Can anyone actually become proficient in this without a high cost of human life and suffering? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: As someone is dying in pain they may quickly be put out of their misery with a metal spike. The spike will kill them instantly, but must remain in their bodies - the precise location depends on how the person is dying. So if you get it wrong you risk increasing their agony for no reward? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Killing someone this way causes their body to produce an effect on the environment Why? What kind of effect? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: and their Cognitive shadow remains behind to offer advice to anyone who comes near to the body to witness the effect. Can they choose to move on? Are they bound to the spike/body? Is the body preserved or does the magic have a shelf life? Does being able to interact with the CS follow from witnessing the effect when produced or from entering its area of effect? If the CS is anchored to the spike and can't move on of their own accord, this is a very cruel thing to do. If the effect is permanent (body preserved), the CS can also enjoy such things as everyone they loved dying and their home crumbling, in addition to the mental strain and Intent warping that CS:s experience eventually. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Whimsy I don't like it. "Lolrandom" chaos for the sake of chaos isn't fun. I feel like the Shards should have some underlying, immutable nature, Preservation is always Preservation, Valor is always Valor, Whimsy is always Whimsy. I'd rather see something like a broad-spectrum system, power is always drawn, but the exact way it manifests has variance. So, if we use A-pewter as a base, the exact physical enhancements could vary, like getting more speed and less strength, but the same attributes would be affected each time. I could also see a system stemming from Whimsy as feeling unfinished, something like if Feruchemy had physical speed and memory, but not mental speed and strength. I would also like to say, as someone with both ADHD and BPD, that each fancy is a concrete thing in the moment. I'd rather extrapolate that each system emanating from Whimsy is stable and concrete, but that there's very little consistency between the systems. I also feel that just touching metal would be a far too easy way to access Investiture. That's also a question, do the metals burn off in any of these systems? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Making new designs around existing symbols produces a magical effect Isn't this basically AonDor? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: each effect unique and on-time only That sounds needlessly restrictive, to the tune of "sorry, we can't help you, R&D hasn't figured out a new healing spell yet." You also have no room to experiment, as each new design that works is instantly used up the moment you draw it. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: drawing these symbols as a last rite over an enemy both provides them peace in the Cognitive Realm - turning them into a Cognitive shadow - and produces an effect. How is enemy defined? What happens if you do this and the person survives? Why would providing them peace turn them into a CS? Is turning them into a CS not an effect? Why do you get to dictate someone else's emotional state? Is their emotional state permanently altered? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: The symbols must ultimately tell a story and eulogise the fallen enemy, who had to be someone you were enemies with. That's a high bar to entry, especially as you have to put it all together before they pass into the Beyond. Also, making someone a CS without their consent isn't merciful. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Those who undertake a quest to find hidden ruins may find the writings of a previous civilisation, and those shapes have power. This sounds like the ruins and artefacts are generated by the magic, rather than being extant. I'm getting strong D&D random sidequest vibes. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Bringing stones back from those ruins and using them as the centre of the symbols allows for the effects to be produced. What determines the symbols? Shouldn't symbols from a different civilisation have their own power, rather than gain new powers from being Indiana Jonesed? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: those who make something particularly interesting or make something with a great deal of skill allow the bead in the Cognitive Realm of the object to become a spren I don't think that would work. How does the Cognitive aspect of the object become a spren? What ramifications does this have for the object? What decides if something is interesting? What happens if the thing you make is a standard fabrial? I feel like a bead could not be taken from the Cognitive to the Physical, or that managing that would do something funky. Also, a change in the Physical isn't immediately reflected in the Cognitive. Building a wall won't instantly cause the stones to stop being individual beads in the Cognitive. The reverse is also true, see Dalinar "healing" the statue in Oathbringer. So the object probably wouldn't be "a thing" at the point of creation. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: The bond allows the inventor to control the item remotely and power it, while the spren can travel a short distance away from the item it is the spren of. What does power mean? Where does the power come from? Is there a maximum effective range? What happens if you make something like a really good chair? How would powering it and controlling it affect it? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: a crude helicopter may allow the spren to grant the inventor gravitation I don't like this, Gravitation isn't actually flight. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: while a music box may let them use Soothing Would a badly tuned music box, or one playing an ear-worm, let you Riot? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: and a printing press may let them perform telepathy I get that this is probably based on the concept of sharing ideas, but I don't really like it. I think any time someone speaks directly into another's mind, there's a Connection between them, so I'm curious how this works mechanically. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Following a code of conduct, being brave in battle and showing mercy to your enemies, can draw a spren to you. I mean, this is basically the Nahel bond. I think it's too similar. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: So long as you remain brave and merciful the spren will remain with you, granting you abilities, but the bond can't become stronger or weaker, it can only be broken by cruelty or cowardice. Who judges these qualities? Is there any margin for error, or is being human enough to guarantee that the bond will break at some point? Does the bond breaking hurt the spren? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: books and other sources of information will form a spren, and that spren knows everything recorded in the book. I wouldn't be suprised if "knowledgespren" or "learningspren" or "informationspren" or "scholarspren" or somesuch weren't a thing already. What does "know" mean in this case? Does the spren understand what it means or does it know the words? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: Those who learn the contents automatically bond with that spren How is "learn" defined? Do you have to memorise every word and illustration? Do you have to understand the contents? What happens if the text has room for interpretation? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: The spren will remain bonded to the person as long as they remember the contents of the book, and one can dump memories into the spren like with a coppermind. Depending on what "remember" means here, storing memories seems like a very risky prospect. Not only could you break the bond by storing your memory of what's in the book, but any stored memory should be impossible to retrieve if the bond breaks at all. On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: if a commander gives an order, especially a difficult order, to their soldiers, and their soldiers follow it, they gain the power to do it. The harder they try the more power they gain, though they may not be able to actually achieve their goal, such as if the enemy commander gives a command to their troops to stop them. What's the power source? Is visualisation necessary? If so, does trying to do the thing, but not as the commander thought it would be done, not work? What happens if people are ordered to do something physically impossible, like fly under their own power? Is trying to stop the enemy not pretty much an implicit command on the battlefield? Is there an upper bound or time limit? On 2022-02-06 at 0:01 PM, Ixthos said: The move vibrant the battlefield, the more spilt blood, the more burnt the ground, the stronger their abilities. Is colour drained?  I apologise if I come off as stand-offish, I find things I disagree with engaging.  ¤_¤ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Why? Does it have to involve Intent? Is the effect triggered or always on? How is this different from Fabrials? Presumably the "right metals" would be the sixteen. Why does Hemalurgy remove a part of the spiritweb of the person it strikes? Why can Feruchemists store traits in metal. It would be different from Fabrials in the same way Fabrials are different from the medallions and Elantris's Aon plates. The right metals could be alloys with Inventions metal, so not iron but an iron alloy with the Shardmetal, etc., and the Valour, the willingness to risk danger to try something new, could be the catalyst needed.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I don't think valour is the same as endangering the self needlessly, which reads more like idiocy to me. Gambling with your extremities just seems like a bad idea. Can anyone actually become proficient in this without a high cost of human life and suffering? Yes, because it is about being willing to try, not about needlessly endangering oneself. Tesla worked with extremely high voltage, and there are several stories of scientists and inventors experimenting on themselves - the scientist who proved that stomach ulcers came from bacteria drank a petri dish of them to prove his point, and then cured himself with antibiotics. All invention potentially carries an element of risk, and the risk doesn't need to be physical - its about carrying on despite the risks that actives the power.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: So if you get it wrong you risk increasing their agony for no reward? Yes. Or get a different affect than what as intended.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Why? What kind of effect? Because it was a remix on Hemalurgy, but done for benevolent purposes. The effects could be anything from providing healing to those who come near, increased plant growth, slowed down time, a permanent Soothing or Rioting, an enhancement to the powers of anyone who comes near, or making items in the area invisible based on which are seen as distinct from the environment and which aren't.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Can they choose to move on? Are they bound to the spike/body? Is the body preserved or does the magic have a shelf life? Does being able to interact with the CS follow from witnessing the effect when produced or from entering its area of effect? If the CS is anchored to the spike and can't move on of their own accord, this is a very cruel thing to do. If the effect is permanent (body preserved), the CS can also enjoy such things as everyone they loved dying and their home crumbling, in addition to the mental strain and Intent warping that CS:s experience eventually. If the spike is removed then yes, they can move on. The spike locks the body in stasis. One needs to be close enough to the body to interact with the shadow, so yes, well within the range of the effect. It is, which is why it could also be seen as a mercy, and wise, to remove the spike if the shadow doesn't want to stay. Remember what happened with Kelsier while he was at the Well. Possibly. There are story possibilities for someone who chose to do this and then regretted it, or it being forced on someone. Especially if it becomes like Those Who Walk Away from Omelas, with the suffering of one shadow granting peace to an entire city, and those who find out about it.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I don't like it. "Lolrandom" chaos for the sake of chaos isn't fun. I feel like the Shards should have some underlying, immutable nature, Preservation is always Preservation, Valor is always Valor, Whimsy is always Whimsy. I'd rather see something like a broad-spectrum system, power is always drawn, but the exact way it manifests has variance. So, if we use A-pewter as a base, the exact physical enhancements could vary, like getting more speed and less strength, but the same attributes would be affected each time. I could also see a system stemming from Whimsy as feeling unfinished, something like if Feruchemy had physical speed and memory, but not mental speed and strength. I would also like to say, as someone with both ADHD and BPD, that each fancy is a concrete thing in the moment. I'd rather extrapolate that each system emanating from Whimsy is stable and concrete, but that there's very little consistency between the systems. I also feel that just touching metal would be a far too easy way to access Investiture. That's also a question, do the metals burn off in any of these systems? I agree, and I personally don't think Whimsy is necessarily a chaos for the sake of chaos Shard, though it might be. I think Whimsy is mainly so Brandon can have slightly more bizarre magic systems. Still, it could be a Shard that, over time, becomes more and more erratic. Whimsy could be Wonder, or the joy of childhood, though I don't want to speculate too much into this as I risk adding elements of something from my own writing in. I think Whimsy is a Shard of Emotion, and the emotion of enjoyment and imagination and seeing unexpected possibilities and acting on impulse based on what one feels. That could work, with pewter always being physical, copper always being about detection of investiture (helping or hindering). Also agreed, I actually mentioned that earlier in this thread I believe - comparing it to ecosystem design. (Also, hi  I'm also ADHD) It depends on the nature of the metal - perhaps the metal needs to be near Whimsy's Perpendicularity for a time to get a charge, or you need to wait between touching metals before touching the metal would again affect you. No, or at least not normally, as I wanted to try to do something which wasn't so focused on Ruin, though I suppose the metals persisting is more Preservation.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Isn't this basically AonDor? Sort of, the idea is that each new design is a one-time thing, so if you make a design that produces an effect then you can't reproduce that pattern - its drawn once, so invented, but then making it again isn't inventing but duplicating, and duplicates don't have the power of the original, they just exist, so then someone would try to make a subtle change, or add a new line, but it still would have to fit the core pattern so it couldn't just be random. And it does have to be a story of the enemy's life, and so no two people lived the same life.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: That sounds needlessly restrictive, to the tune of "sorry, we can't help you, R&D hasn't figured out a new healing spell yet." You also have no room to experiment, as each new design that works is instantly used up the moment you draw it. Again, that ties to the idea of each having to be invented - it changes the dynamics of the magic if you can't use it all the time, and the idea being that each effect is in a sense permanent, so once done - and remember, each is a story in this example, so they have to be specific to the person - it lasts indefinitely.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: How is enemy defined? What happens if you do this and the person survives? Why would providing them peace turn them into a CS? Is turning them into a CS not an effect? Why do you get to dictate someone else's emotional state? Is their emotional state permanently altered? They have to have just died or be close to dying, and they have to be someone who you personally hated or disliked or saw as a rival, regardless of their attitudes to you. It kills them instantly if they are still partially alive, but only if you aren't trying to kill them because you hate them, but rather because you do respect them and actually would have preferred they lived so you could go on hating them. It is a very case specific magic. The effect doesn't affect the enemy, they're dead but now immortal as a Cognitive Shadow. The effect could be like the previously mentioned for Scadrial and spikes Mercy, only now the person isn't anchored to their body, they can move around. It doesn't make them permanently peaceful, but rather eases them in with no pain, unlike what happened with Kelsier when he died, feeling the ripping - it is peace in that they die and become a Shadow rather than dying and feeling themselves torn from their bodies or the pain their body was in, then the pull of the Beyond.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: That's a high bar to entry, especially as you have to put it all together before they pass into the Beyond. Also, making someone a CS without their consent isn't merciful. Once you start they don't move Beyond unless you don't complete the drawing - you could actually hold them in that state for as long as you can afford to stay by their corpse with the partially completed effect and not either finish it or dismiss it, like holding your hands in front of you for a day - and these Shadows can choose to go Beyond when they wish, it is simply that they have the option of remaining.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: This sounds like the ruins and artefacts are generated by the magic, rather than being extant. I'm getting strong D&D random sidequest vibes. The ruins predate the current form of the magic, they are from an earlier time with a different form of magic that was modified when their civilisation fell. Well, more general quest fantasy, but yes  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: What determines the symbols? Shouldn't symbols from a different civilisation have their own power, rather than gain new powers from being Indiana Jonesed? It is based on the cognitive perception of the cultures involved, and how the current culture collectively views the previous, and their own relation to the previous. The stones contain a link to the power, so less like batteries and more like wires, but how that power is accessed is based on interfacing the new magic with the old.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I don't think that would work. How does the Cognitive aspect of the object become a spren? What ramifications does this have for the object? What decides if something is interesting? What happens if the thing you make is a standard fabrial? I feel like a bead could not be taken from the Cognitive to the Physical, or that managing that would do something funky. Also, a change in the Physical isn't immediately reflected in the Cognitive. Building a wall won't instantly cause the stones to stop being individual beads in the Cognitive. The reverse is also true, see Dalinar "healing" the statue in Oathbringer. So the object probably wouldn't be "a thing" at the point of creation. How does any element of the Cognitive Realm work? At what point does the matter you eat become the flame someone has in the Cognitive Realm? This is in effect the reverse of what happens to someone's flame when they die, when the flame becomes the bead of a corpse, only it is a bead becoming a flame which can enter the physical realm, or a part of it can. Invention directly observes and decides. Just as spren - lesser spren - can manifest partially in the physical while being in the Cognitive, or as Unmade are between worlds, and as an items bead can be taken from its corresponding location in the Cognitive Realm and moved to another planet - like the Ire fortress's stones - so to can this work for the invention's spren. True, it can't, but when Investiture is involved, Cognitive objects can be affected, see Kelsier and the campfire, manifesting beads, etc. This power is specifically about shorting out that rule and immediately making formerly disperate parts become one in the Cognitive, just like the earlier flame of a person to bead of a corpse example.  1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: What does power mean? Where does the power come from? Is there a maximum effective range? What happens if you make something like a really good chair? How would powering it and controlling it affect it? Power in this sense can include the ability to power their inventions, so the inventor being like a battery - their invention only works for them - though it also could be powers similar to Emotional Allomancy or Mental Feruchemy, including storing memories inside of their journals, which another inventor could use if they get it. In general though, the inventor almost becomes like a copy of what they made, and can do something similar to it. That chair would FLY. AND let you make SPEED BUBBLES. AND produce a Soothing! And it also would be very, very comfortable. Mainly though, the Inventions need to attract Invention's attention, and it is dependent on what the Inventor was trying to do. A chair may attract Invention's attention, but it would have to be different in a significant way from other chairs and do something very novel.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I don't like this, Gravitation isn't actually flight. We are talking about mad science and perception. They couldn't lash others, but I don't see their hair spinning like a rotor. If their invention can fly, they can fly - and Gravitation is flight in the way that all movement through the air with the ability to control how long one remains aloft is flight. Submarines may not swim, but a plane does fly, and a Windrunner can move themselves remain motionless in the air, or travel in any direction they choose. There is little difference between a Windrunner using Gravitation and Superman willing himself to travel through the air.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Would a badly tuned music box, or one playing an ear-worm, let you Riot? ... YES  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I get that this is probably based on the concept of sharing ideas, but I don't really like it. I think any time someone speaks directly into another's mind, there's a Connection between them, so I'm curious how this works mechanically. There are several ways of thinking of telepathy, and one is that of broadcast telepathy, of producing a signal everyone else around you can hear but not being able to hear their thoughts. Like Memorial on Star Trek Voyager, or in a singular case one could argue the Inner Light on Star Trek the Next Generation, with Picard having an entire life - which he lived - beamed into his mind over the course of a few minutes.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I mean, this is basically the Nahel bond. I think it's too similar. This came up in the thread before, but basically Valour feels very similar to Honour to me, which is why in this thread we looked at Valour more as a Norse style warrior focus rather than a knightly one, but either way the idea isn't around swearing oaths or improving the bond but rather the spren hanging around you is because of how you conduct yourself in a specific type of situation, rather than requiring constant actions.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Who judges these qualities? Is there any margin for error, or is being human enough to guarantee that the bond will break at some point? Does the bond breaking hurt the spren? The spren, as with Surgebinding, unless the spren is actually a form of Avatar for a combination of Valour and Mercy, in which case it is an projection of them showing you favour, and so each spren is actually the same being. The bond only breaks if someone feels fear and chooses not to at least try to fight it, or sees someone begging for mercy who clearly needs it, and refuses. No, the bond is entirely in the power of the spren. It isn't meshing its soul with yours like in Surgebinding, but rather actively projecting power into you, and then it chooses to either continue or to stop.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I wouldn't be suprised if "knowledgespren" or "learningspren" or "informationspren" or "scholarspren" or somesuch weren't a thing already. What does "know" mean in this case? Does the spren understand what it means or does it know the words? That would make sense. I wonder if it ties to Lightweaver memory capabilities. The spren contains a copy of the portion of the cognitive component of the person who wrote it, so they understand it to the same extent the person writing it did. The spren literally contains a copy of a small part of the person who wrote the words.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: How is "learn" defined? Do you have to memorise every word and illustration? Do you have to understand the contents? What happens if the text has room for interpretation? It relates to long term and short term memory. Anything in short term memory will produce a small connection, but not enough to form a bond. Once it becomes long term memory - even if it gets harder to access - the bond forms, but its strength weakens the less the person is able to quickly and accurately recall it, though if the memory is completely gone the bond is gone. The bond isn't a scaler, but a vector - so someone who remembers the words but doesn't understand them has a strong bond but can't make much use of it, while someone who can barely remember the words but understands the meaning will have a weaker bond, but can make much greater use of it - think of how Kenton could only control one ribbon of sand, but could use it to greater effect than other Sand Masters.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Depending on what "remember" means here, storing memories seems like a very risky prospect. Not only could you break the bond by storing your memory of what's in the book, but any stored memory should be impossible to retrieve if the bond breaks at all. Yes, it is very risky, though there is a natural resistance of trying to store those particular memories, as it is like trying to fit the frame of a door through the door itself - the bond is facilitated by those memories, so trying to push them into it actively interferes with the storing of the memories. There are some memories that may be important to give full context and understanding to the memories that link to the spren, but if they go in then the bond remains strong but is harder to use, as mentioned in the previous paragraph.   2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: What's the power source? Is visualisation necessary? If so, does trying to do the thing, but not as the commander thought it would be done, not work? What happens if people are ordered to do something physically impossible, like fly under their own power? Is trying to stop the enemy not pretty much an implicit command on the battlefield? Is there an upper bound or time limit? The power source is ambient Investiture in the Cognitive Realm that pools in the souls of those who lead and those who follow - it is polarised, though a Sergeant would have both for example, as they both lead and follow. It is based on perception, so if the soldier thinks this is the order they were given, and the commander doesn't know they aren't doing what he wants, the power will still flow. It goes from the commander to merge with the power in their souls, and this empowers them. Once done they have to wait a while for the Investiture to return. If they truly think they can do it, and if the soldiers believe in their commander enough, they may fly, though that depends on if, to obey the commander before to follow another, more manageable command, they fly. So if they know they can fly to achieve an order their commander gave before, they will fly if he tells them to again. It scales to the difficulty of the situation. Telling soldiers to attack the others - especially if you have the advantage - doesn't evoke valour, and the power also isn't always present, it depends on how much Investiture is in the environment and pooling in their souls. When you see the enemy soldiers suddenly displaying this power it usually is because your side had the advantage, so when you tell your soldiers to stop them they may gain some power - as they are now facing a more powerful opponent - but they won't gain as much as the enemy who was at a disadvantage before. And again, gaining power may not be enough to achieve the goal anyway, so you have to be at a disadvantage to gain the power, and even then you may not be able to overcome it. It depends on how much power pooled and how much is being expended. A long battle would have given a lot of time for power to pool, but a difficult order will use it more quickly.  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Is colour drained? In this case no, the colour is more about drawing in more ambient power to the location  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I apologise if I come off as stand-offish, I find things I disagree with engaging. (incoming joke) "Oh yeah?!? While your FACE is-!"  2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: ¤_¤ "... oh."   It's cool  i appreciate the questions. Your first few were a little off putting, but the rest was mostly fine, and a lot of those were very good questions. I enjoyed engaging with you  I look forwards to your responses to these. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benkinsky Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 19 hours ago, Ixthos said: Ahhh, nice, the axis mundi of the world, like how the Greeks say Mount Olympus, a place the culture or culture's know is sacred, and which actually has spirits waiting there. yup, exactly. It's both a sacred place and a real place, but like Mount Olympus it's difficult to venture to and not many people would dare to. 19 hours ago, Ixthos said: actual cultural hero actually takes possession of the weapon, becoming it. Your sword actually has the soul of this hero your people know, who died in battle, and has deemed you worthy to wield him in combat, to lend you his strength. yes! I could imagine that similar to the returned, there is an "end" to their existence, where most of them are around to fight as Valkyries (as you said, which is a very cool idea) in case something happens and then perish afterwards, fully released, but sometimes one of them will imbue an artefact. Wonder if they'll stick around indefinitely or maybe there's an "end" to that too, something that makes it so the shade has to decide this goal is worth it. Â 19 hours ago, Ixthos said: those dying but not yet dead taken by them. that makes me think of another scary Mercy concept, some kind of posession where if you were to die anyway, a Mercy shade might posess you/do something to you, and "mercyfully" grants you the chance to serve some more. It would be not quite you, but still somewhat you. Maybe culturally it's regarded as a great honour, but it's still kind of terrifying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 @Benkinsky  this is giving me all sorts of story ideas!  2 minutes ago, Benkinsky said: that makes me think of another scary Mercy concept, some kind of posession where if you were to die anyway, a Mercy shade might posess you/do something to you, and "mercyfully" grants you the chance to serve some more. It would be not quite you, but still somewhat you. Maybe culturally it's regarded as a great honour, but it's still kind of terrifying. Oh, that's creepy! Almost like Returned, but clear to all the person walking around isn't really the original, but just enough of who they were to sometimes make you forget, and is a little too friendly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benkinsky Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022  13 minutes ago, Ixthos said: Oh, that's creepy! Almost like Returned, but clear to all the person walking around isn't really the original, but just enough of who they were to sometimes make you forget, and is a little too friendly. yesss, exactly. And it's not even that they died and returned, they just kind of stopped being themselves, but you didn't get closure of a Funeral or anything. And they're mostly themselves, they might even exist that they are (Mercy is so "nice" to let their conciousness remain), but it's weird, and sometimes you forget, but they personality is somewhat different, and maybe at some point they feel a calling to go somewhere, do something, whatever, that is certainly not them but the godly being that moves their body. 12 minutes ago, Ixthos said:  this is giving me all sorts of story ideas! Yeah, same. Wish i wasn't busy with Exams and Term Papers at the moment, I might get to writing. I feel like there would be another magic that Valor would be powering aside from just the Imbued Artefacts, that's more like the Shardblades-cutting-everything to Surgebinding, not the main thing but also a thing. Something not too big, something you need a "snapping" for too - only it's not done to you, you "Snap" by doing something like Jumping off a cliff or something like that. Seriously, I'm already thinking what kind of Era could be fun for this. 1. Olden days? Not much technology, for sure Swords and bows for fighting, Valors Magic system isn't super common, and Shades are super rare too. Could be a story about the new god being fairly new, cults around it, maybe the story of the first Shadow or one of the first to come into existence. 2. Later times, but not super technologically progressed yet. Some kind of war going on and our protagonist goes on a quest to get the power to stop it/stop the destruction of her home/whatever, and either it's simple and she gets what she needs, or, what I would find even more cool, she gets an artefact blessed not (just by Valor, but either by both or Mercy, and it's a shield. Maybe both, tbh. The perfect blend of Bravery to get into the action and Forgiveness. 3. Modern days. Protagonist: a Journalist or Reporter. certainly a brave profession, wouldn't you agree? especially if you're the one trying to expose that one of the World leaders has been "touched" (a Mercy shade got them) and is no longer fully themselves. The artefact: a camera or something like that. Could be a fun duo with some old-timey warrior ghost that has to deal with the modern world and them having lots of fun conversations.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 5 hours ago, Benkinsky said: Seriously, I'm already thinking what kind of Era could be fun for this. 1. Olden days? Not much technology, for sure Swords and bows for fighting, Valors Magic system isn't super common, and Shades are super rare too. Could be a story about the new god being fairly new, cults around it, maybe the story of the first Shadow or one of the first to come into existence. 2. Later times, but not super technologically progressed yet. Some kind of war going on and our protagonist goes on a quest to get the power to stop it/stop the destruction of her home/whatever, and either it's simple and she gets what she needs, or, what I would find even more cool, she gets an artefact blessed not (just by Valor, but either by both or Mercy, and it's a shield. Maybe both, tbh. The perfect blend of Bravery to get into the action and Forgiveness. 3. Modern days. Protagonist: a Journalist or Reporter. certainly a brave profession, wouldn't you agree? especially if you're the one trying to expose that one of the World leaders has been "touched" (a Mercy shade got them) and is no longer fully themselves. The artefact: a camera or something like that. Could be a fun duo with some old-timey warrior ghost that has to deal with the modern world and them having lots of fun conversations. Hmmm ... they all certainly do have potential  they also allow exploring how cultural views on valour and mercy change over time, and what is and isn't seen as valorous. 1. I like that, the first people to be influenced by Valour, and the forging of the first weapons or items as well, and the foundational myths that later cultures use, so heroes of that time become seen as deities or legends later. 2. To add to that, this can also be when Mercy or an Avatar shows up, changing the magic or adding a new one in, and then factoring in the idea of valour being more complex than just bravery in battle, but also bravery in moral choices. I like the idea of the artefact she gets being something new, the first item to not just be exclusively of Valour but of Valour and Mercy, and the battle she thought she had to face with it turns out to be a different one than she thought, with her defeating whoever is attacking her people requires showing mercy too, and perhaps winning over other tribes or peoples who her people had previously been antagonistic towards, and the culture starting to move more towards a one of a more unified culture - still tension, but also the idea your opponents aren't just going to attack you for glory 3. Yes! The idea that Valour is now seen in the context of all possible paths someone in the culture can have, and the risk and way of fighting it isn't physical. The idea this is a threat from mercy when the culture owes a large part of its existence to Mercy can also add extra dynamics, as the issue then isn't that Mercy is always a good thing, especially if someone sees killing someone who doesn't want to die as a Mercy. And I really like the idea of an old warrior ghost who has to adjust to this new way of life the people have, especially if they are form the pre-Mercy days, so one who says Valour doesn't need Mercy, look at the threat we are facing, it is from Mercy! But then seeing that it isn't just one or the other, but both that are needed. And the ghost can also - especially if ghosts are more rare - let the Journalist, who has their own ideas of what the past was like, see that the past wasn't either as bad or as good as they supposed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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